GM looking for advice about a paladin whorshipping a pantheon.

[Malphite]

Hello everyone, Malphite here it has been a long time since I posted on GITP but I have an issue I have been finding in my most recent D&D game.

Currently in my most recent D&D game I have a player playing a Dwarven Paladin, who worships the entire Dwarven pantheon minus the evil deities. He is mostly worshiping the entire Dwarven pantheon because, when he was making his Paladin he was very much for the idea that classically Dwarves are, "We drink lots, sleep with lots of women and are rowdy but we are still Lawful Good because Dwarf", he also wanted to be the most Dwarfly Dwarf to ever Dwarf. After I told him Moradin isn't exactly like that he noticed the rest of the pantheon specifically the Chaotic Neutral god of war and alcohol Hanseath and said can I not worship all of them, I said sure that's fine but since the game started he's been anything but Paladin like in my mind.

From saying he would drop his Large Warhammer on a foreign diplomat's foot because it would be funny, to getting rowdy and starting a Brawl at a bar because Hanseath, and dismissing some of these actions as being inline with what he thinks a Hanseath follower would do. I've been feeling perhaps I shouldn't have allowed him to worship the whole pantheon. So that brings me here, what should I do about this Paladin player? I don't want to pull code on him since I don't want to be too overbearing with it, but I would also like to push him to one of the gods, maybe not specifically Moradin but definitely not Hanseath since it doesn't fit with his character.

I've thought of several ways to do this, one is introducing an older Paladin of Moradin to "mentor" him and give him some advice, or maybe say some of the followers of one of the gods needs his help against the followers of another Dwarven god. Since as a Paladin if someone of a deity you follow asks for your help I would view that you by obligation to your code as a holy warrior would have to help. I by no means want to restrict him and I know I may be coming off that way but I do feel his worshiping of the whole Pantheon may end up being a detriment to his character so I was wondering what you the GITP forums think I should do.

Thank you!

[Cerefel]

You could always talk to him OoC about his alignment/deity compared to his actions

[Seto]

Actually, Paladins are not required to follow a deity, their divine call comes directly from Cosmic Good itself. So I think your decision to allow worship of the pantheon minus Evil deities was a good call. His worship, though, shouldn't define his behavior. Whether he worships Moradin, another god, all of them or no one, he's still a Paladin, and that's what ultimately matters. That's the reason the Paladin's code isn't god-specific. And his Paladinhood and devotion to cosmic Good should override his worship of Hanseath.

Remind him of that. Insist on the fact that you don't wish to restrict him : actually, I think a goofy, party-hard Paladin could be a lot of fun to play, and an interesting concept, as long as it doesn't make him neglect the call of duty. By all means, introduce a mentor if it can lead to character development.

By the way : if it's roleplay-wise, he has the final say on what is or isn't a "detriment to his character". As long as he doesn't do anything fall-worthy, your interventions are strictly suggestions. If, however, you think his character is inconsistent with what a Paladin is in your setting, talk directly with the player and develop that together.

[Malphite]

Thank you for the suggestion Seto, I was aware Paladin's didn't require a specific god but also thank you for the stating that since I wasn't fully sure on that. I think the mentor option is the best way since I do fear down the line if the followers of Hanseath ask of him to do an unlawful act, that he may feel complied to do so because he is in such devote worship of all the gods regardless of their moral standing minus the evil ones.

Some of it is for roleplaying but I feel it is also about him using the other deities not so lawful actions as a way to say he's following the code and shouldn't be dinged since he's the most Dwarfly Dwarf to ever Dwarf. It has come up already and I waved it off because really I have no say but it has become a bit more prevalent with the not so lawful behavior, perhaps Paladin of Freedom might be a good idea? I'd be willing to offer him trainning to completely change his old Paladin levels to Paladin of Freedom so he could then be the party hardy Paladin but Lawful just suits to player since at some times he's been very much for the law and against chaos, unless it's involving things Hanseath would like.

[Red Fel]

Some of it is for roleplaying but I feel it is also about him using the other deities not so lawful actions as a way to say he's following the code and shouldn't be dinged since he's the most Dwarfly Dwarf to ever Dwarf. It has come up already and I waved it off because really I have no say but it has become a bit more prevalent with the not so lawful behavior, perhaps Paladin of Freedom might be a good idea? I'd be willing to offer him trainning to completely change his old Paladin levels to Paladin of Freedom so he could then be the party hardy Paladin but Lawful just suits to player since at some times he's been very much for the law and against chaos, unless it's involving things Hanseath would like.

