Skill Focus is OP! Or, more **** my DM says.

[Talakeal]

Rant incoming:

So recently I was playing a ranger who, do to the DM's odd house rules and other players dropping out of the game or making really weird builds was forced to try and perform every party roll at once and failed at all of them. We had a near TPK which left half the party dead and my ranger permanently blinded, so I decided to retire the character and make something more useful.

I kept asking the party what they wanted me to play and what role was needed, and the DM kept saying things like "Don't worry about that. Play whatever character you want to play. If the party is missing a role I will just balance the encounters with that in mind. Play for yourself, not them."

So I decided to try and make a character I had always wanted to play. Essentially a she was a chosen one raised in a monastery as a healer and saint, but decided that she wanted to actually perform a more pragmatic role in actively fighting evil, as well as exert her independence, and left the monastery to become a bounty hunter and wandering doctor.

So the character is a multiclass paladin / ranger. I have an 18 wisdom and took skill focus healing to represent my upbringing and day job as a surgeon.

I gave the DM my character sheet, he saw a +13 heal skill at third level, and asked how that was possible. I said, class skill for paladin, max ranks, 18 wisdom, and skill focus. He said hell no, that is way too OP and he doesn't allow that sort of min maxing in the game and that skill focus was banned for being ridiculously OP.

Then I said that it wasn't a power gaming thing, my concept was that I was a prodigy when it came to healing and it was an important part of my concept. He then told me that the rogue (another new character) was also playing a character who had been a surgeon, and he would not allow two characters with a healer concept in the same party as it would be stepping on the rogues toes, and the rogue had already gotten character approval, so I needed to come up with a new background.

Now, keep in mind the quote above about playing "what I wanted to play and not worrying about the rest of the party".

At that point I said "Well, back to the drawing board then." Ripped up my character sheet and threw it in the garbage and pulled out a fresh sheet. The DM then pouted for the entire rest of the evening and took his frustrations out on the rest of the party who continued playing while I made a new character sheet.

At the end of the evening I presented a generic fighter, focused on sword and board style because the rest of the party lacked the power to take a hit. This character was also banned for having a 21 AC at level four, which he said was, once again, ridiculously OP and min maxxed and said that with an AC that high I am practically invincible, and any monster that could challenge me would wipe the floor with the rest of the party and it is just too big a challenge. Keep in mind that this is only 2 AC higher than the next highest in the party btw.


Seriously, I need to figure out a way to leave this group without it biting me in the butt.

[torrasque666]

Roll20.net says hi.

[noob]

Well it is a lot the phenomenon that the GM would like to choose the characters of the players(like in 54745383648546946352237 rpg systems and gm) but it too much lazy to create them and do think it would be awesome if the players read his mind and did exactly the characters he wanted and choose them better than what he would have done and so it is why he said "do whatever character you want" while in fact if he did not disliked creating character himself he would have done the job.
So if you like to build your own character you are right to leave the group.
The way to leave a group is to say that you just do not want to play with it(and you can add layers of politeness above it if you want).

[Malimar]

Skill focus(heal) is min-maxing?
Skill focus(heal) is min-maxing?
Skill focus(heal)... is min-maxing?
:smallmad:

[Larkas]

Seriously, I need to figure out a way to leave this group without it biting me in the butt.

Good advice: "yeah, guys, give me a call if you want me to be part of the group."

Bad advice: play a wizard.

[noob]

Elven worse advice; play planar shepherd of the far realms.

[Eldan]

It's something I've seen with some people who don't really know the system.

Big looking numbers are overpowered. Especially if you also roll multiple dice.

The solution is to play a spellcaster who looks fragile and doesn't do blasting. The DM will not see high numbers, so he'll be happy.

[noob]

The planar shepherd of the far realms have an advantage which is not a number: he can have infinite time while others have no time thanks to his planar bubble giving him infinitely fast time.
Also remember him the definition of min maxing: it is obtaining the maximum value possible even if it hampers you in other values and you know you can reach 250 first healing at super low level by doing min maxing not 13

[AvatarVecna]

Put together a Bard focused on buffing and skillmonkeying. You'll be completely responsible for the party's success at curbstomping everything, and nobody will accuse you of being overpowered, because you're a bard.

[noob]

Or even do a sublime chord bard and take only cheater spells(like PAO or time stop or gate or wish or shapechange(cast it on the party fighter with a ring of spell transfer) or simulacrum and so on) and no damage spells nor spells having high values.
then manage to never use your cheater spells in a way looking abusive like for example only do a bunch of simulacrum and make them have the smallest possible screen time and use time stop only while you are facing overwhelming odds and never when you could beat opponents normally.

[Gabrosin]

Skill Focus (Heal) is definitely min-maxing. Specifically, minning.

Sounds like you need a new group.

[AvatarVecna]

The build I like using for things like that is Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 2/Uncanny Trickster +2/Mindbender 1/Archmage 5, using Early Entry tricks to get into War Weaver early and using Uncanny Trickster to advance your War Weaver class features and using War Weaver casting progression to advance Sublime Chord. You end up with casting as a Bard 8/Sublime Chord 10, you can put up to 7th level spells in your War Weaver weave thing, you've got that Mindbender dip giving you 100ft Telepathy, and you've got Archmage bonus tricks for your casting. Oh, and you've got a few interesting Bardic Music thigns you can do.

[atemu1234]

Play a Wizard. Demonstrate Min-Maxing.

[Flickerdart]

using Early Entry tricks
I really don't think any DM that considers Skill Focus to be OP is going to let early entry tricks slide.

[Eldan]

Play a Wizard. Demonstrate Min-Maxing.

What would that accomplish? Do you honestly think the DM would go "Oh great optimizer, you have shown this humble fool the light, skill focus is not overpowered, please take it?"

Showing someone who thinks something is overpowered something even stronger will not make them reconsider. IT will only fortify their opinion of you as a powergamer.

[noob]

Show him how other people on this forum are infinitely crazy min maxers who even take ranks in truenaming without taking levels in truenamer.
Or even simply create omnipotently omnipotent characters.

[Flickerdart]

What would that accomplish? Do you honestly think the DM would go "Oh great optimizer, you have shown this humble fool the light, skill focus is not overpowered, please take it?"

Showing someone who thinks something is overpowered something even stronger will not make them reconsider. IT will only fortify their opinion of you as a powergamer.
Yeah, pretty much. If you're intent on staying in such a low-power game yet still feel the urge to optimize, spread yourself out a bit. If possible, check the other characters' sheets and make sure none of your numbers exceed their best stats. Your AC should be equal to the highest AC. Your attack bonus should be equal to the highest attack bonus. Your damage should be equal to the highest damage. For any skill another player invests into, make sure yours is not higher.

As a result, you'll suck as much as they do, but you'll be able to be useful in every situation the others are.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Did he actually took your character sheet and ripped it off in front of you? I don't know what to say, honestly at this point you don't need to say anything to him. Simply walk away from the table and NEVER EVER go back there. If he asks for a reason you are in your right to tell the DM that you are not having fun in his game, that you are sick of him vetoing any character you bring to his table and that you've had enough of his control issues.

[martixy]

A bit of unsolicited advice to your random rant:

Walk away.

[torrasque666]

Did he actually took your character sheet and ripped it off in front of you? I don't know what to say, honestly at this point you don't need to say anything to him. Simply walk away from the table and NEVER EVER go back there. If he asks for a reason you are in your right to tell the DM that you are not having fun in his game, that you are sick of him vetoing any character you bring to his table and that you've had enough of his control issues.

Nah man, Talakeal did the ripping and tossing. But yeah, control issues.

[Crake]

Did he actually took your character sheet and ripped it off in front of you? I don't know what to say, honestly at this point you don't need to say anything to him. Simply walk away from the table and NEVER EVER go back there. If he asks for a reason you are in your right to tell the DM that you are not having fun in his game, that you are sick of him vetoing any character you bring to his table and that you've had enough of his control issues.

From what I read, it looks like the OP tore up his own character sheet, not the GM.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You know, this is one of the few things I've actually feel happy about misreading something.

[Troacctid]

Ripping up your character sheet and throwing it in the trash is pretty passive-aggressive. I mean I realize the DM was being dumb but that was uncalled for.

Anyway, just play a pregenerated sample character and make up a backstory for them. Then your DM can't complain, since it's ripped directly from the book.

[The Vagabond]

I'm in agreement for everyone above- You should probably just walk away. That- Or take the mantle of DM yourself, and provide advice for everyone.

If you feel like being dumb, play something incredibly stupid- A Lute-Wielding pixie bard who is both buffer and utility, who dances around singing fairy songs with a magic wand she uses to tap people and apply buffs to make everyone into living gods. Preferably, she should be wearing bright, florescent pink fairy outfit, and should generally seem as innocent as physically possible.

[SangoProduction]

Well. As the saying goes: "No game > bad game". If you aren't having fun, there are much, much better things you could spending your 4 - 12 hours a session than playing in it. I mean, if you wanted something that you felt like was a chore, you may as well get paid for it, or clean your house.

[dascarletm]

From what I read, it looks like the OP tore up his own character sheet, not the GM.


Ripping up your character sheet and throwing it in the trash is pretty passive-aggressive. I mean I realize the DM was being dumb but that was uncalled for.

Anyway, just play a pregenerated sample character and make up a backstory for them. Then your DM can't complain, since it's ripped directly from the book.

Got to +1 Troacctid. Basically instead of voicing your frustration to the DM it seems you two are in a cold war of sorts. No one is going to win. I don't know how close you two are, but this is what I would say:

"I keep making characters to play in your game, but they keep getting veto'd. I'd like to play, and honestly these characters arn't that powerful. I want to work together with you to come up with a character that will fit into this campaign. Would you like to work alongside me as I make the next one?"

That's what I would do. However if you want some help making an underpowered character, I can do that! I'm terrible at optimizing... sure to meet your DMs approval.:smallwink:

[Turion]

-snip-

At the end of the evening I presented a generic fighter, focused on sword and board style because the rest of the party lacked the power to take a hit. This character was also banned for having a 21 AC at level four, which he said was, once again, ridiculously OP and min maxxed and said that with an AC that high I am practically invincible, and any monster that could challenge me would wipe the floor with the rest of the party and it is just too big a challenge.


That's heavy plate, a shield, and 12 Dex, yes?

Your DM literally told you that pants are overpowered.

[Malimar]

Your DM literally told you that pants are overpowered.

But pants are overpowered, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. This is why they're banned at my table.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Again? Talakeal, you poor bastard. Where do you live? I need to make sure I never try to join a game there, ever.

But yeah. Walk away. Either this guy doesn't even have his **** in the same state, or he has it out for you. Even if you get a character approved-- perhaps by having him build it for you-- he'll almost certainly only wind up pulling more painfully incompetent/****ish moves later on.

[Red Fel]

Again? Talakeal, you poor bastard. Where do you live? I need to make sure I never try to join a game there, ever.

But yeah. Walk away. Either this guy doesn't even have his **** in the same state, or he has it out for you. Even if you get a character approved-- perhaps by having him build it for you-- he'll almost certainly only wind up pulling more painfully incompetent/****ish moves later on.

This.

Look, Tala, you come in here quite frequently, and air perfectly legitimate grievances against this DM. One might argue that you have the patience of a saint (or the masochism of a martyr) for putting up with it as long as you have. If this isn't trolling, it's outright depressing.

You need to move on. You need to get out of there. And every time you start one of these threads, and I feel for you, you follow it up by saying you can't leave. And every time you post another of these threads, it seems harder to justify.

Go, man. Just go. If it's so life-threatening that you are totally incapable of leaving physically, be absent mentally. Take out your phone and sit in the corner. Play a Game Boy. Hell, grab some cards and play Solitaire. Eventually, you will be asked to leave. When that happens, you have your freedom. For the love of everything, take it.

I don't care if there's no other gaming in your area. PbP is a thing. Roll20 is a thing. There are things.

Your DM is terrible, but the longer you keep insisting that you have to stay with him, the more it ceases to be a case of his fault for bad DMing, and the more it becomes your fault for choosing to gratify his bad DMing with your presence.

To further emphasize my point, here's Moss:

http://collegetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tumblr_lrjxo6o7ib1qeuigl.gif

And Ferris:

http://i.imgur.com/AIucszX.gif

And Doc Holliday:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/disneycreate/images/8/82/39400-Val-Kilmer-you-may-go-now-gif-Etao.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140119020559

How many more people need to tell you to leave?

[AvatarVecna]

I really don't think any DM that considers Skill Focus to be OP is going to let early entry tricks slide.

Fair enough, then it seems the Super-High PO build will have to wait. Instead, play a Bard 7/Mindbender 1/War Weaver 1/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver +4/Uncanny Trickster +2/Archmage 2. It's not quite as all-powerful, but it's close enough.

[Max Caysey]

Rant incoming:

So recently I was playing a ranger who, do to the DM's odd house rules and other players dropping out of the game or making really weird builds was forced to try and perform every party roll at once and failed at all of them. We had a near TPK which left half the party dead and my ranger permanently blinded, so I decided to retire the character and make something more useful.

I kept asking the party what they wanted me to play and what role was needed, and the DM kept saying things like "Don't worry about that. Play whatever character you want to play. If the party is missing a role I will just balance the encounters with that in mind. Play for yourself, not them."

So I decided to try and make a character I had always wanted to play. Essentially a she was a chosen one raised in a monastery as a healer and saint, but decided that she wanted to actually perform a more pragmatic role in actively fighting evil, as well as exert her independence, and left the monastery to become a bounty hunter and wandering doctor.

So the character is a multiclass paladin / ranger. I have an 18 wisdom and took skill focus healing to represent my upbringing and day job as a surgeon.

I gave the DM my character sheet, he saw a +13 heal skill at third level, and asked how that was possible. I said, class skill for paladin, max ranks, 18 wisdom, and skill focus. He said hell no, that is way too OP and he doesn't allow that sort of min maxing in the game and that skill focus was banned for being ridiculously OP.

Then I said that it wasn't a power gaming thing, my concept was that I was a prodigy when it came to healing and it was an important part of my concept. He then told me that the rogue (another new character) was also playing a character who had been a surgeon, and he would not allow two characters with a healer concept in the same party as it would be stepping on the rogues toes, and the rogue had already gotten character approval, so I needed to come up with a new background.

Now, keep in mind the quote above about playing "what I wanted to play and not worrying about the rest of the party".

At that point I said "Well, back to the drawing board then." Ripped up my character sheet and threw it in the garbage and pulled out a fresh sheet. The DM then pouted for the entire rest of the evening and took his frustrations out on the rest of the party who continued playing while I made a new character sheet.

At the end of the evening I presented a generic fighter, focused on sword and board style because the rest of the party lacked the power to take a hit. This character was also banned for having a 21 AC at level four, which he said was, once again, ridiculously OP and min maxxed and said that with an AC that high I am practically invincible, and any monster that could challenge me would wipe the floor with the rest of the party and it is just too big a challenge. Keep in mind that this is only 2 AC higher than the next highest in the party btw.


Seriously, I need to figure out a way to leave this group without it biting me in the butt.

Just leave. Never show up again. He is not Only an imbicil, but also a jerk.

[bean illus]

Yeah, pretty much. If you're intent on staying in such a low-power game yet still feel the urge to optimize, spread yourself out a bit. If possible, check the other characters' sheets and make sure none of your numbers exceed their best stats. Your AC should be equal to the highest AC. Your attack bonus should be equal to the highest attack bonus. Your damage should be equal to the highest damage. For any skill another player invests into, make sure yours is not higher.

As a result, you'll suck as much as they do, but you'll be able to be useful in every situation the others are.

This is my vote^^^.

Make it a project. A Martial Rouge/Cleric would look innocent enough. Or Bard.

