(3.5) Social/Control Bard Build Sugestions?

[Feddlefew]

Trying to build a tier 2 bard character, and I'm feeling overwhelmed by options. :smalleek:

The character pitch is "What if Wander from Wander Over Yonder undergoes a hero's journey to villainhood?". I'm not trying to exactly replicate the little orange banjo-playing fuzzball, as funny as that would be, just using him as guidelines.

Campaign information:
-We're starting at level 3
-32 point buy.
-Campaign world is roughly described as "Mad Max meets Mordor"
-The rest of the party is composed of evil and/or jerk characters.
+So far I know we have an Evil fungus-Druid with a plant companion and a selfish rogue.
-PC vs PC is allowed.
-Mutual group agreement to not use psyonics
-Druid already has minion-fu.

For the actual build I'm thinking:
-Race:Desert Gnome (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertGnomes)
-NG, changes to NE over course of campaign.
-Stats: Str 8 (10, -2 from gnome), Dex 16, Con 12 (10, +2 from gnome), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
-Focus on social-fu and control magic. Prefers to avoid violence.

+Ignoring martial.
-Very good at escape artist checks
-Might go into the Virtuoso prestige class
-Possible Feats: Some combination of Improved initiative, Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer, extends bardic music), Run, Force of Personality (Complete adventurer, make will saves with Cha) or anything you guys suggest.
-Planned feats: Disguise Spell at level 6.
-Tentative Skills: 4(8)+3(8)= 58 skill points

+Bluff (4), Concentration (6), Craft: Musical Instrument (5), Diplomacy (6), Escape artist (6), Gather Information (3), Listen (4), Move Silently (4), Perform: Stringed Instruments (6), Spot (4). Knowledge skills: Nature (2), Local (2), Geography (2), History (2)

For equipment, he'll have a masterworks banjo, masterworks instrument making-tools, leather armor, a Heward's Handy Haversack refluffed as a very nice hat, and misc adventuring equipment. Would the "Haverhat" interfere with other magical items that occupy the head or face slot? The normal Haversack doesn't directly effect characters, so...

Edit: DM says traits and flaws are allowed. The flaw Noncombatant (-1 to melee attacks, +1 Feat) and the traits Easygoing (+1 gather information, -1 intimidate and sense motive) and Polite (+1 to diplomacy, -2 to intimidate) look appealing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would recommend using Beguiler from PH2 instead of Bard, and going something like Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 for your build. It's basically a dedicated illusionist/enchanter that gets skills like a Rogue, but it doesn't get Perform as a class skill.

Take Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, which should give you early access to the next higher level spells on the Beguiler list since you can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. That plus the Mindbender dip will allow your Advanced Learning spells to be up to 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level, in which case you should pick Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. Ray of Stupidity automatically disables any animal it hits, and easily disables most low-intelligence opponents, especially with Split Ray and a Lesser Rod of Maximize. Shadow Form is amazing with a high Escape Artist skill. Greater Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are pretty self explanatory. Superior Invisibility is just the best choice for that level of spell.

Get the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness p126 once you take Mindbender, it has an added benefit of allowing you to spot easy targets for Ray of Stupidity. Other good feats to pick up include Invisible Spell from Cityscape, Split Ray, Darkstalker in Lords of Madness, and (Greater) Spell Focus for Enchantment and/or Illusion.

Good items to pick up include the Raiment of the Four set in MIC, a Circlet of Rapid Casting from that same book, and a Runestaff (MIC) or even a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) and you can make a UMD check when you attune to it to use the spells it contains as though they were on your class spell list.

In that case you'll be Int-SAD with enough enchantment spells that you won't really need a high Cha. I'd go Int > Con > Dex > everything else for your ability scores.

[Feddlefew]

^Nah. I'm playing a Bard, not a different class. Even if beguilers are more optimized than bards, it still doesn't fit the character I want to play.

[Troacctid]

Those are good choices for flaws and traits.

It would be a good idea to put some skill ranks in Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) to get synergy bonuses to Diplomacy. (Sense Motive is also a good skill in its own right.) I'd also recommend keeping Bluff maxed, since you want your checks to be as high as possible so that they can reliably succeed. If nobody else in the party has Spellcraft, you'll want some points in that too, since identifying spells and magical effects is important; if your party already has a Wizard or something, though, then you can let them handle it. For Knowledge skills, the best ones tend to be the ones that are used for identifying monsters (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, and Planes) because they tend to come up the most often; in any case, it would be a good idea to keep at least 1 rank in all of them, so that you can make trained checks.

Craft is not usually useful unless masterwork items are difficult to buy in your campaign setting. Even then, the DCs are fairly low, and the skill can be used untrained, so it's often easier to use spells and other temporary boosts instead of spending actual ranks. Gather Information often falls by the wayside if the DM doesn't make a conscious effort to include it, so you might be able to shave some points off there, maybe. If you take the Melodic Casting feat, then Concentration becomes unnecessary.

For feats, Run is useless, so definitely don't take that. Lingering Song is generally inferior to Melodic Casting (Complete Mage), which allows you to just keep your bardic music going rather than extending its duration, and also has the added benefit of letting you use Perform in place of Concentration. Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane) is a very good feat on a Bard, as the familiar shares all your skill ranks, so it effectively lets you roll twice on a lot of checks and take the better result, plus it can aid you on your checks to give you +2 on basically anything. Then later, you can take Improved Familiar and upgrade it to something cool like an Imp or whatever.

Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) is a much better prestige class than Virtuoso. Virtuoso is not good for Bards. All it does is give you abilities you were already getting from the base class, but at -1 caster level. Its main use is to give Bard abilities to casters like Sorcerers or Warlocks.

[Feddlefew]

Excellent suggestions, Troaccid. I'll definitely swap ranks in Concentration with ranks in Spellcraft and take the Melodic Casting feat.

As for the crafting skill, because of the nature of the setting (heavily based off Mad Max, with the only major settlements we players know of being hostile to the PCs) the only way I can ensure the repair or replacement of an instrument is to do it with skills. If I felt I could put those skill points into other skills I'd be happy to.

[gorfnab]

Trying to build a tier 2 bard character,
To go from Tier 3 (ie. Bard) to Tier 2 (ie. Sorcerer) you'll need access to 9th level spells. For that I recommend this Bard build.

Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8.

Since Virtuoso lets you pick level by level what spellcasting to advance you can put the last 8 levels of it into advancing Sublime Chord's casting. So with this build you end up with 9th level spells.

You said the Druid has minions. It might be beneficial then to look into buffing Inspire Courage. This handbook has a decent listing of how to do that.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936

Also this Bard Handbook has a great listing of other feats and what not that may be of some use to you.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284

[Feddlefew]

Rule question: The druid's minions are mostly plants*. Do I need to take that feat that allows bardic music to effect plants for inspire courage to work on them?

I'm going to send him a text to ask if they're mindless.

*By mostly I mean think Cordyceps, not that plants will make up the numerical majority of her minions.

Edit: My DM has requested that I not max out my diplomacy skill. Should I send him house rules to make Diplomancers less game breaking or recoup some skill points?

[Troacctid]

Edit: My DM has requested that I not max out my diplomacy skill. Should I send him house rules to make Diplomancers less game breaking or recoup some skill points?

That's a matter of IRL diplomacy. You know the guy better than we do. It depends why he's worried. If it's primarily a power level concern, it's probably worth discussing houserules; if it's just a style of gameplay he's uncomfortable with, then probably concede the issue, I guess?

[Feddlefew]

That's a matter of IRL diplomacy. You know the guy better than we do. It depends why he's worried. If it's primarily a power level concern, it's probably worth discussing houserules; if it's just a style of gameplay he's uncomfortable with, then probably concede the issue, I guess?

It's power level concerns; our group is heavily RP focused, and NPC interactions are a big thing.

[gorfnab]

Rule question: The druid's minions are mostly plants*. Do I need to take that feat that allows bardic music to effect plants for inspire courage to work on them?

I'm going to send him a text to ask if they're mindless.

*By mostly I mean think Cordyceps, not that plants will make up the numerical majority of her minions.

If they have the Plant Type then most likely you'll need the feat Green Ear from Complete Adventurer since Inspire Courage is a mind-affecting ability and a morale effect.

Plant Type

Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities, above) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

Features: A plant creature has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.

Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).

Good Fortitude saves.

Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits: A plant creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Low-light vision.

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.

Not subject to critical hits.

Proficient with its natural weapons only.

Proficient with no armor.

Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.

Inspire Courage

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himselfs), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.


However, if the plants make up a small portion of his minions then you could use Inspire Courage on the rest of his minions and cast buff spells on the Plants (as well as the other minions).

[KingSmitty]

My DM has requested that I not max out my diplomacy skill. Should I send him house rules to make Diplomancers less game breaking or recoup some skill points?

save some skill points and learn glibness to get a +30

[Feddlefew]

If they have the Plant Type then most likely you'll need the feat Green Ear from Complete Adventurer since Inspire Courage is a mind-affecting ability and a morale effect.

Plant Type

Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities, above) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

Features: A plant creature has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.

Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).

Good Fortitude saves.

Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits: A plant creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Low-light vision.

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.

Not subject to critical hits.

Proficient with its natural weapons only.

Proficient with no armor.

Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.

Inspire Courage

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himselfs), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.


However, if the plants make up a small portion of his minions then you could use Inspire Courage on the rest of his minions and cast buff spells on the Plants (as well as the other minions).

They have taken the alternate feature which gives them a plant.... thing instead of an animal companion. However, I think they said it counts as an animal for a lot of things, and I don't know if mind effecting spells is one of them.


save some skill points and learn glibness to get a +30

Glibness only works when you lie, which greatly limits its usefulness with this character.

[Feddlefew]

Talked to one of the other players; they said I should probably take a different flaw, since my character will never use melee attacks anyway. We both agreed that Arcane Performer (Character must succeed on a perform check to cast spells; failure causes the loss of the spell) was a better flaw. This makes the Versatile Performer feat appealing, since it lets me use two (intelligence modifier) additional perform skills as if they had the same number of skill ranks as the highest Perform skill, and gives a +2 bonus to perform checks if I use two different perform skills at the same time. However, this feels a little cheesy, since I can avoid the whole "can't effectively cast spells without an instrument" problem the Arcane Performer flaw would give this character, increase their effective perform: Stringed Instruments ability to +12, and save some skill points. On the other hand, I'm not certain that's the best use of a feat. None of the other feats (besides the Animal Companion one and maaaaybe Improved Initiative) seem really appealing.

In other news, the Druid's "animal" companion is defiantly not effected by my buffs until I get Green Ear.

Edit: On the other hand, taking acquire familiar and then improved familiar would let me have a Worg familiar, since my character's alignment will probably be NE anyway....