[3.5] Iron Will vs. Scorpion's Resolve

[Thurbane]

Is Iron Will or Scorpion's Resolve strictly better on a character?

Iron Will gives a flat +2 on Will saves, while Scorpion's Resolve gives +4, but only on mind-affecting (which is the vast majority of Will saves).

For the sake of this discussion, please leave out magic items that do the same thing, or locations like Otyugh Hole, thanks.

One of my player's (Catfolk Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3) is considering one of these for his level 9 feat. He has the lowest Will save in the party (next lowest is the Warblade, but he has Moment of Perfect Mind).

Cheers - T

[Troacctid]

You answered your own question. Scorpion's Resolve only applies to mind-affecting effects, so it's not strictly better.

[Taveena]

There's a significant number of will saves which AREN'T mind-affecting, like the Inflict line and hostile teleportation spells. For a lot of characters, though, Force of Personality or Keen Intellect is going to be a stronger choice than either.

Iron Will, however, is probably the better option, because it can be obtained without spending a feat by being imprisoned for a week in the Otyugh Hole.

[Thurbane]

Iron Will, however, is probably the better option, because it can be obtained without spending a feat by being imprisoned for a week in the Otyugh Hole.

For the sake of this discussion, please leave out magic items that do the same thing, or locations like Otyugh Hole, thanks.

Otyugh Hole is not an option...

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's a significant number of will saves which AREN'T mind-affecting, like the Inflict line and hostile teleportation spells. For a lot of characters, though, Force of Personality or Keen Intellect is going to be a stronger choice than either.

Iron Will, however, is probably the better option, because it can be obtained without spending a feat by being imprisoned for a week in the Otyugh Hole.

Force of Will is also only mind-affecting will saves, so unless you have a charisma score 10 or more points above your wisdom score, FoP will not be strictly better than Scorpion's Resolve.

Keen Intellect...the only thing I see is from Oriental Adventures and it just boosts Knowledge, Search, and Intelligence checks by +1. What feat are you referring to?

We should list the stuff that's a will save but not mind-affecting. I will add:

Slow (the spell; the dragon's breath is a fort save)
Glitterdust
Bestow Curse and its Greater version
Baleful Polymorph (the 2nd save, to see if you completely lose your former self)
Command Undead (but you're immune to mind-affecting Will saves anyway if this applies to you)

[Thurbane]

You answered your own question. Scorpion's Resolve only applies to mind-affecting effects, so it's not strictly better.

In general though (at least in my games) 80% of will saves are mind-affecting: so is it better to have +2 100% of the time, or +4 80% of the time?


Keen Intellect...the only thing I see is from Oriental Adventures and it just boosts Knowledge, Search, and Intelligence checks by +1. What feat are you referring to?

Dragon # 318 (the OA 3.5 update issue) changes the feat so that it adds Int instead of Wis to Will saves (also Int replaces Wis for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks).

[GreatDane]

Personally, I'd take Iron Will. All of the non-[mind-affecting] effects listed by above posters sound too nasty to leave yourself unprotected against.

[Chronos]

It depends on why you're concerned about it. Failing any save can take you out of a fight. Failing a mind-effecting save will often not just take you out of a fight, but cause you to hurt your allies, too. For many characters, the first might not be worth spending a feat to prevent at all, but the second might.

[noob]

Mordenkainen disjunction anyone?
This is why iron will is cool.
Especially in the place where I play MD is the basic attack every npc uses.