Build help: Swordsage gestalt

[Nashira]

Howdy all,

I'm looking to build a gestalt swordsage. I want to get Full BAB and the TWF feat chain. I'd prefer to get TWF without spending all the feats on then, like via ranger, but it isn't nonnegotiable. Other than that the rest of the build is up in the air right now. What ideas might y'all have for me?

This is for 3.5 by the way.

[Brova]

Well, my standard gestalt option for a Tome of Battle build is Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/[Filler, probably a level of Barbarian and either Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage]/Master of Nine 5 || Factotum 20. That gives you auto-refreshing maneuvers, a couple of extra actions, and some other minor goodies. It's a tad complicated, so you might try something else, such as a Warshaper build.

In terms of basics, there are a few things I'd recommend. First, I think Factotum is probably the strongest non-Druid option for a ToB gestalt. The extra actions are normally kind of bad, because they don't do anything, but with maneuvers they turn into a sweet nova. Second, you want to look at the chassis of your class and pick a class on the other side with complementary basics (i.e. saves, HD, BAB). For this reason, I often consider Warblade a better option than Swordsage for a ToB gestalt. Any reason you're attached to Swordsage? Finally, you only get one PrC, unless your DM house rules things, meaning you want to pick a class that goes to twenty well on one side of your Gestalt.

There are a couple of classes you might look at if you find Factotum not to your taste, or anticipate a lower level game. Duskblade is the obvious one, providing some nice options in terms of combat nuking to supplement your maneuvers. Mystic Ranger (with Sword of the Arcane Order) is another good choice, offering Sorcerer spell progression to 10th and full BAB. Finally, you might consider a fairly standard martial build, stacking full BAB classes until you start taking PrC levels.

[Nashira]

I like swordsage a lot for the fluff. I realize it isn't the strongest of the TOB classes when it comes to gestalt (and a lot else, too) but I like the class. I want to take it to 20. I'm not necessarily looking for perfect optimization either, I just want a decent build that does some fun stuff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What exactly are you trying to achieve, thematically? Are you stealthy, are you from a small tribe or a large city, what's your background?

Swordsage meshes well with a passive side, which can be something like paladin - covering your good saves, full base attack, d10 hit die, divine grace switched over to wisdom courtesy of Serenity - or something like a persisting cleric - again, good saves, base attack is taken care of by Divine Power (or prestige into Ordained Champion and RKV), spells cover all weaknesses and more. One is tier 3 - because of swordsage - the other is tier 1 - because of cleric - but both are viable builds, and it might depend on the campaign which one you want to use.

You can go for a meldshaping class (totemist or incarnate), a psionic class (ardent, psychic warrior), or an arcane class (no wisdom synergy, but incantatrix 3 alone makes it a great passive). It's hard to tell you which way to go without further details.

[Brova]

I like swordsage a lot for the fluff. I realize it isn't the strongest of the TOB classes when it comes to gestalt (and a lot else, too) but I like the class. I want to take it to 20. I'm not necessarily looking for perfect optimization either, I just want a decent build that does some fun stuff.

That's fair. May I ask what level you're starting at? One option that seems pretty good is Barbarian 1/Rouge 5/Frenzied Berserker 10 || Fighter 6/Swordsage 10. The Fighter levels aren't strictly needed, but they give you a pile of feats, and still let you get maneuvers close to on time. Your basic plan is to using Whirling Frenzy (and actual Frenzy) to gain extra attacks, then charge people and make them explode because you seriously get five attacks for 5d6 sneak attack at level eight.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Swordsage 20// Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Fighter 2/ Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) 2/ Soulbow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) 10/ whatever 5

You can TWF with Mind Arrows, and your first +1 ability you put on them should be Lucky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#lucky), so every arrow gets a second chance to hit if the attack misses. You get to be good at ranged combat for free, so you can spend your gold on defensive items and buffing your melee. At every level you'll get +1 BAB from one of your classes.

