Caster Level 5 by Character Level 2

[Nifft]

Please help me improve this build.

The goal here is an early-entry Anima Mage with no more than one level of Wizard and one level of Binder. All other levels ought to be prestige classes.

The current build is Gnome, which seems great, but I'm open to other options. The build uses a Trait (spellgifted); not using a Trait would be better.

Ability scores (elite array):
Str: 4 (8 -2 race -2 flaw)
Dex: 10
Con: 16 (14 +2 race)
Int: 15
Wis: 13
Cha: 12

Level 1: Binder 1
* L1 Feat: Earth Sense (RoS)
* Flaw Feat (vulnerable): Heighten Spell
* Flaw Feat (pathetic Str): Earth Spell (RoS)
* Trait: Spellgifted (Illusion)
* Skills (2+2)x4: Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 4.

Level 2: Wizard 1 - ACF: Domain Wizard (UA), School Mastery (Dragon #357)
* Skills (2+2): Knowledge (the planes) 4.
* Feat: Scribe Scroll
* Domain: Illusion
* School Mastery: Illusion
- L0: (all)
- L1 (x5): charm person, silent image,
- Domain: ghost sound, disguise self

Level 3: Mindbender 1
* L3 Feat: Improved Binding (ToM)
* Skills (2+2):

Level 4: Anima Mage 1
* Goal! Yay!

- - -

Early entry tricks:
- Earth Spell + Heighten Spell: When prepared in a 1st level slot, this makes Ghost Sound a 2nd level spell. This ought to meet the spellcasting prereq for Anima Mage.
- The above spell (heightened ghost sound) also has its caster level increased by Earth Spell. It's in the Domain, and it's in the School Mastery, so that's a total of +3 caster levels. With the Trait (spellgifted), that's +4 caster levels, for a total of +5. This ought to meet the caster level prereq for Mindbender.
- Binder gets all four class skills necessary for Mindbender entry, so that's first level.
- Anima Mage needs Intimidate (which overlaps with the Mindbender prereq), and Knowledge (the planes) 4, which the Wizard level can handle.

Issues:
- Uses a Trait which negatively impacts all non-Illusion spellcasting. Granted, it's a Gnome, so non-Illusion spellcasting is less important than usual, but still.
- Level 3 feat isn't being used for Mindsight. That's painful. Worse, I'm not sure where to put Mindsight, since I want Extend Spell and Persistent Spell too, and I need Spell Focus (Illusion) before level 14, and I need Arcane Disciple (Luck) for maximum Gnomic impact. If Mindsight is never going to happen, is it a bad idea to take Mindbender? What else could go in that level slot?
- Binder 1 / Wizard 1 / Mindbender 1 / Anima Mage 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 - this build only goes up to level 18. What should I do with the last two levels?

Thanks!

[AvatarVecna]

The problem here is that, AFAIK, being able to cast a spell at CL 5 is not the same thing as having CL 5. Granted, I've never looked into the Caster Level rules that deeply, so it's possible this works, and it only seems like it doesn't.

EDIT: Also, since this appears to be a theurgy build, I might suggest taking either "Uncanny Trickster" or "Legacy Champion" after Anima Mage 10; both classes let you act as if you'd taken another level in a previous class for the purpose of class abilities and spellcasting and the like; in essence, it lets you take additional levels of your theurgy class before you go epic.

Of course, it's not every level that's like that; Uncanny Trickster doesn't get it at level 1, and Legacy Champion gets that feature at 8/10 levels (and also doesn't get it at lvl 1).

[Rebel7284]

Male lesser Drow.

Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 1/Binder 1/ :D

Alternatively:
(probably human for extra feat)
Wizard 1/Binder 1/Master Specialist 1

[AvatarVecna]

Male lesser Drow.

Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 1/Binder 1/ :D

Alternatively:

Wizard 1/Binder 1/Master Specialist 1

Both of these solutions work, and they avoid the CL issue that Mindbender had. Well done.

[Nifft]

The problem here is that, AFAIK, being able to cast a spell at CL 5 is not the same thing as having CL 5. Granted, I've never looked into the Caster Level rules that deeply, so it's possible this works, and it only seems like it doesn't.

EDIT: Also, since this appears to be a theurgy build, I might suggest taking either "Uncanny Trickster" or "Legacy Champion" after Anima Mage 10; both classes let you act as if you'd taken another level in a previous class for the purpose of class abilities and spellcasting and the like; in essence, it lets you take additional levels of your theurgy class before you go epic.

