[PF] Divine Protection got nerfed. Now what?

[Arbane]

Benefit: Once per day as an immediate action before rolling a saving throw, you can add your Charisma modifier on that saving throw. As usual, this does not stack if you already apply your Charisma modifier to that saving throw. If you possess the charmed life class feature, you can instead apply Divine Protection's bonus after rolling the saving throw but before the result is revealed.

Ouch.

Well, Divine Protection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-protection) just went from overpowered to nearly useless. Any suggestions for good things to replace it with?

(I like that they left the old text there, just to rub it in.)

[Psyren]

Toughness? Oracles were the ones using it the most, and they are already T2, they don't even need feats at all to be good. They certainly didn't need this feat.

This isn't anything new by the by, the errata came out weeks ago.

[Secret Wizard]

Great Fortitude is an amazing feat that all my Rogues, Bards, Investigators, Swashbucklers, Wizards and Sorcerers use (except the Kobold Sorcerers, of course, who just take Kobold Confidence).

You should try it out.

[Arbane]

Toughness? Oracles were the ones using it the most, and they are already T2, they don't even need feats at all to be good. They certainly didn't need this feat.

This isn't anything new by the by, the errata came out weeks ago.

It was news to me.... and given my group's pathetic track record with saving throws

2 sessions ago, we fought a critter that can spam Charm Person. All five PCs failed their Will saves, TWICE, in a group where all but one character has a good Will save. Thankfully, two Xill showed up (and that is not a sentence anyone in a sane universe should ever have to type), and my character had an excuse to cast Protection from Evil, narrowly averting a potential TPK and a definite hosing.

I need any save-boosters I can find.

[Psyren]

Given that Charm Person is a 1st-level spell, it sounds like your group either had crappy rolls (nothing anyone here can do about that) or your GM is throwing a monster at you whose save DCs are too strong for your level (nothing anyone here can do about that either.) The feat needed to be nerfed.

If you want feats to boost your will save, I suggest Iron Will, followed by Familiar Bond/Imp. Familiar Bond for a Hedgehog. Your main recourse is going to be items however.

[Pex]

Use traits. You can spend one to get +1 to fortitude saves and another for +1 to will. Without evasion it's not worth increasing reflex. As a human you can get Great Fortitude and Iron Will at 1st level. That's +3 to two of your saves. It's two feats and two traits, but it's there if saving throws are really important to you. Oracles like to take Extra Revelation. That can wait until 3rd level

[Psyren]

Also, you didn't say if you were an Oracle or not, but you can also use spells like Protection from Evil to protect yourself from a monster trying to charm you.

[Arbane]

The feat needed to be nerfed.

I don't disagree, but I think they overdid it in the opposite direction.


Also, you didn't say if you were an Oracle or not, but you can also use spells like Protection from Evil to protect yourself from a monster trying to charm you.

Yeah, that's the only thing that held off a TPK. (None of us could roll above an 8 until my Oracle started spamming Protection from Evil - then suddenly, we ALL made the saves. Our dice hate us.)

[Da'Shain]

Be a kobold (or humanish race with Racial Heritage) oracle with the Lore or Lunar mystery.

Take Sidestep Secret/Prophetic Armor as your first revelation.

Take Steadfast Personality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steadfast-personality).

Take Kobold Confidence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/kobold-confidence).

Your Fort, Ref and Will saves are now keyed off of your main casting stat at 3rd level, and so is your Dex bonus to AC.

For extra fun, take the Lore Keeper revelation for Cha to all Knowledge skills, take Noble Scion (War) at 1st level for Cha to Initiative, be evil, learn Animate Dead, and become an Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave) to base all your future HP off Cha.

[Arbane]

Take Steadfast Personality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steadfast-personality).


Will saves are generally the ones that worry me the most, so this seems like a good choice.

[Psyren]

Note that Steadfast Personality was errata'd too; it only applies to mind-affecting will saves. (That will help with your Charm Person problem though.)

Also be sure your GM is using Charm Person properly. The critter that spammed it for instance doesn't get to control you like an automaton (charm is not dominate) and also, after the first person was charmed the rest of you should have been considered "ithreatened" and thus got a +5 bonus to your save.

[Arbane]

Note that Steadfast Personality was errata'd too; it only applies to mind-affecting will saves. (That will help with your Charm Person problem though.)


This game REALLY loves making people fail saves, doesn't it?

(Level 7 fighter vs. a CR 7 succubus: Even with Iron Will and a +2 Wisdom modifier, there's a 80% chance the succubus will have a new chew-toy, and that's if she sticks to Charm Monster.)