[Sir Chuckles]

Fair enough, then it seems the Super-High PO build will have to wait. Instead, play a Bard 7/Mindbender 1/War Weaver 1/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver +4/Uncanny Trickster +2/Archmage 2. It's not quite as all-powerful, but it's close enough.

Too many classes on one character. I believe we've seen this DM get mad at multiclassing.

If you genuinely cannot leave the game without it costing you something genuinely instrumental to your well being, go to a random NPC generator, and just do a randomly generated character. I recommend Mythweavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_npc.php?), editing the feats to avoid a situation like this. Or open up the D&D Iconics and copy/paste, making sure to change the name and fix the feat and skill errors.

[AvatarVecna]

Too many classes on one character. I believe we've seen this DM get mad at multiclassing.

If you genuinely cannot leave the game without it costing you something genuinely instrumental to your well being, go to a random NPC generator, and just do a randomly generated character. I recommend Mythweavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_npc.php?), editing the feats to avoid a situation like this. Or open up the D&D Iconics and copy/paste, making sure to change the name and fix the feat and skill errors.

Even straight Bard/Sublime Chord is, while debatably unoptimized, still a full caster with 9th level spells and some bardic music. Hardly terrible, even if it's not as perfect as I'd like.

But yeah. You either need to build something that isn't going to be auto-killed by DM banhammer or you need to get out. Red Fel's got it right: your DM is so consistently horrid, I can't see how RL gaming can possibly be so valuable as to make such suffering worth the prize. What are you getting out of this game that you can't get elsewhere?

...that is, unless you're actually being held against your will and forced to play D&D with this guy. I'd like to say that I don't think that's the case, but at this point I can't figure out how else your DM would get players to consistently return to their game.

[Max Caysey]

Show him this thread. Or if you cant leave, just go, without playing!

[Threadnaught]

Maybe you could explain to the DM that you don't know how to make a character without power gaming because you don't know/have forgotten how to roleplay, then leave?

I'm seriously suggesting you abuse the Stormwind Fallacy as a serious argument to get you out of the group without causing any hard feelings. Maybe it'll work, the DM doesn't seem to have all too great a grasp on the mechanics, so maybe they'll accept the fallacy as a reasonable argument.

[Ger. Bessa]

That's heavy plate, a shield, and 12 Dex, yes?

Your DM literally told you that pants are overpowered.

I have the perfect character concept : Play Youngster Joey.

Pick a class with either familiar or animal companion.
Choose a rat. (Nicknamed "tata")
Wear shorts. (They are comfy and easy to wear)
Remember everyone that your rat(tata) is in the top percentage of all rats.

Spend the rest of your class features buffing him. Defy anyone who has another familiar/animal companion.


Or leave.

[Crake]

I have the perfect character concept : Play Youngster Joey.

Pick a class with either familiar or animal companion.
Choose a rat. (Nicknamed "tata")
Wear shorts. (They are comfy and easy to wear)
Remember everyone that your rat(tata) is in the top percentage of all rats.

Spend the rest of your class features buffing him. Defy anyone who has another familiar/animal companion.


Or leave.

Commoner with wild cohort, done.

[Keltest]

Serious question, what is it this DM has over you that is preventing you from leaving? I seem to recall you mentioning before that he basically guilts you back in, but you are pretty obviously having a terrible time with this guy.

[Angelmaker]

Show him this thread. Or if you cant leave, just go, without playing!

I second this. I would seriously like to hear your GM's side of this.

I have seen so many threads that began one sided and took a one eighty once the other party was involved.

Either it blows up and youll need witness protection or you will finally find a solution to your gaming problems. Either way, i have read quite a few of your posts and while I cannot remember too many details, i remember feeling sorry for you. So go do something about it and if you live in an european time zone, i will slot you into my eberron campaign on roll 20.

[Bronk]

Can you at least get a list of this DMs house rules so he or she doesn't keep surprising you?

[Talakeal]

Can you at least get a list of this DMs house rules so he or she doesn't keep surprising you?

He doesnt "have the time to write them all down."

I suspect in reality he is just making up bans on the fly because he gets off on telling people no. He does it with rules as well as Rp stuff. Heck, he even loves to tell people they are wrong when when we are telling stories or discussing non gaming events around the table, correcting us about things which he has no idea about.

Very frustrating.

Also bards are banned, and if I tried to play a wizard he would just on the fly nerf or ban every spell I use.

[noob]

Why is bard banned?
Is cleric allowed(with that domain with time stop and PAO you can do a lot of nice things and that is without trying to do a correct priest)

[Grod_The_Giant]

To everyone proposing powerful builds: it doesn't matter what you suggest, it won't fly. The GM will either reject it out of hand ("you used too many classes! Munchkin!") or throw a fit as soon as he sees it do something useful. If we want to be productive, maybe try to come up with aggressively low-op builds that would still be interesting to play?

[Talakeal]

Playing right now. He is chewing me out for filling out my character sheet wrong, as I included my armor check penalty as a misc modifer to my skills. He made me rewrite it becase "penalties are not modifiers."

Need to figure out how to storm out without looking like the bad guy.

[IZ42]

Why can't you just ask the other players about what they think of his behavior? If they all dislike it, have someone confront him about the situation and how nobody likes it, or switch over to a new GM.

EDIT: Your last post tells me he's also anal retentive and needlessly pedantic. Tell him it adds up to the same thing and don't change it.

[frogglesmash]

I realize that a lot of people are saying you should leave the game because no game>a bad game, and while this is probably true most of the time I really want to join your table. I need to satisfy my morbid curiosity and find out what kind of person could be so aggressively bad at DMing. I'm not even joking, if you could figure out some way for me to join your game (even just for a couple sessions) that would be great.

[TheIronGolem]

Need to figure out how to storm out without looking like the bad guy.

No, you don't. Just go. Stop worrying about what you'll look like, because that's his hold on you. He only has this leverage over you because you give it to him. Stop doing that.

[Malimar]

Playing right now. He is chewing me out for filling out my character sheet wrong, as I included my armor check penalty as a misc modifer to my skills. He made me rewrite it becase "penalties are not modifiers."

:smallannoyed:
:smallmad:
:smallfurious:
Not only is he being needlessly pedantic, he's wrong about his needless pedantry.

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

[Blackhawk748]

This.

Look, Tala, you come in here quite frequently, and air perfectly legitimate grievances against this DM. One might argue that you have the patience of a saint (or the masochism of a martyr) for putting up with it as long as you have. If this isn't trolling, it's outright depressing.

You need to move on. You need to get out of there. And every time you start one of these threads, and I feel for you, you follow it up by saying you can't leave. And every time you post another of these threads, it seems harder to justify.

Go, man. Just go. If it's so life-threatening that you are totally incapable of leaving physically, be absent mentally. Take out your phone and sit in the corner. Play a Game Boy. Hell, grab some cards and play Solitaire. Eventually, you will be asked to leave. When that happens, you have your freedom. For the love of everything, take it.

I don't care if there's no other gaming in your area. PbP is a thing. Roll20 is a thing. There are things.

Your DM is terrible, but the longer you keep insisting that you have to stay with him, the more it ceases to be a case of his fault for bad DMing, and the more it becomes your fault for choosing to gratify his bad DMing with your presence.

To further emphasize my point, here's Moss:

http://collegetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tumblr_lrjxo6o7ib1qeuigl.gif

And Ferris:

http://i.imgur.com/AIucszX.gif

And Doc Holliday:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/disneycreate/images/8/82/39400-Val-Kilmer-you-may-go-now-gif-Etao.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140119020559

How many more people need to tell you to leave?

This, all this. Listen to your Friendly Neighborhood Overlord. Also play this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g) as you leave. This person doesnt deserve your time, cut your loses and go man, who cares what he thinks of you.
http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/tehclarissa/Frank-Underwood-This-is-the-part-where-you-leave-GIF-from-House-Of-Cards_zps53761446.gif

[Red Fel]

This, all this. Listen to your Friendly Neighborhood Overlord. Also play this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g) as you leave. This person doesnt deserve your time, cut your loses and go man, who cares what he thinks of you.
http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/tehclarissa/Frank-Underwood-This-is-the-part-where-you-leave-GIF-from-House-Of-Cards_zps53761446.gif

I'd end it with a bit more class. I'd play this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t6REvOGZtE).

If you have to leave - and you, my friend, have got to leave - do it with style.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lybkrfSU5r1qdshi4o1_500.gif

[KingSmitty]

you could probably get away with min maxing with a monk, he'd never expect it.

seriously though, get out of there. No D&D > Bad D&D

[Enran]

You want to storm out without seeming like a jerk? Just say, "Listen, guys, I've been trying to make this work, but I think the things that I have fun with are different than the things you guys have fun with, and every attempt I've made at finding a middle ground has just stretched things more between us. If everybody is having less fun because of me being here, then it would be selfish of me to stay. I hope you enjoy the rest of your campaign."

[arclance]

But pants are overpowered, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. This is why they're banned at my table.
I really want to sig this.

Also get out of that game.
I have been to "random ban and nerf" town myself, no game is worth going there.
"Can't or won't give you a house rules document" village is also somewhere you don't want to be.

[Malimar]

I really want to sig this.

Go ahead if you so desire. I'm glad to be of some amusement.

[Bronk]

Well, if you do end up trying to stick out the rest of the session, I hope you actually get to play, unlike last time...

[arclance]

Go ahead if you so desire. I'm glad to be of some amusement.
Thanks, these threads can always use some humor to lighten the mood.

[OldTrees1]

Playing right now. He is chewing me out for filling out my character sheet wrong, as I included my armor check penalty as a misc modifer to my skills. He made me rewrite it becase "penalties are not modifiers."

Need to figure out how to storm out without looking like the bad guy.

Do you have a life outside D&D? If so then I expect you have experienced times when IRL has been more or less demanding of your time. If it became more demanding(or if you merely vaguely* said it did) you might have to drop one of the 2 games you are in(hint hint).

Don't try to figure how to storm out. A face saving storm out takes more time to plan and we all want to safely out of that **** game sooner rather than later.

*The key is to be vague. Don't make a lie that can be found out, make the truthful statement that school/work/family has become a bit more time consuming lately and you need to step down your gaming.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm just going to add my two cents once more: get out, do it with style, and don't look back. I will return later with gifs to support this, in the hopes that it does some good somehow.

[Andezzar]

Playing right now. He is chewing me out for filling out my character sheet wrong, as I included my armor check penalty as a misc modifer to my skills. He made me rewrite it becase "penalties are not modifiers."

Need to figure out how to storm out without looking like the bad guy.What's keeping you from honestly telling the DM or the group as a whole that what the DM is doing is no fun for you? Is he your significant other or family?
How does the DM guilt you into coming back?

Do you know if the DM used to be on this forum? His style reminds me of jedipotter.

BTW what are the other characters? Do their players also get flak for playing competently?

Have you ever thought about DMing yourself? Just offer to the group without advertising that you will do many things differently than the previous DM. The players can make up their mind which style they like better.


you could probably get away with min maxing with a monk, he'd never expect it.

seriously though, get out of there. No D&D > Bad D&DMonks are overpowered! They get two attacks and a bonus feat at level 1.

[Username.]

Yeah, pretty much. If you're intent on staying in such a low-power game yet still feel the urge to optimize, spread yourself out a bit. If possible, check the other characters' sheets and make sure none of your numbers exceed their best stats. Your AC should be equal to the highest AC. Your attack bonus should be equal to the highest attack bonus. Your damage should be equal to the highest damage. For any skill another player invests into, make sure yours is not higher.

As a result, you'll suck as much as they do, but you'll be able to be useful in every situation the others are.

With respect: this won't work.

The DM is incompetent. Full. Stop. He is bad at his job. If he becomes aggressive and obnoxious due to his incompetence, then he is a bad person, but that is not the point at hand here. He is bad at his job.

As such, he will misidentify weak characters as strong. Thus, playing a deliberately weak character will still cause him to act like a spoiled three-year-old.

In addition, persons upthread who were telling the OP to play a wizard are, ironically enough, completely correct. Incompetent DMs of this sort will be unable to identify the wizard as powerful merely because the chassis and power schedule difference confuses them. This sort of thing has been going on for decades. Ranger gets kicked for dual weilding, wizard gets praised for black tentacling smartly. The wizard is safer because it is harder to parse.

You are in serious Dunning-Kruger territory, and that geography leads us to point two:

That said, OP: You Should Leave. Now.

We're getting back to the "DM is a jerk" factor. The DM is a liar and a cheater. He changes the rules mid-play and lies about character generation guidelines. He's not a good person irl -- screw the game. There is no game because there are no rules.

Every time you play with that guy, you are encouraging him to be a jerk to others. You have a reasonable, adult conversation that explains how much a jerk he is and you leave -- and you tell all present to stop putting up with his mess.

You are helping him to:

a) make other people miserable.
b) make others dislike the hobby.

Point (b) is an unpardonable sin against geekdom.

You are acting as a co-dependent enabler. Do both he and yourself and, most importantly, the group a favor. Leave.

And I strongly suggest that you DM a one-shot for the others in the group, just to show people that non-obnoxious DMing can be done.

Edit: The proper way to leave is to invite others to play with you as DM (or with another person DMing). Feel free to talk to each person privately beforehand. Don't even bother hiding the fact that you're taking them aside one by one -- you're wasting time already, so you might as well put said time to immediate use.

[marphod]

I, personally, suggest this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&ab_channel=RickAstleyVEVO) as your exit theme.

That, or something else that is a complete non sequitor. Leave them guessing.

---

Seriously, get out.

This is an abusive relationship. It may not be a romantic relationship (at least, I hope not, given that the DM sounds like s/he'd be as bad a romantic partner as a DM), but it remains abusive.

You can apologize for the DM's behavior all you want. You can rationalize it to yourself. You can try to excuse it. It remains purely abusive.

There is a very thin line between frustration of the supporters and victim blaming, but seriously. At some point, you have to take some responsibility for not leaving.

---

Are you really in New Mexico? If so, what general area? I'm sure we can find you a better face to face game than this; we have a series of tubes the Internet.

[Talakeal]

Well, if you do end up trying to stick out the rest of the session, I hope you actually get to play, unlike last time...

Actually no, he spent the entire game session lecturing us about "the true history of the world", a ramshackle collection of urban legends and conspiracy theories that makes the history channel send like a beacon of rationale enlightenment.

At one point the rogue's player showed me his character sheet and I saw that THE DM HAD GIVEN HIM SKILL FOCUS: HEAL AS A FREE FEAT to help "round out his character".

I asked why he did it, and the DM's only response was to snap "Worry about your own characters. This is why I don't allow players to share character information. Give me your sheets now!"

I sat silently on my ipad the entire rest of the session and then walked out without saying goodbye. I really don't plan on going back.




Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

[Gabrosin]

So, the overwhelming advice is for you to leave, which I wholeheartedly support. But let's work from your stated premise that for some reason, you can't leave. Maybe the DM is your wife or your boss or there's this guy/girl in the group that you really have a crush on and you can't stand to pass up this opportunity to be with them. Whatever.

You enjoy the numbers side of the game, attempting to make strong, useful characters. The DM doesn't want strong, useful characters disrupting his story by being, you know, good at things. He's determined to squash, on the fly, any ability that proves to be too powerful. Hell, this is a man who banned bards, so the sky's the limit on his douchebaggery.

You could submit, play a boring character, and sleepwalk your way through the game that for whatever reason you feel compelled to remain in. So what if you can't do anything? At least when you die, you won't feel like you were invested... just roll up Blandy McBlanderson II and keep playing.

That's the lame option.

I will throw out one more possibility that has worked for me in non-D&D situations in the past: change your objective.

Clearly "being good" or "maximizing a certain number" aren't possible as options. What about minimizing a certain number? Do you think you could have fun playing a character with the lowest intelligence you can manage? The lowest wisdom? The lowest dexterity? Really play it up. Be worse than useless. Trip and fall into the king when you meet him. Fail important knowledge rolls so badly that you confuse the bartender for a sentient tree. Constantly suggest the most foolish course of action. Hey, you're not being intentionally disruptive, you're just playing to your character.

