Beating true seeing

[ahenobarbi]

Is it possible to appear as someone you are not to someone with true seeing? Only way I know is using Disguise Self skill, but I'm not sure if I can get that high enough (as wizard 5/mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 3/Iot7V 4) to reliably fool folks with 5ish Spot modifier (especially since I plan to get -6 to the check for disguising as a different race, age category and gender).

I probably can get a few ranks in, get MWK tools set and +2 Cha modifier (so total would be +4 up to +10), but the rest I'll have to get from spells but I do not know what spells I can use that will not be negated by True Seeing. Can it be done?

[Diarmuid]

Spells that give raw skill bumps would work. Divine Insight (I think) is a good one.

[Pippin]

Cloak of Khyber (City of Stormreach, page 59) conceals your true appearance from True Seeing if you don't change your current appearance for 6 hours.

This is one of the very last spells WotC created before burying v3.5 :)

[elonin]

True seeing defeats illusion magic but not mundane hiding or disguises. Is this for 3.5 or pathfinder? 3.5 true seeing is a big magic win button vs illusory disguise or hiding, while in PF it only gives a bonus.

[ahenobarbi]

Spells that give raw skill bumps would work. Divine Insight (I think) is a good one.

Looks good, but isn't that Cleric/Pally spell and thus not sustainably available to a wizard(I do plann to take UMD so I could use [eternal] wand of it to get +8 which is nice but not quite enough)?

[Jack_Simth]

Is it possible to appear as someone you are not to someone with true seeing? Only way I know is using Disguise Self skill, but I'm not sure if I can get that high enough (as wizard 5/mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 3/Iot7V 4) to reliably fool folks with 5ish Spot modifier (especially since I plan to get -6 to the check for disguising as a different race, age category and gender).

I probably can get a few ranks in, get MWK tools set and +2 Cha modifier (so total would be +4 up to +10), but the rest I'll have to get from spells but I do not know what spells I can use that will not be negated by True Seeing. Can it be done?
Well, disguise is an opposed check, so Moment of Prescience works just fine. +CL.
Divine Insight is also good (for up to +15), but is a Divine spell.
Greater Heroism is good for a quick +4.
It's Charisma-based, so a Cloak of Charisma+6 and a Circlet of Persuasion are both +3 each.

[ahenobarbi]

True seeing defeats illusion magic but not mundane hiding or disguises. Is this for 3.5 or pathfinder? 3.5 true seeing is a big magic win button vs illusory disguise or hiding, while in PF it only gives a bonus.

It's 3.5 so really bad for parts of what I want to do (I do plan to keep up True Seeing up meself and it's goo there ;) ).


Cloak of Khyber (City of Stormreach, page 59) conceals your true appearance from True Seeing if you don't change your current appearance for 6 hours.

This is one of the very last spells WotC created before burying v3.5 :)


Thanks, this sounds real good although I'll have to check with DM if Alter-selfing into the same creature every 10*CL minutes counts as not changing appearance (for CL <36).

[Sith_Happens]

At the risk of setting the thread on fire, in two levels you can ask your DM whether Mind Blank will work.

[Red Fel]

What about Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)? When cast on yourself, it causes anyone attempting a divination against you to have to beat a CL check DC 15 + your CL. True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) is a divination; ergo, if someone looks at you with True Seeing, they have to beat a CL check to get past your Nondetection.

Another option: True Seeing can't pierce concealment. Spells like Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm), or items like a weapon with the Smoking enhancement, can give you concealment and protect you. Also, you'll look super cool.

Lastly, there's one of my favorites. There's a spelltouched feat called Live My Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare). If someone targets you with a divination, you get to cast Phantasmal Killer on them. It won't stop them from using True Seeing, but if you've optimized your Cha modifer, it will stop them from telling anyone about it.

You know. Because they'll be dead.

[Bronk]

Is it possible to appear as someone you are not to someone with true seeing? Only way I know is using Disguise Self skill, but I'm not sure if I can get that high enough (as wizard 5/mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 3/Iot7V 4) to reliably fool folks with 5ish Spot modifier (especially since I plan to get -6 to the check for disguising as a different race, age category and gender).