Also be sure your GM is using Charm Person properly. The critter that spammed it for instance doesn't get to control you like an automaton (charm is not dominate) and also, after the first person was charmed the rest of you should have been considered "ithreatened" and thus got a +5 bonus to your save.

I should've thought of the 'threatened' thing. Argh. (And it wasn't ordering us around, just asking questions - who lives here, what's their defenses, etc...)

[Secret Wizard]

You really need to buy that Fighter a Wayfinder and a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone.

[Spore]

Great. Now after I have asked my DM to accept the Divine Protection feat for my oracle (as it is defensive and my oracle is often the thing standing between our group and a TPK) I now either have to ask him to swap that feat out or have him have a happy grin as I have to keep the feat as written now.

[Psyren]

This game REALLY loves making people fail saves, doesn't it?

(Level 7 fighter vs. a CR 7 succubus: Even with Iron Will and a +2 Wisdom modifier, there's a 80% chance the succubus will have a new chew-toy, and that's if she sticks to Charm Monster.)

1) A Fighter was unlikely to have the Cha necessary to make either of these feats matter anyway.
2) A 50gp potion or a 1st-level party buff solves his problems; hopefully that's within the budget/ability-set of a 7th-level character/party :smalltongue:


Great. Now after I have asked my DM to accept the Divine Protection feat for my oracle (as it is defensive and my oracle is often the thing standing between our group and a TPK) I now either have to ask him to swap that feat out or have him have a happy grin as I have to keep the feat as written now.

Oh noes, the poor T2 class!

I mean come on, I'm trying really hard not to break out the tiny violin here but if your Oracle's success was hinging on such an obviously broken feat... I don't really know what else to say other than "get good" "there are plenty of other viable options out there that will allow your 9th-level full-casting tier 2 class with access to the cleric list to maintain its supremacy against CR-appropriate encounters of all kinds."

[Username.]

Note that Steadfast Personality was errata'd too; it only applies to mind-affecting will saves.

Incorrect. Mind-affecting is not mentioned in the (definitely, you betcha, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die) final text (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steadfast-personality).



Page 157—Change the Spirit’s Gift feat’s final sentence to “Once during the next 24 hours, you can spend a standard action to grant your animal companion or familiar that shaman spirit’s spirit animal ability for 1 minute per level in the class that grants your animal companion or familiar.” In the Spontaneous Nature’s Ally feat’s Benefit section, at the end, add the following sentence, “For the purpose of this feat only, the summon nature’s ally spells of the appropriate spell levels count as being on your spell list at the same spell level as for a druid.” In the Steadfast Personality feat, change the Benefit section to “Benefit: Add your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves. If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.”

The confusion may arise from the errata of the feats table, which includes the mind-affecting limitation, likely carried forward from the original text.



Page 139—In the Merciless Butchery entry, in the Benefits entry, change “swift” to “standard”. In the Slashing Grace entry, in the Benefits section, delete “one-handed”. In the Steadfast Personality entry, change the Benefits entry to “Use your Charisma modifier on saves against mind-affecting effects”.

We can assume that the errata for the text is correct by bootstrapping the text-trumps-table ruling from WotC (not a safe decision) or, in this case, that the text errata is validated by pfsrd. Nevertheless, the results are ambiguous.

As such, the errata legitimately needs errata.

Funny story: people pay money for these books.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I'm having trouble feeling bad about a feat that existed just to screw over Paladins for being stupid enough to actually take levels in the class.

Now if only they'd nerf that bs Cleric spell that gives a ton of Paladin goodies, too. Of course, that's a spell, so it's far less likely to get nerfed, cause this is Pathfinder.

[grarrrg]

Incorrect. Mind-affecting is not mentioned in the (definitely, you betcha, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die) final text (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steadfast-personality).
...
The confusion may arise from the errata of the feats table, which includes the mind-affecting limitation, likely carried forward from the original text.

You are incorrectly incorrect.
They added a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tmj)
"The table is correct. It only applies against mind-affecting effects."

[Oberon Kenobi]

Yeah, I'm having trouble feeling bad about a feat that existed just to screw over Paladins for being stupid enough to actually take levels in the class.I fail to see how the feat screwed Paladins over. That's like saying the existence of grit feats screws Gunslingers over; there's more to the class than that. And the new version is actually worse for Paladins, since they can't get any benefit out of it at all.

