Advice for the Marksman class? (a Marksman's guide to archery?)

[Unbodied]

So, I've wanted to play as a Marksman for a while. Both archery in general and that class in particular are cool. I'm not sure when I'll be able to play the character since I have a lot of others lined up but I got a solid concept in mind recently so I want to stat it up so that I can come back to it later. Sadly the Marksman class is one of the many classes in Pathfinder which doesn't have its own guide. So I was thinking that in addition to asking for advice on my own build I could also try to set up a guide for the class based on what advice, opinions and discussions in this thread.

For my own Marksman I'm planning to go with a blind archer theme, so I'm thinking of taking the Blindness condition as a (Extra) Major Drawback and then getting Synesthete via research so that the character can still fight. I'm going with Elan as a race and I'm going to prioritize Dexterity and Wisdom as my main stats, but I'm not sure what to do with the rest of them or which Style I want to use. So, some help? :smalleek:

[Unbodied]

So starting up the tentative guide here,

I'm guessing stat distribution should look something like this?
DEX>WIS>INT?>CON?>STR?>CHA

Unless you're a spear thrower, in that case something more like this?

STR>WIS>DEX>INT?>CON?>CHA

[Tulya]

If you're starting from first level, gaining off-list powers via research or Psychic Chirurgery would be prohibitively expensive under wealth-by-level guidelines.
The Unlocked Talent feat received errata to allow the Naturally Psionic racial trait to satisfy its prerequisites, so you could opt to take it for Synesthete. When you can afford the power by other means, you can pay for a manifestation of Psychic Reformation and reroll the feat.

As an Elan Marksman with 14 Wisdom, Unlocked Talent, and the +1 pp/level favored class bonus, you'll have 7 pp at the first level. This is enough to manifest it at the start of every encounter, and to also pay for a few Inevitable Strikes.
If you also burn a trait on Psigifted, you can maintain Synesthete for up to 5 hours per day at 2nd level, nearly 9 hours at 3rd level.

While these investments are increasingly unnecessary as you level, that just means more pp to burn on other effects. The Marksman has no shortage of pp outlets.

[Unbodied]

If you're starting from first level, gaining off-list powers via research or Psychic Chirurgery would be prohibitively expensive under wealth-by-level guidelines.
The Unlocked Talent feat received errata to allow the Naturally Psionic racial trait to satisfy its prerequisites, so you could opt to take it for Synesthete. When you can afford the power by other means, you can pay for a manifestation of Psychic Reformation and reroll the feat.

As an Elan Marksman with 14 Wisdom, Unlocked Talent, and the +1 pp/level favored class bonus, you'll have 7 pp at the first level. This is enough to manifest it at the start of every encounter, and to also pay for a few Inevitable Strikes.
If you also burn a trait on Psigifted, you can maintain Synesthete for up to 5 hours per day at 2nd level, nearly 9 hours at 3rd level.

While these investments are increasingly unnecessary as you level, that just means more pp to burn on other effects. The Marksman has no shortage of pp outlets.Bugger. I had forgotten that Expanded Knowledge has a level 3 prequisite. The problem with Unlocked Talent is that it requires Charisma, only 11 so its not a huge hurdle but I was thinking of dumping Charisma slightly to get more of other stuff.

Is the Marksman any good at Charisma skills? I guess it might be a good idea to have it for Use Magic Device if nothing else.

What are your suggestions for Attribute Scores? I was thinking of getting 16 Dexterity, possibly 12 Strength for the Composite Bow bonus (and because realistically speaking you need to be pretty strong to be an archer), 10 Intelligence because I don't see a strong need for it but don't want to lose skill points (plus I don't want the character to be stupid), 8 Constitution because I'm planning to stay away from danger rather than being able to take hits and I guess I might as well take 12 Charisma since I can't afford anything else without dumping Constitution even more.

So

Str 12, Dex 16(+2=18), Con 7, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.

[StygianRose]

If I may interject-

If you read unlocked talent, you might note

If you have manifester levels from a psionic class, you may instead use the manifester level from that class when manifesting the power gained from this feat, as well as the appropriate key ability modifier.

You only need 11 charisma if you don't have levels in a psionic class.

[Unbodied]

Also is it just me or does Unlocked Talent give you a Power that doesn't count against your maximum number of powers known?

[Username.]

Also is it just me or does Unlocked Talent give you a Power that doesn't count against your maximum number of powers known?

That's the point.

Also:




High Psionics Games
In campaigns where psionics is more common-place, such as the Third Dawn Campaign Setting, it is recommended to remove the prerequisite of Wild Talent from Unlocked Talent and substitute the Unlocked Talent feat for Wild Talent to represent how the ability to manifest powers is common within the world.

This is an excellent way to get must-have powers, such as Claws of the Beast for a melee-ist or Astral Construct for anyone, effectively onto your power list for your main manifesting class.

