Piercing Immunity to Mind-Affecting

[martixy]

Is there some way to penetrate such an immunity and if so, how?

Alternatively, is there a way to remove this trait(when not caused by a spell or similar ability, and thus not subject to a dispel).

[Psyren]

3.5 or Pathfinder?

Some of the options available are contingent on creature type, so if there's a specific creature you're trying to defeat that can be helpful information as well.

[martixy]

3.5, though now I'm interested in what the difference in PF is.

It's not about specific creatures, but rather, retaining the use of a particular power in higher-level play.

[Necroticplague]

Song of the Dead lets you overcome undead inherent immunity to Mind-effecting spells.

The Ability Rip spell can remove someone's immunity to mind-effeecting for a bit.

[Crake]

It depends on what the source of the immunity is, and whether you need to be able to do it in combat, or if you're trying to use these spells against a helpless foe that you've captured or something. Trait removal is a long casting spell but it can pretty much cover anything you need against living creatures, as long as it's source is a supernatural or extraordinary ability. If it's a type based immunity then a baleful polymorph will do the trick (use polymorph any object vs undead and constructs). That just leaves plants, who have a type based immunity to both polymorph and mind affecting AND nonlethal, so you can't knock them out and then use polymorph on them in their sleep as a willing target. Plants, I have no answer for you. Pathfinder has a bunch of metamagic feats that let you use mind affecting spells on various creature types that are normally immune, but don't know for 3.5

[Psyren]

3.5, though now I'm interested in what the difference in PF is.

In Pathfinder, some of the common sources of immunity were nerfed. For instance, Mind Blank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mind-blank) no longer grants immunity to mind-affecting, and Protection from Evil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil) (soft immunity, i.e. suppression) now only works against effects from evil sources. Therefore the best alignment for an enchantment/illusion-using PC is True Neutral. Paizo also took the "ongoing control" guideline from 3.5's sage advice and made it RAW, so Pro:Evil won't stop "control-less compulsions" like Confusion or Sleep.

There are additional ways to pierce mind-affecting immunity also. To beat oozes and vermin, there is Coaxing Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/coaxing-spell-metamagic) For Undead, there is Threnodic Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) Both of these are available as rods as well. For Constructs, there are the Control Construct and Apparent Master spells.

[gooddragon1]

It depends on what the source of the immunity is, and whether you need to be able to do it in combat, or if you're trying to use these spells against a helpless foe that you've captured or something. Trait removal is a long casting spell but it can pretty much cover anything you need against living creatures, as long as it's source is a supernatural or extraordinary ability. If it's a type based immunity then a baleful polymorph will do the trick (use polymorph any object vs undead and constructs). That just leaves plants, who have a type based immunity to both polymorph and mind affecting AND nonlethal, so you can't knock them out and then use polymorph on them in their sleep as a willing target. Plants, I have no answer for you. Pathfinder has a bunch of metamagic feats that let you use mind affecting spells on various creature types that are normally immune, but don't know for 3.5

Plant Domain. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#plantDomain)

The control plants spell, command plants spell, or the domain power.

[Andion Isurand]

Complete Mage, pg. 77

Check out the adaptation for the Nightmare Spinner class.

I would consider limiting that ability's uses or have it involve a check of some kind...

[Crake]

Plant Domain. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#plantDomain)

The control plants spell, command plants spell, or the domain power.

Except that's not exactly an answer to the question being asked. Those don't pierce immunity to mind-affecting, they circumvent it by not being mind affecting abilities.

[gooddragon1]

Except that's not exactly an answer to the question being asked. Those don't pierce immunity to mind-affecting, they circumvent it by not being mind affecting abilities.


...so you can't knock them out and then use polymorph on them in their sleep as a willing target...

Now you've got a willing target. I'm not sure why he wanted one (since it's got immunity to polymorph willing or not), but there's the willing target for whatever it needed to be willing for.