Regardless of whether it 'needed' a nerf or not, though (and I don't disagree that it did), the new version is awful. "Here, spend 10% of your pre-epic feat revenue on a thing that you benefit from by betting that you're going to roll poorly. Ahead of time. So it might work like once a day. Good luck not wasting it on a natural 20 since you can't wait and decide to add it in after the fact! #gamedesign"

[Psyren]

Incorrect. Mind-affecting is not mentioned in the (definitely, you betcha, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die) final text (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/steadfast-personality).




The confusion may arise from the errata of the feats table, which includes the mind-affecting limitation, likely carried forward from the original text.




We can assume that the errata for the text is correct by bootstrapping the text-trumps-table ruling from WotC (not a safe decision) or, in this case, that the text errata is validated by pfsrd. Nevertheless, the results are ambiguous.

As such, the errata legitimately needs errata.

Funny story: people pay money for these books.

Way ahead of you dude. Mind-affecting only. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tmj) I know what I'm talking about.

(Funny story - you don't actually have to pay money for these books if you feel that strongly about it, they're OGL.)



Now if only they'd nerf that bs Cleric spell that gives a ton of Paladin goodies, too. Of course, that's a spell, so it's far less likely to get nerfed, cause this is Pathfinder.

Most people want to start being paladins before 13th level though.

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh noes, the poor T2 class!

I mean come on, I'm trying really hard not to break out the tiny violin here but if your Oracle's success was hinging on such an obviously broken feat... I don't really know what else to say other than "get good" "there are plenty of other viable options out there that will allow your 9th-level full-casting tier 2 class with access to the cleric list to maintain its supremacy against CR-appropriate encounters of all kinds."

Yes the Oracle is still an awesome class that functions perfectly fine even with Divine Protection getting castrated but the tragedy isn't that the Oracle is now impotent; it's that the combo of Oracle+Divine Protection was beautiful and paizo, maddened by its perfection, wrapped their meaty, hairy-knuckled fingers around its throat and choked the life out of it while spewing bile and froth into its face.

What they did was like neutering Power Attack for Barbarians. Sure, Barbarians can still be angry and unpleasant to socialize with but Power Attack is a perfect combo for letting them express their anger and making them REALLY unpleasant to socialize with.

I don't think anyone is saying the Oracle is unplayable without Divine Protection. We're simply morning it's passing.

Alas, Divine Protection, you were too beautiful for this world.

[squiggit]

Naw I wouldn't even go that far. Divine Protection was really, really, really stupid. Nothing else.

But the change does push it too far in the other direction.

[Psyren]

Naw I wouldn't even go that far. Divine Protection was really, really, really stupid. Nothing else.

But the change does push it too far in the other direction.

I think (or rather, desperately hope) that (Un)Inspired was being ironically/sarcastically hyperbolic. At least, I've mentally replaced that entire post with blue text :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

I think (or rather, desperately hope) that (Un)Inspired was being ironically/sarcastically hyperbolic. At least, I've mentally replaced that entire post with blue text :smalltongue:

Nope. I was being sincere.

[Psyren]

Nope. I was being sincere.

Then in place of "perfection" and "beauty" I'll just use words like "horrible oversight," "dearth of playtesting..." and, maybe I'll throw in oblique suggestions that there were some controlled substances involved in that feat's creation. Not quite as high-grade as whatever they were on when Sacred Geometry made it to the printer, but up there.

[Username.]

Way ahead of you dude. Mind-affecting only. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9tmj) I know what I'm talking about.

(Funny story - you don't actually have to pay money for these books if you feel that strongly about it, they're OGL.)

. . . which is in a FAQ, and not yet in the errata, which is part of the point: it still has to be errata'd.

And I never said you had to pay money. I said people do. That was why the point was amusing. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

[(Un)Inspired]

Then in place of "perfection" and "beauty" I'll just use words like "horrible oversight," "dearth of playtesting..." and, maybe I'll throw in oblique suggestions that there were some controlled substances involved in that feat's creation. Not quite as high-grade as whatever they were on when Sacred Geometry made it to the printer, but up there.

Our eyes gaze out onto two different worlds my friend.

[Psyren]

. . . which is in a FAQ, and not yet in the errata, which is part of the point: it still has to be errata'd.

It doesn't actually - FAQ is RAW in PF.


Our eyes gaze out onto two different worlds my friend.

That much is clear. Cheers!

[ericgrau]

Ouch.

Well, Divine Protection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-protection) just went from overpowered to nearly useless. Any suggestions for good things to replace it with?

(I like that they left the old text there, just to rub it in.)