What if your character just has a particular fetish? Maybe your objective is to collect a severed ear from as many different species as possible, so that by the end of the campaign you can empty a haversack full of ears onto the BBEG as your opening move. Try to work the word "meow" into every conversation you have in character. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to play as a merchant? Make your only focus the accumulation of trade goods, not the defeat of your enemies. Keep extensive spreadsheets.

If your DM is as straitlaced and serious as you portray him, then all of these things will annoy the **** out of him. They will probably amuse your other party members; if all of them take this seriously too, then you're probably doing more harm than good here, but I consider that unlikely. And if you ever get accused of causing a problem, you can safely say that it's just acting in character. The important thing is to sell it. Don't ever let on that you're being intentionally annoying... act hurt if your DM accuses you of it. You may wind up on the receiving end of the DM's wrath, but hey, you can't leave the group, right? And he can't stop you from rolling up an even more ridiculous idea every time your old one eats a meteor.

[IZ42]

Actually no, he spent the entire game session lecturing us about "the true history of the world", a ramshackle collection of urban legends and conspiracy theories that makes the history channel send like a beacon of rationale enlightenment.

At one point the rogue's player showed me his character sheet and I saw that THE DM HAD GIVEN HIM SKILL FOCUS: HEAL AS A FREE FEAT to help "round out his character".

I asked why he did it, and the DM's only response was to snap "Worry about your own characters. This is why I don't allow players to share character information. Give me your sheets now!"

I sat silently on my ipad the entire rest of the session and then walked out without saying goodbye. I really don't plan on going back.




Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

Kick him out of your group then, he's a jackass that is BULLYING you and making your play experience miserable for you. Talk to the other players about it and if you really need to, just end your own session and tell them to figure it out amongst themselves.

[Talakeal]

Kick him out of your group then, he's a jackass that is BULLYING you and making your play experience miserable for you. Talk to the other players about it and if you really need to, just end your own session and tell them to figure it out amongst themselves.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was "my game" as in a game that I was running. We are both players in another DMs game at that DM's house. The problem is that I moved here fairly recently and have just joined both games, while he has known these people for years.

[enderlord99]

Ask him "are you that Jedipotter person?"

Slap him in the face before he can answer. Hard.

Leave, don't come back, move to another town and make sure this idiot doesn't get your contact info.

...

Only the last one's actually necessary.

[Hal0Badger]

We're getting back to the "DM is a jerk" factor. The DM is a liar and a cheater. He changes the rules mid-play and lies about character generation guidelines. He's not a good person irl -- screw the game. There is no game because there are no rules.


don't you assume too much for a person you don't know at all?

[Username.]

don't you assume too much for a person you don't know at all?

WTF? The OP described the DM as lying and cheating and sulking and being disruptive as a direct response to his own lying and cheating. What assumptions are you talking about?

[AvatarVecna]

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

Wow. Okay, so any of that stuff he tries in-character? Respond in kind. If the players get a summons to see the king, and he decides to steal the crown, or shank the king, or blast the king's head off, or woo the queen, or whatever, respond in kind: have him arrested by the guards, or maybe even executed on the spot of the offense is bad enough. Don't say "the king calls for your head; the guards move in; what do you do?" and always roll it out fairly, in front of everyone if you can. That way, when his character either puts a bounty on the party's head, or just his own, or gets killed, you can claim it was only reasonable IC reactions and dice rolls that killed him, not OoC disagreements. Either he'll put on his big boy pants for once and accept losing you as a thrall player gracefully and play your game gracefully from there on out, or he'll storm out in a huff. On the off-chance that he decides to play group politics to get you kicked out, I recommend not stooping to his level; if the group thinks he's totally B.S.ing them, or if they prefer the good group gaming to the longer association, you won't have a problem, and if they side with him despite knowing him, they're probably B.S. too.

Play-by-post, Roll20, Skype...there's a lot of ways to play games online, and that's on the off-chance that you get kicked out and there's no other gaming groups in your area. No gaming is better than bad gaming, and good gaming is better than both. We're not saying that gaming isn't fun; we're saying that there's more fun things you can do with your time than one good game and one ****ty game.

[AvatarVecna]

Ask him "are you that Jedipotter person?"

Slap him in the face before he can answer. Hard.

Leave, don't come back, move to another town and make sure this idiot doesn't get your contact info.

...

Only the last one's actually necessary.

And here was me, not reading your post as a multiple choice question (well, unless I was choosing D: all of the above).

[torrasque666]

Are you at least open to the idea of roll20.net?

Another group without him is helpful with supporting you to avoid pressure.

[Andezzar]

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.All I read points to the DM intentionally messing with you for whatever reason. Maybe talk to him outside of the game and find out why.

I wonder why he hasn't treated you in that way in the other group yet. So wait and see what happens in that other group after you left his game. If he starts being a jerk there too, maybe the DM of that game will sort it out himself, if not take it up with the group.

Not all people are oblivious to such things and seniority only counts for so much. At worst you will be rid of that unpleasant experience and will have time to find a new better group, since if the whole group condones such behavior they are not worth your time. Other results may be the DM starting to behave properly or him being banned. Either way you will have at leas one good game. If the DM is banned from the other game, you may want to approach the other players of the first game to make a new group - without the previous DM.

don't you assume too much for a person you don't know at all?Not much assumption there, unless the OP misrepresented him. The DM vetoed his Skill Focus (heal) and gave another character Skill Focus (heal) as a free feat.

[Dondasch]

Hell, this is a man who banned bards, so the sky's the limit on his douchebaggery.

No, when you ban bards you have transcended the concept of "limits" when it comes to the depths of your evil. Your very presence causes demons to run howling from you in the streets.


I will throw out one more possibility that has worked for me in non-D&D situations in the past: change your objective.

Clearly "being good" or "maximizing a certain number" aren't possible as options. What about minimizing a certain number? Do you think you could have fun playing a character with the lowest intelligence you can manage? The lowest wisdom? The lowest dexterity? Really play it up. Be worse than useless. Trip and fall into the king when you meet him. Fail important knowledge rolls so badly that you confuse the bartender for a sentient tree. Constantly suggest the most foolish course of action. Hey, you're not being intentionally disruptive, you're just playing to your character.

What if your character just has a particular fetish? Maybe your objective is to collect a severed ear from as many different species as possible, so that by the end of the campaign you can empty a haversack full of ears onto the BBEG as your opening move. Try to work the word "meow" into every conversation you have in character.

This is great. I might have to steal some of these if I'm ever in a more comedic campaign.
Another idea: minimize Diplomacy, and rush it on everyone you can for the extra -10, and making formerly friendly NPCs hate you.


Have you ever wondered what it would be like to play as a merchant? Make your only focus the accumulation of trade goods, not the defeat of your enemies. Keep extensive spreadsheets.

I played a merchant character once (minus the spreadsheets, shoulda done that). It was actually quite fun, although he had Artificer levels so that he could contribute in combat. Besides, he was out to eliminate the competition so he could have a monopoly on everything.
Also, I'd like to sig this last quote, if that's okay.

[Gabrosin]

Also, I'd like to sig this last quote, if that's okay.

By all means.

[Andezzar]

This is great. I might have to steal some of these if I'm ever in a more comedic campaign.
Another idea: minimize Diplomacy, and rush it on everyone you can for the extra -10, and making formerly friendly NPCs hate you.This is a pretty obvious attempt to make the game unfun for all players. That won't help anything.

[enderlord99]

And here was me, not reading your post as a multiple choice question (well, unless I was choosing D: all of the above).

That was a single set of instructions, listed in order.

[Hal0Badger]

Not much assumption there, unless the OP misrepresented him. The DM vetoed his Skill Focus (heal) and gave another character Skill Focus (heal) as a free feat.

Yeah I missed that point sorry.

For an advice: Don't play in his game. Play the other game as you wish, do not worry about it. If he makes passive-agressive jokes, simply and politely remind him that you don't like these kind of jokes, and your understanding of the game differs from his, then carry on with the game. If the other DM kicks you out just because of this guy, that game is not worth to play as well. Try options like roll20. I am using it near 2 years now, for my every RP experience.

[Lerondiel]

..... I really don't plan on going back.

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

Ah okay....you're putting up with this guy to protect your social footing in a good game...

The only problem is every week in his game degrades things between the two of you where it will eventually spill over to have him treating you on Saturdays the way you're worried about anyway.

Out of game solution:
If your Saturday crew are decent people you wont have to say much, they wont stand for someone being victimised. If they're not decent people, you're choosing to stay there and be treated badly.

In game solution:
We're all here and happy to help with builds and game ideas perfect for negating jackass moves :)

Good luck

[Username.]

The best way to ensure that a group stays together is to build a good scene. If you're afraid of losing players, you can step up your game as a DM or even encourage some of your players to DM in the same world and worldbuild together. Increase investment in your game and players will demand you continue it.

But there's no way you can play with a person who is dishonest and spiteful. You shouldn't even choose to work with such a person, even less play.

[ekarney]

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

How do the other members of that Saturday night group feel about the DM in question?
Because in my experience, being the player who's been there the longest doesn't grant them any additional pull.

But you want to leave without causing an issue right? In this case I'd just politely excuse myself from the group. Something simple like "I'm afraid I won't be able to continue gaming at this night any more." If you're pressed you can either make up a commitment or simply explain that the DM's style of dungeon mastering doesn't match up with your expectations as a player. If you go down that route explain to them that it's a coke/pepsi situation "I can see the merit in your style of DMing, however, it's just not my thing". Be polite and formal about it but don't go butt kissing.

If the DM brings this into your Saturday night game, you need to remind them that any issues from their game need to stay in that game.
I can deal with in game/one session vindictiveness but if it crosses over into other peoples games then you need to draw the line. If that happens though, this may be a problem that the two of you will have to settle by yourselves. If that happens I'd definitely make a new thread for it or update this one at the least.

[YossarianLives]

Does he always run the forgotten realms?

[ericgrau]

Well with 21 AC at level 4 foes are often going to be rolling a 18 to hit you while they only roll a 16 to hit the next highest AC guy. That's almost half as many hits. But let's see full plate + heavy shield + dex = 21 AC. Not even 1,000 gp on a +1 yet, nor any feats. Wow... that's not exactly optimization. So yes you are close to unhittable by mundane means even if you focused on offense from there. But no you aren't min-maxing. Even at level 4 some foes use other forms of attack, though not many. Another big factor is dealing enough damage to make a difference during your many rounds of survivability. Dealing decent damage one handed is do-able but you're probably not OP there. Finally there's your ability to block foes which depends on whether or not you're in a <=15' hallway. Or what their movement speed is out in the open. It costs an extra 20' of movement to go around you without provoking, plus whatever it normally took to get to your allies, so anything with less than 50' of speed or 40' + reach is going to be hampered there. So congrats you made a good level 4 SAB character without even trying, because there's nothing that needs to be done at level 4 because it's too mundane.

But yeah you didn't do anything wrong. Switch DMs or run a game.

As for skill focus and the healer ally, yes basically you should always look at what others are playing before making your character regardless of what the group says. But yes you should also play almost anything you want as long as it doesn't overlap excessively. There's little need to fill holes in D&D but a little variety is nice.

[Andezzar]

Does he always run the forgotten realms?What does the setting have to do with it?

[TheIronGolem]

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game.
This changes nothing, and I'll break down the reasons why.


If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him.
This would be a step up for you. Right now, he has the power in your relationship, because you give it to him. If he's whining and begging at you, it's because you've taken that power back. And make no mistake, with this sort of person it is all about power. He feels entitled to pull these kind of antics because he sees you as a subject in his tiny kingdom. Leave the kingdom, and his power vanishes.


More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun
This is also a step up. Know why? Because he's sabotaging your fun now, and as your DM he has free reign to do so as much as he wants, in any way that he wants. Yes, he can still cause problems for you in the other group, but since he's a player and not the DM, his means of doing so are limited and require buy-in from the DM. Which brings us to:


and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.
Another step up, regardless of how it turns out.

If he tries to get you thrown out and fails, he loses face in the group, and might even get forced out himself. You can increase the odds of this outcome by contacting the other group first and explaining your situation, giving them a heads-up will put them on alert if/when he tries something. If he treats other fellow gamers anything like how he treats you, they probably won't be surprised.

On the other hand, if he tries to get you thrown out and succeeds, you're still better off. If they take his side, they're as bad as he is. Good riddance to the lot of them, and now you're free to find a group on roll20 or PbP or whatever, one where you will actually be allowed to enjoy the game you play. Yes, they'll talk smack about you when you leave. So what?

Ferchrissake, stop putting your enjoyment in the hands of someone who actively wants to ruin it.

[AvatarVecna]

Ferchrissake, stop putting your enjoyment in the hands of someone who actively wants to ruin it.

Seconding this, and everything else they said as well. Hell, this line is almost sig-worthy.

[Sith_Happens]

Seriously, I need to figure out a way to leave this group without it biting me in the butt.

Please please please please please please please PLEASE let this not be the same abomination of a DM you've been complaining about once a week for over a y—


Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

—Aaaaaand it is.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b8f249c157fa22f9a06b85b09f338041/tumblr_nocuhzDA5k1u8zsalo1_500.gif
ALL RIGHT, no more Mr. Nice Poster, this has gone so far past the point that my considerable schadenfreude can handle.

**** your hang ups; **** your worrying; **** the Stockholm Syndrome that I seriously think you have; **** any and all social issues that are, aren't, might be, or you even think could possibly be or come into play. If you value the very IDEA of gaming you will tell this guy in no uncertain terms that you're so tired of his **** he's lucky to still have either of his kneecaps; that you would rather shoot yourself than ever again so much as be in the same building as any game he's DMing; that if he really wants you in his game that badly he should have thought about that before adamantly remaining a piece of scum despite your numerous protests; that if he has a problem with any of the prior things you've just said he can shove it up his ass; and, most importantly, that if he even THINKS of bringing any of this up in the Saturday game, or if he takes out his frustrations on you in or out of character, or if you even suspect that he's doing such, that you will NOT hesitate to read a prepared list of every last one of his countless crimes against RPGs out loud for that entire group to hear.
Was that all clear or do I need to paraphrase?

https://data.archive.moe/board/a/image/1336/95/1336959789061.gif

[OldTrees1]

Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

If he tries this should shut him up:
"I do not have time right now for multiple games. I prefer this Saturday game so I will use my limited time here."
Notice this is a non confrontational tone. This is a social cue to the other players/Saturday DM that you are having a problem. Any negative response from the **** player will be a confirmational social cue to the other players/Saturday DM

If that doesn't shut him up/disarm him/get others to shut him up, then you need to leave both games. I know you don't want to think of that possibility(and best case it doesn't happen) but you need to. This **** is tormenting you far beyond what is healthy to tolerate.

[Blackhawk748]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b8f249c157fa22f9a06b85b09f338041/tumblr_nocuhzDA5k1u8zsalo1_500.gif
ALL RIGHT, no more Mr. Nice Poster, this has gone so far past the point that my considerable schadenfreude can handle.

**** your hang ups; **** your worrying; **** the Stockholm Syndrome that I seriously think you have; **** any and all social issues that are, aren't, might be, or you even think could possibly be or come into play. If you value the very IDEA of gaming you will tell this guy in no uncertain terms that you're so tired of his **** he's lucky to still have either of his kneecaps; that you would rather shoot yourself than ever again so much as be in the same building as any game he's DMing; that if he really wants you in his game that badly he should have thought about that before adamantly remaining a piece of scum despite your numerous protests; that if he has a problem with any of the prior things you've just said he can shove it up his ass; and, most importantly, that if he even THINKS of bringing any of this up in the Saturday game, or if he takes out his frustrations on you in or out of character, or if you even suspect that he's doing such, that you will NOT hesitate to read a prepared list of every last one of his countless crimes against RPGs out loud for that entire group to hear.
Was that all clear or do I need to paraphrase?

https://data.archive.moe/board/a/image/1336/95/1336959789061.gif

Well then... Bravo good sir.

