[3.5] Wild Shape questions

[Ced]

Hello,

I found this very usefull post which clarifies a lot of the questions I had about Wild Shape: here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49833/when-wild-shaping-does-your-hd-change-to-match-the-creature-forms-hd) (this first answer to the question describes everything which is needed).

So, from what I understood, you keep your own feats and do not gain the creature stats. This means for instance that you will loose the the "Improved Natural Attack" feat or the "Weapon Finesse" feat from the creature. For instance, the "Fleshraker Dinosaur" has the "Improved Natural Attack (Claw)" and does 1d6 damage with its claws. When wildshapping in such a creature, you'll only inflict 1d4 damage since you loose the feat.

I am right? I think this is correct but I just wanted a confirmation that this is correct.

Thanks!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Fleshraker dinosaur has a +3 BAB, and Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) has a prerequisite of +4 BAB.

There was a similar situation in the core Monster Manual with Weapon Finesse appearing on creatures with only one racial HD and a +0 BAB, here's what the errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) has to say about it:

Weapon Finesse Feat
Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base
attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not
require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see
page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon
Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat (see
the table below).

They say to make the feat it doesn't meet the BAB prerequisites for a racial bonus feat, and give them an appropriate +2/+2 skill feat to fill their extra feat slot.

Therefore, the same can be applied to any creature that doesn't meet the prerequisites for one or more of its printed feats, so Improved Natural Attack should instead be a racial bonus feat for the Fleshraker dinosaur.

When assuming a creature's form with Alter Self or the Polymorph line of spells, you get the form's skill bonuses and racial bonus feats. However, Wild Shape was changed in the errata to emulate Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm), which is a bit more ambiguous:

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

You definitely keep your own feats, but it doesn't exactly say that you don't get the assumed form's racial bonus feats. Since you get the form's natural weapons, it would make sense to get a claw attack identical to what's printed for it. I would say that you would gain the benefits of the Fleshraker's Improved Natural Attack feat, only because it must be a racial bonus feat.

[eggynack]

I don't really see why you'd gain racial bonus feats. Maybe if you use enhance wild shape, under the notion that they're extraordinary special qualities, but it makes little sense to assume that something not explicitly granted by an ability would be handed over.

[Ced]

Thanks for the answers!

I also don't really see why you would gain the racial feats. Is there a rule about that somewhere?

[eggynack]

I also don't really see why you would gain the racial feats. Is there a rule about that somewhere?
I'm not aware of one, no. As I said, best I can think of is enhance wild shape, which grants extraordinary special qualities, because racial bonus feats may fall into that category.

[bekeleven]

I'm not aware of one, no. As I said, best I can think of is enhance wild shape, which grants extraordinary special qualities, because racial bonus feats may fall into that category.

The 7th level of master of many forms also grants Ex Sq.

Feats are extraordinary unless specified otherwise (See: exalted) and they're special qualities... Although I can't recall a cite on that.

[eggynack]

The 7th level of master of many forms also grants Ex Sq.

Sure. Also exalted wild shape, if you want to go less distant from the druid in picking up those abilities in an always on fashion.

[bekeleven]

Sure. Also exalted wild shape, if you want to go less distant from the druid in picking up those abilities in an always on fashion.
I think more than one wild shape feat grants them for various subsets, no?

[Larrx]

I think more than one wild shape feat grants them for various subsets, no?

Maybe? But exalted explicitly grants them for all your old animal forms as well as the new exalted specific ones. I think that's what Eggy was getting at.

[eggynack]

Maybe? But exalted explicitly grants them for all your old animal forms as well as the new exalted specific ones. I think that's what Eggy was getting at.
That I was. On the broader point though, I think that dragon is one of the only other pre-epic wild shape feats that grants Ex special qualities for its forms. The others I can think of are aberration, frozen, vermin, and if you're including ACF's, humanoid, and none of those do this. Standard elemental wild shape grants them as well, of course.