Feat: Joe of All Trades

[Red Rubber Band]

Could I get some feedback on the abusability/unusability and wording of the following feat.

Joe of All Trades
Must be taken at first level.
You do not gain skill points during character creation or while levelling up. You cannot put skill points into skills.
At level 1 you gain a +1 bonus to all skills. This increases by +1 at level 4, and then by another +1 every four levels for a maximum of +6 at level 20.
For Class, Skill Trick and Feat requirements you are considered to have ranks in a skill equal to the class levels that give you the skill as a class skill. For example Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 would be considered as having 1 rank in Knowledge (The Planes) and 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local) for Class, Skill Trick, and Feat requirements.


Should the skill ranks be equal to class levels that give you the skill as a class skill +3?
I'm sure there's a feat in 3.5 that says something along the lines of "once a class skill, always a class skill". But I'm drawing a blank atm.
If someone takes Able Learner in addition to this feat I want there to be a special interaction. What would work well with it?

The reason that Skill Tricks is there is because there is a feat that gives you skill points. I want it so that someone could take the feat, gain skill points and use them for Skill Tricks.

[Network]

Could I get some feedback on the abusability/unusability and wording of the following feat.

Joe of All Trades
Must be taken at first level.
You do not gain skill points during character creation or while levelling up. You cannot put skill points into skills.
At level 1 you gain a +1 bonus to all skills. This increases by +1 at level 4, and then by another +1 every four levels for a maximum of +6 at level 20.
For Class, Skill Trick and Feat requirements you are considered to have ranks in a skill equal to the class levels that give you the skill as a class skill. For example Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 would be considered as having 1 rank in Knowledge (The Planes) and 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local) for Class, Skill Trick, and Feat requirements.


Should the skill ranks be equal to class levels that give you the skill as a class skill +3?
I'm sure there's a feat in 3.5 that says something along the lines of "once a class skill, always a class skill". But I'm drawing a blank atm.
If someone takes Able Learner in addition to this feat I want there to be a special interaction. What would work well with it?

The reason that Skill Tricks is there is because there is a feat that gives you skill points. I want it so that someone could take the feat, gain skill points and use them for Skill Tricks.
Horrible. A character with this feat has an effective rank that is only a fourth of what a normal character without the feat could get. And he's still wasting a feat.

A virtual rank in class skills isn't so great when you need to max cross-class skills (yes, it happens) or when you can't even reliably hit level-appropriate DCs (the later is people's biggest issue with truenamers after all, and the truenamer is still more reliable than a character with this feat).

The "once a class skill, always a class skill" feat IS Able Learner. What else were you thinking?

By RAW you will still never be able to take skill tricks. They require you to spend skill points, which a character with this feat doesn't have. The the skill points from Open Minded aren't really different than the skill points for leveling up, so a Joe of All Trades doesn't actually gets skill points from it. Even if he could, Open Minded gives you 5 skill points and skill tricks require 2. You cannot leave skill points unused when leveling up, so you effectively can't take the feat without ending up in an infinite loop (which the GM will most likely solve by making you gain 4 skill points per instance of the feat instead of 5).

For examples of similar abilities done right, see the Bardic Knack ACF in the Player's Handbook II (which gives an effective rank of 1/2 your bard level in all skills you have ranks in) and the Jack of All Trades feat (which gives an effective rank of 1/2 in all skills you do not have ranks in). Combining the two is almost twice better than the Joe of All Trades feat, and you still have skill points to max the skills you want or to get skill tricks. There's also Able Learner and a dip into factotum, which gives you all skills as class skills, for all classes, forever. Which only makes humans, changelings and doppelgangers even more awesome.

[Red Rubber Band]

Horrible. A character with this feat has an effective rank that is only a fourth of what a normal character without the feat could get. And he's still wasting a feat.
I understand what the effective skill rank of the character will be.
Perhaps it would be better as a flaw?* In which case I would simplify it to:
Joe of All Trades
Must be taken at first level.
You do not gain skill points during character creation or while levelling up. You cannot put skill points into skills.
At level 1 you gain a +1 bonus to all skills. This increases by +1 at level 4, and then by another +1 every four levels for a maximum of +6 at level 20.

*I dislike the piddly drawbacks from the 3.5 flaws. Please do not compare this to them.


A virtual rank in class skills isn't so great when you need to max cross-class skills (yes, it happens) or when you can't even reliably hit level-appropriate DCs (the later is people's biggest issue with truenamers after all, and the truenamer is still more reliable than a character with this feat).
Obviously this feat is not for everyone, truenamers least of all. It's not like I'll be taking Power Attack on my Wizard - even though taking Power Attack won't make the Wizard unplayable :smallbiggrin:


The "once a class skill, always a class skill" feat IS Able Learner. What else were you thinking?
I was thinking that there was a limit on ranks you could have in a cross class skills that was lower than the amount of ranks you could have in class skills.