[Masakan]

Leave that game, kick him out of your group, and punch him clean in his face before you leave. Problem solved.

[Reprimand]

I dealt with this kind of DM before they have no idea what is and is not op so they see something they don't like and latch on to it like and drowning man at sea. And it will never be someone else because to him your the power-gamer/munchkin. Leave while you have the chance and go find another group.

Don't use violence though that always comes back on you.

[Segev]

Alright, your fear is that he'll maneuver you to be the "bad guy" in your other game.

I suggest you politely but firmly state that your play-style and his DMing style are incompatible, and that you don't like making a good friend like him angry with your character builds. In the name of preserving your friendship, you're dropping out of his game, with your apologies. You're not having fun, and it's clear you're diminishing his fun.

Find reason to casually mention to the other players and the DM of your good game that you've dropped out of his simply because you weren't having fun. His game isn't your kind of game.

Then, if you see hints of him trying to take it out on you through social backdoor maneuvers or passive aggression at the good game's table, call him out on it. Politely but firmly. If he hints that he'd like you back, tell him you're sorry, but that you just don't have fun.

If needs be, explain why. Do it calmly, and try to minimize recrimination. You don't think Skill Focus is overpowered, you don't like being yelled at for being a power gamer, and point out that you seem to both get along much better in this game. If he bullies you in the Saturday game, TALK TO THAT DM about it. Privately, preferably. Explain why you left his game, that you only stayed in it so long because you feared that he'd try to ruin this DM's game for you, and ask that DM for help.

Chances are, if this guy is a problem, his long-time acquaintances know it. Don't play more politics than you have to, but do treat these other people in this better game as friends worthy of trust: let them know you don't want to drive wedges, but that you do value their friendship and don't want them to think you're a bad person even though you just can't get along with bad!DM in bad!DM's game.

[Reprimand]

Alright, your fear is that he'll maneuver you to be the "bad guy" in your other game.

I suggest you politely but firmly state that your play-style and his DMing style are incompatible, and that you don't like making a good friend like him angry with your character builds. In the name of preserving your friendship, you're dropping out of his game, with your apologies. You're not having fun, and it's clear you're diminishing his fun.

Find reason to casually mention to the other players and the DM of your good game that you've dropped out of his simply because you weren't having fun. His game isn't your kind of game.

Then, if you see hints of him trying to take it out on you through social backdoor maneuvers or passive aggression at the good game's table, call him out on it. Politely but firmly. If he hints that he'd like you back, tell him you're sorry, but that you just don't have fun.

If needs be, explain why. Do it calmly, and try to minimize recrimination. You don't think Skill Focus is overpowered, you don't like being yelled at for being a power gamer, and point out that you seem to both get along much better in this game. If he bullies you in the Saturday game, TALK TO THAT DM about it. Privately, preferably. Explain why you left his game, that you only stayed in it so long because you feared that he'd try to ruin this DM's game for you, and ask that DM for help.

Chances are, if this guy is a problem, his long-time acquaintances know it. Don't play more politics than you have to, but do treat these other people in this better game as friends worthy of trust: let them know you don't want to drive wedges, but that you do value their friendship and don't want them to think you're a bad person even though you just can't get along with bad!DM in bad!DM's game.

^ this 100%. Pretty much sums up the most civil way to handle things.

[Larkas]

Oookay, now that we have a fuller picture, I can better weigh in. Here's a plan:

1) Make an uninteresting and purposefully unoptimized character he will certainly accept. Here's an idea: Elf Ranger 4, take archery, get Toughness and Acrobatics.

2) Play one session.

3) Next week, call him saying that you regret to say you'll need that time to study for -some long term goal-.

4) Profit.

You can't leave much more gracefully than that AND it probably guarantees he won't be passive-aggressive in the Saturday game.

[Keltest]

Heres my two cents: Just leave. Don't worry about how he may or may not react in the other game. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you are no longer interested in playing with him as the DM. Either he will accept it gracefully, in which case there is no problem, or he will not. If he tries to start something in the other group, they will either treat him as the problem player that he decided to become and force him to stop/leave, or they will not, in which case you probably don't want to stay in a group that wont treat you fairly anyway. Meanwhile, explore other gaming groups in your area or online. Don't approach them unless it looks like your fun group is going to go critical on you (or if you want to play in them simultaneously, I guess), but make yourself aware of your options.

[Red Fel]

*wisdom*

*sagacity*

These.

Look, chief. At the end of the day, you are willfully enduring present torment in order to avoid the possibility of future discomfort. That, quite simply, is daft. You're choosing to suffer because there's a chance - a chance, mind you - that, if you decide to stop suffering, someone else might make you suffer.

The solution to which would be to walk away from that, too.

As others have said, you need to leave, this guy's table is toxic. If he bullies you at the other table, he's in the wrong. If they take his side, they're in the wrong, but in all likelihood, they won't, because they're aware of his crap.

If they give you guff, leave there. If they don't, you're in a good place.

Social uncertainty and anxiety is a thing. I get that. But the thing about many anxieties is that they are not necessarily rational. Once you recognize this, you can try to overcome it. What you're feeling right now is that anxiety - "What if other people dislike me for this?" You need to recognize that this feeling is apropos of nothing. So you're the new guy. So what? Why should your decision to leave another table matter to these folks at all? Once you get that, you can feel comfortable about your decision.

And if they do give you crap, well...

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9u8g5mQbJ1qe3ljuo2_400.gif

See? Ferris still thinks you should leave. And now he's a lion.

[Sliver]

It's the same guy, isn't it? The one that always has to one-up everybody and is always correct, even if he isn't, or has no idea what really happened? The one that might have some... Problems? The one that you are pressured into playing with by your family or someone?

You know, I would have said that you should fake an injury, but that wouldn't allow you to play in the other game without the problem of him whining that you can totally come to his too...

How about you develop a thicker skin and simply ignore him? Don't come to his game, and don't react to his whining in the other, actually fun, game?

[Enran]

Oookay, now that we have a fuller picture, I can better weigh in. Here's a plan:

1) Make an uninteresting and purposefully unoptimized character he will certainly accept. Here's an idea: Elf Ranger 4, take archery, get Toughness and Acrobatics.

2) Play one session.

3) Next week, call him saying that you regret to say you'll need that time to study for -some long term goal-.

4) Profit.

You can't leave much more gracefully than that AND it probably guarantees he won't be passive-aggressive in the Saturday game.

Acrobatics!? +2 on two different skill checks!? That's even more broken than Skill Focus! Banned!

[Bronk]

Actually no, he spent the entire game session lecturing us about "the true history of the world", a ramshackle collection of urban legends and conspiracy theories that makes the history channel send like a beacon of rationale enlightenment.

At one point the rogue's player showed me his character sheet and I saw that THE DM HAD GIVEN HIM SKILL FOCUS: HEAL AS A FREE FEAT to help "round out his character".

I asked why he did it, and the DM's only response was to snap "Worry about your own characters. This is why I don't allow players to share character information. Give me your sheets now!"

I sat silently on my ipad the entire rest of the session and then walked out without saying goodbye. I really don't plan on going back.




Again, my problem is that the DM is a player in my infinitely superior Saturday night game. If I leave his game he is, best case scenario, going to be whining and begging for me to come back every time I see him. More likely he will passive aggressively make jokes at my expense and pull jackass moves in character to sabatoge my fun, and he might even try and play politics to get me thrown out of the group as he has been a member of the group far longer than I have.

Yikes. My best advice, if you're worried about the other player making trouble for you in the other game, is to fill the other DM in on what's been going on, so he or she isn't blindsided by this other guy's actions in the game you want to keep. Who knows, maybe you'll both end up bonding of that guy's craziness or something.

[The Glyphstone]

As usual, this isn't gaming, this is Stockholm Syndrome with dice.

[Svata]

This is my vote^^^.

Make it a project. A Martial Rouge/Cleric would look innocent enough. Or Bard.

Madness. This DM would certainly think rouge is overpowdered.

Also, would your DM happen to be a certain force-using wizard? This whole nerfing spells on the fly and not writing down houserules seems... familiar.

[Andezzar]

Madness. This DM would certainly think rouge is overpowdered.Of course coloring your character's cheeks to appear more attractive to male NPCs is overpowered. Who knows, that might even work on PCs since there is no PC exclusion on Rouge as on diplomacy.

[Feddlefew]

WHAT

You're STILL PLAYING with that guy? Undead carp, when we were predicting you'd be the next Sue Files saga we really hoped we wouldn't be right.

[mostholycerebus]

Roll20.net says hi.

Stories like the OPs seem, if anything, MORE common on Roll20. People like the OPs GM gravitate there once they have driven off every RPG'er in their geographical area.

[torrasque666]

Stories like the OPs seem, if anything, MORE common on Roll20. People like the OPs GM gravitate there once they have driven off every RPG'er in their geographical area.
Aye, but there's considerably less to be lost by just never showing up again.

[Threadnaught]

Also, would your DM happen to be a certain force-using wizard? This whole nerfing spells on the fly and not writing down houserules seems... familiar.

Remember, the Great Cheater would never trust a mere mortal as DM as only the Great Cheater had the divine right to DM as only the Great Cheater was worthy in the eyes of the lord master of the universe, the Great Cheater.

Since this DM is happy to be a Player in another Campaign, I do not believe this to be the Great Cheater.
Any Rudisplorkers here want to help me out a little? I'm going to be writing up an Affiliation for the Guild and want to know what kind of benefits people would like from membership, as well as exactly how Rudisplorked a Rudisplorker needs to be to count as Rudisplorking. I can handle the History just fine, we'll be dining on the finest cuisine in the (Dining) Hall of Heroes cooked to perfection by Emperor Win (who has nothing better to do since his infinite army of Ice Assassins is already doing it), while toasting the achievements recorded within Keledrath's Infinite Library.


Talakeal, you are going to leave both of these games and reflect on how stressful your life is with this DM in it. If you do not feel much better after having taken a break, then by all means, go back to the good game, make up some bs about being unable to make the bad game because commitments/stormwind fallacy and avoid it like the plague.
If you do feel better without the DM in your life, significantly so, that it overrides any enjoyment you feel you get from the good game, that the DM would ruin that game for you as well as the bad one if they don't get their way and to constantly bully you... *breathes* Leave forever and never go back, just find somewhere online through those of us here and in other safe spaces (mostly) free of ignorant and controlling DMs, willing to offer you somewhere you can spread your wings and play the game you set out to play. You could even try finding somewhere with new players entirely and have them join you, it'll suck at first, but nothing drags down a games fun factor like a Player who isn't enjoying themselves, especially if you're that player. Get out, find someone who'll allow you to enjoy yourself and do just that.
Preach it Kelb.

[bean illus]

The DM vetoed his Skill Focus (heal) and gave another character Skill Focus (heal) as a free feat.

That does seem a little like 'bully syndrome'.


Of course coloring your character's cheeks to appear more attractive to male NPCs is overpowered. Who knows, that might even work on PCs since there is no PC exclusion on Rouge as on diplomacy.

That is just funny as *%*%*. I have certainly misspelled and/or made typo before, so i'm not laughing about that, Just the humor.
***************

As for the problem, I would do as suggested, and claim that my time was temporarily thin, and that i could only make the Saturday game.

[137beth]

Honestly? The funniest thing would be to go through the feats section of the PHB, one at a time, and build something with each feat until every feat is banned. Or, at least, until every feat that doesn't have lots of prerequisites is banned (which effectively bans the later feats too).
Then ask the DM what you should build under the constraints given.

But for real, I'd just leave. No game is better than a bad game.

[lunasmeow]

Rant incoming:
...Seriously, I need to figure out a way to leave this group without it biting me in the butt.

What is this guy, your boss at work or something? Worried he'll take offense at you leaving and find a way to fire you?

[Talakeal]

I actually tried playing a game on roll20. It was a complete disaster on so many levels. The software was just horrible, and without being able to look the players in the eye or read body oanguage it just devolved into long periods of silence waiting for everyone else to say something.


Honestly? The funniest thing would be to go through the feats section of the PHB, one at a time, and build something with each feat until every feat is banned. Or, at least, until every feat that doesn't have lots of prerequisites is banned (which effectively bans the later feats too).
Then ask the DM what you should build under the constraints given.

But for real, I'd just leave. No game is better than a bad game.

That would only work if his ban list was consistent from session to session. It most assuradly is not.


Remember, the Great Cheater would never trust a mere mortal as DM as only the Great Cheater had the divine right to DM as only the Great Cheater was worthy in the eyes of the lord master of the universe, the Great Cheater.

Since this DM is happy to be a Player in another Campaign, I do not believe this to be the Great Cheater.

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

[Troacctid]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

Okay? Sucks for him, then? He doesn't have to play if he doesn't want to.

[lunasmeow]

Actually no, he spent the entire game session lecturing us about "the true history of the world", a ramshackle collection of urban legends and conspiracy theories that makes the history channel send like a beacon of rationale enlightenment.

At one point the rogue's player showed me his character sheet and I saw that THE DM HAD GIVEN HIM SKILL FOCUS: HEAL AS A FREE FEAT to help "round out his character".

I asked why he did it, and the DM's only response was to snap "Worry about your own characters. This is why I don't allow players to share character information. Give me your sheets now!"

If he's such a serious player, then he's a ****ing idiot. If you are adventuring together and trust each other (so... not an evil party) then you are going to know each other's capabilities (unless someone has a secret past or something). Seeing each other's sheets is just that. Sharing your abilities so that the group can work together as a whole. And seeing as he gave skill focus, he's just being a ****.

[frogglesmash]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

Kind of ironic considering how much he seems to like depriving his PCs of control.

[Sith_Happens]

Honestly? The funniest thing would be to go through the feats section of the PHB, one at a time, and build something with each feat until every feat is banned. Or, at least, until every feat that doesn't have lots of prerequisites is banned (which effectively bans the later feats too).
Then ask the DM what you should build under the constraints given.

Nice try, but this guy is such a black hole of aggressive idiocy that his answer will in fact be, exact words, "It's not my problem if you don't know how to build a balanced character. Figure it out."

[lunasmeow]

Stories like the OPs seem, if anything, MORE common on Roll20. People like the OPs GM gravitate there once they have driven off every RPG'er in their geographical area.

This is true... I played in a game where I presented my character for the DM, he accepted it, then because he didn't do his homework because he was too busy drinking, decided I was too powerful after the first session. Then he tried to tell me that I couldn't be a half-demon elf, not because it was too powerful, but because there were none, and no fey'ri either. There were only human tieflings, and no half demons. When I tried to explain that tieflings come from the children of half demons he let me know that I was presupposing things and kicked me from the game, even though I'd immediately sent him a message saying that it would indeed be an interesting story idea if tieflings were just "popping up" for some reason without actual demon ancestry, and was willing to work with it and make something else.

[Yogibear41]

Your DM's a moron.

2nd to last character I played was level 3 human cleric, with no LA/Templates, had a 25 AC and a DR of 5 unbuffed with no magic items. AC of 21 at level 4 OP? What a joke.

I knew a guy once who was ridiculously good at making ridiculously bad characters(he wasn't trying to make them bad), had a level 9 character with 16 hit points once(wasn't even a wizard) and no defensive buffs to keep him alive.

Wonder if I could find him to get him to make you a new character. :smallsmile:

[Yael]

At that point I said "Well, back to the drawing board then." Ripped up my character sheet and threw it in the garbage and pulled out a fresh sheet. The DM then pouted for the entire rest of the evening and took his frustrations out on the rest of the party who continued playing while I made a new character sheet.