[Sliver]

If they have Mind Blank, Shatter Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shatterMindBlank.htm) would work...

[AmberVael]

If they have Mind Blank, Shatter Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shatterMindBlank.htm) would work...

Not that you should ever choose to use Shatter Mind Blank over Dispel Magic/Psionics.

[Svata]

In Pathfinder, some of the common sources of immunity were nerfed. For instance, Mind Blank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mind-blank)

Oh gods, why did they make it a resistance bonus. Whyyyy? At that level you'll likely have a cloak of resistance +5, so it effectively only gives +3 against mind-affecting. That's terrible for an eighth level spell. It should have been untyped, honestly.

[Psyren]

Oh gods, why did they make it a resistance bonus. Whyyyy? At that level you'll likely have a cloak of resistance +5, so it effectively only gives +3 against mind-affecting. That's terrible for an eighth level spell. It should have been untyped, honestly.

Definitely agreed, though it does make life easier for enchanters.

I would have probably made it an insight or competence bonus if not untyped.

[Slithery D]

The immunity to divination is still pretty amazing.

[elonin]

Have I missed something? Mind Blank is a personal spell. That being the case how does it prevent divination spells?

[martixy]

Have I missed something? Mind Blank is a personal spell. That being the case how does it prevent divination spells?

Cuz it says so?

Also, not Personal, Close.

Ability Rip and Trait Removal are kind of non-combat spells though.

[marphod]

Now you've got a willing target. I'm not sure why he wanted one (since it's got immunity to polymorph willing or not), but there's the willing target for whatever it needed to be willing for.

To get it unconscious, and therefore willing, Corporeal Instability should work; it isn't a polymorph effect, and can render it unconscious (0 Wisdom from Drain). Still immune to Polymorph, though.

If you could get a Spell Glyph to contain a 9th level spell, hit it with Greater Visage of The Deity (non-polymorph type change to outsider)

Are there other non-polymorph effects that change type?

[Psyren]

Have I missed something? Mind Blank is a personal spell. That being the case how does it prevent divination spells?

It's not personal - you're thinking of the Personal Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPersonal.htm) psionic power.

It protects you from divinations by you simply not showing up "on screen."


To get it unconscious, and therefore willing, Corporeal Instability should work; it isn't a polymorph effect, and can render it unconscious (0 Wisdom from Drain). Still immune to Polymorph, though.

If you could get a Spell Glyph to contain a 9th level spell, hit it with Greater Visage of The Deity (non-polymorph type change to outsider)

Are there other non-polymorph effects that change type?

Wish - though that requires a ritual from SS and is explicitly unsafe.

Miracle can literally do anything, provided your DM says yes.

[Mato]

Ability Rip and Trait Removal are kind of non-combat spells though.Not to an arcane archer.

[The Viscount]

Dread Witch technically only trumps immunity to fear, but if a creature was immune to fear by virtue of being immune to mind affecting, the dread witch could punch through it when using fear spells and effects (unless I'm wrong, in which case someone will correct me).

[Crake]

Not to an arcane archer.

I didn't realise those spells were area spells?


Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow.


Dread Witch technically only trumps immunity to fear, but if a creature was immune to fear by virtue of being immune to mind affecting, the dread witch could punch through it when using fear spells and effects (unless I'm wrong, in which case someone will correct me).

There was actually a long thread on this argument, and it was, after a lot of searching and arguing, revealed that only fear attacks are mind affecting by default, and that there were fear effects out there that were not defined as mind affecting, thus that immunity to mind affecting did not actually grant you immunity to fear, and thus the witch's ability to pierce fear immunity did not also pierce immunity to mind affecting.

[Jack_Simth]

Is there some way to penetrate such an immunity and if so, how?Limited Wish, Wish, and/or Miracle to duplicate the spell in question. Why?