Of course, it's not every level that's like that; Uncanny Trickster doesn't get it at level 1, and Legacy Champion gets that feature at 8/10 levels (and also doesn't get it at lvl 1). I think the early entry trick works, but if someone has an explanation for why it doesn't (or a confirmation that it does), then I'm very interested.

Regarding Uncanny Trickster: that's a nice idea. Over 3 levels, it gives 2/2 (if it stacks with a PrC). So each class is 1 behind, but that's still potentially decent. That gets hm to Effective Binder Level 13, which (in combo with Improved Binding) is enough for level 7 vestiges. Still, the one lost level of Wizard kinda hurts.


Male lesser Drow.

Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 1/Binder 1/ :D

Alternatively:
(probably human for extra feat)
Wizard 1/Binder 1/Master Specialist 1 Can you explain which early-entry tricks you're using for these? Or just name them in a way that I can search for?

Thanks!

A Human could get into Anima Mage by level 3... he could take Improved Binding as his human bonus feat, and use the same tricks shown here (but presumably with a different specialization, since Illusion isn't nearly as world-breaking in the hands of a mere human).

[Aegis013]

If your DM allows something a little silly (but not necessarily illegal), you may be able to enter Anima Mage at level 2.

Human or Strongheart halfling because you need all the feats.
Martial Wizard 1 with 2 flaws. That gives you 4 feats and a fighter bonus feat.

The four feats are Precocious Apprentice, which lets you cast a lvl 2 arcane spell, regardless of your level. Any metamagic feat with no prerequisites. Bind vestige and the improved one to get the binding necessary. Then for your fighter bonus feat, select Martial Study from ToB, pick Devoted Spirit to get Intimidate as a class skill, and since you don't have sufficient IL to learn any maneuvers, you don't get one. That's the silly part, I'm AFB ATM, but as I recall, the feat has no prerequisites, only the maneuver benefit within the feat does.

Alternatively, ask if you can get an apprentice feat as your fighter bonus feat and grab one that gives intimidate.

That should let you meet all the prerequisites for anima mage and enter it as your second level.

[Nifft]

If your DM allows something a little silly (but not necessarily illegal), you may be able to enter Anima Mage at level 2.

Human or Strongheart halfling because you need all the feats.
Martial Wizard 1 with 2 flaws. That gives you 4 feats and a fighter bonus feat.

The four feats are Precocious Apprentice, which lets you cast a lvl 2 arcane spell, regardless of your level. Any metamagic feat with no prerequisites. Bind vestige and the improved one to get the binding necessary. Then for your fighter bonus feat, select Martial Study from ToB, pick Devoted Spirit to get Intimidate as a class skill, and since you don't have sufficient IL to learn any maneuvers, you don't get one. That's the silly part, I'm AFB ATM, but as I recall, the feat has no prerequisites, only the maneuver benefit within the feat does.

Alternatively, ask if you can get an apprentice feat as your fighter bonus feat and grab one that gives intimidate.

That should let you meet all the prerequisites for anima mage and enter it as your second level.

IMHO the even sillier part is where you end up in Anima Mage without a Soul Binding class feature ... so you don't get half of the benefit of the class.

[Red Rubber Band]

Can you explain which early-entry tricks you're using for these? Or just name them in a way that I can search for?

Drow Paragon to get Intimidate and* an extra level in Wizard without getting an extra level of Wizard.

Master Specialist via Precocious Apprentice for an extra level in Wizard without getting an extra level of Wizard.

Edit: Getting feats mixed up. Now getting classes mixed up. Sigh.

*Derp, Binder.

Do you need to go Mindbender? Because it seems that was the problem area.

[Endarire]

What about taking Mindbender after some Anima Mage levels so you qualify with less hassle?

Get a masterwork holy symbol (Complete Champion 133) for a +1 Illusion caster level.

[Sagetim]

Just...in general I'm pretty sure that caster levels don't work that way. And that has no real impact on meeting the anima mage requirements. The requirements are 4 intimidate, 4 knowledge (the planes), any metamagic feat, Ability to cast second level spells, and ability to cast second level vestiges. So while Precocious apprentice lets you cast One second level spell, I could see a dm nitpicking and saying that's not the ability to cast second level spells. That's a nitpick though. If you're going to side step binder levels, then you would want to go for Bind Vestige (no requirements) and Improved Bind Vestige (only requirement is Bind Vestige). But do bear in mind that you're going to have problems binding vestiges and you can't suppress their sign at all, because you don't have the two levels of Binder necessary to do that.

