The Dragon Shaman Blues

[Takamari]

Alright Friends and fellow gamers, I have a conundrum. I would like some feedback on my changes to the Dragon Shaman base class. I have a player that has her heart set on playing a dragon shaman, and I admit, that I LOVE the idea of the class. However, when I look at it, the fighter seems like a choice. I have spoken with several other friends and we all agree that it could use some love. Just for posterity, we fixed the fighter too, as in we threw it out and introduced the ToB!

Anyway, here are the changes.

(4+int modx4 at first) 4+int mod each levels. Class skills are now Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge: Arcana (with respect to draconic things), Knowledge: Nature, Search, Spot, Swim, (skills granted by Draconic Totem)

Dragon Shamans are now proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They still retain only light and medium armor proficiency.

The Breath Weapon's damage is increased to d10s, though I think that is too much, so most likely will end up at d8s. 10d6 at twentieth level is LAME. A wizard gets that at 10th and in a bigger area.

Every 5 levels, the dragon shaman gains a Metabreath feat, similar to a wizard gaining metamagic. They ignore the constitution requirement, but must meet any others.

Draconic Wings are reduced to 11th level. Again, a wizard or cleric is doing so much more by that time.

At 19 level, they gain the ability to use a true dragons breath weapon, of the oldest age catagory, 1/day. To specify, a red dragon Dragon Shaman can 1/day breath a 70ft cone of fire dealing 24d10, reflex save DC (Hit dice+2xcon modifier) Useable 2/day at 20th.

I also added the homebrewed feat: Dragon Hearted. It allows Dragon Shaman or dragon fire adepts, or anything with the ability to project draconic auras, treat themselves 4 levels higher for the purposes of Breath Weapon damage and size, and for the Bonus to Aura.

My problem is I don't know what requirements to give it.

Look, I want honest opinions on how to help this and about my revisions. I dont' want to hear how pointless or stupid it is to try to fix this class. She has her heart set on this character and we are all here to have FUN. Please, if you think of something better or that something I have "fixed" makes it too good, please let me know. thanks

[Takamari]

Nothing? Nothing at all? I actually thought the idea for the class would be well liked, the origional idea, not mine. Seems like nobody likes this class. I've noticed the same about some of the other new classes: Samurai (but thats NO supprise), Beguiler, Swashbuckler (except for a dip).

[The_Snark]

Have you considered just using the Dragonfire Adept class? I haven't tried it out, but I gather it's something like the warlock, mechanics-wise, except a bit better constructed and with some neat options. Flavor-wise, it's pretty much like the dragon shaman. Dragon Magic has rules and (possibly) feats for draconic auras, too, so you might even be able to keep that.

If your player likes this class specifically, this looks like a decent way to fix it, but be careful with that high-level breath weapon. 24d10 averages at 132 damage, in an area, which is quite a lot. I suppose it's not too much better than the highest-level Tome of Battle stuff, though, especially since most dragon shamans will actually be dealing less. The feat looks okay, too; just give it a requirement of 4 or 5 HD and it should be fine.

[Takamari]

I have looked at the dragonfire adept. Eh, it is so so. I don't really like the flavor and the invocations don't look great.

As for the the high-level breath weapon, I figured that even with applying maximize breath to it, IF I would allow that, it is 240 X damage. At 19th level, a Rogue or any other decent reflex saving class can make the save. A wizard or cleric has resistance or immunity up. A fighter is boned, but the fighter is out anyway.

[The_Snark]

The save as written is pretty high, though. 10+HD+2xCon modifier? Dragon shamans probably want decent Con, let's assume 16 with an enhancing item... that comes out to DC 46? There's not a whole lot of rogues who are going to make that. Maybe reduce it to the standard 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier, or 2xCon modifier?

I suppose the dragon shaman's basic problem, though, is that it tries to do too many things—it tries to be a melee character, which it's not too good at because of inferior BAB (and you suffer from a lack of feats, also). It tries to be a healer, which it's actually fairly good at. The breath weapon is nice, especially with metabreath feats and that damage bonus, but it's only useable once every 1d4 rounds. The auras can be useful, but the bonuses are too low to help in combat. It suffers from trying to do too much; more of a concept flaw than design, I think. Makes it tricky to fix. This is probably a good start, though.

