A quick though on class skills/D20

[Squirrel_Dude]

Something that people often bring up with Pathfinder, occasionally as one of its problems, is that a class's skill list doesn't really matter that much beyond a +3 bonus. I don't think there's a very valid argument to the contrary, and I also hate ticky-tacky +1/+2/+3 bonuses and their absurd prevalence in Pathfinder. Last night, unsurprisingly in the shower, I came up with two ways to maybe increase the importance of a class's skill list and also decrease the amount of small bonuses to track.

1. A character who has at least 1 rank in a class skill may reroll a d20 whenever they make a skill check with that class skill. Not sure if this would be of the roll 2 and take the best one variety, or the declaration of a reroll before you know success variety.

2. A character with at least 1 rank in a class roll does automatically succeed on a natural 20.

I don't think that these two things could be combined, but I would probably be a big fan of fewer +1/+2 bonuses in Pathfinder and more abilities that let you reroll dice.

[Lalliman]

The reason that skill checks don't auto-succeed on a natural 20 is because that'd allow you to, say, jump to the moon using acrobatics. Of course, no sane DM would allow that, but it'd place upon them the burden of deciding what is reasonably doable with a 20 and what isn't. Which just seems like needless work.

That aside, i'm not sure what you're trying to do here. You say you dislike the fact that raising a skill beyond a few ranks is inefficient, but you're proposing new rules that further encourage 1-rank-dipping. Did i misunderstand?

[Psyren]

That aside, i'm not sure what you're trying to do here. You say you dislike the fact that raising a skill beyond a few ranks is inefficient, but you're proposing new rules that further encourage 1-rank-dipping. Did i misunderstand?

I agree with this, these sorts of non-linear power just encourage everyone to dabble in their class skills and even dedicate traits to getting more rather than picking skills based on what their character would logically be good at. I hesitate to use the phrase "rollplay" but an advantage mechanic on class skills is exactly what that would encourage.

My own idea is to take a page from the PF Skill Focus playbook and have the +3 bonus increase once you hit a certain number of ranks in the skill. Say at 10 ranks it becomes +6, and then at 20 ranks (game is over) it becomes +10. This rewards characters who have X as a class skill and who devote themselves to keeping up with that skill as they level, letting them end up with a meaningful advantage over those who don't, as well as those who do via a dip but neglect to keep their training up. Meanwhile those who do both can keep up regardless of class. While a +3 untyped bonus can be easily overcome at mid-levels through buffs or attribute-boosting items, a +6 bonus is tougher, especially later on when opposed rolls are also keeping pace and getting the same boosts.

The Rogue meanwhile as the self-professed king of skills already has a leg up via the Rogue's Edge feature in Unchained.

[Lalliman]

That's an excellent idea. Much better than Pathfinder's favoured class system, which just encourages one-rank-dipping. Maybe spread the bonuses out a bit more for easier returns, e.g. +3 at rank 5, +6 at 10, +9 at 15, +12 at 20. Too many games don't even get to 10 to place the milestone there. Still doesn't solve the problem of casters rendering many skills unnecessary by mid-to-late game, but that's not something easily fixed.

[Psyren]

There does need to be an edge at rank 1, because low levels are when skills matter the utmost, and therefore they should also be when class skills matter the most too. It's so necessary to need a rogue to sneak for instance that the paladin and cleric should be in the tavern trying to recruit one.

Maybe something like:

Ranks 1-4: +3 bonus in your class skills
Ranks 5-9: +5 bonus
Ranks 10-14: +7 bonus
Ranks 15-19: +9 bonus
Rank 20: +12 bonus

[Squirrel_Dude]

The reason that skill checks don't auto-succeed on a natural 20 is because that'd allow you to, say, jump to the moon using acrobatics. Of course, no sane DM would allow that, but it'd place upon them the burden of deciding what is reasonably doable with a 20 and what isn't. Which just seems like needless work.

That aside, i'm not sure what you're trying to do here. You say you dislike the fact that raising a skill beyond a few ranks is inefficient, but you're proposing new rules that further encourage 1-rank-dipping. Did i misunderstand?No no, you're correct. I hadn't considered that, or at least not to it's rational end point. I think dipping will prove to be a problem regardless of how the class skills are improved. The better the benefit, the more dipping is encouraged.

Regardless I think that rerolls are an underutilized form of dice modification in 3.X games.

[IZ42]

Yeah, the way 5e, though I've never played it, does advantage versus disadvantage is great, and isretty much what you're describing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
My own idea is to take a page from the PF Skill Focus playbook and have the +3 bonus increase once you hit a certain number of ranks in the skill. Say at 10 ranks it becomes +6....

I had a DM last summer who did exactly this, although I think it was less a houserule than his own confusion between Skill Focus and ordinary class skills. The campaign fell apart after a couple months, so sadly we didn't get to see this in play.

As to Squirrel_Dude's earlier point about piddly +1/+2 bonuses, they hardly bother me and they've added up nicely on my current PF character, a dwarven oracle/bard who's a generalist loremaster. Noble Scion, Breadth of Experience, a trait here and a trait there, it all works out the way I like.

[Psyren]

Yeah, the way 5e, though I've never played it, does advantage versus disadvantage is great, and isretty much what you're describing.

That works for 5e because the power of advantage is easily kept in check. A single source of disadvantage can nullify any number of rerolls your character has, and the DM can impose it nearly any time they deem necessary. This is why rerolls can be so hard to get in 3e but so plentiful in 5e.

[Bhaakon]

How about giving skill unlocks to all classes, but only for class skills ?

[bekeleven]

How about, every time you roll a natural 20 in a class skill, you get an additional bonus equal to your ranks?

It's like the "auto-succeed on 20" but balanced and scalable.

Admittedly, it's rather smaller than the other bonuses being suggested...

[NightbringerGGZ]

How about giving skill unlocks to all classes, but only for class skills ?

Were I to write the next iteration of d20 fantasy rules, this would be my method of making class skills matter. It would require an expansion of what you can do with each skill, and possibly some class specific options.

Implementing this in PF as is weakens the UnRogue somewhat. My response to this is my home brew, where I just graft the Ninja's Ki abilities on the UnRogue and call it a day (merged with normal talents).

[Psyren]

How about giving skill unlocks to all classes, but only for class skills ?


How about, every time you roll a natural 20 in a class skill, you get an additional bonus equal to your ranks?

It's like the "auto-succeed on 20" but balanced and scalable.

Admittedly, it's rather smaller than the other bonuses being suggested...

I like both of these as well :smallbiggrin: They solve the "dip and single-rank" problem nicely, and they also dovetail with the way a lot of people already play.

[Bhaakon]

Implementing this in PF as is weakens the UnRogue somewhat. My response to this is my home brew, where I just graft the Ninja's Ki abilities on the UnRogue and call it a day (merged with normal talents).

It does hurt a bit to lose that exclusivity, it's true, so swapping out their Rogue's edge for more talents, feats, or a ki pool are a reasonable tradeoff. That being said, 8/lvl base skill points and loads of class skills leave the rogue in a better position than every other class to exploit this house rule.