PDA

View Full Version : Need a bit of help designing a character



Tyrael
2007-05-05, 05:36 PM
Ahoy, all. I've just been reading through Races of the Dragon fluff and decided that playing a Kobold might be an interesting challenge, especially with the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for them. I'm particularly interested in the Kobold Ditherbombs.

Anyway, in terms of flavor/fluff, what I'm trying to make is a Kobold (probably a Rogue, but doesn't have to be) who's essentially a demented little pyromaniac with his bombs. Beyond the race and weapon of choice, I'm pretty open to ideas. In terms of level, I'm not sure whether to bring him into a new 3rd-level campaign starting up, or create him as a possibility for our current 12th-level campaign, so building him up to 12th is probably a good idea.

So, have at it, ye rules-monkeys!:smallsmile:

goat
2007-05-05, 06:23 PM
I've never actually encountered or read up on ditherbombs, but everything I've ever heard complains about the cost.

Can they be crafted without any major problems?

Tyrael
2007-05-06, 01:47 AM
I don't know. What would the material components be? All it is physically described as is "spherical explosive devices" that deal acid damage.

Going off of: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm
In terms of costs, a weak Dbomb is 100gp, a strong Dbomb is 300gp, and a wyrm Dbomb is 1,000gp. So that's 1,000sp, 3,000sp, and 10,000sp, respectively.

Craft(Alchemy) DC 20 check.

Pay 1/3 price for raw materials, so that's
33.3sp (weak)
100sp (strong)
3,333.3sp (wyrm)

To craft, you apparently make a Craft check multiplied by the DC, so that's 1d20 x 20, and if that equals or exceeds the price in sp, the item is completed.

2x20=40, so the minimum roll to craft a weak Dbomb is 2.
5x20=100, so the minimum roll to craft a strong Dbomb is 5.
However, 166.65x20=3333, so even with a natural 20, a wyrm Dbomb can't be crafted...rather, it can't be crafted in a week. Hmph.


So to answer, weak and strong Dbombs can be crafted with no real problem, but wyrms are ridiculously hard.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-06, 02:03 AM
Uh, I think you have your numbers wrong.

Weak ditherbombs cost 1000sp, so it costs 333.3sp to craft them, or 33.3 gold.
Strong ones cost 3000sp, so it costs 1000sp to craft them, or 100 gold.
Wyrm ones cost 10000sp, so it costs 3333.3sp to craft them, or 333.3 gold.

Anyway, ditherbombs strike me as uselessly inaccurate; not only can't you tell when they'll explode (now, or three rounds later, after combat has ended) but the strongest ones can deal anywhere between 1 and 48 damage. I would just craft oil; assuming that the DC is 15, you could easily make 3 gallons of oil a day for under 8 silver pieces at first level.

LiteYear
2007-05-06, 02:49 AM
Here's how I understand the craft skill.

To craft a weak Dbomb, you'll need the materials (1000sp)/3, or 333 sp 3 cp, and a total of (1000 sp)/(DC 20), or 50, on your craft checks combined to complete the item. A check below the DC of 20 won't count towards your progress, and a check below 16 will force you to pay half the raw materials ((1000sp)/3)/2, or 166 sp 7 cp. So, to craft the item in one week, you need a craft check of 50, for 2 weeks, you need two successful checks with an average check of 25, and you'll complete with 3 successful checks (because three successful checks gives you a minimum total of 60).

If that's too slow, you can voluntarily increase the DC by 10, giving it a DC of 30. That means that your craft checks combined will need to total (1000sp)/(DC 30), or 34 (rounded up), but at that DC, a check below 26 will force you to pay 166 sp 7 cp. So, to speed-craft the item in one week, you'll need a check of 34, or two successful checks (because you'll have a minimum total of 60).

jlousivy
2007-05-06, 02:57 AM
rogue/master thrower.

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-06, 03:35 AM
I have to go with I.T. on this one. With a variable detonation time, those ditherbombs would be better suited for an encounter than a PC in most situations, with the possible exception of blowing up objects.

JellyPooga
2007-05-06, 07:39 AM
Heh heh heh...ditherbombs...

Yes, they're unreliable.
Yes, they have a tendency to blow you up if you're a little too...active
Yes, they're expensive...

...

...But by the gods they're fun!