[Nashira]

What exactly are you trying to achieve, thematically? Are you stealthy, are you from a small tribe or a large city, what's your background?.

Thematically, hunter turned warrior, raised in what was effectively a martial artist commune. The campaign is going to be kingmaker style (though run in 3.5).

He can be stealthy when he needs to, but much prefers open combat.

I'm happy to answer any other questions, but the backstory is fairly lengthy and not entirely pertinent, so you'll have to ask for what you want to know.

As for the rogue/barbarian, I like that idea (though I'd likely not go for those fighter levels of only four flavor reasons), would that take the pounce option for barb? And how does it get so many attacks and extra d6?

Oh, and we'll likely start somewhere between 1 and 5.

[Brova]

Thematically, hunter turned warrior, raised in what was effectively a martial artist commune. The campaign is going to be kingmaker style (though run in 3.5).

How high powered are you looking for? There's a lot of power to be had with full caster gestalts. One thing you can do is go Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantatrix +7 with a Mirror Mephit Improved Familiar to make simulacra of you, basically giving you the Shadow Clone technique from Naruto.


As for the rogue/barbarian, I like that idea (though I'd likely not go for those fighter levels of only four flavor reasons), would that take the pounce option for barb? And how does it get so many attacks and extra d6?

The Fighter levels are definitely optional, especially given that a Swordsage gets a third stance at 5th.

You'd take the Pounce option, as well as Whirling Frenzy (provided that gets ruled to qualify you for Frenzied Berserker). Whirling Frenzy is a Rage variant that gives, among other things, an extra attack (found in Unearthed Arcana).

You get two attacks from BAB, an extra one from TWF, and extras from Frenzy and Whirling Frenzy. That's a total of five, though it might only be four if you have to take Rage. The d6s come from sneak attack, as I'm assuming you're charging in the surprise round. You get 3d6 sneak attack from Rogue levels, plus 2d6 from assassin's stance. Your sneak attack won't scale much, but you get reasonably good bonuses from Frenzied Berserker.

[AvatarVecna]

It kinda depends on what kind of Swordsage you're going for. Swordsage 20//(Swift Hunter build w/ Pouncebarian dip) has great damage from the start, Wis to AC, tons of skill points, and high BAB. If you're looking for something that's different enough from the swordsage that it covers its weaknesses...honestly, Fighter or Warblade (or both) are awesome: full BAB, good Fort save, better HP, and feats. Both are awesome, and can help round out your skilled warrior. If you're looking for a Wis-SAD character, a Swordsage 20//Monk/Druid (Deadly Hunter ACF)/Shiba Protector/Sacred Fist can get Wis to AC three times, Wis to attack bonus, and Wis to damage twice, one top of probably 7th lvl spells by 20th level (decent), although you've got issues with the action economy at that point.

[Brova]

On further consideration, I think the pounce build may actually be best as straight Barbarian 1/Rogue 19. I don't think you miss any BAB (the Barbarian level desynchronizes things), and you get to do very large amounts of sneak attack damage on a charge. Ideally you'd pick up anything that gives you extra attacks, some way of making people flat footed (easiest is Ring of Blink, best is an Item Familiar that activates itself for Shaped grease), and maybe a way of making your attacks touch attacks (finding wraithstrike somewhere would be fantastic).

[Waker]

Honestly you can go straight Ranger 20//Swordsage 20 and still be fine. You'll only have D8HD, but full BAB, all good saves, 6 skill points and a large skill list. The Combat Styles can grant you the requisite TWF feats you want, though if you need more feats, you could take the Champion of the Wild from Complete Champion. Since you'll have Evasion from two sources, perhaps consider grabbing Feign Death from Exemplars of Evil or Spell Reflection from Complete Mage. Honestly the Ranger pet is rather underwhelming, so perhaps look at Distracting Attack from Player's Handbook II or Spiritual Guide from Complete Champion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Thematically, hunter turned warrior, raised in what was effectively a martial artist commune.
In that case, I second AvatarVecna's suggestion of a swift hunter build (the feat is in Complete Scoundrel, page 81). Scout 4/Ranger 16 costs you one point of base attack, but you get full skirmish and favoured enemy, bonus move speed (twice, if you pick that ranger variant), utility spells, trapfinding, uncanny dodge and so on. Very good at hunting and fighting on the move. Between Evasive Reflexes, Press the Advantage (a White Raven stance, which you can't pick up with swordsage levels), Shifting Defence (Setting Sun stance), Shadow Blink and possibly Travel Devotion, you can set up a lot of opportunities to full attack with skirmish damage.