I generally would say that this is never a good sign. As I've been told several times in these forums: Don't be on a game where you aren't having fun. Or something like that, I don't just read it everytime... :smalltongue:


Elven worse advice; play planar shepherd of the far realms.

Min-max advice: follow noob's advice.


A bit of unsolicited advice to your random rant:

Walk away.

Seconding this, just do as Elsa.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d5da0e81ae4716b9013a1606bfdd3355/tumblr_mxh4i2zyUn1qdsm1jo1_500.gif


But pants are overpowered, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. This is why they're banned at my table.

So at mine.


Your DM's a moron.

Also this, follow Yogibear41's words of wisdom.

[Threadnaught]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

Would you like us to mobilize the Guild against him?

Available tactics for use against this fiend are, asking him to be more lenient with puppy dog eyes, telling him we dislike how he runs the game and should feel bad, or arguing with him until someone begins crying and then mocking whoever starts crying regardless of their affiliation.
Okay, I didn't say they were effective tactics.

Try mentioning "Rudisplorking" to the DM and see what kind of reaction you get. Ask him about the Rudisplorkers' Guild, if they recognize it and refer to it as a bunch of fools who worship the DM, then you must slay this vile beast using Two Weapon Fighting. You wield the great weapons of Rudisplorking, Left Leg and Right Leg, attack the ground with Left Leg and Right Leg until he is no longer within your vision.



What I personally dislike about roll20, is how all the cool stuff is behind a paywall. Anything that'd make running a Campaign somewhat interesting is unavailable unless you're willing to pay a subscription. Granted, I am a cheapskate, so take it with a dose of 5gp.

[DrMartin]

this DM of yours sounds like the protagonist from the movie zero charisma (imdb link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294965/)), from the variable set of house rules to the abusing control of his game group.

Anyhow I think that your fear of repercussions on your other, enjoyable gaming group is not really an argument: if this guy actually had this kind of power on the other players in your group, it would sooner or later for some reason go into [expletive]-mode and make your life harder there anyway, just because he can (or, probably, in his mind, to make the game better). If he "plays nice" in the other game is probably because he knows the other players would not play along with his bovine excrement.

[Roncorps]

You should go first and tell your saturday DM that you didn't like his game, not him, and you stopped playing it and that if he, the idiot DM (don't say that, but think it hard), say something bad about you or try something shaddy/etc., in this game, you will stop playing. You can't go second with this kind of guy, but at the same time, not too much aggresive.

You need to be honest with people and make it clear. It's something I've learn the hard way with too many anxiety attack. Now, I'm honest (politicality honest, but canadian way, not american. I'm not even sure american politic can be honest !) and priorize my fun, my joy and first, my damn important time !

[Username.]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

If you did have him as a player, you'd be acting like a jerk to the other players. They shouldn't have to put up with his antics. If you continue to associate with a jerk, you'll have to take responsibility for encouraging the jerk to mistreat others. So either put that on your conscience or bail now.

[martixy]

I actually tried playing a game on roll20. It was a complete disaster on so many levels. The software was just horrible, and without being able to look the players in the eye or read body oanguage it just devolved into long periods of silence waiting for everyone else to say something.

I've come to realize that recently.
Roll20 dm's suck.
(I don't think they visit here but, on the off-chance they do - yes, you suck, not necessarily as humans, and not on all counts as a conductor of the game, but definately on some. Now I know I have my own biases, but there's little I can do about those.)

That would only work if his ban list was consistent from session to session. It most assuradly is not.
How old is he anyway?


Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.
Sadly I don't think you'll be able to convince him that it isn't his game to control. No matter how hard he tries.

Which coincidentally is just another reason to seek other avenues of expression.

The point is... again... for the 100th time... said in yet another slightly different flavor:
What you are playing right now in his social gathering is so far from what D&D represents, it's not even funny anymore.

If you are being held hostage socially, you need to approach the situation as if you are being held hostage.
Call in a negotiator if possible. Say, the Jumplomancer.

[mostholycerebus]

I actually tried playing a game on roll20. It was a complete disaster on so many levels. The software was just horrible, and without being able to look the players in the eye or read body oanguage it just devolved into long periods of silence waiting for everyone else to say something.

The software works if the GM is experienced in using it. Works well actually. There IS a learning curve though.

Most games ive seen use Skype or something for vid chat, helps alot.

[Arbane]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

Wait, you invited him? WHY? Is he less obnoxious as a player than a GM?


If he tries this should shut him up:
"I do not have time right now for multiple games. I prefer this Saturday game so I will use my limited time here."
Notice this is a non confrontational tone. This is a social cue to the other players/Saturday DM that you are having a problem. Any negative response from the **** player will be a confirmational social cue to the other players/Saturday DM

If that doesn't shut him up/disarm him/get others to shut him up, then you need to leave both games. I know you don't want to think of that possibility(and best case it doesn't happen) but you need to. This **** is tormenting you far beyond what is healthy to tolerate.

This is probably the best advice.

[Psyren]

I really want to sig this.

Also get out of that game.
I have been to "random ban and nerf" town myself, no game is worth going there.
"Can't or won't give you a house rules document" village is also somewhere you don't want to be.


Go ahead if you so desire. I'm glad to be of some amusement.

For added humor you should sig it without the blue text.

I won't bother opining on the OP's situation yet again.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm going to weigh in here. I won't rehash what others have said (besides really dude? Really? This guy is whack). What I suggest is go to the DM of the other DM, the one who runs the amazing Saturday night game. Talk to him about this problesome DM. Do your best to try and get Saturday DM on your side or at the very least convince him to not let Bad DM ruin his (Saturday DM)'s game because you left Bad DM's game. If this game is as good as it is, the DM is probably stellar in many regards and likely be able to handle this OOC drama better, since he's in the position of power there. And Bad DM would be at his mercy if he stirs unwanted trouble.

[Talakeal]

Wait, you invited him? WHY? Is he less obnoxious as a player than a GM?



This is probably the best advice.

I didnt invite him specifically, I just volunteered to take over Dming for the entire group, which currently plays at his house.

[Sith_Happens]

How old is he anyway?

My guess is at least 35. Almost all of the absolute worst GMs seem to be.

[martixy]

My guess is at least 35. Almost all of the absolute worst GMs seem to be.

I dub this the "stupidity tunneling effect".

You come in riding on a low energy wave, till you hit your 20s. At that point you just don't know any better. Then the life kicks you up and straightens you out. But sometimes, the level of stupidity is so high, or there's that one in a million chance, that the stupidity tunnels straight through to 35.

[Jermz]

I don't have anything to add, as everything has been said and analyzed far better than I'd be able to, so I'm going to ask some questions - mainly for my own pleasure, as this thread is morbidly compelling, though they might be able to shed some light on the situation for the more psychoanalytic posters.

1) How do the other people in the group feel about this DM? Is he singling you out specifically?
2) Are there any other people who are playing in both groups?
3) How is this DM as a player in the superior group? Does he pull OP crap? Does he sit meekly in the corner? Argumentative? How do the players and DM there treat him or perceive him?

[Psyren]

I've had good older DMs. To tie this to years seems like nothing but baseless ageism to me.

[AvatarVecna]

I've had good older DMs. To tie this to years seems like nothing but baseless ageism to me.

Seconded. Stupidity and arrogance are hardly solely the domain of a single generation. Everybody sucks in their own special way.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Six months from now, you are going to look back six months at this conversation and ask yourself one of two questions:

1) Why the hell did I keep playing with that guy for so long?

2) Why the hell am I still playing with this guy?

You've already looked back a few months and asked yourself the second question at least once–and received an unsatisfactory answer. For the fickle love of Olidammara, man, next time let it be the first one.

Seriously, everything that everybody else has said so far: leave. Talk to your other table's GM and let them know the score, and if they and the table don't support you against this jerk (and just to be clear, they probably will), leave them too.

As for the Roll20 no-eye-contact thing: I use Google Hangouts and the integrated Roll20 app. You can see and talk to each other because webcams; we only use Roll20 for the dice-rolling and the map-making.

[Actually because the app is so laggy (the map preserves each instance of the drawing tool as a separate object instead of giving you the option to merge things into a single layer :smallsigh:) these days we usually use Dicestream and one of the whiteboard apps that Hangouts has, but whatever. You get the idea.]

And there are any number of Google+ groups where you can find people to play with. There's the Roll20 group, the Google+ Hangout RPG group, any number of Tabletop Roleplaying groups that have sections devoted to Hangout gaming, any number of groups dedicated to a specific system that have a section for that. Seriously. My RL group has fallen apart over the course of the last year, so Hangouts is my go-to for realtime gaming; you might have a couple of stumbles finding a group to play regularly with, but I can directly speak to the fact that it works well.

[AnonymousPepper]

Is somebody else running a roll20 game on here, or maybe has an IRL game near him they can invite him to?

Seriously, OP, if I didn't currently have six players in the game I'm GMing, I'd gladly bring you into my group, because you deserve a better gaming experience than you're getting.

[torrasque666]

I got a roll20 game. Wednesday nights, approximately 6:30 CST. We just hit epic levels though, so I dunno how much that appeals to him. I'm actually the guy who handles applications for the group, since I have a better handle on rules and system mastery than the DM.

[Hazrond]

I am actually just about to start a Skull and Shackles game with a solid group of people i know (except one newcomer, but i know him so i doubt he will be trouble) if Tala is interested, we would be playing monday nights at 6 PM Central if you are open :smallsmile:

[Sith_Happens]

1) How do the other people in the group feel about this DM? Is he singling you out specifically?

About the same as us and are actually sane enough to act on those feelings; IIRC from the many of these threads this group has incredibly high turnover, with Talakeal being the only player to stick it out for more than a month or two. Which definitely says a lot of things, but I'm pretty sure I'd have to be Nyarlathotep to figure out what any of them are.


I've had good older DMs. To tie this to years seems like nothing but baseless ageism to me.

Uh, I specifically jumped in with "My guess is at least 35..." because literally every time I've ever seen the question "How old is this [horrible DM]" asked on this forum,
it's been asked with the implication of "I bet they're a teenager."
the answer has been some variant of either "They were a teenager when 2e was the most recent edition" or "They claim to have been playing for twenty years now."

[Psyren]

Uh, I specifically jumped in with "My guess is at least 35..." because literally every time I've ever seen the question "How old is this [horrible DM]" asked on this forum,
it's been asked with the implication of "I bet they're a teenager."
the answer has been some variant of either "They were a teenager when 2e was the most recent edition" or "They claim to have been playing for twenty years now."

The point though is that horrible DMs exist at all ages. It's just as wrong to assume they're bad because they're a teenager as it is to assume they're bad because they're a grognard. They're bad because they're bad, age has no correlation to badness.

[AnonymousPepper]

Alright, we've established that jumping in on the guy's perceived grognardism was stupid, can we collectively move past it now? :sigh:

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, we've established that jumping in on the guy's perceived grognardism was stupid, can we collectively move past it now? :sigh:

Sorry, but no: the unwritten rules of the playground explicitly state that no minor thread derailments can be allowed to remain minor, especially if they were pointing out a perceived mistake made by another poster. You can tell because of how zealously that unwritten rule is obeyed; even people brand new to the site know this rule.

Back on topic...actually, I don't really know what to say that's on-topic. There's only so many ways to say "Dude, run" before it gets stale and tired. Maybe we don't understand some of the complexities of the situation that make this advice hard to employ, but regardless of what method is used, the final result should not be staying in an abusive relationship at the benefit of the abuser. Whatever it takes to get the abuse to stop, whether it's leaving the game, convincing the bad DM that he's bad and needs to change, taking the bad DM out of the picture Edgar Allen Poe style, or what have you.

[ekarney]

Is somebody else running a roll20 game on here, or maybe has an IRL game near him they can invite him to?

Seriously, OP, if I didn't currently have six players in the game I'm GMing, I'd gladly bring you into my group, because you deserve a better gaming experience than you're getting.

I'm currently working on a total 3.5 conversion into a cyberpunk style game, if OP's interested.
Won't be ready for a while but I will need players of all stripes.

[Threadnaught]

I'm currently working on a total 3.5 conversion into a cyberpunk style game, if OP's interesting.
Won't be ready for a while but I will need players of all stripes.

This guy (despite him barely showing up) and Circa are in Australia, while myself and that ******* Druid are in England. Which is the whole reason I didn't extend an invitation. It's somewhat more difficult to organize a session for someone who is running on +8 or -16 hours, than someone running on -8.
I'd like to have you Talakeal, we're running ECL+4 Gestalts (single optional template) through Emperor Win's Terrifically Terrible Trial, then we're doing an entire Campaign dedicated to PvP, which based on the ideas my players are having, should be a lot of fun, and I'm looking into doing something set entirely in Sharn.
The current game, with the Gestalts, is basically Players vs DM, those awful Players keep winning, but I've had a few minor victories.
Like that time Circa almost derailed the plot, or that time Circa destroyed the Lightning Rail, or that time Circa tried to start a war... I hate that guys character. :smallfrown:


MetaMyconid has some really awesome ideas and the game he ran that I played in was really fun. Ignoring the fact that he allowed a fully functional Artificer in a Low Magic Setting, which I took immediate advantage of. :smallamused:

Circa too, though the one he ran was derailed because of my character, a Human Ozodrin called Terrence "Rapey Terry" Akbalahu Boomero, who had the Lust Sin. All Characters had to have a sin, Lust on someone who enjoys physical contact with anything and everything seemed to be the most disturbing possible character choice.
Mirror match against a twisted nightmare version of our characters, had Terry fighting a perfect clone without the personality. For some reason, the twisted clone was less disturbing.
I have a bad habit of giving my group nightmares. :smallbiggrin:


Point is, these two do great stuff and I enjoy playing with them (when they're actually awake), I think you should try joining them sometime, it's hard to forget their wacky hijinks.

[ekarney]

This guy (despite him barely showing up) and Circa are in Australia, while myself and that ******* Druid are in England. Which is the whole reason I didn't extend an invitation. It's somewhat more difficult to organize a session for someone who is running on +8 or -16 hours, than someone running on -8.
I'd like to have you Talakeal, we're running ECL+4 Gestalts (single optional template) through Emperor Win's Terrifically Terrible Trial, then we're doing an entire Campaign dedicated to PvP, which based on the ideas my players are having, should be a lot of fun, and I'm looking into doing something set entirely in Sharn.
The current game, with the Gestalts, is basically Players vs DM, those awful Players keep winning, but I've had a few minor victories.
Like that time Circa almost derailed the plot, or that time Circa destroyed the Lightning Rail, or that time Circa tried to start a war... I hate that guys character. :smallfrown:


MetaMyconid has some really awesome ideas and the game he ran that I played in was really fun. Ignoring the fact that he allowed a fully functional Artificer in a Low Magic Setting, which I took immediate advantage of. :smallamused:


What I'm currently working on is part of the reason I haven't shown recently as I've been pushing myself till about 3am then crashing out. Hell, if OP wants to assist me with that even, so they can at least do some D&Ding while inbetween groups that's fine by me.

That being said, once I've completed Mechaspirit: 2041 to a playable level I'll rejoin. I might even remake Crossroads in Mechaspirit. Maybe. Not likely. But maybe.

Adding to the thread: Threadnaught's a very solid DM, despite his style being almost a polar opposite to my haphazard handwaving and "Yeah sure"ing I do really enjoy his games when I can make them. Plus you won't have to be worried out Skill Focus being labelled overpowered and banned.

There are some very good online campaigns out there, a friend of mine is starting up one quite soon actually with a d6 system.

[Telonius]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was "my game" as in a game that I was running. We are both players in another DMs game at that DM's house. The problem is that I moved here fairly recently and have just joined both games, while he has known these people for years.

My advice: direct the second DM to this thread. Explain the situation. If he's known them for that long, either A) they know how much of an idiot he is and will commiserate/make sure he keeps his baggage away during the game, or B) they'll support him in it, which will tell you all you need to know about them as human beings.