I would second a Rogue/Master Thrower approach. Certain of the MTs abilities won't work, but being able to throw two at a time could be useful. You also might want to expand into other 'grenade-like' weapons for when you want a more reliable weapon - flasks of acid, alchemists fire, actual grenades (check the DM's Guide). Given that he's probably crafting his own Ditherbombs, he can also craft other alchemical items...give him a level of Sorcerer so he can make the "only craftable by a spellcaster" items and he can make smokesticks, tanglefoot bags and thunderstones too, which I think would probably fit the character mould.

I presume that he is going to be a crazy alchemist type...if so, consider using Wisdom as a dump stat (he won't be using it for any class abilities), but (even if he goes Sorcerer) max out Int if possible...play him as a very tactical character. At early levels, his alchemical items will be highly effective used directly against your enemies. As time goes by, they become less and less useful...as such, you'll be looking to use the same alchemical items to better effect than direct use (e.g. using a ditherbomb to collapse a tunnel on a foe).

If you do decide to take a level or two of Sorcerer, I'd advise taking 3. Combined with the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, you can then cast 2nd level spells.

If I were creating this character, this is the build I'd use:
Level 1: Kobold Rogue (1)- Point Blank Shot
Level 2: Dragonblood Sorcerer (1)
Level 3: Rogue (2)- Precise Shot (Rite of Draconic Passage)
Level 4: Kobold Rogue (3)
Level 5: Sorcerer (2)
Level 6: Sorcerer (3)- Weapon Focus (Grenade-Like Weapon [?])
Level 7: Rogue (4)
Level 8: Rogue (5)
Level 9: Master Thrower (1)- Draconic Reservoir (Greater Rite of Drac. Passage)
Level 10: Master Thrower (2)
Level 11: Master Thrower (3)
Level 12: Master Thrower (4) - Some Feat (Possibly Flick of the Wrist [Comp. Warrior])

Totals out at Rogue (5) / Sorcerer (3) / Master Thrower (4)

Or something along those lines...

JaronK
2007-05-06, 03:50 PM
I would do something like Sorcerer 5/Rogue 10/Master Thrower 5. Take the Greater Draconic Right of Passage to be able to cast like a 6th level sorcerer, so you can cast Explosive Runes. Take vials of alchemist's fire, wrap them in parchment that you've scribed Explosive Runes onto, and throw those for some serious damage that isn't too expensive. Of course, you can only make two or three of those a day, but they'd have some real kick, and you've got 5d6 sneak attack damage to add on to your regular bombs.

JaronK

jlousivy
2007-05-06, 06:53 PM
that's not a viable strategy... explosive runes need to be read (i could be wrong) and by throwing them with the alchemists fire, you'd burn up the paper

Tyrael
2007-05-06, 07:09 PM
Thanks, JellyPooga, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Yep, he's a "Mad Alchemist" dude. A bit loopy in the head, but he loves his explosions! KABOOM!

Ooh! *idea from Jaron* Can you sneak attack with grenades? That would be REALLY cool!

JellyPooga
2007-05-07, 04:42 AM
From 12th level, I'd advise taking that last level of Master Thrower, then taking a 4th level of Sorcerer, 'cos you get one of your spells as a spell-like ability through the Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution level.

From there you have a couple of options.
1) Go with what JaronK said and take a 5th level of Sorcerer and the rest Rogue. Nothing wrong with this build at all.
2) Take 5th level Sorcerer, then take the rest as Arcane Trickster (5 levels of). Not the most optimal build, but I think it's quite a fitting PrC for the character.
3) Find a different PrC. You'll probably want something that gives you at least 1 more level of spellcasting to get 3rd level spells (and upgrade your spell-like ability, from dragonblood sorcerer, to a 2nd level spell). I can't think of one off the top of my head that would be particularly suitable though.

Oh yeah, there was something else I forgot to mention...your SLA from your Rite of DP - make sure it's something that benefits from high caster level. Remember that its caster level is equal to your character level, so it will have a much higher CL than your Sorcerer spells. Also remember that it is going to be usable 3 times per day when you pick up the Draconic Reservoir feat, so you don't want to 'waste' castings. Here's a list of spells I wouldn't advise taking for this ability, that you might otherwise consider:

Mage Armour - o.k. at lower levels, this might be a good investment, but at higher levels, the extra castings granted by Draconic Reservoir will be wasted.
Power Word: Pain - This is always tempting. 3xday all but kill a creature with less than 50hp? yes please. Broken Spell IMO. However...its ability does not increase with caster level and it becomes increasingly less useful as time goes by. A no-no for this particular ability.
Magic Missile - yeah, this isn't a bad choice per se...it scales with level and is always going to be usefully castable 3xday...but...after 9th level, it stops scaling (max 5 missiles) and it's direct damage...you can do better than that.
Any save-or-suck/die spell - e.g. colour spray or sleep. I don't really have to say why do I? o.k. I will anyway. low levels: great, high levels: waste of space.