So, if the GM is willing to let you go ahead with Precocious Apprentice, you can either meet the binding requirement with two feats, or with a level of binder on a feat granting level and picking up Improved Binding (which adds 2 to your effective binder level when binding vestiges). I would suggest fitting at least a second binder level into the build somewhere, so you can hide your vestige sign. Because that crap is a dead 'smite on sight' giveaway for witch hunters and the like. So let's say you went the drow route:

1 wizard/1 drow paragon would apparently get you the intimidate you need, which lets you jump into anima mage starting at 3 (and that's insane). However, after reading Soul Binding I think that's a bad plan. It's a bad plan because you are going to lose the benefits of Soul Binding and Improved Soul Binding on the first level of Anima Mage (the feats will not stack with actual binder levels, and anima mage gives you actual binder levels). So let's look at an alternate option: 1 wizard/1 binder. This puts you one level away from Binder 2 at any given time, so if you need to start hiding your vestiges regularly you can dip out of anima mage to have another binder level at your next level up.

Now if you go Wizard 1/Binder 1 you only need 3 feats: Precocious Apprentice, Improved Binding, and any metamagic feat. At level 12 you'll be a wizard 1/binder 1/ anima mage 10. You will be effective wizard level 11 for spells per day, and you'll be effective binder level 13 for what vestiges you can bind. Your main problems are that you'll be kind of MAD when it comes to your abilities. Binder abilities are mostly keyed to charisma, if any stat, while wizard casting is int based. Now, if you can find an alternate class feature to drop scribe scroll or a familiar for a metamagic feat, you could actually pull this build off without any flaws at all. Another potential alternate is that if you go sorcerer, you can focus on charisma. By focusing on charisma you would get higher spell dc's, higher bound powers dcs, more spells per day, a better intimidate check, and easier binding checks.

By level 20, you'll probably want to aim at maxing out your arcane casting. By that point you could pick up a variety of prestige classes, Geometer has some useful spellbook tricks (which may not be an issue, depending on your DM). You'll still need some more arcane casting before you could get any Archmage. If you're still interested in mind bender by then, you could take one level of that as your level 12, thus locking up the feat you were talking about as your level 12 feat. Then 13 would be anima mage 10, 14 could be a second binder level, and 15 to 20 could be wizard or what have you.

[Rebel7284]

Male lesser Drow.

Wizard 1/Drow Paragon 1/Binder 1/ :D

Alternatively:
(probably human for extra feat)
Wizard 1/Binder 1/Master Specialist 1


Can you explain which early-entry tricks you're using for these? Or just name them in a way that I can search for?

Thanks!


I am just trying to meet your goal with the least resources possible.


The goal here is an early-entry Anima Mage with no more than one level of Wizard and one level of Binder. All other levels ought to be prestige classes.

So in the case of Drow Paragon, the ONLY point of using it is that it
a) has no prerequisites
b) is a prestige class
c) advances Wizard casting.
Some people pointed out it also gives intimidate, but that wasn't even on my radar. I guess you can also be a full Drow with LA buyoff active and get actual benefits out of it.

In case of Master Specialist, it requires a change to a specialist Wizard and Spell Focus, but besides that you can qualify for it by level 3 using the same trick to cast level 2 spells that you are already using for Anima Mage entry (earth sense->earth spell).

[Endarire]

What about going Sorcerer instead of Wizard for less MAD?

[Nifft]

Drow Paragon to get Intimidate and* an extra level in Wizard without getting an extra level of Wizard. Oh, sure. Yeah that's legal. It's not a Gnome so it's going to need a different plan than Illusion + Earth Spell.


Master Specialist via Precocious Apprentice for an extra level in Wizard without getting an extra level of Wizard. That would require being a Specialist, of course... and it would eat a feat for Spell Focus. I think a Human could do it, but of course a human could get into Anima Mage at level 3 instead of using Master Specialist.


What about taking Mindbender after some Anima Mage levels so you qualify with less hassle?

Get a masterwork holy symbol (Complete Champion 133) for a +1 Illusion caster level. Oh, items, yeah. Hmm. There are some gloves that add another +2, right? (But only to a level 1 spell, and only 3/day.) Is there some consensus on using items to meet PrC prereqs?

The main point of Mindbender is that it's easy to enter, good for 1 level, and compatible with Gnomes -- and a gnome needs to hit level 3 for the feat before he can get into Anima Mage. It's certainly not necessary to the build.

Thanks, everyone!

