Advice on a new character.

[Starchild7309]

Ok so I am starting new campaign in a week or so and I have come up with a concept, just need a little help fleshing it out. Stats after taking the human variant are as follows.

Str:12
Dex:18
Con:14
Int:11
Wis:11
Cha:14

I am planning on going Rogue first level. I spoke to my DM and he approved the use of the Spelless Ranger here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes . So I was going to follow up the rogue level with 2 variant ranger (for the maneuvers and the fighting style) and then throw in a level of warlock (the Great Old One), for the telepathy. After that just go straight rogue with the swashbuckler archetype. So this is where I have a few questions.

1. When I get the maneuvers from variant ranger, what 2 would be best to take?
2. I am taking dual wielding feat from variant human, but is that the best option?
3. I see my feats as progressing like this:

1st: Dual Wielding
7th:+2 Cha
11th: Alert Feat
13th: +2 Dex
15th: Skulker
19th: Sentinel (though I am not sure at all about that)

Is this sound? Are there other feats that would be more useful to a swashbuckler rogue? What other feats would you suggest, or perhaps a different order as to when to take feats?

4. Is this character sound in general?

Any suggestions or constructive advice would me greatly appreciated.

*edit* DM approved the multiclass for ranger with lower Wis than 13 since it is a spelless ranger. I offered to move stats around and he said there was no need.

[Daishain]

1.) You can't multiclass into Ranger without a 13 in Wis
2.) Dipping one level of Warlock just for a situational RP tool may not be the best idea. Is there anything else there you will be using?
3.) have you confirmed how high level you're going to get? Many campaigns never break the double digits, and multiclass combos often don't come into their own until late.
4.) What kind of campaign is being run? Are you looking at city intrigue, traditional dungeon slogging, or something else?

[EvilAnagram]

You'll get more damage out of the Savage Attacker feat than the Dual Wielder feat.

Telepathy isn't really good enough to sacrifice a level.

You can't multiclass into Ranger without 13 Wis.

Otherwise, solid ideas.

[Starchild7309]

I forgot to mention that DM ruled the multiclass without the Wis 13 was ok because of no spellcasting. I offered to move stats around and he said no need. The warlock level for the telepathy is there so that the Panache ability will workwith ever created, since I can then communicate with them.

[Starchild7309]

You'll get more damage out of the Savage Attacker feat than the Dual Wielder feat.


How so? The Dual wield feat allows me quickdraw on both my weapons, bumps my AC, and allows me rapiers vs. Shortswords. The savage attacker feat would only allow me to reroll 1d6 from the short sword.

[Daishain]

Ok, so what is your focus here? What are you trying to get out of this character?

[Starchild7309]

3.) have you confirmed how high level you're going to get? Many campaigns never break the double digits, and multiclass combos often don't come into their own until late.
4.) What kind of campaign is being run? Are you looking at city intrigue, traditional dungeon slogging, or something else?

Theoretically we will be going from 1-20+. The campaign is a prewritten adventure, not sure the name of it, but he has rewritten parts of it. This is his second time DMing and our group likes a mix of hack and slash with real good r/p thrown in. 50/50 mix I would say.

[Starchild7309]

Ok, so what is your focus here? What are you trying to get out of this character?

I am looking for a character that can be fun to play, but also useful through out the entire campaign, not a one trick pony persay. Combat wise I plan on using him to lock down problematic targets so the rest of the group can deal with underlings or such. He will also be scouting quite a bit and I want him to be able to hold his own in single combat for at least a few rounds till help can come if need be.

[EvilAnagram]

How so? The Dual wield feat allows me quickdraw on both my weapons, bumps my AC, and allows me rapiers vs. Shortswords. The savage attacker feat would only allow me to reroll 1d6 from the short sword.

Rerolling Sneak Attack provides more damage than the +2 of two rapiers.

[DracoKnight]

Rerolling Sneak Attack provides more damage than the +2 of two rapiers.

This is why I plan to take Savage Attacker on every Rogue I play, at some point in their adventuring career.

[Starchild7309]

This is why I plan to take Savage Attacker on every Rogue I play, at some point in their adventuring career.

Is there some place that says its sneak attack damage too? I asked my DM and he is under the impression its just weapon damage, but if I can point him to a particular place he might change his mind.

After doing some digging myself it would seem the consensus is that it is only the weapon's damage dice, not the SA also.

[EvilAnagram]

Is there some place that says its sneak attack damage too? I asked my DM and he is under the impression its just weapon damage, but if I can point him to a particular place he might change his mind.

After doing some digging myself it would seem the consensus is that it is only the weapon's damage dice, not the SA also.
I was basing my opinion on the fact that every other dice reroll mechanic in the game provides rerolls for all dice used, but I may be mistaken.

[Starchild7309]

I was basing my opinion on the fact that every other dice reroll mechanic in the game provides rerolls for all dice used, but I may be mistaken.

Normally I would agree, but it seems Savage Attacker specifies "weapon's damage dice."

[EvilAnagram]

Normally I would agree, but it seems Savage Attacker specifies "weapon's damage dice."

Good point. In light of that, unless there's a Sage Advice on it, I would say stick with Dual Wielding.