You can see where I'm going with this. What you want is a utility spell that scales well. My personal choice is Tenser's Floating Disk. An amazingly useful spell (especially for someone who might need to carry around an alchemy lab...) that scales with level (both duration and weight it can carry). By 20th level, you can have three of these things following you around, each carrying 2000lb of gear all day (20 hour duration). Alternatively, you can set up the Horseless Wagon using them (becomes viable from 6th level if you have the Draconic Reservoir feat at that point). Alternatively, Identify is also an option...though it doesn't scale at all, the fact that it's an SLA means that you don't have to use any material component...a significant saving at early levels and a convenience at later levels.

Anyway, I'm waffling now, so I'll shut up.

Tyrael
2007-05-08, 05:41 AM
No, no, don't shut up, keep going. Any other spells you'd recommend for the Rite of DP SLAs?

JellyPooga
2007-05-08, 07:07 AM
No, no, don't shut up, keep going. Any other spells you'd recommend for the Rite of DP SLAs?

Well, given that you are limited to one 1st level spell, there isn't a terribly large choice to be had.

Out of the PHB (and aside from the two I've already mentioned), I would only reccomend the following:

Shield - You can always use extra AC and the immunity to MM is handy. Duration is open-ended, but that's the only scaling that occurs as you increase in level.
Obscuring Mist - Can be useful to make a get-away, but isn't a terribly good spell. No real benefit to making it an SLA, but depending on what Draconic Heritage you have, could be a good RP choice.
Feather Fall - I don't really need to say why this is useful, but I've always felt it a bit of a waste to take it as your RoDP SLA. Nevertheless, it still remains a valid choice; it scales well with level and as an SLA you can cast it even when silenced.
Reduce Person - Another 'quick get-away' spell, except you'll need a tiny tunnel to make the best of it. Unfortunately doesn't work on you if you take the Dragonwrought feat though. Other than that, there are times that being Tiny and being treated as Diminutive could be very handy, though I doubt their frequency.

and that's it from the PHB. 6 spells on my recommended list. In addendum, out of all the splat books I have, I wouldn't reccomend any other spells either; they all tend to be damage dealing (wich I prefer to rule out) or don't sacle at all with level (which is the biggest advantage of this particular SLA, given that its caster level is based on character level rather than any spellcasting class levels you have).


Expanding on this, if you take the 4th level Dragonblood Sorcerer Racial Substitution level, you get the ability to convert one of your spells known into an SLA. Conversely to you RoDP SLA, this one is based solely on your Sorcerer level. This means that caster level for this SLA is going to be abyssmally low in comparison to your character level. On the flipside, this can be a spell of any level, one lower than your maximum spell level (i.e. if you can cast 3rd level spells, this SLA can be up to a 2nd level spell).

In your particular case, the highest level this SLA is going to be is 2nd, but I'll start with the 1st level choices:

Complete Adventurer Spells - There are several spells in Comp.Adv. at 1st level that have Swift casting time and 1 round duration, that all qualify for that same reason. They don't get any better or worse based on your level. Perfect. Being 1st level spells, this means that they aren't terribly good, but they are possibly the best you have available for this purpose. My reccomended; Critical Strike (+1d6 Sneak Attack, Keen effect and +4 to confirm crit), Guided Shot (Ignore distance penalties for ranged attack), Insightful Feint (+10 to next Feint attempt), Snipers Shot (No range limit on next Sneak Attack) and Distract Assailant (1 creature Flat-Footed).

Fist of Stone (Comp.Arc. or Spell Compendium) - Good strength bonus for 1 minute. No more, no less. Good for countering your racial Strength penalty.
Power Word: Pain (RotD) - Brokeness aside, this spell fits well into this catagory for all the reasons it didn't fit in the previous one: It doesn't get any better as your level increases.
Mage Armour - Given the low caster level, Mage Armour becomes a viable choice, but also because you can swap it out later for a better spell, when it becomes redundant. I'd probably still steer clear of it though (by that level you'll have better armour than this spell can conjure).