I probably can get a few ranks in, get MWK tools set and +2 Cha modifier (so total would be +4 up to +10), but the rest I'll have to get from spells but I do not know what spells I can use that will not be negated by True Seeing. Can it be done?

One of the few definite things that can defeat 'true seeing' is 'dust of disappearance', which turns you invisible in a way that can't be detected by 'magical means'. Maybe you could use that, then disguise yourself over it, a la "The Invisible Man".

[Feddlefew]

What about Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)? When cast on yourself, it causes anyone attempting a divination against you to have to beat a CL check DC 15 + your CL. True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) is a divination; ergo, if someone looks at you with True Seeing, they have to beat a CL check to get past your Nondetection.

Another option: True Seeing can't pierce concealment. Spells like Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm), or items like a weapon with the Smoking enhancement, can give you concealment and protect you. Also, you'll look super cool.


Isn't there some trickery that allows for Permanent ((Invisible) Fog Cloud) centered on the caster? True seeing sees through the invisibility, but not the fog. I've heard of dungeons using this trick to stop players from True Seeing their way to victory.

Of course, now they know you're hiding something.


Lastly, there's one of my favorites. There's a spelltouched feat called Live My Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare). If someone targets you with a divination, you get to cast Phantasmal Killer on them. It won't stop them from using True Seeing, but if you've optimized your Cha modifer, it will stop them from telling anyone about it.

You know. Because they'll be dead.
This is amazing and I wish I'd know about it earlier.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Isn't there some trickery that allows for Permanent ((Invisible) Fog Cloud) centered on the caster? True seeing sees through the invisibility, but not the fog. I've heard of dungeons using this trick to stop players from True Seeing their way to victory.

Of course, now they know you're hiding something.

Obscuring Snow in Frostburn lasts an hour/level and follows the caster, use Invisible Spell with it every day and Lesser Rod of Extend it. You can combine it with the spell Snowsight from that same book, which also lasts an hour/level, and even if you can see invisible stuff you can see through it.

[Feddlefew]

Obscuring Snow in Frostburn lasts an hour/level and follows the caster, use Invisible Spell with it every day and Lesser Rod of Extend it. You can combine it with the spell Snowsight from that same book, which also lasts an hour/level, and even if you can see invisible stuff you can see through it.

But then someone else could stack See Invisability and Snowsight, thus defeating the purpose of the initial shenanigans.

[Jack_Simth]

But then someone else could stack See Invisability and Snowsight, thus defeating the purpose of the initial shenanigans.

Yes, but there's a reason a competition between Tier-1 casters is sometimes thought of much like a chess match. Move and counter move. However, when deception is involved, they need to have a pretty good idea of what sorts of things you're up to in order to take the counter move. However, given that it takes a modest amount of work to get Snowsight on one's list as a Wizard (It's a Druid, Ranger, and domain spell) it's more likely is that they'll just dispell the snow (or Fireball it) when it comes to their attention if it's a problem. Of course, theoretically, most people would feel the chill.

True Seeing lasts only a minute/level by default, and has a nontrivial component (250 gp). It's not something most people are going to keep up all day without builds that specialize in mitigating metamagic costs (although there is the Hathran Mask of True Seeing).

Arcane Sight, on the other hand, is lower level, has no components, is natively subject to Persistent Spell (and is low enough level that it's doable without metamagic reducers), and can be made permanent. It's also very likely to give away the game when they ID your illusion or transmutation aura.

So the way to go about it is to use dischargeable spells that boost your skill check, and then leave off the magic for the rest of the day (or do something to hide your magical aura; there's a few ways).

[marphod]

Thanks, this sounds real good although I'll have to check with DM if Alter-selfing into the same creature every 10*CL minutes counts as not changing appearance (for CL <36).

Alter Self, lesser metamagic rod of Persistent Spell (doesn't exist, but it can be costed/created).

Or simply a persistent item of Alter Self.