By RAW you will still never be able to take skill tricks. They require you to spend skill points, which a character with this feat doesn't have. The the skill points from Open Minded aren't really different than the skill points for leveling up, so a Joe of All Trades doesn't actually gets skill points from it. Even if he could, Open Minded gives you 5 skill points and skill tricks require 2. You cannot leave skill points unused when leveling up, so you effectively can't take the feat without ending up in an infinite loop (which the GM will most likely solve by making you gain 4 skill points per instance of the feat instead of 5).
By RAW I want you to still be able to take skill tricks via Open Minded, which I thought I quite explicitly stated. So how could I word it otherwise? Make a special exception for Open Minded? Are there any other feats that give you skill points?
I'll admit that the extra skill point was a problem, but I'm not sure what to do with it.


For examples of similar abilities done right, see the Bardic Knack ACF in the Player's Handbook II (which gives an effective rank of 1/2 your bard level in all skills you have ranks in) and the Jack of All Trades feat (which gives an effective rank of 1/2 in all skills you do not have ranks in). Combining the two is almost twice better than the Joe of All Trades feat, and you still have skill points to max the skills you want or to get skill tricks.
First off, they don't work together. Bardic Knack requires you to have a rank in a skill. Jack of All Trades gives you 1/2 a rank.
Secondly, Bardic Knack only works with Bard levels. I would like characters other than Bard to be able to have a skill set, however meagre and widespread it may be.
Thirdly, Bardic Knack is for trained only skills. I want this to be over all skills.



As a side note I want to stay away from making the feat too similar to Improvisation and Improved Improvisation from Pathfinder.

[Network]

I was thinking that there was a limit on ranks you could have in a cross class skills that was lower than the amount of ranks you could have in class skills.
Only if the cross-class skill has never been a class skill for you. Otherwise, the limit on ranks is the same. Cross-class skills still cost more, but Able Learner removes that.

By RAW I want you to still be able to take skill tricks via Open Minded, which I thought I quite explicitly stated. So how could I word it otherwise? Make a special exception for Open Minded? Are there any other feats that give you skill points?
I'll admit that the extra skill point was a problem, but I'm not sure what to do with it.
Nymph's kiss gives you 1 more skill point/level.

First off, they don't work together. Bardic Knack requires you to have a rank in a skill. Jack of All Trades gives you 1/2 a rank.
Secondly, Bardic Knack only works with Bard levels. I would like characters other than Bard to be able to have a skill set, however meagre and widespread it may be.
Thirdly, Bardic Knack is for trained only skills. I want this to be over all skills.
Read Bardic Knack again. You can use it on any skill check, and you only need a rank if the skill is trained only. Jack of All Trades lets you use any skill untrained, even a trained only skill, as if you had 1/2 rank in it (you don't actually get 1/2 rank). The wording of Bardic Knack is quite clearly a case of WotC forgetting you can have 1/2 rank in a skill, and no matter what the Complete Adventurer version of Jack of All Trades says, the 3.0 version of the feat (in the SRD) allows it to combine with the bard ACF by RAW.

That said, Bardic Knack does only work for bard levels. I suggest a similar ability that keys off character level instead, maybe with Jack of All Trades as a prerequisite. That may actually be worth taking.

[Red Rubber Band]

That said, Bardic Knack does only work for bard levels. I suggest a similar ability that keys off character level instead, maybe with Jack of All Trades as a prerequisite. That may actually be worth taking.

Which means back to square one. Trying to work this feat so it doesn't feel like Improvisation/Improved Improvisation from PF, or too much like Bardic Knack/Bardic Knowledge. Effecting all skills, preferably ones that don't have skill points in them.

Could it be as simple as getting a +1 bonus to all skills that don't have a skill point in them at level 1, level 4, and then every 4 levels after that?
Due to the "not having skill points in them" clause it feels incredibly like Improvisation/Improved Improvisation :smallsigh:

I don't want this to be a stellar, amazeballs feat. Just something that a character who wants to be able to assist in any skill based situation (but doesn't have skill points to spread around) will take. Should the bonus be bigger? Make it a +2 at first level, then +1?

[Dienekes]

Honestly, I would do something like this:

Joe of All Trades
Benefit: You are considered to have a Feat bonus equal to half your character level, rounded down, for all skills (except Liguistics or whatever the Learn Language skill is called). This bonus does not stack with any skill points invested in specific skills. This bonus does not count toward the prerequisites of any feat, skill trick, or prestige class.