Given that your CL is 4, most of the damage dealing spells aren't even maxed out, which kind of rules them out, but having one as a backup might be useful, so Shocking Touch, Burning Hands or one of the Lesser Orb spells (depending on your Heritage) aren't to be completely ruled out.


On to level 2 spells:

Knock - Ever useful, leave the Rogue at home spell. Doesn't suffer from low caster level. 'nuff said.
Blindness/Deafess - Save-or-suck. Permanent duration. Need I say more?
Invisibility - The best low-level escape spell. As an SLA, this is the perfect tool for running away; no components means it still works in silence, entangled, wearing armour, etc.. Not amazingly useful for getting in, but those 4 minutes are more than enough time to put some distance between you and gribbly death.
Local Tremor (RotD) - I just love this spell. Doesn't suffer particularly from low level (maxes out at 5 tremores at level 5 anyway), good vs. spellcasters, useful vs. (more or less) anything else.
Fireburst (Comp.Arc.) - Again, hasn't maxed at 5d8, but is a useful defensive spell in a pinch. Good for RP-ing Heritage if Fire based (e.g. Red or Gold Heritage)

That's about your lot. At 3rd level, you could get Gaseous Form, an even better "Run-Away" spell, but that goes beyond the scope of this particular character. Hope I've helped.

Oh, one other thing...get your self a pair of Ring Gates. Consider the possibilities of them in conjunction with Ditherbombs and other alchemical grenades...

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-09, 12:00 AM
Two things: first off, be wary of encumbrance; if you use STR as a dump stat, you'll end up with a carrying capacity of 9.75 lbs; that's barely enough for a Haversack, two ditherbombs, and a single magic item of your choice.

Also, I reiterate the usefulness of oil. At first level, with the masterwork alchemist's kit you'll be buying anyway, you can make 168 flasks of oil in a single week (still a fraction of the time it takes to make one weak ditherbomb). It would cost you 5.6 gold. (Well, unless the DC for oil is 10, in which case you can only make 112 flasks for 3.73 gold.)

TheOOB
2007-05-09, 12:18 AM
Last I checked oil is a mudane item and not alchemical. I can't recall there being any craft skill associated with it.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-09, 12:25 AM
...if it couldn't be made by Craft, how could it exist at all? There's got to be a Craft skill associated with it, and since Acid and Alchemist's Fire are both made via (Alchemy) I figured that was the most logical place for it.

jlousivy
2007-05-09, 01:04 AM
oil is a natural resource.... unless there's also a craft check for dirt :-)

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-09, 01:25 AM
Well you can make wood appear out of thin air at will as a free action so..

Maybe there is a dude in the middle of the planet that just crafts dirt and oil all day.

Tyrael
2007-05-09, 03:31 AM
Hmmm, good point on the oil, but with that he'd perhaps be not so much a bomber kobold as a Molotov Kobold. :P

Tippy, what's this wood-creating-at-will-free-action nonsense you speak of? It hurts my brain....

In terms of stats, I'm not sure how exactly to build it. On one hand, my DM's thinking of making it lower-powered and doing the standard DMG 25-pt build. On the other hand, he might allow me to create this guy with the same point built as my other chars, where you total up the scores and it can equal up to 90.

What do you guys think of these builds(post-racial-mods, without level upgrades)?

25-pt:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 14

80-pt:

STR 12
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 16

Btw, any suggestions for a name for him? I was thinking Kantrip, but it doesn't seem Koboldy enough. Something simple and almost a kid name, like Deekin or Meepo.

Edit: Hang on, I just looked again at Pooga's advancement thing: There's no such thing as Kobold Rogue 4. There's 1, 3, and 8, but no 4.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-09, 05:07 AM
He's referring to the quarterstaff crafting snafu. Quarterstaffs have no GP cost on the equipment list (well, they have -), so by the literal reading of the rules, they cost 0 GP worth of materials (0 SP/3=0 SP), and take no time to make (0 SP/1000=0 days), with a DC0 Craft check. Thus, anyone can, technically, as a free action, create a quarterstaff from nothing.

JellyPooga
2007-05-09, 07:11 AM
Edit: Hang on, I just looked again at Pooga's advancement thing: There's no such thing as Kobold Rogue 4. There's 1, 3, and 8, but no 4.