[Brova]

In that case, I second AvatarVecna's suggestion of a swift hunter build (the feat is in Complete Scoundrel, page 81). Scout 4/Ranger 16 costs you one point of base attack,

Quick note: It only costs you a BAB point if you take a level of Scout at first. If you go Ranger 1/Scout 4/Ranger +15, you get full BAB. You miss from Swordsage at 1st and 5th, but you get a point from Ranger at 1st and Scout at 5th. Then it's all full BAB all the way.

[AvatarVecna]

Quick note: It only costs you a BAB point if you take a level of Scout at first. If you go Ranger 1/Scout 4/Ranger +15, you get full BAB. You miss from Swordsage at 1st and 5th, but you get a point from Ranger at 1st and Scout at 5th. Then it's all full BAB all the way.

Granted, that's only when you're doing standard calculation rather than fractional; I tend to use fractional, because I find it gives bigger numbers usually and is generally less of a headache, but it's personal preference. Also, if you were going the Swift Hunter route, I would suggest Swordsage 20//Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15, taking Swift Hunter as your level 6 feat; you have pounce from first level, full BAB, all good saves your entire career, uncanny dodge, evasion, high skill points your entire career (even with a low Int), and a standard ubercharger build that isn't useless if you can't pounce. Tiger Claw in particular has a lot of maneuvers that lend themselves to multiple attacks combined with movement, making it great for a scout build; if you got that route, there's a decent argument for squeezing Bloodclaw Master 5 somewhere in there; whether it's depriving you of some skirmish dice or if it's making the swordsage capstone stuff unavailable is your choice, but either way it's a decent option at least.

[Brova]

Granted, that's only when you're doing standard calculation rather than fractional; I tend to use fractional, because I find it gives bigger numbers usually and is generally less of a headache, but it's personal preference. Also, if you were going the Swift Hunter route, I would suggest Swordsage 20//Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15, taking Swift Hunter as your level 6 feat; you have pounce from first level, full BAB, all good saves your entire career, uncanny dodge, evasion, high skill points your entire career (even with a low Int), and a standard ubercharger build that isn't useless if you can't pounce. Tiger Claw in particular has a lot of maneuvers that lend themselves to multiple attacks combined with movement, making it great for a scout build; if you got that route, there's a decent argument for squeezing Bloodclaw Master 5 somewhere in there; whether it's depriving you of some skirmish dice or if it's making the swordsage capstone stuff unavailable is your choice, but either way it's a decent option at least.

What does that have over the Rogue build I suggested? It seems like you pick up some relatively weak Ranger stuff in exchange for basically halving your damage output (as skirmish only gives d6/4 levels, IIRC). I guess the good Fort is pretty nice, though I'm not sure it matters in a world where you are already in a ToB class.

[AvatarVecna]

What does that have over the Rogue build I suggested? It seems like you pick up some relatively weak Ranger stuff in exchange for basically halving your damage output (as skirmish only gives d6/4 levels, IIRC). I guess the good Fort is pretty nice, though I'm not sure it matters in a world where you are already in a ToB class.

I was building ont he people who suggested the Swift Hunter build. Your rogue build is very good for pure damage, but getting damage on a pouncebarian isn't that difficult, and once you get your damage up high enough, you can start allocating resources elsewhere. As for what it's better at...