Heck, if you can get your CL up to 18, a lesser metamagic wand of Extend would do. :smallbiggrin:

[Werephilosopher]

Lastly, there's one of my favorites. There's a spelltouched feat called Live My Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare). If someone targets you with a divination, you get to cast Phantasmal Killer on them. It won't stop them from using True Seeing, but if you've optimized your Cha modifer, it will stop them from telling anyone about it.

You know. Because they'll be dead.

I don't think this works. True seeing doesn't target the creatures the true-seer is looking at.

[martixy]

I asked that very same question recently.
This was the answer that was arrived at.


Cloak of Khyber (City of Stormreach, page 59) conceals your true appearance from True Seeing if you don't change your current appearance for 6 hours.

This is one of the very last spells WotC created before burying v3.5 :)

By far the best choice IMO.

[Sith_Happens]

True Seeing lasts only a minute/level by default, and has a nontrivial component (250 gp). It's not something most people are going to keep up all day without builds that specialize in mitigating metamagic costs (although there is the Hathran Mask of True Seeing).

Which would be all well and good if every CR >10 outsider and its mother didn't have True Seeing at-will as a (Sp) and/or always-on as a (Su). Though disguise is much less likely to be your concern against outsiders in the first place.

[Story]

What about Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)? When cast on yourself, it causes anyone attempting a divination against you to have to beat a CL check DC 15 + your CL. True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) is a divination; ergo, if someone looks at you with True Seeing, they have to beat a CL check to get past your Nondetection.

This doesn't work since True Seeing isn't cast against the person you're seeing.

And by RAW there's no listed consequence for failing the CL check.



Lastly, there's one of my favorites. There's a spelltouched feat called Live My Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare). If someone targets you with a divination, you get to cast Phantasmal Killer on them. It won't stop them from using True Seeing, but if you've optimized your Cha modifer, it will stop them from telling anyone about it.

You know. Because they'll be dead.

True Seeing is Target: Creature Touched. Live My Nightmare specifically says "target" so it's not even potentially ambiguous like Nondetection.

[Feddlefew]

After thinking about it, the permanent invisible fog trick is probably the best solution for hiding stationary objects and locations from true seeing, not for what the OP wants.

[Inevitability]

True Seeing is Target: Creature Touched. Live My Nightmare specifically says "target" so it's not even potentially ambiguous like Nondetection.

Oooo! Oooo! I know! What if you trick them into casting True Seeing on you?

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's also the Mask of the Misplaced Aura (S:CoT). It's rather expensive at 77,000gp but it beats any kind of magical detection, which explicitly includes True Seeing.

[Jack_Simth]

Which would be all well and good if every CR >10 outsider and its mother didn't have True Seeing at-will as a (Sp) and/or always-on as a (Su). Though disguise is much less likely to be your concern against outsiders in the first place.
Yes. You will, of course, also note that I was mostly suggesting +Skill spells anyway, which won't have the problem for the simple reason that the disguise is technically mundane when you're done.

[Psyren]

True seeing defeats illusion magic but not mundane hiding or disguises. Is this for 3.5 or pathfinder? 3.5 true seeing is a big magic win button vs illusory disguise or hiding, while in PF it only gives a bonus.

Where are you getting this from? PF and 3.5 True Seeing are word for word identical.

[martixy]

There's also the Mask of the Misplaced Aura (S:CoT). It's rather expensive at 77,000gp but it beats any kind of magical detection, which explicitly includes True Seeing.

Oooohhhh... new development to the story!

Thanks for this. Last time we skipped this one.

[Flickerdart]

There's also the Mask of the Misplaced Aura (S:CoT). It's rather expensive at 77,000gp but it beats any kind of magical detection, which explicitly includes True Seeing.
The OP isn't concerned about being detected though. He's concerned about being recognized.

The most foolproof way is just staying 120ft away from spellcasters. Maybe get a restraining order from the local mayor? :smallamused:

[martixy]

The OP isn't concerned about being detected though. He's concerned about being recognized.

The most foolproof way is just staying 120ft away from spellcasters. Maybe get a restraining order from the local mayor? :smallamused:

Well if you combine a disguise(magical or not) and a prevention on magical recognition you have everything covered.