If you are not taking Astral Construct, you need to be able to convincingly articulate to yourself why.

[Unbodied]

That's the point.

Also:



This is an excellent way to get must-have powers, such as Claws of the Beast for a melee-ist or Astral Construct for anyone, effectively onto your power list for your main manifesting class.

If you are not taking Astral Construct, you need to be able to convincingly articulate to yourself why.
I can get that via Mind Stone + Research I guess. Speaking of which do I need to get Cracked Orange Prisms or take the Access Psionic Talent feat to actually get Talents as a Marksman? I was stoked about the idea of getting Trick Shot but looking closer it doesn't say anything about actually getting Talents even though the Marksman has a list for them. :s

On a different note do you have any suggestions for Traits that I should pick as a Marksman? I get 4 thanks to the Blinded Drawback.


The Unlocked Talent feat received errata to allow the Naturally Psionic racial trait to satisfy its prerequisites, so you could opt to take it for Synesthete. When you can afford the power by other means, you can pay for a manifestation of Psychic Reformation and reroll the feat.
Doesn't Psychic Reformation only work on decisions you made when leveling up though? I don't think you can use it to replace feats you took at level 1.

Kind of a moot point admitedly since the GM was sceptical of getting both a bonus feat and bonus traits and only allowed it because Unlocked Talent basically ended up being a feat tax required to make the character function.

[Username.]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents

Talent acquisition is a table decision:

Talents are gained when you take levels in certain classes

and/or

5 replace a learned power (never do this)

and/or

are linked to 1st level powers. This last option is the only sane one for a table. Keep in mind that many psionic classes don't have the appropriate number of talents-to-learn even listed.

Talent linkage is extremely important because it means that getting access to powers from mind stones can, by extention, get you the associated talent.

[Psyren]

Doesn't Psychic Reformation only work on decisions you made when leveling up though? I don't think you can use it to replace feats you took at level 1.


You can just use ordinary PF Retraining for that.

[Unbodied]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents

Talent acquisition is a table decision:

Talents are gained when you take levels in certain classes

and/or

5 replace a learned power (never do this)

and/or

are linked to 1st level powers. This last option is the only sane one for a table. Keep in mind that many psionic classes don't have the appropriate number of talents-to-learn even listed.

Talent linkage is extremely important because it means that getting access to powers from mind stones can, by extention, get you the associated talent.
I don't think that's how it works in Ultimate Psionics?

[Unbodied]

Some question on Traits

1.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Poisonous%20Slayer

Does Poisonous Slayer seem like a good trait? If I put 1 rank in Craft Alchemy it should be safe and cheap to put some simple poison on all my arrows right? Is there a poison enchantment I can put on my bow?

2.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/deadeye-bowman

Is there a point in getting the Deadeye Bowman Trait? It seems pretty situational and as a Marksman don't I get a bunch of stuff to ignore cover anyway?


If I may interject-

If you read unlocked talent, you might note

If you have manifester levels from a psionic class, you may instead use the manifester level from that class when manifesting the power gained from this feat, as well as the appropriate key ability modifier.

You only need 11 charisma if you don't have levels in a psionic class.Weird I could have sworn I responded to this. Thanks for the tip. Does this seem like a decent distribution of my attributes?

Str 12, Dex 16 ( + 2 = 18 ), Con 8, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8

I noticed that I have a lot of good class skills like Acrobatics, Autohypnosis, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth and Use Magic Device plus some others that would be neat to have like Survival, Escape Artist, Craft and Perform (I think that's needed for a feat) but i only get 4 ranks per level so buffing Int seemed like a good idea.

I'm also thinking of getting the Finding Your Kin trait if I can so that the low Con hurts less and to get more skills.


You can just use ordinary PF Retraining for that.
Right. I had forgotten about that. Do you know anything about the Talent stuff below?



http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents

Talent acquisition is a table decision:

Talents are gained when you take levels in certain classes

and/or

5 replace a learned power (never do this)

and/or

are linked to 1st level powers. This last option is the only sane one for a table. Keep in mind that many psionic classes don't have the appropriate number of talents-to-learn even listed.

Talent linkage is extremely important because it means that getting access to powers from mind stones can, by extention, get you the associated talent.
I checked now and there's nothing about that in the Talent section of Ultimate Psionics, there classes just get a certain amount of Talents. Sometimes you choose which other times its determined by the class/archetype.

It doesn't look like the Marksman gets Talents normally there. It might be a mistake I guess. The Wilder gets 1 Talent and they get roughly the same amount of powers known so maybe use the same number for Marksmen? Still if a party member gets Craft Wondrous Item its only 500 gp for a Cracked Orange Prism and Trick Shot is the only Talent I really need.