[EldritchWeaver]

Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.


I didnt invite him specifically, I just volunteered to take over Dming for the entire group, which currently plays at his house.

Assuming you can get a place to run a game, you could get the other players into your game. You did already invite him once, he declined for all games ever, so he can't get mad at you (or in the case, he does, point out his stance). Then decline coming to his game, because running that game is too time consuming for you to have two others games ongoing at the same time.

[Segev]

I presume that the reason he invited this DM is because he made the offer to the whole table during one of that DM's sessions.

I would make the offer again, and politely tell the DM, if he says some variant on, "I told you I'm never joining another game where I'm not DM!" that that's fine; you're still offering to run, and the DM doesn't have to join. The other players are welcome.

Also, again: leave his game. Next time he berates you, calls you a powergamer, or otherwise makes you feel unwelcome, politely acknowledge that your playstyle just doesn't mesh with his. In the interests of ceasing to bog down his games with your clashes of game style, you are withdrawing. Thank him for trying to make it work, but you're not having fun and you think you're probably diminishing the DM's and the other players' fun, so you're going to stop.

If any trouble is stirred by this DM in your "good game," call him out firmly: "Look, I already left your game because my gaming style was incompatible with your DMing style so that I wouldn't cause trouble there. I've been getting along fine in this game; please stop trying to drive me out of it. It's rude and childish."

Do this as politely, calmly, and firmly as you can in front of the others when he does anything to intimate you're a bad gamer, person, or whatever, so they know the source of it. Chances are, they ARE all aware of his proclivities and problematic behaviors. If they're of the geek social fallacy class which believes excluding people is abominable, they'll see him suddenly as the excluder. If they're not, then hopefully they are not falling for any of said social fallacies which might apply here, and will behave like adults.

[Threadnaught]

Threadnaught's a very solid DM, despite his style being almost a polar opposite to my haphazard handwaving and "Yeah sure"ing I do really enjoy his games when I can make them.

I don't know whose games you've been playing, but in mine, little planning actually goes into each session. I just allocate a few NPCs and give them as few resources as I think they need to prevent you from roflstomping them and play them as ruthlessly as possible while trying not to metagame. Also, every action has a consequence, no matter how minor or beneficial, it's something you learned to fear quickly enough.


Plus you won't have to be worried out Skill Focus being labelled overpowered and banned.

There are some very good online campaigns out there, a friend of mine is starting up one quite soon actually with a d6 system.

I did consider a ban, as well as banning Toughness and other less optimal choices, in order to encourage all players, not just the two with an account here, to streamline their characters to maximum effectiveness.
That ******* Druid makes it almost impossible to kill him once he gets rolling anyway, him picking suboptimal choices just gives me a punching bag for when Circa uses that GAF! :smallfurious: Goddamn Annoying Fairy
Which is nice... I hate that character.


There are some very good online campaigns out there, a friend of mine is starting up one quite soon actually with a d6 system.

That wouldn't be Circa's game that I'll be trying to help playtest, would it? I think I'll make some Constructs with Fau'Xamnims extra XP.

[Sayt]

I agree with everyone telling you to leg it.

But, do it in a way that seems as reasonable as humanly possible to the rest of your group. Do it around them, avoid cussing (though personally I think you'd be entitled to it), make it about incompatible styles of playing DND rather than him being a window-licking oxygen thief. Tell him you're just not enjoying this game and would like to bow out graciously. If you loses it at you, you have ammo to get him kicked out of the Saturday game.

[Socratov]

If I might drop a couple of cp in, I agree with everyone telling you to leg it and to keep it straight. Tell him you aren't enjoyig yourself as much as you would like for purely game related reasons. Honesty will be the best course of action since your motives, sooner or later, will get out there, so better keep it honest. The fact that I tell you to be honest doesn't make it okay to start being too honest and start ranting about him. Just keep it as honest and professional as you would leave a job. Thank him for DMing for the time you've enjoyed his game, tell him you find your enjoyment for the game lies elsehwere with a different style, and whatever you do, don't flip him off, don't get mad, don't give him a reason to get you kicked out of the other game. Meanwhile, prepare everything he did against you that was unfair and plain wrong or dickish, write it down/typoe it out and print it, and keep it with you, though keep silent about it. Whatever he does to you in the meantime, don't show your aces as it were. If he might make a fuss at the other game and try to wriggle you out of that game, say you didn't want to go this far and dump the stuff he did against you on the table for everyone to see. If the group still wants to keep him over you, so be it, you'd be better off with another group anyway, if they keep you over him (I can't imagine them keeping you both after this infodump) then you've found a good group. Meanwhile, find a nice game here on GitP and try some PbP (some of use are really nice and a few of us might even nog bite :smallwink:). I'm sure you will find something to your liking.

[Talakeal]

DM in question is close to fifty.

[marphod]

1) Do any of the other players in this game play in your Saturday game?

2) Do you want any help finding In-Person DnD/PF Games?

2a) Where in New Mexico are you?

3) Do you want any help finding online DnD/PF Games?

[Feddlefew]

DM in question is close to fifty.
:smallconfused:
I would not have guessed that.

[Talakeal]

I havent even confronted him yet and he is already making trouble. Last night during the (good) game he was telling the DM that if he were running this game be would have killed my character off long ago to teach me a lesson.


1) Do any of the other players in this game play in your Saturday game?

2) Do you want any help finding In-Person DnD/PF Games?

2a) Where in New Mexico are you?

3) Do you want any help finding online DnD/PF Games?

I am in Southern New Mexico. I would be happy to join a new in person game, but I am not sure if I am ready to make the jump to online gaming at this point, maybe if something does happen to disintigrate my good game.

[JNAProductions]

I havent even confronted him yet and he is already making trouble. Last night during the (good) game he was telling the DM that if he were running this game be would have killed my character off long ago to teach me a lesson.

That's just plain rude. Talk to your Saturday group about him.

[smcmike]

Don't confront the bad DM. Just make a polite excuse and stop attending his campaign. Talk to the good one privately and explain the situation without getting into specifics. You aren't asking him to referee the dispute, just informing him.

[Threadnaught]

I am not sure if I am ready to make the jump to online gaming at this point, maybe if something does happen to disintigrate my good game.

Half of my group have extended a welcome to join.

Several others in this very thread are willing to accept you as a player since your system mastery would help you fit right in. I'm not extending an invitation out of altruism, your system mastery means you'll fit in right away and you seem capable of creating interesting and functional characters. An additional player to interact with would make the game more interesting and therefore more fun.

More book keeping, but still about 30% more interesting than it is now.

[frogglesmash]

Another suggestion would be to do something like "2375 things Mr. Welch can no longer do during an RPG (http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html), except about crazy, stupid things your DM has done." This won't solve anything, but I sure will enjoy it.

[YossarianLives]

As much as I adore tabletop RPGs the hobby seems to attract some of the worst dregs of humanity. It's no wonder RPGs had a bad reputation back in the 80s.

[Sliver]

Are the members of Good Group aware of the... Quirks, of the Bad DM? If you were to tell Good DM that you are quitting BD's game and that he would bring unwanted drama to GG's table, would GD try to convince you to not quit, or would he understand?

If GD handles things well, then quitting BD's game would mean that GD tells him to keep his drama away from the game, BD continues pouting and telling others they are wrong when telling him how to handle it, and ends up being kicked out of GG.

If GD handles it poorly, then BD's whining will cause GD to ask you to either rejoin BD's game or leave GD's game, because you are not confrontational, have proven to be easy to manipulate and your most extreme actions have been to post rants about it online.

Stop letting others dictate how you should spend your free time. You are the only one who should get to decide when you suffer during that time.

Or at least get paid for participating in BD's game.

[Nifft]

As much as I adore tabletop RPGs the hobby seems to attract some of the worst dregs of humanity. It's no wonder RPGs had a bad reputation back in the 80s.

Horrible people accumulate in all hobbies, simply because you can't fire people from a hobby for being horrible.

[marphod]

I am in Southern New Mexico. I would be happy to join a new in person game, but I am not sure if I am ready to make the jump to online gaming at this point, maybe if something does happen to disintigrate my good game.

Las Crucres? Carlsbad? Deming? Silver City?

How far from El Paso, TX?

28-30 August is Bubonicon in Albuquerque ( http://bubonicon.com/ ) SF Convention with some gaming.

Las Cruces Game Knights hosts a convention (http://lcgameknights.webs.com/apps/calendar/showEvent?calID=5339451&eventID=236704858) usally in august

Amtgard (Boffer LARP) has a kingdom based in Las Cruces (http://www.larping.org/larps/listing/amtgard-kingdom-of-dragonspine/)

There are a couple of gamer meetups in El paso ( http://www.meetup.com/SWAGamers/ , http://www.meetup.com/SCORPion/ )

There is a gaming meertup in Lubbock, TX ( http://www.meetup.com/TheNCG-Lubbock-Chapter/ ) and Odessa, TX (http://www.meetup.com/omlfg1/)

The gaming meetup in Albuquerque has some good references ( http://www.meetup.com/abqrpg/ )

[Segev]

I havent even confronted him yet and he is already making trouble. Last night during the (good) game he was telling the DM that if he were running this game be would have killed my character off long ago to teach me a lesson.

Did the DM of the Saturday game have reason to be upset with you, at least in his own mind, when the bad DM made this not-so-veilled suggestion to punish you? This is important to ascertain in order to determine how the bad DM's behavior might seem to those in the Saturday game.

If it's not too much to ask, a brief description of the story leading up to and surrounding the bad DM's not-so-veilled suggestion would be useful.

[bean illus]

/snip Meanwhile, find a nice game here on GitP and try some PbP (some of use are really nice and a few of us might even nog bite :smallwink:). I'm sure you will find something to your liking.

Uhhmmm... I've been looking for a pbp here for a couple months, and have had zero luck, even though my sig says i want a game.
...So if anyone knows anyone who would slide a low level character into a midpowered game....pm me.

As for the OP, I wonder if you should try DMing from low levels.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Uhhmmm... I've been looking for a pbp here for a couple months, and have had zero luck, even though my sig says i want a game.Silly question, but have you tried the subforum for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-Finding-Players-%28Recruitment%29)? Generally GMs put out recruitment threads and people reply to them, rather than just putting a thing in your signature and expecting people to PM you. It's very active over there, especially if you're looking for a 3.P game.

[Threadnaught]

Uhhmmm... I've been looking for a pbp here for a couple months, and have had zero luck, even though my sig says i want a game.

At the risk of breaking eight forum rules.

I really do believe it's because you may not be putting yourself out enough. Perhaps if you were more vocal, more people would "hear" you.

[bean illus]

Silly question, but have you tried the subforum for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-Finding-Players-%28Recruitment%29)? Generally GMs put out recruitment threads and people reply to them, rather than just putting a thing in your signature and expecting people to PM you. It's very active over there, especially if you're looking for a 3.P game.

Yes, i go there every few days. I seem to get there too late each time, so far.
Another dealbreaker for me is that i really only want to play 3.5ish, not Steam Punk or WWII or 90% homebrew, etc. I don't own Pathfinder.... etc


At the risk of breaking eight forum rules.

I really do believe it's because you may not be putting yourself out enough. Perhaps if you were more vocal, more people would "hear" you.

Thanks for your response (both of you). I have PMd several GMs and they were nice, but full. So, when i saw so much help here I decided to "risk" and be more vocal. No offense intended to the OP, which i have responded to multiple times about his post.

[Segev]

I'd PM one or more of the DMs who's posted that they could take another player in this thread. While they might say Talekeal has first dibs (given they made the offer to him here), they might also have room for you if Talekeal doesn't take them up on it.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, i go there every few days. I seem to get there too late each time, so far.
Another dealbreaker for me is that i really only want to play 3.5ish, not Steam Punk or WWII or 90% homebrew, etc. I don't own Pathfinder.... etc
Come to the unofficial IRC! #giantitp on Gamesurge (gamesurge.net/chat) (after it connects you, type in "/join #giantitp" without the quotes), people run a lot of games there and it's mostly 3.5.

[CrazyYanmega]

I havent even confronted him yet and he is already making trouble. Last night during the (good) game he was telling the DM that if he were running this game be would have killed my character off long ago to teach me a lesson.

Okay, I know I've been off this forum for a while, and thus don't really know the full story besides what's on this thread. But you need to leave your Saturday game as well. It sounds like this guy wasn't reprimanded for his actions that are CLEARLY out of line (if I were the DM I'd have kicked him on the spot, even if he had a gun to my head). People have been asking what your Saturday DM is like, and I think we just got our answer.

As for Roll20, I use it and I've had my share of gems and flops. One gem I found was my Saturday morning game. The stats the DM gave us are ridiculous, and he'll approve practically anything. Case in point, my backup character, an AWAKENED GIANT SCARAB CLERIC WITH HITDICE REMOVED AND +3 LA. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=305382) When I first joined I joined for the giggles, expecting it to flop and for the group to steamroll everything. However the DM actually knew what he was doing and has prevented us from yet obtaining a decisive victory by outsmarting and outmaneuvering his players.

So just because something seems bad at first, give it some time and test the waters. If you really need that face-to-face touch, put up an ad in your local tabletop hobby shop stating that you're looking for a game.

[Sayt]

an AWAKENED GIANT SCARAB CLERIC WITH HITDICE REMOVED AND +3 LA. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=305382)

Holy **** that's cool. Damnit, now I want to play a Nerubian, and I haven't even played a Warcraft since 3!

[marphod]

I don't own Pathfinder....

You may not realize it, but nearly all of Pathfinder is available for free at d20pfsrd.com ; unlike 3.5, usually the only things not released under the OGL are setting-specific.

[137beth]

I actually tried playing a game on roll20. It was a complete disaster on so many levels. The software was just horrible, and without being able to look the players in the eye or read body oanguage it just devolved into long periods of silence waiting for everyone else to say something.



That would only work if his ban list was consistent from session to session. It most assuradly is not.



Actually I tried volunteering to run a game and the Dm told me he refuses t ever play in another game again. He is playing in thhe other game because he was already in it before he came to this decision, but from now on he will never start playing in a new game where he is not the DM. He actually admitted he cant stand the feeling of not being in complete control.

....wow. Has he banned Antimony and dolphins yet?

[Psyren]

You may not realize it, but nearly all of Pathfinder is available for free at d20pfsrd.com ; unlike 3.5, usually the only things not released under the OGL are setting-specific.

And even those are legally available on fansites, like Pathfindercommunity.net or ArchivesofNethys.com. The PFSRD had to stop hosting the Golarion stuff because they have a non-Paizo store attached.

[Socratov]

while very accessible the change from 3.5 to PF (or to learn the new system anyway) could bery well be a bit mroe challenging then some people make it out to be... But that is just my opinion...

[Threadnaught]

Thanks for your response (both of you). I have PMd several GMs and they were nice, but full. So, when i saw so much help here I decided to "risk" and be more vocal. No offense intended to the OP, which i have responded to multiple times about his post.

That's okay, I may have underestimated your post count while making my comment as you have been rather active recently.
Without spamming, just try to make yourself known a little more here, while continuing to inquire about openings in the PbP forum. If all else fails, there's room for a player in my group, depending on what times you can do. Also a rather unwieldy notepad document is required for character creation, because I'm a cheapskate and none of the free character Sheet creation software online has access to everything in 3.x, or at least the dozen or so that I've tried.
Also the books are expensive enough, gerroff my back.

A few posters may be interested in joining me just to learn why I get so annoyed about the player I refer to as that ******* Druid, this (http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html) should explain it perfectly. Sometimes during a session I refer to him with that guy's name.

[Hawkstar]

I suggest leaving his game. Suggest to run your own game. If he objects, tell him you weren't asking him, and he's happy to not attend.