1) The Swift Hunter build has better BAB if you're going by fractional, and it has a better Fortitude save no matter what method you're using to calculate it. Still, it's a minor different either way; I'm pretty sure you can still get BAB +16 even with fractional with your Rogue build, so you still have as many attacks.

2) Sneak Attack is a more situational bonus; skirmish just requires movement. Since you've got pounce at level 1, you're already golden there. Granted, both can be blocked by fortification, immunities, and the like, but that hurts both builds equally.

3) Scout and Ranger both get bonus feats that make this dual-wielding ubercharger less feat-starved. Rogue does not.

4) The AC bonus from Skirmish helps offset the AC penalty Shock Trooper gives, making the lower trade-offs cost-free and making the higher trade-offs more viable; this takes away one of the biggest disadvantages to ubercharging (that you open yourself up to counter-attack if you go all-out).

5) You get some Ranger spells; while not exactly the best list in the world, it's still spellcasting on a build that doesn't otherwise have it.

The Rogue build has some great options, and it has higher overall damage. The Swift Hunter build has spells and more reliable damage (although not as high). Ultimately, it doesn't really matter which build you go with, they'll both be in the same general ballpark of power (namely, a gestalt with ToB on one side and no important casting on the other side).

[Brova]

I should point out I agree with most of what you've said, but I think there are a few things you've missed.


2) Sneak Attack is a more situational bonus; skirmish just requires movement. Since you've got pounce at level 1, you're already golden there. Granted, both can be blocked by fortification, immunities, and the like, but that hurts both builds equally.

I don't know about that. Either build puts you in the position of being a fairly mobile scout, meaning you are likely to get the drop on enemies, which makes sneak attack fairly reliable. Swordsage also has a couple of options to pump give extra sneak attack opportunities, though they are kind of marginal (island of blades and the invisibility boost). Also, by RAW the Rogue deals with natural immunity slightly better as wands of grave strike or equivalent only work on sneak attack.


3) Scout and Ranger both get bonus feats that make this dual-wielding ubercharger less feat-starved. Rogue does not.

On the surface level this is true, as the Rogue doesn't offer any actual feats in this direction, but the sneak attack damage removes the need for Shock Trooper or similar feats, as you are already dealing massive damage. Also, those feats are a pretty poor option for a TWF build.


The Rogue build has some great options, and it has higher overall damage. The Swift Hunter build has spells and more reliable damage (although not as high). Ultimately, it doesn't really matter which build you go with, they'll both be in the same general ballpark of power (namely, a gestalt with ToB on one side and no important casting on the other side).

This I very much agree with.

[AvatarVecna]

I should point out I agree with most of what you've said, but I think there are a few things you've missed.



1) I don't know about that. Either build puts you in the position of being a fairly mobile scout, meaning you are likely to get the drop on enemies, which makes sneak attack fairly reliable. Swordsage also has a couple of options to pump give extra sneak attack opportunities, though they are kind of marginal (island of blades and the invisibility boost). Also, by RAW the Rogue deals with natural immunity slightly better as wands of grave strike or equivalent only work on sneak attack.



2) On the surface level this is true, as the Rogue doesn't offer any actual feats in this direction, but the sneak attack damage removes the need for Shock Trooper or similar feats, as you are already dealing massive damage. Also, those feats are a pretty poor option for a TWF build.



This I very much agree with.

1) My point was that SA requires flanking or Flat-Footed (there's other ways, but they're equally situational); skirmish just requires movement to get the damage; with pounce, unless you're incapable of charging (which does happen on occasion) you'll always have skirmish available. Also, I seem to recall a rule somewhere (probably in Complete Adventurer) that things that are specifically called out as affecting SA also affect skirmish or similar precision damage; now, I'll add the caveat that what I'm recalling might only be referring to pre-reqs and doesn't include spell effects, but it might work, and even if it doesn't be RAW, I can easily see a DM letting it slide, especially if they're already allowing gestalt.

2) Fair enough, but I still think that SA damage isn't dependable enough to get rid of other damage sources. Hell, I don't even think skirmish is dependable enough to get rid of other damage sources.