[Nifft]

Just...in general I'm pretty sure that caster levels don't work that way. And that has no real impact on meeting the anima mage requirements. The requirements are 4 intimidate, 4 knowledge (the planes), any metamagic feat, Ability to cast second level spells, and ability to cast second level vestiges. So while Precocious apprentice lets you cast One second level spell, I could see a dm nitpicking and saying that's not the ability to cast second level spells. That's a nitpick though. If you're going to side step binder levels, then you would want to go for Bind Vestige (no requirements) and Improved Bind Vestige (only requirement is Bind Vestige). But do bear in mind that you're going to have problems binding vestiges and you can't suppress their sign at all, because you don't have the two levels of Binder necessary to do that.

So, if the GM is willing to let you go ahead with Precocious Apprentice, you can either meet the binding requirement with two feats, or with a level of binder on a feat granting level and picking up Improved Binding (which adds 2 to your effective binder level when binding vestiges). I would suggest fitting at least a second binder level into the build somewhere, so you can hide your vestige sign. Because that crap is a dead 'smite on sight' giveaway for witch hunters and the like. So let's say you went the drow route:

1 wizard/1 drow paragon would apparently get you the intimidate you need, which lets you jump into anima mage starting at 3 (and that's insane). However, after reading Soul Binding I think that's a bad plan. It's a bad plan because you are going to lose the benefits of Soul Binding and Improved Soul Binding on the first level of Anima Mage (the feats will not stack with actual binder levels, and anima mage gives you actual binder levels). So let's look at an alternate option: 1 wizard/1 binder. This puts you one level away from Binder 2 at any given time, so if you need to start hiding your vestiges regularly you can dip out of anima mage to have another binder level at your next level up.

Now if you go Wizard 1/Binder 1 you only need 3 feats: Precocious Apprentice, Improved Binding, and any metamagic feat. At level 12 you'll be a wizard 1/binder 1/ anima mage 10. You will be effective wizard level 11 for spells per day, and you'll be effective binder level 13 for what vestiges you can bind. Your main problems are that you'll be kind of MAD when it comes to your abilities. Binder abilities are mostly keyed to charisma, if any stat, while wizard casting is int based. Now, if you can find an alternate class feature to drop scribe scroll or a familiar for a metamagic feat, you could actually pull this build off without any flaws at all. Another potential alternate is that if you go sorcerer, you can focus on charisma. By focusing on charisma you would get higher spell dc's, higher bound powers dcs, more spells per day, a better intimidate check, and easier binding checks.

By level 20, you'll probably want to aim at maxing out your arcane casting. By that point you could pick up a variety of prestige classes, Geometer has some useful spellbook tricks (which may not be an issue, depending on your DM). You'll still need some more arcane casting before you could get any Archmage. If you're still interested in mind bender by then, you could take one level of that as your level 12, thus locking up the feat you were talking about as your level 12 feat. Then 13 would be anima mage 10, 14 could be a second binder level, and 15 to 20 could be wizard or what have you. Yep, that's the standard thinking.

Here's my insight:

Instead of Precocious Apprentice, which is a throw-away feat (for a Wizard) and requires that you take a spellcaster at level1, instead I use Earth Spell and Heighten Spell to meet the "cast level 2 spells" requirement. Heighten does change the level of the spell to which it's applied, and Earth Spell changes that level further, so preparing a single cantrip in a 1st level slot seems legitimate.

The big difference between the usual Precocious Apprentice trick and the Earth Spell trick is that Earth Spell has no requirement that your first level be a spellcaster. That means I can take Binder at level 1, which means a Human could take all four required feats at level 1: Improved Binding, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell.

Then, at level 2, the Human could actually use those last three feats to prepare a spell.

The Human could go into Anima Mage at level 3, and at level 12 be pretty happy with all class levels -- and have not thrown away any feats.

The advantage of the Gnome is that Earth Spell & Heighten Spell have special benefit for a Shadowcraft Mage. The Gnome needs something else at level 3, though: he can't get into Anima Mage, since he's one feat behind. So, I noticed that Binder can meet all the Mindbender skill prereqs, and that Improved Binding could be delayed to level 3 pretty easily.


What about going Sorcerer instead of Wizard for less MAD? Less MAD, I guess, but a mid-to-high level Wizard with a non-Good alignment has a lot of options for improving his ability scores.

What would your spell list be? Can you really hit all the spells that you'd want? Sorcerers can be very feat-intensive. Perhaps being a Fire Gnome would help, since it gets two higher-level SLAs and gets +2 caster level on Fire spells?

[TiaC]

IMHO the even sillier part is where you end up in Anima Mage without a Soul Binding class feature ... so you don't get half of the benefit of the class.

This would normally be the case for a prestige class that advances a class feature, but the Anima Mage's text says "At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class." Note that it not worded "as if you had also gained a level in an binding class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" to mirror the spellcasting advancement. There is no check that you have any binder levels.