Well, several things.

First, Paladins are required to be Lawful, but they don't fall for being rowdy or disrespectful; they fall for committing Evil. If he's just being coarse and ill-mannered, perhaps it isn't the most rectally-Lawful conduct, but it's not fall-worthy. And I'd like to point that out - his conduct, as described, doesn't strike me as particularly non-LG, apart from wanting to worship Hanseath.

Second, as Seto mentioned, no gods are required. Paladins are not Clerics; they don't need to worship a deity. But keep in mind that if you do worship a deity, some of their doctrines may encourage you to act in ways out of step with your desired alignment. (For example, an LG character would have a hard time worshiping a CE deity who demands human sacrifice.)

Third, he's not the most Dwarfly Dwarf to ever Dwarf. Nor does he get to decide that he is. He can claim it, but that doesn't make it true. Being a Dwarf doesn't make you LG. Worshiping Dwarven gods, particularly non-LG ones, does not make you LG. Being a Paladin doesn't make you LG, although it requires you to be. You can tell him if he's acting out of step with his alignment or his fellow Dwarves. And even if he is being a Dwarfly Dwarf, that doesn't guarantee him an alignment; at best, it guarantees him the acceptance of his race.

If Paladin of Freedom is an option, it's worth pursuing. In either case, I'd talk to this player out of game, and explain that his conduct is out of step with his desired alignment. Ask him what he wants to accomplish with this character, and offer constructive suggestions as to how to make that happen.

[Stellar_Magic]

Actually I love this character. For one thing, you've actually got someone that understands paganism and living in an environment of multiple deities. Which seems to be a rarity in most games. Even a LG Paladin could well call acknowledge evil deities in some ways (like cursing someone out... 'Asmodeus take you' makes perfect sense for a Paladin to say).

Again this character is fine... it's just not what most people think of when they hear a Paladin.

[nedz]

Actually I love this character. For one thing, you've actually got someone that understands paganism and living in an environment of multiple deities. Which seems to be a rarity in most games. Even a LG Paladin could well call acknowledge evil deities in some ways (like cursing someone out... 'Asmodeus take you' makes perfect sense for a Paladin to say).

Again this character is fine... it's just not what most people think of when they hear a Paladin.

this, also Lawful means being consistent even if that means worshipping an entire pantheon.

Now if dropping his hammer on the Diplomat's toe was done to be cruel, or to start a war, etc., then it might be a problem — but it sounds like just a prank.

[Nifft]

I'm assuming this is a 3.x game.

The 3.5e SRD has this to say about Paladin behavior:



Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


It doesn't talk about what kind of behavior your deity would approve. It does talk about respect, honor, and (implicitly) compassion.

So, yeah, I'd say your player was stepping out of line.

AFAICT there's nothing wrong with drinking a lot or sleeping around -- so long as those are legal activities wherever you currently are.

But the stuff about being disrespectful to a legitimate authority, and causing a bar fight (which is a threat to innocents)... those things are not okay.

They're not necessarily evil acts, so there's no need for the Paladin to fall immediately, but they're very much chaotic, and enough chaotic acts will make the Paladin stop being of lawful good alignment... and that eventually means no more being a Paladin, not until he gets an Atonement.

[marphod]

this, also Lawful means being consistent even if that means worshipping an entire pantheon.

Now if dropping his hammer on the Diplomat's toe was done to be cruel, or to start a war, etc., then it might be a problem — but it sounds like just a prank.

I've done a Paladin who followed a god of pranksters (keep leaders appropriately humble, build strong communities, mock those who go to excess, don't live life too seriously, entertain the young and downtrodden, don't pick on the weak, teach lessons, etc.) and a Paladin of a god of luck (who had a thing for hunting down cheaters and making them pay for their action).

Nothing in the Paladin code requires them to be serious, stoic, uptight, humorless, aesthetic, or even all that careful. Honorable, yes. Charitable, usually. Good, yes. But the latters do not require the formers.

[Crake]

his conduct, as described, doesn't strike me as particularly non-LG

How is wanting to drop a hammer on a diplomat's foot "because it would be funny" anything other than chaotic in nature. Whether you look at law/chaos as discord/order or rules/freedom, it's chaotic in every sense. Now, ok, acts of chaos on their own don't warrant a fall as a paladin, but performing chaotic acts enough to the point where you become NG does warrant a fall.