Uh...that's Character Level 4, Rogue Class Level 3 (there's a level of Sorcerer in there too).:smallwink: I'll edit the post for clarity if you want.

JaronK
2007-05-10, 11:08 AM
that's not a viable strategy... explosive runes need to be read (i could be wrong) and by throwing them with the alchemists fire, you'd burn up the paper

Reading is only one method. Any attempted erasure also triggers them, and burning the paper they're on should count as an erasure.

So yeah, alchamist's fire with explosive runes works great.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-05-10, 11:12 AM
Thanks, JellyPooga, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Yep, he's a "Mad Alchemist" dude. A bit loopy in the head, but he loves his explosions! KABOOM!

Ooh! *idea from Jaron* Can you sneak attack with grenades? That would be REALLY cool!

Yes, they are touch attacks too, so you can bypass armour while you're at it, and since they don't allow a save if you're close enough to read them, you should be looking at 6d6 force damage with no save before you apply the sneak attack... in fact, feel free to write multiple runes per piece of paper for extra fun. Unfortunately, you can't cast too many of these things per day, but an Eternal Wand of Explosive Runes would really help...

In fact, if you want, you could drop sorcerer entirely and just invest in a few such wands. The save DC won't be very high, so most people other than the primary target will be able to reflex save for half the force damage, but that could be advantageous to you... as a rogue, you have evasion and a good reflex save anyway, so you can fire these things at point blank without too much worry. For that build, try something like

Rogue 13/Master Thrower 5/Assassin 1/Spellthief 1

if your DM uses fractional BAB or

Rogue 15/Master Thrower 5

if not.

JaronK

Quietus
2007-05-10, 11:41 AM
No, no, don't shut up, keep going. Any other spells you'd recommend for the Rite of DP SLAs?

Caster level = character level, right?

Make it Ray of Enfeeblement. No save, so you won't have to worry about any of that bullox, and I LOVE it because it's so easy to drop someone's strength score so low that they can't carry the gear they're wearing any more without encumbrance. If they're weighed down, they can't chase after you very well, now can they?

You'd be amazed how close to medium load most characters are.

Jayabalard
2007-05-10, 01:03 PM
Reading is only one method. Any attempted erasure also triggers them, and burning the paper they're on should count as an erasure.

So yeah, alchamist's fire with explosive runes works great.

JaronK

that doesn't seem to be the case as I read it: "Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion."

burning up is not a dispell or erase spell...

JaronK
2007-05-10, 03:02 PM
Honestly, any DM that lets you destroy magic traps by just destroying the material they're on is asking for trouble, as you can very easily abuse that in future. Pretty much any DM is going to rule that blowing up a magic trap counts as a failed attempt to erase... only the actual erase or dispell spells actually have a chance of not triggering the runes. Anything else should blow them up.

JaronK

Tyrael
2007-05-10, 03:08 PM
Eternal Wand of Explosive Runes

What would the cost be for that? And where did you find the Eternal modifier? Last I checked (DMG 245), wands only have 50 charges. Also, are you POSITIVE that it can be used offensively?

The runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage.
According to SRD, the ONLY way to set off explosive runes is by reading them, and I don't think that an enemy will be reading a note you throw at him before a jar of flame explodes in his face.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 03:31 PM
Explosive Runes make no provisions for offensive or defensive use. And no, they can be destroyed by an unsuccessful Dispel or Erase. And I mirror JaronK's statement about physical destruction triggering the spell.

JaronK
2007-05-10, 03:42 PM
What would the cost be for that? And where did you find the Eternal modifier? Last I checked (DMG 245), wands only have 50 charges.

Eternal Wands are found in the Eberron Campaign Setting, and cost roughly 10kgp for a 3rd level spell. They can be used 2/day, but have no charges to deal with.


Also, are you POSITIVE that it can be used offensively?

According to SRD, the ONLY way to set off explosive runes is by reading them, and I don't think that an enemy will be reading a note you throw at him before a jar of flame explodes in his face.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, some disagree. With that said, Explosive Runes are a magical trap. The spell lists the two ways to disarm them (dispel, erase spells), with the warning that failing with these spells blows up the runes. It never says what happens if you try less effective means of disarming, but the very strong implication is that attempting to disarm them via any other method causes them to explode.

And if you can disarm any magic trap (such as symbols or explosive runes) just by fireballing them, then that's a rather silly abuse.

JaronK