Possibly feats that allow you to do different things with your breath weapon might help? I know Races of the Dragon has some good ones, letting you breathe a wall of fire/lightning/whatever or entangling with a breath weapon. Letting those be taken as bonus feats is a good start, and maybe designing a few more? There was a feat somewhere, possibly Savage Species, which decreased the recharge time on your breath weapon, too, which would be handy. A feat that lets you breathe and make a melee attack as a full-round action might be good too, probably with limitations or high prerequisites.

[Bardbarian]

--->I find the most compelling part of the class the auras, but you've concentrated much of the improvements on the breath portion of the class.

I disagree with adding the martial weapons, as it takes away from the tribal feel of the class. Perhaps adding a select few (see Bard, Rogue) would be a better option. Are there base classes out there which grant full martial proficiency that don't have full BAB progression?

Adding Meta-aura choices in addition to your Metabreath might allow a bit of diversity in character concept. Maybe base aura radius off of auras known, allow multiple auras on after a certain level? Extra Healing as a feat, as Extra Turning or Extra Music?

You're turning the Dragon Shaman into a one-trick pony on steroids with your changes. I think the one-trick nature is why the class is not as popular as it stands. YMMV

[ImperiousLeader]

Before I critique, I want to know, what role do your PC want her Dragon Shaman to perform? Combat, Party Support, Face? The extra skill points don't really do much for the DS, it's not a skill monkey class. It doesn't have Diplomacy, or Spot/Listen, the added skills and skill points seem rather irrelevant.

You stated that you like the flavour of the Dragon Shaman, could you be more specific? Is it the worship of dragons, or seeking to emulate a dragon?

The main suggestion I have, is that Dragon Shaman should get Dragontouched as a first level bonus feat like the Dragonfire Adept. That'll give them the dragonblood subtype which would allow them to get Metabreath feats, or breath feats from "Races of the Dragon". Entangling Exhalation FTW.

[Takamari]

The player is, sadly, going to be the party beef. Not her choice, but thats just how it panned out. I'm running the DMPC cleric, we have an enchanter, an artificer, a swashbuckler/bard, and a marshal. For her, I think it is the emulation of Dragons.

I agree that my changes are a trick pony, but I'm not sure how to fix that. I could see bumping the aura to a +1 at every other level up to a max of +10. But then again, some of the abilities of the auras is potent: Energy Shield: 20 points of elemental damage/non ranged melee attack with no save. Not Broken, just buff.

The Dragon Blooded feat is a good idea, I hadn't thought of that. I see a homebrew feat that allows them to do more healing with their touch of vitality as well. Bard, I believe you are correct about the reduced BAB classes not having full martial proficiency.

oh, the save for the upper level breath weapon was just the Shamans level plus twice his/her con modifier. 10+1/2 level+2xcon.

So what could I do to make the auras better? The ideas, so far, are:

Aura Bonus increases every other level (max of +10)
Aura Bonus increases every third level (max of +7 at 18th)
Add Feat: Extend Aura Radius (Doubles Radius)
Make MetaAura Feats (empower???)
Give them the Dual Draconic Aura Feat for free.

I'm not trying to make an uber class. I'm just looking for a good, solid class that is on par with say, the ToB, maybe a little below.

[ImperiousLeader]

The Dragon Blooded feat is a good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

It's necessary for the breath weapon feats in Races of the Dragon, and I really like Entangling Exhalation. It's a solid feat. I dislike upping the damage of the DS's breath weapon (though an increase to D8s is probably acceptable), but I do like adding conditions, making it more into a close range battlefield control device.

One other idea: Touch of Vitality. Leave as is, but add this additional ability: At Level 15, a Dragon Shaman may use Touch of Vitality upon herself as a swift action instead of a standard action.

[PinkysBrain]

Dragon shaman is a complete failure, the only way to fix it is a complete make over ... I don't think this quite qualifies. Even pushing up the damage to 1d6 per level would still make it look bleak compared to the Dragonfire Adept. The metabreath feats aren't useable with X/day, so you don't have to worry about a maximized 24d10. I don't quite see the reason for doing the save in such a strange way though.

Personally I'd leave the damage of his breath weapon alone and make it's use a swift action. Also as long as it hasn't been used as a breath weapon (or after 1d4 rounds) I'd allow as a swift action the damage to be channeled through his unarmed strikes (or Ki strike weapons and even multiple times when you make more than 1 attack). This changes the way the class can be played, making it look a lot less like a poor mans Dragonfire Adept.