[Nifft]

This would normally be the case for a prestige class that advances a class feature, but the Anima Mage's text says "At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class." Note that it not worded "as if you had also gained a level in an binding class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" to mirror the spellcasting advancement. There is no check that you have any binder levels.

Ah, you're right!

Thanks.

It still feels icky to lose the two entry feats, though.

[TiaC]

Ah, you're right!

Thanks.

It still feels icky to lose the two entry feats, though.

Technically, you don't lose them. From ToM76: "If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefit." I'm not sure how that works, but you still have the feat. (This allows cheese such as taking enough Anima Mage for it to be self-qualifying and then DCFS-ing or Rite of Rebirthing them away for other benefits.)

It is more for builds that can't lose any caster levels though.

[Aegis013]

Technically, you don't lose them. From ToM76: "If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefit." I'm not sure how that works, but you still have the feat. (This allows cheese such as taking enough Anima Mage for it to be self-qualifying and then DCFS-ing or Rite of Rebirthing them away for other benefits.)

It is more for builds that can't lose any caster levels though.

That was my thoughts on the matter as well, though, you should be able to just use the PHBII retraining rules to exchange them for useful feats as you take your third and fourth levels.

Either way there's enough cheese involved for it to be considered reasonably distasteful, so I understand not wanting to use my proposed method.

[Nifft]

(This allows cheese such as taking enough Anima Mage for it to be self-qualifying and then DCFS-ing or Rite of Rebirthing them away for other benefits.)

It is more for builds that can't lose any caster levels though. Yeah, seems like an interesting TO tool, but self-qualification rebuilds are just too cheesy for me.


That was my thoughts on the matter as well, though, you should be able to just use the PHBII retraining rules to exchange them for useful feats as you take your third and fourth levels.

Either way there's enough cheese involved for it to be considered reasonably distasteful, so I understand not wanting to use my proposed method. Yeah, when I'm the DM, I never allow retraining or psychic reformation to remove whatever feats or features were used to qualify for later class levels.

I figure if I wouldn't allow it as a DM, then I shouldn't ask anyone else to allow it.

[Sagetim]

Yeah, seems like an interesting TO tool, but self-qualification rebuilds are just too cheesy for me.

Yeah, when I'm the DM, I never allow retraining or psychic reformation to remove whatever feats or features were used to qualify for later class levels.

I figure if I wouldn't allow it as a DM, then I shouldn't ask anyone else to allow it.

That's a reasonable limit, and if I were in an in person game with someone and they suggested doing this as a serious idea, I might have to slap them a little (not hard, just a bit upside the head). If you're building in such a way that you can't afford to lose any caster levels, you probably shouldn't be playing a mixture of casters.

One of the problems for this build is that, if I recall correctly, by RAW a wizard will not get more spells known past their level 1 wizard spellbook for free. Every single spell after that would have to be found and scribed. Which means downtime, expense, etc. This is where Geometer would come in handy. If I recall correctly, his '1 page per spell' thing also reduced the cost of scribing spells into your book. And after 5 levels in that you'd have space maybe 2 wyrm mage to pick up a single spell from (anywhere?) of up to level 9, and technically have space to squeeze in one archmage level at the end for:
binder 1/wizard 1/anima mage 10/geometer 5/wyrm mage 2/archmage 1

In any case, you're going to need to play this character in a moderate action game at most. A high action game is not going to give you downtime to add spells to your book, craft magic items, or research new spells.

That said, I generally house rule that wizards continue to get 2 spells per level as long as they get an advance on their spellcasting ability from a class ability (so, for example, the mind bender only gives them 10 spells over 10 levels, because it only has half spellcasting progression, while the archmage gives 10 spells over 5 levels because it has full casting).

[Nifft]

That's a reasonable limit, and if I were in an in person game with someone and they suggested doing this as a serious idea, I might have to slap them a little (not hard, just a bit upside the head). If you're building in such a way that you can't afford to lose any caster levels, you probably shouldn't be playing a mixture of casters. Makes sense to me.


One of the problems for this build is that, if I recall correctly, by RAW a wizard will not get more spells known past their level 1 wizard spellbook for free. Every single spell after that would have to be found and scribed.

Hmm. Looking through the SRD, the Wizard description uses "spell known" and "spell in spellbook" interchangeably.



Spells

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.


So IMHO it's a valid interpretation of RAW that gaining "spells known" does mean gaining the usual number of spells in spellbook. Most PrCs do grant additional spells known when granting an increase in casting.

Additionally, a Domain Wizard will have at least one spell known per spell level.