[Starchild7309]

I checked, no sage advice could be found.

Any other thoughts?

[Paeleus]

1. I like trip attack. It can impose advantage for another melee ally, take away movement from the baddie while also giving you another damage die. Not so good if you have ranged attack rolls coming from your comrades, so look to menacing attack in this case. If that fails to interest you, take Evasive Foot work for the AC (talk the details of this maneuver out with your dm) and Riposte to up your dpr by giving you options during the round.

2. I like it. I'd be interested in level 5 ranger for extra attack and 2 more maneuvers and dropping the warlock,but that's just me. Rogue is solid either way.

3. Lucky is an amazing feat. Just throwing that out there. >_> Sentinel

[Starchild7309]

1. I like trip attack. It can impose advantage for another melee ally, take away movement from the baddie while also giving you another damage die. Not so good if you have ranged attack rolls coming from your comrades, so look to menacing attack in this case. If that fails to interest you, take Evasive Foot work for the AC (talk the details of this maneuver out with your dm) and Riposte to up your dpr by giving you options during the round.

2. I like it. I'd be interested in level 5 ranger for extra attack and 2 more maneuvers and dropping the warlock,but that's just me. Rogue is solid either way.

3. Lucky is an amazing feat. Just throwing that out there. >_> Sentinel

Going to ranger 5 is a possibility, the extra attack would be nice. I do agree, Lucky does seem better than sentinel.
Still up in the air about what maneuvers to go with though.

[Citan]

Going to ranger 5 is a possibility, the extra attack would be nice. I do agree, Lucky does seem better than sentinel.
Still up in the air about what maneuvers to go with though.
Hi!

You got some answers already to your OP so I'll react to this post primarily.
If you are considering dipping as high as 6 levels outside Rogue (1 Warlock + 5 Ranger) to get an Extra Attack, I'd then suggest you multiclass into Battlemaster Fighter instead of Spellless Ranger.
You'll get much more for the same price: additional Fighting Style (Mariner or Defense), Action Surge, proficiency in an artisan's tools, and the exact same number of Manoeuvers and Superiority Dice (except you have them at 3rd level).

On the same state of mind, if you're dipping Warlock, dipping another level would provide much better return on investment, with several Invocations being useful for combat or RP.

IF, on the contrary, you want to get your Rogue class as high as possible, then indeed Ranger 2 / Warlock 1 (if you really want telepathy) or Fighter 3 would be the best choice.

As for when to dip, I'd say at least after lvl 4 Rogue to max DEX, then as soon as you feel you can manage it (immediately if you have no problem surviving, otherwise wait lvl 8 for Evasion, better SA and another ASI).

[djreynolds]

Rogue with fighter or even bard for this. 3 levels of fighter.

Or pump up intelligence and go arcane trickster and you won't lose you sneak attack progression.

You have a 14 in charisma so bard is a viable addition.

But why not just pump wisdom for the ranger, his spells are worth it, other wise take 1 0r 2 from fighter.

Add a point in strength and snag paladin. Dual wield two short swords and don't worry about your dexterity bonus on your offhand when you can smite instead and sneak attack.

Also remember your sneak attack works as long as a comrade is bashing the same opponent so valor bard which you qualify for at fifth level gives you a second attack, same as ranger, paladin, or fighter.

If you don't plan to pump up wisdom for the ranger, grab valor bard or paladin to take advantage of that charisma score. Skulker is nice, but you can grab something for darkvision or a spell.

The martial adept feat and/or battlemaster three levels you can snag precision and parry, precision is nice to make sure those sneak attacks hit.

[INDYSTAR188]

A new player in my upcoming HotDQ game is leaning towards the spell-less ranger variant. I told him my only concern was that Hunters Mark seems like such an important boost to damage and it's iconic too. Have you considered this and is that at all a concern?

[Starchild7309]

A new player in my upcoming HotDQ game is leaning towards the spell-less ranger variant. I told him my only concern was that Hunters Mark seems like such an important boost to damage and it's iconic too. Have you considered this and is that at all a concern?

I am not so concerned with the loss of the spells, hunter's mark in particular. The role I will be playing will be very melee oriented and at least in my experience, concentration spells don't tend to last very long anyway. As this build will mostly be rogue anyway I am not worried about losing the iconic flavor of a level or two of ranger.

[djreynolds]

I am not so concerned with the loss of the spells, hunter's mark in particular. The role I will be playing will be very melee oriented and at least in my experience, concentration spells don't tend to last very long anyway. As this build will mostly be rogue anyway I am not worried about losing the iconic flavor of a level or two of ranger.

May I ask Starchild, or Paul Stanley why ranger? Check out the character guides, the death dealers handbook: a guide for assassins. Awesome melee rogue builds in there that you may find ideas from.

[Starchild7309]

May I ask Starchild, or Paul Stanley why ranger? Check out the character guides, the death dealers handbook: a guide for assassins. Awesome melee rogue builds in there that you may find ideas from.

Well let me first say I am not looking for a nova build which assassins tend to be. I originally thought ranger, thinking back to 3.5 ranger before I really read over ranger in 5.0. I wanted a hunter rogue, someone that could track down an enemy and be devastating to it. However, rangers really don't have the feel I want in 5.0.