Well, spells that duplicate the effects of other spells only inherit what they don't overwrite. As an example, Charm Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) only lists the duration in the duration line of the spell, it's not mentioned in the rest of the description, and that overrides the hour/level duration from Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm). Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle? They've got their own School and Descriptor lines. So if you cast Limited Wish to duplicate Charm Monster, the net result is not mind-affecting, as the tag isn't inherited.

Expensive, though.

[Monktools]

Metafaculty. :smallcool:

[Mato]

I didn't realise those spells were area spells?There are a couple effects to turn a touch spell into a ray and from there you use ray coning (dragon annual #5) to change it into a 30ft cone.

And since I'm explaining the trick, let me add if you are using reach spell you'll also need to pick up some form of cost reduction. So the feat tax isn't tiny but it's a very potent trick that makes up for it.

[Crake]

Limited Wish, Wish, and/or Miracle to duplicate the spell in question. Why?

Well, spells that duplicate the effects of other spells only inherit what they don't overwrite. As an example, Charm Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) only lists the duration in the duration line of the spell, it's not mentioned in the rest of the description, and that overrides the hour/level duration from Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm). Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle? They've got their own School and Descriptor lines. So if you cast Limited Wish to duplicate Charm Monster, the net result is not mind-affecting, as the tag isn't inherited.

Expensive, though.

What part of "duplicate the effects of a spell" implies inheritance. The spell doesnt say "acts like the duplicated spell except where noted" like your example of charm monster does. You are duplicating the effect of the spell as if it was that spell itself being cast, with the noted exception of the spell level being that of limited wish, or wish, 7th or 9th respectively.

If you're thinking of using the same logic of the wish ability to transport people not being teleportation, that's not the same thing, because it's not duplicating a spell effect, it's creating it's own effect, and neither that effect, nor the spell itself is tagged as teleportation, which is why that works.

[The Viscount]

There was actually a long thread on this argument, and it was, after a lot of searching and arguing, revealed that only fear attacks are mind affecting by default, and that there were fear effects out there that were not defined as mind affecting, thus that immunity to mind affecting did not actually grant you immunity to fear, and thus the witch's ability to pierce fear immunity did not also pierce immunity to mind affecting.

I had suspected something like that might be the case. What is a fear attack?

[Jack_Simth]

What part of "duplicate the effects of a spell" implies inheritance. The spell doesnt say "acts like the duplicated spell except where noted" like your example of charm monster does. You are duplicating the effect of the spell as if it was that spell itself being cast, with the noted exception of the spell level being that of limited wish, or wish, 7th or 9th respectively.

If you're thinking of using the same logic of the wish ability to transport people not being teleportation, that's not the same thing, because it's not duplicating a spell effect, it's creating it's own effect, and neither that effect, nor the spell itself is tagged as teleportation, which is why that works.

So if you cast Miracle to duplicate Regenerate, does it take three full rounds to cast?

Miracle makes no mention of the casting time, other than the 'Casting Time' line (one standard action). Regenerate has a different one (3 rounds). Likewise, Miracle makes no mention of the school and descriptor effects, except that it has it's own school and descriptor line (Evocation) compared to Regenerate's school and descriptor line (Conjouration(Healing)). It's the same chain of logic, regardless of which direction you go. If Miracle (Slay Living) is stopped by a Death Ward, then Miracle(Regenerate) should take three rounds to cast.

[Crake]

I had suspected something like that might be the case. What is a fear attack?

I can't remember exactly to be honest. I think in general if a character, creature, or trap is causing the fear effect, it's likely a fear attack. The rules state that "all fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects" so it was clear that all fear attacks are mind affecting, and that all fear attacks were fear effects, but the question arose of whether there was actually anything out there that didn't qualify as an attack, but was a fear effect. Phobias were brought up as an example of a fear effect that wasn't a fear attack, and also not called out as mind-affecting, thus the thread finally concluded that immunity to mind affecting did not equal immunity to fear, since a wizard who has a phobia of say spiders would still run away in fear from any spider he saw, even with mind-blank up.