If he asks you to come back to his game at the Saturday game, tell him you're not, and if he asks why, for any reason, flat out tell him, in front of everyone, that "You're a bully, abuser, and control freak."

[jstingray]

Become a bard, just to spite them. Or say that you need to take some more time for more important things, like family or something like that.

[Jarmen4u]

Become a bard, just to spite them. Or say that you need to take some more time for more important things, like family or something like that.

Pretty sure he said early in the thread that bards are banned.

[Gabrosin]

Pretty sure he said early in the thread that bards are banned.

Ah, but could he take levels in something like Commoner, then just get an instrument and start singing? He can act like he's inspiring courage even if there's no benefit.

[Talakeal]

Ah, but could he take levels in something like Commoner, then just get an instrument and start singing? He can act like he's inspiring courage even if there's no benefit.

You know, I actually asked if I could play an expert at one point, and was told that Expert and Adept were OP on player characters and only available to NPCs. I can't imagine commoner going over better.


Okay, I know I've been off this forum for a while, and thus don't really know the full story besides what's on this thread. But you need to leave your Saturday game as well. It sounds like this guy wasn't reprimanded for his actions that are CLEARLY out of line (if I were the DM I'd have kicked him on the spot, even if he had a gun to my head). People have been asking what your Saturday DM is like, and I think we just got our answer.


That's a bit harsh for one nasty comment. Even the best of us say things that are rude and out of line occasionally, I am just afraid that it is the beginning of a pattern...


Las Crucres? Carlsbad? Deming? Silver City?

How far from El Paso, TX?

28-30 August is Bubonicon in Albuquerque ( http://bubonicon.com/ ) SF Convention with some gaming.

Las Cruces Game Knights hosts a convention (http://lcgameknights.webs.com/apps/calendar/showEvent?calID=5339451&eventID=236704858) usally in august

Amtgard (Boffer LARP) has a kingdom based in Las Cruces (http://www.larping.org/larps/listing/amtgard-kingdom-of-dragonspine/)

There are a couple of gamer meetups in El paso ( http://www.meetup.com/SWAGamers/ , http://www.meetup.com/SCORPion/ )

There is a gaming meertup in Lubbock, TX ( http://www.meetup.com/TheNCG-Lubbock-Chapter/ ) and Odessa, TX (http://www.meetup.com/omlfg1/)

The gaming meetup in Albuquerque has some good references ( http://www.meetup.com/abqrpg/ )

That's hitting a bit close to home. I am pretty sure the DM in question is actually a member of several of those organizations...


Did the DM of the Saturday game have reason to be upset with you, at least in his own mind, when the bad DM made this not-so-veilled suggestion to punish you? This is important to ascertain in order to determine how the bad DM's behavior might seem to those in the Saturday game.

If it's not too much to ask, a brief description of the story leading up to and surrounding the bad DM's not-so-veilled suggestion would be useful.

Its a really weird situation and probably worthy of its own thread.

Basically, our party is on a "spirit quest" of sorts travelling in a world of our dreams. My character is very determined and pragmatic and doesn't see the point in interacting with figments of our imagination and wasting time, especially when we have a very important quest to attend to in the real world.

As a player I am interested in and entertained by the scenario, but my character is not, so I am RPing being bored and disinterested in everything that happens. Eventually I (IC) got fed up with it and decided to confront the dream BBEG directly to force a confrontation and end the scenario quickly and decisively one way or another.

The Game Master apparently read to much into it and asked if I was planning on leaving the party and bringing in a new character to relieve my boredom and I said no.

Then one of the other players said "Well, it looks to me like you are just asking for the DM to kill your character," (Keep in mind we are in a dream, and AFAIK either in or out of character we cannot die in the dream.

Then "Bad DM" said something to the effect of "Hell, if I was the DM I would have already killed his character several times to teach him a lesson."

[Malimar]

You know, I actually asked if I could play an expert at one point, and was told that Expert and Adept were OP on player characters and only available to NPCs. I can't imagine commoner going over better.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/664/103/14f.jpg

[Talakeal]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/664/103/14f.jpg

I think he said adepts are OP because they "get both wizard and cleric spells" and experts are OP because they get so many skills that if you allow that class people will just take it at first level, load up on skill points, and then multi class out of it.

[Sayt]

I think he said adepts are OP because they "get both wizard and cleric spells" and experts are OP because they get so many skills that if you allow that class people will just take it at first level, load up on skill points, and then multi class out of it.

You mean like people could do with rogue, but don't, really?

Or does he ban rogue as well?

[Talakeal]

You mean like people could do with rogue, but don't, really?

Or does he ban rogue as well?

I don't know. He has some weird niche protection thing about rogues being "THE skill monkey." Hence why he bans bards and gives them free skill focus but bans it for other characters.

[The Glyphstone]

Y


That's hitting a bit close to home. I am pretty sure the DM in question is actually a member of several of those organizations...

"

What does that have to do with anything? Do you dislike him so much that you can't participate in any group where he might also show up?

[Talakeal]

What does that have to do with anything? Do you dislike him so much that you can't participate in any group where he might also show up?

No; but if he makes trouble in my Saturday group to the point where I need to find a new game I can't imagine he won't do so elsewhere.

[Balmas]

No; but if he makes trouble in my Saturday group to the point where I need to find a new game I can't imagine he won't do so elsewhere.

It's been said before, but I think we need to emphasize something. You are putting up with his BS right now, because you don't want to deal with what he might do in the future.

There are groups that don't have a tyrannical manchild running them. If he follows you, I advise you seek the help of your DM.

[Keltest]

It's been said before, but I think we need to emphasize something. You are putting up with his BS right now, because you don't want to deal with what he might do in the future.

There are groups that don't have a tyrannical manchild running them. If he follows you, I advise you seek the help of your DM.

Exactly this. Odds are, there are significantly more DM's who wont put up with him trying to cause problems than ones who will inexplicably approve of his behavior. If he causes problems in another game, talk to the DM and get him booted for poor conduct.

[Rubik]

There are groups that don't have a tyrannical manchild running them.Fixed that for you. Nothing in his behavior even hints at the word "adult," and even insinuating that he is one is an affront to adults everywhere, men and women alike.

[TheIronGolem]

No; but if he makes trouble in my Saturday group to the point where I need to find a new game I can't imagine he won't do so elsewhere.

You're using the specter of what he might possibly do in the future as an excuse to passively accept what he is doing, right now. Because you'd rather do that than stand up for yourself, even in a situation where the stakes seriously could not be any lower.

Forget about D&D for a moment; does this really seem like a rational way to handle anything?

[AvatarVecna]

You're using the specter of what he might possibly do in the future as an excuse to passively accept what he is doing, right now. Because you'd rather do that than stand up for yourself, even in a situation where the stakes seriously could not be any lower.

Forget about D&D for a moment; does this really seem like a rational way to handle anything?

It is at times, when you know for a fact that the result of defiance will occur, and will be worse than what you're currently going through. I'm not sure either of those qualifiers applies to this situation though. Of course, I'm not the one in the situation, so I couldn't say for sure.

@OP

Do you know for an absolute fact that this guy will attempt to make your social life hell if you leave his game? Do you know for a fact that he is guaranteed to succeed in doing so, should he attempt to do so? If not, then there is a less than 100% chance of your situation not getting better if you leave, and a 100% chance of your situation not getting better if you stay. Even if it's only a 99.999% chance that it won't get better if you leave his game, that's still the better option.

[bean illus]

Ah, but could he take levels in something like Commoner, then just get an instrument and start singing? He can act like he's inspiring courage even if there's no benefit.

lol. he could get a mundane pet, too. He would not be multi classed as a bard/ranger.

[Rubik]

lol. he could get a mundane pet, too. He would not be multi classed as a bard/ranger.There's the grig's master fiddle in Savage Species that gives you all the bardic abilities of a level 9 bard.

And just because this thread needs more entertainment:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ERhzs_If3U

[marphod]

No; but if he makes trouble in my Saturday group to the point where I need to find a new game I can't imagine he won't do so elsewhere.

I...

Ah....

Uhhhh.....

Buuut...

Whaaaat...

Suuuuuurely...

For the love of...

Sweet heebeeejeeebeees batman.

I get it. I'm empathetic. I've been in the situation where a bully has made my life more painful than it needed to be, and ended up cutting me off from things I enjoyed doing and people I had fun with. The solution isn't to hide and pretend things are going to get better on their own. You need to reach out to find other social connections. Maybe he is involved in some of those groups, and maybe he even has some authority in one or two. There are still plenty of others. Give them a shot. If he's not there, you win. If he is there, see what it is like. The others there might tolerate him less than you do.

[CrazyYanmega]

No; but if he makes trouble in my Saturday group to the point where I need to find a new game I can't imagine he won't do so elsewhere.

Dude, if he harasses you like that, I'm pretty sure that's legal grounds for a restraining order. I'd need someone who's actually from the particular state to see if that is feasible.

(Off Topic) Didn't think you'd know about Touhou, Rubik.

[Rubik]

(Off Topic) Didn't think you'd know about Touhou, Rubik.I've watched Let's Plays of bullet hell games, though I'm not about to play one.

[Andezzar]

I get it. I'm empathetic. I've been in the situation where a bully has made my life more painful than it needed to be, and ended up cutting me off from things I enjoyed doing and people I had fun with. The solution isn't to hide and pretend things are going to get better on their own. You need to reach out to find other social connections. Maybe he is involved in some of those groups, and maybe he even has some authority in one or two. There are still plenty of others. Give them a shot. If he's not there, you win. If he is there, see what it is like. The others there might tolerate him less than you do.Heed his advice. That guy can't be everywhere. If he follows you, he won't have seniority in that new group, and there actually are some reasonable people playing D&D. He'll get booted pretty quickly. Do you know if he is interested in games that are not D&D? If not, he'll be a lot less inclined to follow you.

As for the situation in the Saturday game, have you ever mentioned OOC that you are not bored, but that you are playing a character that is bored with the dream quest? The other players might not be accustomed to people that do not necessarily project all their feelings, opinions into their characters.

[fishyfishyfishy]

What exactly do you want from this forum? You keep making these threads seeking help and yet you continuously ignore every bit of practical advice you are given. Do you want validation that it's ok to continue suffering through this nonsense? If that's the case you will not find that here. You had my sympathy the first few times you started a discussion about this, but now it's getting tiring. Do something, anything, or just stop complaining about it. You've been handed dozens of valid alternatives and now you need to act. Lamenting over your situation with strangers on the internet will get you no where.

[Anlashok]

What exactly do you want from this forum?

Obviously he's looking to share ridiculous stories and maybe get some sympathy or empathy.

There's also the chance that the DM in question doesn't actually exist at all and the OP is just making up silly stories for his and our amusement. That would rather succinctly explain both why he refuses to fix the problem and the utter absurdity of some of the houserules in question.

[TiaC]

Obviously he's looking to share ridiculous stories and maybe get some sympathy or empathy.

There's also the chance that the DM in question doesn't actually exist at all and the OP is just making up silly stories for his and our amusement. That would rather succinctly explain both why he refuses to fix the problem and the utter absurdity of some of the houserules in question.

He was dead all along! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxYtwZUKn5I)

[EldritchWeaver]

That's hitting a bit close to home. I am pretty sure the DM in question is actually a member of several of those organizations...

It's unlikely that all members would condone this kind of behavior. Hell, the group I'm playing in has four DMs and those are clearly different persons which are not likely to react the very same way. I can't imagine you having such a bad luck that people won't be willing to help once you raise the issue.


What exactly do you want from this forum? You keep making these threads seeking help and yet you continuously ignore every bit of practical advice you are given. Do you want validation that it's ok to continue suffering through this nonsense? If that's the case you will not find that here. You had my sympathy the first few times you started a discussion about this, but now it's getting tiring. Do something, anything, or just stop complaining about it. You've been handed dozens of valid alternatives and now you need to act. Lamenting over your situation with strangers on the internet will get you no where.

I agree. If you are willing to stay in the bad DM's game because what he might do otherwise given the chance, you are leaving only one possibility - move away! Or take some therapy to stop being a doormat.

[Socratov]

you know, the longer I'm reading this, the more it starts to resemble a car crash: horrible to look at, but for some eldritch reason you can't look away...

[Auron3991]

If you absolutely won't walk away from this game, I have three words to give this (insert Maxwell's statements to Integra replacing the word Protestant with whatever works) a piece of your mind:

Chicken. Infested. Commoner.

Mix in some informing him that if the weakest class in the game with a feat designed to be a penalty is too powerful, there is literally no character in existence that will work in his game (if he's going to use insane troll logic, then he better be prepared for it in return). Add a dash of doing it in front of the whole table and you might just have a great dish of sweet revenge crafted.


or you could always try sneaking a D2 crusader build past him. Watch the game implode itself after he starts throwing books the first time you deal infinite damage with the added benefit of him not being able to convince others he was in the right:

Potential Player: "You threw books at people?"
Bad DM: "He broke my game!"
Potential Player: "You...threw books. At people."

And, if the above doesn't work, there's always amazing uses for household items. Many of them quite funny and disruptive to his game. This guy doesn't deserve cooperative players.

[Segev]

The thing about organized groups such as run at cons or the pathfinder society or the like is that it doesn't matter if the Bad DM is a member of those groups. He can't kick you out or ostricize you; those groups have specified rules of behavior that, if you stay within them, they cannot refuse you.

I'm not normally one for suggesting using the letter of their rules to force yourself on anybody, but I offer it here as a confidence-builder to reasssure you that he can't ruin these things for you. His behaviors that you fear will be used to slander and villify you are on the list of explicitly banned behaviors; he would get himself kicked out before you were. And then you can try to mend any damaged bridges.



Again, leave the bad DM's game, and do so as politely as you can. Act like you assume that's the end of it. In the Saturday game, you should make sure you let your DM know that you are actually enjoying the scenario; your character just isn't. You are enjoying playing a character who is not happy with the situation. If need be, talk to the other players, too. Explain your IC assumptions - that it can't kill your PC, so he isn't afraid of death and doesn't think he'll be separated from the party, and that this will get them back on the real-world quest he thinks is more important - and emphasize that you're not at all upset by the way this is going, OOC.

Be willing to be sensitive if your PC's actions or attitude are causing problems for the other players' enjoyment (not their characters', theirs). You can tone down his grumbling or decide he's resigned to seeing this through so throws himself at getting it done as efficiently as possible.

If it seems trouble is being stirred up, explain that you worry that the bad DM is taking his frustrations from the bad DM's game out on you. Bring up the possibility of you dropping out of that game to smooth things over, as if you're making a concession to show that you're reasonable. Maybe even mention that the only reason you haven't yet is because you're worried it would offend the bad DM, and you don't want to create strain at this Saturday game, and you're enjoying it far too much to want to risk damaging it or your place in it.

Overall, be honest and polite and open about the difference between your PC and your attitudes. Use this to bring up your concerns over the bad DM's game and your place in it and how it might impact your place in the good game. Again, be honest about your desire to stay in the Saturday game, and (reading the reactions of the others) be open about your willingness to drop out of the bad game and your concerns about doing so. If they're sympathetic, culminate with the point that you're not having fun in that one, and let them talk you into dropping out of it to ease tensions.

That way, when you do so, if the bad DM tries to stir trouble over it, they're already on your side in the Saturday game.

[Earthwalker]

As always thanks OP for sharing the insanity you find in the world. I have to say I do enjoy alot of the things your GM says to you.

Onethly, I will mirror the group think and say getting out of this game would be double plus good. Just politely take your leave, no fuss no muss.

Twothly I have to say as a GM I am unsure if I would tell the difference between a bored player and an interested player who was playing his character as bored. I think playing bored as the character would just make me think this story line wasn't working. If you haven't already I would maybe explain your situation to good DM, and the group.