And yeah, both builds will still be pretty cool...or at least as cool as non full casters can be.

[Nifft]

If you want TWF and full BAB, then I assume:
- You do NOT want to Wildshape or otherwise shape-change into something that has a bunch of natural attacks; and
- You plan on melee being your main thing, rather than mixing in ranged or spellcasting.

Is that accurate?

The next question is: what kind of ability scores do you have? Are you going for Dex+Wis (so pure Finesse with no Str to damage), or can you afford to buff Dex, Wis, Con, Str, Int and Cha to some degree?

What's your weapon of choice going to be? If it's a pair of weapons of the same type, then Fighter starts to look less horrible than usual. Combine the Darksong Knight ACF (CV) with the Zhentarim Fighter ACF (also CV), and you've got some decent mobility and good synergy with Tiger Claw, plus enough feats to pull off all sorts of stuff, including easily snagging the prereqs for Master of Nine.

On the subject of ToB classes named "Master", how about Bloodclaw Master? It seems like Superior Two-Weapon Fighting and Pouncing Strike would be worth it alone, but you also get full BAB, d12 HD, and some extra maneuvers known. It's a very solid use for 5 levels of the non-Swordsage side of your build.

So I guess the build would go like:

Swordsage 15 / Master of Nine 5 // Fighter 5 / Occult Slayer 5 / Bloodclaw Master 5 / Fighter 6-10

The idea would be to use the Master of Nine levels when you can afford another Fighter level on your full-BAB side.

Occult Slayer could be replaced, but it shares some pre-reqs with Master of Nine, and it seems to cover some of your defensive holes.

[Nashira]

So first off, I am very much now liking the Swift Hunter build. It fits very thematically into the character concept, and gives me a decent amount of utility outside of combat, plus I just like the Swift Hunter. I also like the idea of having an animal companion, even if the ranger companion does suck eggs, it's just neat to have the option.


If you want TWF and full BAB, then I assume:
- You do NOT want to Wildshape or otherwise shape-change into something that has a bunch of natural attacks; and
- You plan on melee being your main thing, rather than mixing in ranged or spellcasting.

Is that accurate?

Correct


The next question is: what kind of ability scores do you have? Are you going for Dex+Wis (so pure Finesse with no Str to damage), or can you afford to buff Dex, Wis, Con, Str, Int and Cha to some degree?

Probably mostly WIS+DEX and a little STR, everything else is dependent on rolls.


What's your weapon of choice going to be?

Two short swords, probably. the various prestiges you mentioned do sound powerful, but I'm leaning towards the Swift Hunter build for my aforementioned reasons, unless someone has some other suggestions that can fit this sort of a niche.

There are only going to be two of us PC's in the campaign so versatility will make out of combat stuff far less stale.

[Nifft]

There are only going to be two of us PC's in the campaign so versatility will make out of combat stuff far less stale.

Only two PCs? That changes things. You may need to cover more roles, including healer and/or battlefield control.

I highly recommend being a Wisdom caster on the other side of Swordsage.

You like having an animal companion? Then go Druid 20 // Swordsage 20 and be a literal kung-fu panda.

Tiger Claw has "claw" as a favored weapon. Use claws. Also bite.

[AvatarVecna]

Building on the above, you could also use the sacred fist build I suggested upthread (Swordsage 20//Monk 2/Druid (Deadly Hunter) 3/Sacred Fist 10/? 5) For nearly full druid casting, ranger tracking, triple Wis mod to AC, and evasion, although you have to give up wild shape for it. Honestly, Swordsage 20//Druid 20 is a more optimized build, because more casting, but if you still wanna be mostly a warrior, this build will do that well enough.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Quick note: It only costs you a BAB point if you take a level of Scout at first. If you go Ranger 1/Scout 4/Ranger +15, you get full BAB. You miss from Swordsage at 1st and 5th, but you get a point from Ranger at 1st and Scout at 5th. Then it's all full BAB all the way.