This gives +10 at level 20, and while not good at least allows the character to make all the basic checks and aid in a more dedicated skilled character's roll. But allows the character to spend their skills normally.

It also makes skills work more like Star Wars Saga Edition skills, which is pretty balanced in that regard. In terms of pure numbers this is a powerful feat, but honestly, it's really more of a trap option unless you're doing a solo campaign.

[Jormengand]

Honestly, I might consider this as written on, say, a fighter, assuming you counted all skills as trained. Because, y'know, being able to at least attempt a skill check for pretty much anything you could possibly want to do, oh and by the way you get about fifty times as many skill points as normal, is pretty neat.

Also, the name made me giggle, so there's that.

[Red Rubber Band]

Honestly, I would do something like this:

Joe of All Trades
Benefit: You are considered to have a Feat bonus equal to half your character level, rounded down, for all skills (except Liguistics or whatever the Learn Language skill is called). This bonus does not stack with any skill points invested in specific skills. This bonus does not count toward the prerequisites of any feat, skill trick, or prestige class.

This gives +10 at level 20, and while not good at least allows the character to make all the basic checks and aid in a more dedicated skilled character's roll. But allows the character to spend their skills normally.

It also makes skills work more like Star Wars Saga Edition skills, which is pretty balanced in that regard. In terms of pure numbers this is a powerful feat, but honestly, it's really more of a trap option unless you're doing a solo campaign.

Yeah. I feel that some DM's I play with will be "omg too powerful" due to the numbers.

How about a bonus equal to half character level, rounded down, for all skills you don't have skill points invested in?


Honestly, I might consider this as written on, say, a fighter, assuming you counted all skills as trained. Because, y'know, being able to at least attempt a skill check for pretty much anything you could possibly want to do, oh and by the way you get about fifty times as many skill points as normal, is pretty neat.

Also, the name made me giggle, so there's that.

The character that made me want to create this feat was someone who had had a varied life, with no formal or extensive training in anything.
Someone who is happy just lending a hand, but doesn't want to spotlight.

[Network]

Which means back to square one. Trying to work this feat so it doesn't feel like Improvisation/Improved Improvisation from PF, or too much like Bardic Knack/Bardic Knowledge. Effecting all skills, preferably ones that don't have skill points in them.

Honestly, I tell you it's impossible. Either you give a bonus to skills without ranks in them (like Improvization) or you give a virtual rank that you use instead of real ranks in skill checks (like Bardic Knack). The former is horrible design, but the later is actually decent.

Dienekes's version of the feat is functionally identical to the later, while your last version of it is more like the former. IMO, characters shouldn't be punished for having low ranks in a skill (as opposed to no rank), so my choice obviously goes toward Dienekes's version.

[Red Rubber Band]

Honestly, I tell you it's impossible. Either you give a bonus to skills without ranks in them (like Improvization) or you give a virtual rank that you use instead of real ranks in skill checks (like Bardic Knack). The former is horrible design, but the later is actually decent.

Dienekes's version of the feat is functionally identical to the later, while your last version of it is more like the former. IMO, characters shouldn't be punished for having low ranks in a skill (as opposed to no rank), so my choice obviously goes toward Dienekes's version.

I'm not here for "impossible". If I can't get it to work without making it feel like Improvisation, then that's fine.

Keep in mind that this has to be taken at level 1.
If someone has made the choice to take this feat, then they are well aware of the consequences of placing ranks into skills that they do not intend to concentrate on.

So you're in favour of the latter. Of virtual ranks - that don't stack with actual ranks - being placed in all skills / class skills / untrained skills and do / don't allow you to qualify for PrC's / Feats / Skill Tricks?

[Network]

So you're in favour of the latter. Of virtual ranks - that don't stack with actual ranks - being placed in all skills and don't allow you to qualify for PrC's / Feats / Skill Tricks?
Yes, provided the virtual ranks do not let you use a skill you would otherwise be unable to use or the feat requires Jack of All Trades in the first place.

I don't like the notion that training at something makes you worse at it than you were before. This is even more ridiculous with skills like Knowledge, where the assumption would be that studying on a topic makes you forget what you knew about it beforehand. The Improvization feat may not have this issue in PF (since you get a +3 bonus in all class skills you have ranks into), but a similar feat in 3.5 would, for the reason mentioned. This is mostly a matter of preference, I guess, so if you aren't convinced, feel free to ignore.

Balance-wise, 10 virtual (non-stackable) ranks in all skills is not really stronger than a +3 to your maxed skill. It all depends on optimization level and what your GM is comfortable with. Nine times out of ten, high-op players will prefer the +3 bonus, because virtual ranks that don't qualify for anything are harder to break than reducing an epic spell's chance of failure by 15%.