[Psyren]

Marksmen have a talents list (pg. 147) but they don't have the talents ability, so you would have to use your powers known to pick some up. It's likely a case of bad editing - 4th-level manifesters like the Marksman and Gifted Blade don't normally get talents, just like 4th-level casters like the Paladin, Ranger and Bloodrager don't get orisons or cantrips.

[Username.]

I checked now and there's nothing about that in the Talent section of Ultimate Psionics, there classes just get a certain amount of Talents. Sometimes you choose which other times its determined by the class/archetype.

It doesn't look like the Marksman gets Talents normally there. It might be a mistake I guess. The Wilder gets 1 Talent and they get roughly the same amount of powers known so maybe use the same number for Marksmen? Still if a party member gets Craft Wondrous Item its only 500 gp for a Cracked Orange Prism and Trick Shot is the only Talent I really need.

It's not in Ultimate Psionics. The Talent rules I quoted -- from the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents), mind -- were taken from Psionics Expanded, p. 123.

As mentioned, not all classes get talents. This is because talents weren't an original part of psionic rules. Dreamscarred introduced them, a bit off-handedly, when printing Ultimate Psionics. (Which was clearly not Ultimate.) Dreamscarred changed the rules, advancing talents upwards in utility. Thus, old classes have to be "retconned" to handle the new talent access. This is why the 1:1 Talent infusion rule is best: you can't tell if Dreamscarred intended to grant Marksmen with Talents or not. The best idea is to give all non-psions 1 or 2 talents -- probably 2 -- and then use the 1:1 Talent rule.

[Psyren]

It's not in Ultimate Psionics. The Talent rules I quoted -- from the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents), mind -- were taken from Psionics Expanded, p. 123.

As mentioned, not all classes get talents. This is because talents weren't an original part of psionic rules. Dreamscarred introduced them, a bit off-handedly, when printing Ultimate Psionics. (Which was clearly not Ultimate.) Dreamscarred changed the rules, advancing talents upwards in utility. Thus, old classes have to be "retconned" to handle the new talent access. This is why the 1:1 Talent infusion rule is best: you can't tell if Dreamscarred intended to grant Marksmen with Talents or not. The best idea is to give all non-psions 1 or 2 talents -- probably 2 -- and then use the 1:1 Talent rule.

Wrong way around. Psionics Expanded came first, then Ultimate Psionics came after and superseded it. (In other words, it is "Ultimate.") The UPsi rules are the correct ones. They just happen to not have been fully uploaded to the PFSRD.

For Marksman, this means that as written they can pick up 0-level powers, but do not get any for free, so you're generally better off not taking any.

[Unbodied]

It's not in Ultimate Psionics. The Talent rules I quoted -- from the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents), mind -- were taken from Psionics Expanded, p. 123.

As mentioned, not all classes get talents. This is because talents weren't an original part of psionic rules. Dreamscarred introduced them, a bit off-handedly, when printing Ultimate Psionics. (Which was clearly not Ultimate.) Dreamscarred changed the rules, advancing talents upwards in utility. Thus, old classes have to be "retconned" to handle the new talent access. This is why the 1:1 Talent infusion rule is best: you can't tell if Dreamscarred intended to grant Marksmen with Talents or not. The best idea is to give all non-psions 1 or 2 talents -- probably 2 -- and then use the 1:1 Talent rule.


Wrong way around. Psionics Expanded came first, then Ultimate Psionics came after and superseded it. (In other words, it is "Ultimate.") The UPsi rules are the correct ones. They just happen to not have been fully uploaded to the PFSRD.

For Marksman, this means that as written they can pick up 0-level powers, but do not get any for free, so you're generally better off not taking any.(The fu€k happened to my original post???)
Eh, 500/1000 gp for a Cracked Orange Prism seems like a fair trade to get your hands on the awesomesauce that is Trick Shot.



t

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Any thoughts on Traits or Attributes by the way?

Or the pros and cons of Finnesse, Sniper or Volley Style?

[CGNefarious]

I just discovered the class today and was disappointed that there was no guide for it already. It's such an interesting class to me, it deserves a decent guide. I can put together some opinions on it for you if you're interested, though I can't say I'm an expert.

Either way, good luck on both your character and your guide.

[Unbodied]

I just discovered the class today and was disappointed that there was no guide for it already. It's such an interesting class to me, it deserves a decent guide. I can put together some opinions on it for you if you're interested, though I can't say I'm an expert.

Either way, good luck on both your character and your guide.

Any opinion is a welcome opinion. I'm completely new to actually playing the game so I don't feel qualified to make one on my own. But the more suggestions the better, especially if those suggestions promote discussion. :)

[Glorius Nippon]

Played a Marskman once, and they essentially play out as great archers who have self buffing and utility. Personally, I had dipped 3 levels into Zen Archer (monk) to get Wis to attack rolls, plus an extra attack from flurry of bows. Your effective BAB will remain the same because of flurry rules, and it makes your more SAD.