My next thought was to drop the ranger altogether and go Rogue X/Warlock 5/Fighter 1. I pick up and extra attack at War 5 and have some nifty abilities. The one level of fighter lets me get the fighting style I want, but I do lose one Stat increase over the entire life of the build and also lose medium armor. Though I kind of think that I prefer this build.

My question with that becomes this then. Should I just blow out 4 rogue levels or go rogue, ranger, ranger, walrlock and finish out with all rogue then? Or is there a better way to go about? If i go about it with the ranger levels, I would get the Variant feat at 1st and then a Stat adjustment or feat at Rogue 4,8,10,12, &16. So I could throw in another level of Warlock, but two would cause me to lose a stat adjustment. Though if I go with Rogue 14/Warlock 5/Fighter 1 I lose maneuvers, but gain a second attack and some buff spells and the ability to use and abuse Darkness and Devil's Sight once per short rest.



Basically it comes down to a 6 of one/half a dozen of the other. What's more important? Another attack per round and some helpful abilities or manuevers and another stat increase? From what I am seeing it kind of depends on how the player feels about it. Machanically I am not sure one is better than the other? Kind of the whole point of this post though. I played a lot of 3.5 all the way up until last month to be honest and with that system its very much (A) is better than (B), here is the math to prove it.

[PoeticDwarf]

How so? The Dual wield feat allows me quickdraw on both my weapons, bumps my AC, and allows me rapiers vs. Shortswords. The savage attacker feat would only allow me to reroll 1d6 from the short sword.

That's true, dual wielder is underrated but with the fighting style it becomes a 2d8+8 damage a round, with an AC of 17 / first level. Dual wielding is for rogue the strongest choice. Even for a rogue/ranger. The reroll 1d6 would give you an average damage of 0,75 more. Instead of 2 more and 1 AC more.

[Ultimate_Coffee]

If you are looking for a Hunter Rogue with a Warlock flare, this is how I would handle it...

1.) Rogue(Sneak Attack, Expertise, Skills, etc.)
2-3.) Spell-less Ranger(Tracking Benefits vs. Favored Enemy, Fighting Style, Combat Maneuvers)
4-10.) Rogue(Sneak Attack Progression, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, etc.)
11.) Warlock(Telepathy)
12.) Rogue(Panache)
13-14.) Warlock(Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker)
15-18.) Rogue(Sneak Attack Progression, Reliable Talent, etc.)
19.) Warlock(Feat/ASI)
20.) Spell-less Ranger(Hunter Archetype)

This would give you a strong Rogue, with extra attack via Thirsting Blade, Dex and Cha to damage via Lifedrinker, and some decent Hunter abilities via Ranger levels.

You would get feats at the following levels:
1.) Variant Human
6.) Rogue lvl.4
10.) Rogue lvl.8
15.) Rogue lvl.10
17.) Rogue lvl.12
19.) Warlock lvl.4

[JAL_1138]

Rogue with fighter or even bard for this. 3 levels of fighter.

Or pump up intelligence and go arcane trickster and you won't lose you sneak attack progression.

You have a 14 in charisma so bard is a viable addition.

But why not just pump wisdom for the ranger, his spells are worth it, other wise take 1 0r 2 from fighter.

Add a point in strength and snag paladin. Dual wield two short swords and don't worry about your dexterity bonus on your offhand when you can smite instead and sneak attack.

Also remember your sneak attack works as long as a comrade is bashing the same opponent so valor bard which you qualify for at fifth level gives you a second attack, same as ranger, paladin, or fighter.

If you don't plan to pump up wisdom for the ranger, grab valor bard or paladin to take advantage of that charisma score. Skulker is nice, but you can grab something for darkvision or a spell.

The martial adept feat and/or battlemaster three levels you can snag precision and parry, precision is nice to make sure those sneak attacks hit.

Valor Bard's second attack comes at 6th, not 5th.

[Starchild7309]

That's true, dual wielder is underrated but with the fighting style it becomes a 2d8+8 damage a round, with an AC of 17 / first level. Dual wielding is for rogue the strongest choice. Even for a rogue/ranger. The reroll 1d6 would give you an average damage of 0,75 more. Instead of 2 more and 1 AC more.

In regards to Savage Attacker, I have decided to not even bother. for a meager bump in damage over the life of the character I would prefer the AC since I will be acting as a bit of an off tank most likely in the later levels, someone to deal with minions while the main group goes after BBEG. I would rather have the AC bump.

[djreynolds]

So your want to play ranger isn't for optimization? My kid and I rolled new characters. I said imagine what you want and be that. Of course I went online for female rogues images, and now really hate the anime group........ But she found a concept and I took three antacid.

I like ranger. Drizzt is the reason I go to the bookstore. I like Artemis. I find a lot players like the ranger class out there. And I'm glad weapon specialization is gone.

Warlocks are cool. Can be a combat Jedi, or tradition caster in league with evil.

I guess what do you see. How do you see yourself killing in combat? It's actually a good indicator for a path to follow.