[Seto]

Thank you for the suggestion Seto, I was aware Paladin's didn't require a specific god but also thank you for the stating that since I wasn't fully sure on that. I think the mentor option is the best way since I do fear down the line if the followers of Hanseath ask of him to do an unlawful act, that he may feel complied to do so because he is in such devote worship of all the gods regardless of their moral standing minus the evil ones.

As a DM, you control the followers of Hanseath, right ? They ask of him only what you want. As for the mentor, it can be interesting roleplay but keep in mind it will only work if the player is on board with it beforehand. (Attempts to give PCs figures they're supposed to genuinely respect never work if the players don't want it).

[nedz]

How is wanting to drop a hammer on a diplomat's foot "because it would be funny" anything other than chaotic in nature. Whether you look at law/chaos as discord/order or rules/freedom, it's chaotic in every sense. Now, ok, acts of chaos on their own don't warrant a fall as a paladin, but performing chaotic acts enough to the point where you become NG does warrant a fall.

But was he doing it because it would be funny or to honour Hanseath ?
Obviously OOC the first, but IC — I'm not sure you could tell.

[elonin]

Is this a new player? If so I'd give him some leeway. I've heard of paladins following a cause, but not a pantheon. On the other hand Doesn't Durkon from the comic revere the whole pantheon while getting spells from thor?

Is there some context to his behavior? Remember that Scotty from Star Trek who wouldn't normally break orders did start a bar fight to defend the honor of his ship. Being raucous isn't anti-lawful but law does tend to be followed by more planning types.

From the description given in the OP the character doesn't seem to act in the manner of a typical dwarf. I'd ask him what his character concept. I'm also guessing that his idea of dwarves came from the hobbit movie (especially the scene at bilbo's house).

[Malphite]

Thank you everyone for the comments, I thought of an interesting idea though. What if I gave the player a sort of vision the whole Dwarven pantheon says hey he's been a decent joe, but Moradin says hey you're a bit to Hanseathy you should come back in line a bit and go for more balanced whorship, where as Hanseath says hey man do more Hanseathy stuff just be free. Perhaps also some comments from the other gods? Considering his love of Dwarves in other games and in D&D it seems like it would be a cool character moment for him to see all his deities talking to him and giving him some advice.

[Nifft]

Thank you everyone for the comments, I thought of an interesting idea though. What if I gave the player a sort of vision the whole Dwarven pantheon says hey he's been a decent joe, but Moradin says hey you're a bit to Hanseathy you should come back in line a bit and go for more balanced whorship, where as Hanseath says hey man do more Hanseathy stuff just be free. Perhaps also some comments from the other gods? Considering his love of Dwarves in other games and in D&D it seems like it would be a cool character moment for him to see all his deities talking to him and giving him some advice.

You're still stuck in this idea that Paladins are identical to Clerics. They're not.

Clerics need the approval of their god (or pantheon). Paladins don't need a god or a pantheon.

Clerics must be kinda-sorta near the alignment of their god (or pantheon). Paladins must be Lawful Good, no exceptions.

Paladins have a code of behavior, right in the rules. Clerics have no particular code.

Your player's mindset about why Paladins have restrictions is wrong. Being a dwarfy dwarf who dwarfs dwarfily is not inherently good nor bad, and his Paladin status shouldn't care either way. If he can find ways to dwarf dwarfy dwarfish dwarfisms while he obeys the letter and spirit of his Code, that's great. If he can't, then something is going to give.

Unless Hanseathy has some anti-Paladin agenda, he shouldn't be in favor of the Paladin drifting into Chaotic Jerk behavior.

Here's what I'd have Hanseathy say to him: "Not everyone in the Holy Beerhall is drunk, ye know. The guards, the bartenders, the cleaners -- they stay sober, that others may enjoy the fruits of My Domain. Ye signed up to be a high an' mighty guardian of our people, an' tha' means ye gotta stay sober more often than ye'd like, that others may drink without fear. It's not a duty I'd wish on meself, but it's honorable, an' I expect ye to honor it as do we all."

[Malphite]

Thank you for the response Nifft. That is a better response for Hanseath to give, thank you for the idea I appreciate it :)! I think that's probably the best option without the player feeling like I'm throwing so much at him just giving him some friendly tips through the great dwarven deities.

[goto124]

I have the feeling the GM is frustrated not at the paladin failing to act like a paladin, but that the player is being disruptive and doing a lot of things 'just for fun' when it's actually annoying.

Yes, OOC Talk to the Player will be helpful here, alongside the IC reason of Gods Talked to the Character.