[Unbodied]

Played a Marskman once, and they essentially play out as great archers who have self buffing and utility. Personally, I had dipped 3 levels into Zen Archer (monk) to get Wis to attack rolls, plus an extra attack from flurry of bows. Your effective BAB will remain the same because of flurry rules, and it makes your more SAD.
Thanks for the tip but I think I'm going to stick with pure Marksman. I want that unlimited range ability and the cool capstones.

Plus I read something about there being some Marksman ability that doesn't do anything anymore if you take levels in Zen Archer?

Btw. Any opinions on stat distribution?

[CGNefarious]

I think it really depends on things. Usually Dex is by far the most important, followed by Wis. Some people will want Str to get extra damage with a composite bow, or so they are not screwed in melee. Otherwise it can be neglected, though dumping is probably bad. Obviously if you do thrown weapons only Dex will be a much less important and Str will shoot to the top. Most people will want Con so they aren't so frail, but with a D10 hit dice and being a ranged combatant I don't think it's that big of a deal. Int is only really used for skill points, so it's generally not very important, and Cha is a complete dump stat.

Your suggestions earlier were fairly on point.

[Unbodied]

I think it really depends on things. Usually Dex is by far the most important, followed by Wis. Some people will want Str to get extra damage with a composite bow, or so they are not screwed in melee. Otherwise it can be neglected, though dumping is probably bad. Obviously if you do thrown weapons only Dex will be a much less important and Str will shoot to the top. Most people will want Con so they aren't so frail, but with a D10 hit dice and being a ranged combatant I don't think it's that big of a deal. Int is only really used for skill points, so it's generally not very important, and Cha is a complete dump stat.

Your suggestions earlier were fairly on point.
Okay. Good to know. I suppose it also depends a bit on Style. I think the Sniper Style for example relies more on Wisdom since it can add it to attacks. I should be safe dumping Constitution, in addition to what you said I'm also playing as a Elan so if I do get hit I can just use Resilience to make sure I survive.

Any thoughts on your prefered Style by the way? I think I'm leaning towards Volley Style.

[CGNefarious]

I'm currently making a gestalt Stalker//Marksman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433078-Goblin-Archer-Build-Help) for a backup character in a campaign I recently started and I chose to go with the Volley style. I don't know if it's strictly better than the other two (I like Sniper Style a lot as well), but I'm used to archery in Pathfinder being about shooting tons of arrows at the enemy. I would like Sniper more if I'd started more combats further than 200 feet from an enemy, but usually it's not even close to that distance. I feel that lessens the viability of the Sniper quite a bit.

[Unbodied]

I'm currently making a gestalt Stalker//Marksman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433078-Goblin-Archer-Build-Help) for a backup character in a campaign I recently started and I chose to go with the Volley style. I don't know if it's strictly better than the other two (I like Sniper Style a lot as well), but I'm used to archery in Pathfinder being about shooting tons of arrows at the enemy. I would like Sniper more if I'd started more combats further than 200 feet from an enemy, but usually it's not even close to that distance. I feel that lessens the viability of the Sniper quite a bit.
I'm also leaning towards Volley. The most important ability for sniping from absurd distances is something you get anyway. On the other hand partly because of that the Sniper Style doesn't really seem like it needs to be from long range. Its more about dealing lots of damage with each hit, making sure you hit with every hit and lining up your shots to hit multiple enemies.

If I understand this correctly the Critical Master ability from the Sniper Style does increase your crit range by 1 even if you already have Improved Critical right? So if you use a bow you normally crit on 20, with Improved Critical its 19-20 and with Critical Master on top of that it becomes 18-20? Does that seem to low to bother with? Like taking Crit confirming traits/feats or Critical feats?

I think Volley Style might be better... Or more accurately I think Volley Style is better with bows (low crit range, high rate of fire) while Sniper Style works better with crossbows (high crit range, low rate of fire) while Finesse Style seems designed for throwing weapons. Its master ability is called Oubliette of Knives after all.

Well I'm playing as an archer so I guess its Volley Style for me.

Edit:
Any suggestions for Traits?

[TiaC]

I recommend manifesting Dissolving Weapon on all your arrows during downtime. As an instantaneous effect, it will last until you use it.

[Unbodied]

I recommend manifesting Dissolving Weapon on all your arrows during downtime. As an instantaneous effect, it will last until you use it.
Does acid count as poison though?

[TiaC]

Does acid count as poison though?

No, but it's still an extra 4d6 to all your attacks.

[Unbodied]

No, but it's still an extra 4d6 to all your attacks.
Ah ops. Thought I had asked about the Poisonous Slayer trait which gives +1 on attacks with bows if I use poison. Still this is a nice trick. Thanks for the tip. :)