[Segev]

I have to say as a GM I am unsure if I would tell the difference between a bored player and an interested player who was playing his character as bored. I think playing bored as the character would just make me think this story line wasn't working. If you haven't already I would maybe explain your situation to good DM, and the group.I just want to re-emphasize this. Make sure your DM and the other players know that you're enjoying it.

This is an in-person game, so it shouldn't be too hard to show your OOC excitement when you're not puppetting your character. Just make it clear when you slip into character. Showily drop your excited demeanor after saying, "Alright, so my character says..." or something along those lines. Then play your bored character. Drop ostentatiously back OOC to show your own excitement as things develop when not making your character say things.

And, again, just openly tell them that you're liking it, and are just playing a character who doesn't. You enjoy your character's dissatisfaction, here. It is not you being dissatisfied. "Sometimes people do enjoy watching Grumpy be Grumpy."

[MatrixStone93]

I'm in agreement for everyone above- You should probably just walk away. That- Or take the mantle of DM yourself, and provide advice for everyone.

If you feel like being dumb, play something incredibly stupid- A Lute-Wielding pixie bard who is both buffer and utility, who dances around singing fairy songs with a magic wand she uses to tap people and apply buffs to make everyone into living gods. Preferably, she should be wearing bright, florescent pink fairy outfit, and should generally seem as innocent as physically possible.

Please stat this for a game with starting level ten. That sounds like the greatest possible thing.

[Jormengand]

And just because this thread needs more entertainment:

No, you can't have ranks in perform (Phone).

[Andezzar]

I'm guess in D20 Modern you could.

[ComaVision]

I generally enjoy your posts, Tala, but at this point I'm fairly convinced you're either trolling or a giant pushover in real life.

[thompur]

I would second the Organized play option(Pathfinder Society/whatever the 5E one is called).
Even if you don't like O.P. much, it's a great network for finding and/or organizing home games.
When I moved to Maryland 7 years ago, I lost touch with gaming. Then I found PFS through Meetup, and soon I was playing in 2 different home games, one Pathfinder, one D&D 3.5.
Also, the advantage of Meetup, and maybe Warhorn(I've never used it so don't know for sure) is that when you sign up on line, you can see who else is playing. Even if your nemesis uses an alias, after the first time, you'll know who he is, and be able to avoid him.:smallwink:

[Talakeal]

Heed his advice. That guy can't be everywhere. If he follows you, he won't have seniority in that new group, and there actually are some reasonable people playing D&D. He'll get booted pretty quickly. Do you know if he is interested in games that are not D&D? If not, he'll be a lot less inclined to follow you.

Hold on a sec, I never said that I was afraid of him following me. I said I think he might already BE a member of some of those groups, and that it would be really awkward to have it out with him and leave his group (and to potentially leave the other group we are both members of) only to then show up for another game he was in. I didn't say that he was going to follow me or that I refused to leave his group because he might, people are putting a lot of words in my mouth.


What exactly do you want from this forum? You keep making these threads seeking help and yet you continuously ignore every bit of practical advice you are given. Do you want validation that it's ok to continue suffering through this nonsense? If that's the case you will not find that here. You had my sympathy the first few times you started a discussion about this, but now it's getting tiring. Do something, anything, or just stop complaining about it. You've been handed dozens of valid alternatives and now you need to act. Lamenting over your situation with strangers on the internet will get you no where.


Obviously he's looking to share ridiculous stories and maybe get some sympathy or empathy.

There's also the chance that the DM in question doesn't actually exist at all and the OP is just making up silly stories for his and our amusement. That would rather succinctly explain both why he refuses to fix the problem and the utter absurdity of some of the houserules in question.

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game. Putting up with his abuse is one thing, but when he is flat out lying and cheating by telling me something is banned but then letting another play take it is crossing a line to far.

All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes.

[TheIronGolem]

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game.

If you mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432730-Skill-Focus-is-OP!-Or-more-****-my-DM-says/page3&p=19644756#post19644756), okay, but you did immediately go on to talk about what would happen "if [emp. mine] I leave his game" right after that, so you'll have to forgive us for misunderstanding.

In any case, the thing to do now is get ahead of this by informing the other DM ASAP about your plans to leave That Guy's game and your suspicions that he'll bring drama into their game about it. If they understand, cool. If they have a problem with it, leave that game too.

Either way, contact That Guy right afterwards and tell him you're out of his game. Do NOT entertain any questions from him about it, just state your intent and end the conversation (I recommend email or texting to make this easier).

If you remain in the other game, be polite to That Guy, but be firm about being out of his game for good should he bring it up. Any kind of "okay, one last chance" deal, and you're just signing up for another round of all this.

[Rakoa]

All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes.

Honesty is the best policy. Tell him exactly why you're leaving (not in an accusatory tone, but just tell him) and if he kicks up a fuss in the other group over it, explain it to them exactly as you did to him. They'll understand that he's crazy and that'll be the end of it. Or they'll take his side, in which case you're better off without him. There will be other games.

[illyahr]

I could say many things but most have been covered. What I will say is this: he may be a member of those other groups but so are we. Honest and decent gamers like us are everywhere and we won't stand for guys like that. We will stand with you. *cue dramatic musical theme*

His Royal Bardness has spoken.

And honestly, who bans bards? Seriously?

[fishyfishyfishy]

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game. Putting up with his abuse is one thing, but when he is flat out lying and cheating by telling me something is banned but then letting another play take it is crossing a line to far.


Well good. It wasn't really obvious to me that's what you were doing, thank you for clarifying.

I hope it turns out well for you.

[Nifft]

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game. Putting up with his abuse is one thing, but when he is flat out lying and cheating by telling me something is banned but then letting another play take it is crossing a line to far.

All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes. Good for you.

Some advice:
- Take the initiative and set the context to avoid any future conflict. Tell the DM of the game you do like that you're leaving the other game. Tell everyone you trust in the "good" game. Tell them all of this privately ~BEFORE~ you leave the bad DM's game.
- Ask them for advice in specific wording. They know this guy better than we do.
- When possible, use neutral language. "Yeah, it just seemed like we had incompatible playstyles."
- Break up in a public forum, with witnesses. Tell the bad DM that you're leaving his game either via an email to the whole group, or at the table of the good DM.

[Andezzar]

Hold on a sec, I never said that I was afraid of him following me. I said I think he might already BE a member of some of those groups, and that it would be really awkward to have it out with him and leave his group (and to potentially leave the other group we are both members of) only to then show up for another game he was in. I didn't say that he was going to follow me or that I refused to leave his group because he might, people are putting a lot of words in my mouth.Sorry, if I misinterpreted what you said. Anyways, to avoid meeting with the bad DM in a new group just ask the group if they know the bad DM and make your joining contingent on their answer.

[Yahzi]

All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes.
Several people have told you the answer. You simply say that due to RL commitments you don't have time for 2 games, so you're cutting back to just one. If he asks you why you chose the other game, you just say "because it's more fun.""

Since both of these are true (the first one as your time allotment for "being a doormat" has recently been drastically reduced), you will find that they work well for you. If he tries to argue that his game is more fun, you just say, "Fun is a matter of opinion; I had to pick one, and I picked that one." The rest of the group will respect that, and in time, he will too. (Because once you stop submitting to his bullying he will go find someone else to pick on.)

[TiaC]

If he asks you why you chose the other game, you just say "because it's more fun."
It would also work to say "because I have an established character in that game."

[Sliver]

I thought Bad DM hates not being in control and is unwilling to be a player, only participating in Good Game because he decided on this afterwards... How likely is it that Bad DM plays in other games as well?

You should ask him if he plays in other games before letting him know you quit his!

[Mystral]

I seriously have problems believing anything about this story.

[Talakeal]

I seriously have problems believing anything about this story.

I honestly dont blame you. I am not sure I would believe it myself if I hadnt lived through it, and I havent gone into half the details of just how weird this guy is. All I can do is give you my word that aside from a few simplifications for the sake of brevity this story is absolutely true, but as some stranger on the internet that isnt worht much.

I suppose it is testament to just how horrible a DM he is that people prefer to believe that I made him up rather than accept that he could really exist. Reminds me of the classic Simpsons episode:




Doctor: Mrs. Simpson, I'm sorry, but your husband suffers from a persecution complex, extreme paranoia, and... bladder hostility.

Marge: Doctor, if you just talk to him for five minutes without mentioning our son Bart, you'd see how sane he is.

Doctor: You mean there really is a Bart? Good lord!

[Strigon]

Look. This guy has it in for you; for whatever reason, he is trying to shut you down, hard. Specifically you.
I mean he doesn't seem like a great DM even to people he likes, but it's gotten to the point where he is obviously trying to ruin your life in whatever small way he can.

You do not, in any way, owe him an apology, and explanation, or anything resembling those things. Talk to the other members of the group. Explain what's going on, show them these threads, and point out times he's been a jerk (like telling the other DM you should've been killed off long ago). If he tries to start something, call him out on it.
No need to be a jerk, but you can afford to be blunt. Right now, all you need is for the other players to see what a jerk he's being to you, and if they have even a half-decent memory, that shouldn't be hard!

TELL THE OTHER PLAYERS. GET OUT OF HIS GAME. CALL HIM OUT WHEN HE STEPS OUT OF LINE.

He'll either get used to the idea that he no longer has power over you, or dig himself into a hole so deep he'll get kicked out of your other game.

[zinycor]

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game. Putting up with his abuse is one thing, but when he is flat out lying and cheating by telling me something is banned but then letting another play take it is crossing a line to far.

All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes.

Don't breaking to him... just don't show up at his game. If he asks you something, but you don't feel like saying the truth just tell him that you have been busy, doing whatever you feel like.

I would just tell him that you don't like the way he runs the game, and call it a day, ut you seem to think that's out of question.

[137beth]

You can just tell him
"I have not been enjoying your game."
Simple, and don't answer further questions as to why.

[Keltest]

You can just tell him
"I have not been enjoying your game."
Simple, and don't answer further questions as to why.

Or do answer why, and if he tries to defend himself tell him that your opinions are not up for discussion. If he gets feedback that he ignores, that's on him, but if people don't tell him what he does wrong, he definitely wont ever improve.

[Tectorman]

How did this end up getting resolved? Curious minds want to know.

[TheifofZ]

As everyone is being aggressively reasonable about this, I feel I must contribute some idea that is clearly extreme.
Have you tried skinning him and wearing his face as a mask to better understand him? I hear it does wonders for seeing things from his point of view.

But yeah, get out, find somewhere cool, (these guys are usually pretty boss), and do better for yourself.

[prufock]

As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game.
*very slow clap* It's about damn time.


All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him
I've decided not to continue this game.
Why?
Because I'm not having fun.
Why?
Because you're bad and your game is bad.

[Dren Nas]

I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but make PunPun. Show him how a real op character can be. Then if he complains(and he will), ask him about that paladin with skill focus.

[Nifft]

I've decided not to continue this game.
Why?
Because I'm not having fun. Good!

Why?
Because you're bad and your game is bad. No, no, no! Bad!

Don't pick a fight -- don't give him any opportunity to turn this against you.


Option 1:

"Why aren't you having fun?"

"Because I'm not."


Option 2:

"Why aren't you having fun?"

"Would you be having fun?"

"Yes."

"I guess we're different."


Option 3:

"Why aren't you having fun?"

"Creative differences."

[Solaris]

Please please please please please please please PLEASE let this not be the same abomination of a DM you've been complaining about once a week for over a y—



—Aaaaaand it is.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b8f249c157fa22f9a06b85b09f338041/tumblr_nocuhzDA5k1u8zsalo1_500.gif
ALL RIGHT, no more Mr. Nice Poster, this has gone so far past the point that my considerable schadenfreude can handle.

**** your hang ups; **** your worrying; **** the Stockholm Syndrome that I seriously think you have; **** any and all social issues that are, aren't, might be, or you even think could possibly be or come into play. If you value the very IDEA of gaming you will tell this guy in no uncertain terms that you're so tired of his **** he's lucky to still have either of his kneecaps; that you would rather shoot yourself than ever again so much as be in the same building as any game he's DMing; that if he really wants you in his game that badly he should have thought about that before adamantly remaining a piece of scum despite your numerous protests; that if he has a problem with any of the prior things you've just said he can shove it up his ass; and, most importantly, that if he even THINKS of bringing any of this up in the Saturday game, or if he takes out his frustrations on you in or out of character, or if you even suspect that he's doing such, that you will NOT hesitate to read a prepared list of every last one of his countless crimes against RPGs out loud for that entire group to hear.
Was that all clear or do I need to paraphrase?

https://data.archive.moe/board/a/image/1336/95/1336959789061.gif

I was reading through the thread hoping to see you'd posted something to the effect; if you hadn't, I was.
You did not disappoint, although I was expecting to see the "Well there's your problem" meme.


As I said, I AM NOT going back to his game. Putting up with his abuse is one thing, but when he is flat out lying and cheating by telling me something is banned but then letting another play take it is crossing a line to far.

Good.
Don't go back, even if he does cry to your parents and get them to guilt-trip you into returning.


All I am doing now is trying to figure out how to break it to him without ruining the other game which I genuinely enjoy despite his occasionally jackanapes.

At this point, do you think he deserves a reason? Ghost it. If he asks, just kinda shrug noncommittally and make an "eh" noise.
More important is talking to the good DM and make sure he's tracking what's what and why's why. The abusive DM has no power except what you as a group let him have; get the group on your side.

[prufock]

No, no, no! Bad!

Don't pick a fight -- don't give him any opportunity to turn this against you.
I disagree... sort of. My sample answer was flippant, but there's nothing wrong with being honest about why you're not enjoying the game.

Part of the issue here seems to be that the OP is afraid of this guy; placating him by avoiding the issue is only perpetuating that fear. I'm a fan of tackling issues head-on.

[Nifft]

I disagree... sort of. My sample answer was flippant, but there's nothing wrong with being honest about why you're not enjoying the game.

Part of the issue here seems to be that the OP is afraid of this guy; placating him by avoiding the issue is only perpetuating that fear. I'm a fan of tackling issues head-on.

Nobody's placating.

What this guy is doing is leaving.

Engaging the abuser on the abuser's own terms is not leaving.

Don't engage. Leave. Depart. Exit. Remove yourself. Run away. Flee. Take thy face hence. Go.

[prufock]

Engaging the abuser on the abuser's own terms is not leaving.
Engage on your own terms. You still leave.


Run away. Flee.
Vamoose. Scram. Retreat.

Either way, he's out; the rest is a matter of style. As I said, I prefer the head-on-collision approach as opposed to the tail-between-your-legs approach. Either can work.

[Nifft]

Engage on your own terms. You still leave.

Vamoose. Scram. Retreat.

Either way, he's out; the rest is a matter of style. As I said, I prefer the head-on-collision approach as opposed to the tail-between-your-legs approach. Either can work.

Thing is, if this fellow could confront the abusive DM head-on, the situation wouldn't have gotten this far.

So, IMHO the smart thing to do is NOT try to get in any last-word middle-finger sniping.

Just get out. Based on what we know, that's going to be difficult enough.

DO NOT ENGAGE. Don't get the abusive DM any openings.

You have exactly one mission: getting yourself out.

[prufock]

Thing is, if this fellow could confront the abusive DM head-on, the situation wouldn't have gotten this far.
OP could have done it at any point; he chose not to. He doesn't need to offer any explanation at all, if he doesn't want to. But if he does, it doesn't need to be angry, hostile, or "sniping." But, OP, you are allowed to speak your mind if you want to, and you shouldn't be afraid of this guy or let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Ruethgar]

I would suggest you walk as the others have, but I personally would make an optimized commoner(without chicken infested) to spite him/her.

[Svata]

Engage on your own terms. You still leave.


Vamoose. Scram. Retreat.

Either way, he's out; the rest is a matter of style. As I said, I prefer the head-on-collision approach as opposed to the tail-between-your-legs approach. Either can work.

In the words of Dresden, meep-meep right the hell out of there.