No! Don't calculate BAB and base saves like this in gestalt!

Or do you like the idea of a Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 having full BAB?

..You probably do, why'd I even ask?

[Brova]

No! Don't calculate BAB and base saves like this in gestalt!

Or do you like the idea of a Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 having full BAB?

..You probably do, why'd I even ask?

I don't particularly care either way, but that is how the rules work. Frankly, it's a fairly marginal improvement and most characters in Gestalt are going to have full BAB anyway (either by Gestalting a full BAB class or by Gestalting DMM Cleric), so I can't imagine it is in any way unbalanced.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't particularly care either way, but that is how the rules work. Frankly, it's a fairly marginal improvement and most characters in Gestalt are going to have full BAB anyway (either by Gestalting a full BAB class or by Gestalting DMM Cleric), so I can't imagine it is in any way unbalanced.

Well, DMM Cleric wouldn't work too well in my games since I ban Persistent Spell and night sticks (I'm cool with you wasting 5 of your hard-earned Turn Undeads to DMM Quicken something, though), either.

And that's not "how the rules work." We know how the rules work for adding up BAB in normal D&D. We have no idea one way or the other how you do it with gestalt and its two distinctly separate "sides," what the RAW interpretation is. It is pretty clear what the sane and silly interpretations are, though.

[Brova]

Well, DMM Cleric wouldn't work too well in my games since I ban Persistent Spell and night sticks (I'm cool with you wasting 5 of your hard-earned Turn Undeads to DMM Quicken something, though), either.

So we should evaluate the rules of the unmodified game based on how they compare to your houserules? I don't know that I find that particular perspective very compelling.


And that's not "how the rules work." We know how the rules work for adding up BAB in normal D&D. We have no idea one way or the other how you do it with gestalt and its two distinctly separate "sides," what the RAW interpretation is. It is pretty clear what the sane and silly interpretations are, though.

By RAW the Rogue gains a point of BAB at every level except 1/5/9/13/17. By RAW gestalt progressions give you the best of both sides. By RAW, Barbarian 1/Rogue 19 || Cleric 20 gives full BAB.

And honestly, the sane interpretation is probably that you get the BAB. No one is trying to use an abuse magic device of +70 with a knowstone of holy word, or chain bind Efreet. You're going from 3/4 BAB to full BAB in a variant where at least three quarters of people have it anyway.

[marphod]

Swift Hunters are fine at penetrating immunity to precision damage. Look at the feat.

If you attack a favored enemy, any applicable skirmish applies even if they would have immunity.

First Favored Enemy: Arcanists.
For the next two, I'd go Undead and Constructs. Not enough Plants and Oozes usually to worry about (but if they are in your game, you do get 5 favored enemies, and you're fine.)

If you're going Mystic Ranger, you only get 4 FE, but you're more likely better off petitioning the Dm to allow Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and the like to work with Skirmish.

[rrwoods]

Someone mentioned getting Wis to AC 3 times involving swordsage and monk (and something else). This requires a house rule since swordsage and monk name their bonuses the same.

[AvatarVecna]

Someone mentioned getting Wis to AC 3 times involving swordsage and monk (and something else). This requires a house rule since swordsage and monk name their bonuses the same.

That was me, and the Deadly Hunter Druid ACF (which is the other thing I mentioned) essentially gives the druid a bunch of things in place of Wild Shape, including the Monk's AC bonus, so I guess that'll have to be houseruled as well...at least, as long as you're acting under the assumption that untyped bonuses that have the same name but come from different sources are too similar by RAW to stack, despite source (and not name) being what RAW says determines whether or not untyped bonuses can stack.

EDIT: Of course it could be argued that the Druid and Monk sources are too similar (since the Druid is just copying the Monk), but the Swordsage isn't just a copy of the monk, it's a Swordsage class feature that makes no mention of monks. It should probably be mentioned, though, that these only stack if you're going Unarmed Swordsage, which isn't technically a class on its own as much as a mechanically defined adaption of the standard swordsage.