It's supposed to be a melee combatant according to the description, but it lacks any class abilities to make it effective in melee combat. Average BAB and no class abilities to increase damage don't make it a good idea to be in melee at all. The risk/benefit factor just isn't there ... if you are in melee you have to be able to do a lot of damage, otherwise use a ranged weapon instead.

PS. this is slightly overpowered (same damage as a rogue, but without a lot of the limitations of sneak attack). I'd rather err on the side of overpowered than underpowered though.

[Person_Man]

The fixed Dragon Shaman is called the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2). Powerful all day every round breath weapon, useful all day Invocations (flight, fear, dispel, Skill buffs, See Invisible, etc), and decent Skills that include UMD, social, and scholar options. You also get d8 hit points, 2 good saves, and there's no reason you can't wear heavy armor (You never make an attack role or use the acrobatic Skills, so who cares about penalties to them?)

Now you may say, "WAIT! I want my precious auras!" Bad news. Whether you're Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, or similar PrC, you have a fundamental math problem. Your buffs scale very poorly. So no matter how well you optimize them, you'll barely be useful at mid levels compared to any full caster. And if you change the math so that it does scale as well as full casters, then you've broken the class, because now you have all day buffs equivalent to Persistent+Divine Metamagic cheese that people constantly complain about.

The Dragon Shaman is like the Healer or the Samurai. A good idea that was poorly executed. Playable at low levels, but useless past that point.

[amatulic]

The fixed Dragon Shaman is called the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2).
I disagree that this "fixes" the Dragon Shaman. I also disagree with the OPs proposal for what I consider unreasonable buffs to the class that concentrate only on breath weapons.

The free metabreath feats every 5 levels is a good idea, but other than that I'd leave the breath weapon feature alone. Proposed class skills are OK but I'd add Diplomacy, as that's a standard draconic skill for all dragon races. I'd also allow the Double Draconic Aura feat to taken in place of one of the free metabreath feats at level 10. That's IT. No other changes needed.

The Dragon Shaman isn't meant to be a tank. It's an excellent 5th or 6th addition to a party. In a large party, the aura buffs make a significant impact. And the clerics appreciate not having to use up their high-level healing spells.


Now you may say, "WAIT! I want my precious auras!" Bad news. Whether you're Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, or similar PrC, you have a fundamental math problem. Your buffs scale very poorly. No, they don't, at least in my experience, especially with a large party. You've clearly never played a properly-built bard.

Note that a Dragonborn human Marshal (no multiclassing) is nearly equivalent in flavor and function as a straight human Dragon Shaman. The Dragonborn Marshal gets the breath weapon sooner (dealing nearly the same damage as Dragon Shaman all the way to level 20), gets a more flexible breath weapon (multiple damage types), can project 2 auras at twice the radius of the Shaman's aura, has better skill points and more class skills, but lacks the Shaman's healing capabilities. All those benefits in place of some healing seems like a good trade-off for a combat-support party-buffing character if you already have healers in the party.
-A

[PlatinumJester]

Dragon Fire Adept is kinda crap. I prefer your fixed dragon shaman.
However I lay a dragon shaman and he is one of the parties main tanks. In fact I may be the main one.

[Pirate_King]

I kind of like dragon fire adept, it's a reasonable balance between the dragon shaman and the dragon disciple prestige class. It always bugged me that there was almost no point in taking dragon disciple if you could start as a dragon shaman.

[Takamari]

Well, I've run two games with my modified dragon shaman character. She is ok. Since we don't have a fighter, she covers the role rather well. Sword and board is not the best set up for damage, but her 26 AC at 8th level is nothing to scoff at: +1 elven chain (+6), +1 mithral shield(+3), +4 dex, +2 natural armor(+1 for draconic template, +1 shaman), +1 luck(luck of heroes feat).

She is doing 1d8+7 damage and has two attacks at +14/+9, three since the cleric can caste haste, (GO TIME/TRAVEL domain clerics) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. The damage goes up with her damage aura to 1d8+9, so an average of 13ish damage per hit. That isn't the uber two fister, but it is respectable damage for a sword/shield character. Her next enhancement will most likely be concussive giving her an additional +5 damage, or an elemental damage bonus.

While I am aware that the consensus is that dealing more damage to kill "it" faster is better than low damage with high AC, I think so far, everything is panning out. I'm having more difficulties with a certain gun toating artificer that tries to "bring it in alive". YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!

[PerasThorngage]

That druid had it coming