[Segev]

Interestingly, if you can get a reliable hireling or other minion with a high Disguise check, they can make your mundane disguises for you. You'd use their skill check, then, to set the DC through which somebody would have to Sense Motive (or Spot).

[DarkSonic1337]

The OP isn't concerned about being detected though. He's concerned about being recognized.

The most foolproof way is just staying 120ft away from spellcasters. Maybe get a restraining order from the local mayor? :smallamused:

Checked out the item myself and he made a mistake in his description. What the mask does is make you look like someone else (your choice when you put it on), and this disguise fools magical detection like trueseeing, detect alignment, ect. It also makes your lies immune to discern lies. It doesn't actually change your alignment though, so smite evil will still work on you if you're evil, ect.

So it basically makes your magical disguise function like a mundane disguise and makes you able to lie through spell effects. It's pretty cool.

[Jowgen]

Live My Nightmare requires DM-adjudication as to what it works against. I once looked up the exact number of divination school spells that a) had a specific target, and b) weren't beneficial. The number was prohibitively small (Mark of the Hunter, a ranger spell, was one of the better ones), to the point that the feat is effectively useless if you read it this way.

For example, none of the Detect -x- spells actually target creatures. Neither do scrying spells. The only way for this feat to actually function is to give more weight to the part where it says that it can trigger of divination "effects". An effect can much more easily be argued to target something than a spell, which has a specific target line. For example, the third round of a Detect Evil spell very arguably creates a targeting divination effect, even though the spell itself doesn't target.

Whether this works for True Seeing is therefore DM-territory imo

[Pippin]

The most foolproof way is just staying 120ft away from spellcasters.
And obviously this got me wondering... Do we know a way to extend the radius of True Seeing? Or a way to have unlimited True Seeing?

[Flickerdart]

And obviously this got me wondering... Do we know a way to extend the radius of True Seeing? Or a way to have unlimited True Seeing?
True Seeing does not have a radius. The sight it confers on the target has a range, but unfortunately neither Widen Spell (because the True Seeing effect is not a burst, emanation, line, or spread) nor Enlarge Spell (because it can only affect the range of a spell, not the range of an effect of a spell) help.

[Crake]

Live My Nightmare requires DM-adjudication as to what it works against. I once looked up the exact number of divination school spells that a) had a specific target, and b) weren't beneficial. The number was prohibitively small (Mark of the Hunter, a ranger spell, was one of the better ones), to the point that the feat is effectively useless if you read it this way.

For example, none of the Detect -x- spells actually target creatures. Neither do scrying spells. The only way for this feat to actually function is to give more weight to the part where it says that it can trigger of divination "effects". An effect can much more easily be argued to target something than a spell, which has a specific target line. For example, the third round of a Detect Evil spell very arguably creates a targeting divination effect, even though the spell itself doesn't target.

Whether this works for True Seeing is therefore DM-territory imo

You need to note the "with a divination spell or effect" bit. For example, while the scrying spell does not target a creature, the scrying effect (a scrying sensor) does, kind of like how a ray spell itself does not have a target, but an effect which targets a creature (or tries to anyway). On the other hand though, true seeing does not meet either of these requirements. It neither target's the creature it's being used against, nor does it's effect target the creature.

[Monktools]

Antimagic Field or Supressing Field(Divination)

[Story]

Live My Nightmare requires DM-adjudication as to what it works against. I once looked up the exact number of divination school spells that a) had a specific target, and b) weren't beneficial. The number was prohibitively small (Mark of the Hunter, a ranger spell, was one of the better ones), to the point that the feat is effectively useless if you read it this way.

Don't forget Alter Fortune. But yes, it's definitely dysfunctional.

[Jack_Simth]

Antimagic Field or Supressing Field(Divination)

True Seeing is a touch range spell. The effect is that it empowers the target to see things 'as they actually are' within 120 feet (which is potentially problematic with some transmutations...). The fact that the divination does not include the area protected by the Antimagic Field or the Suppressing Field is irrelevant unless the target of the spell is inside the protected area.