The high level sorcerer auto-passes 1 save a day, low level one has great odds. That doesn't seem useless at all to me. You don't usually roll that many saves. And most of those are reflex saves and when you do roll a fort save or will it means your life is on a line. Or a reflex save after you've taken damage. If you have charmed life that makes it even more likely that you'll save it for when you need it and it might be your only save that matters the whole day.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I fail to see how the feat screwed Paladins over. That's like saying the existence of grit feats screws Gunslingers over; there's more to the class than that. And the new version is actually worse for Paladins, since they can't get any benefit out of it at all.

Regardless of whether it 'needed' a nerf or not, though (and I don't disagree that it did), the new version is awful. "Here, spend 10% of your pre-epic feat revenue on a thing that you benefit from by betting that you're going to roll poorly. Ahead of time. So it might work like once a day. Good luck not wasting it on a natural 20 since you can't wait and decide to add it in after the fact! #gamedesign"

Divine Grace is one of the Paladin's best class features. Giving it away so easily and explicitly not letting it stack with Divine Grace (ooh, a +1, that's so worth it!) is an absolute slap in the face. The arguable suckiness of the new version doesn't change the fact that the original shouldn't have existed, and it's disturbing so many people lament it being fixed.


Most people want to start being paladins before 13th level though.

The 14th level Oracle may have rather gotten his massive charisma bonus to saves earlier than then, but getting it at level 14 is still infinitely better than never getting it at all. Or *gasp* multiclassing and losing spell progression.

If I gave the Wizard every single Fighter, Rogue, and Monk class feature at 20th level for the combined reasons of "meh, he's already GOD, this won't change that" and "well, he's getting it really late" I guess we should all be totally cool with that. Right?

[Psyren]

Divine Grace is one of the Paladin's best class features. Giving it away so easily and explicitly not letting it stack with Divine Grace (ooh, a +1, that's so worth it!) is an absolute slap in the face. The arguable suckiness of the new version doesn't change the fact that the original shouldn't have existed, and it's disturbing so many people lament it being fixed.

+1


The 14th level Oracle may have rather gotten his massive charisma bonus to saves earlier than then, but getting it at level 14 is still infinitely better than never getting it at all. Or *gasp* multiclassing and losing spell progression.

If I gave the Wizard every single Fighter, Rogue, and Monk class feature at 20th level for the combined reasons of "meh, he's already GOD, this won't change that" and "well, he's getting it really late" I guess we should all be totally cool with that. Right?

The big difference with Bestow Grace of the Champion is (a) 7th-level spells (and 4th-level pally spells) are late-game, (b) the spell has alignment and therefore roleplay requirements, and (b) you can simply dispel it. There's plenty of "tradeoff" there that leaves me fine with that spell, even if on a superficial level it grants a similar benefit to the feat which is available much earlier.

[ghanjrho]

I'm thinking of house ruling the new version to include a +1 to all STs. Maybe make the bonus Sacred/Profane. And probably reintroduce the Know(Rel) prerequisite. Not the casting though.

[Spore]

Oh noes, the poor T2 class!

I mean come on, I'm trying really hard not to break out the tiny violin here but if your Oracle's success was hinging on such an obviously broken feat... I don't really know what else to say other than "get good" "there are plenty of other viable options out there that will allow your 9th-level full-casting tier 2 class with access to the cleric list to maintain its supremacy against CR-appropriate encounters of all kinds."

I thought you were a better sport than being bitter about full casters in a game so obviously lopsided towards spells. But alas, my rebuttal: My problem is not with Divine Protection now being nerfed. My problem is that Divine Protection is now a "never-pick" for me. And I dislike having feats on my list that I would have never picked. Even Toughness would be a more preferred pick due to the simplicity of its usage (add once, then forget) and the fitting nature of giving a hardened northerner more hit points than her frail body would otherwise allow.

The character focusses on buff spells (and some few blasts that appear on the oracle spell list) and completely ignores her melee capability. She basically only works if the group is helping her and she helps the group. That, and my inherent dislike of "once per day" feats or class features.

[Kurald Galain]

I think a feat that gives +1 to all saves would be fine (possibly a bit weak) and on the level with e.g. Lightning Reflexes.

The feat DP as originally printed is way too powerful, the feat as errata'ed is pointlessly weak.

[georgie_leech]

I think a feat that gives +1 to all saves would be fine (possibly a bit weak) and on the level with e.g. Lightning Reflexes.

The feat DP as originally printed is way too powerful, the feat as errata'ed is pointlessly weak.

Suppose instead it was 1/encounter, even if that is a little unusual with most PF design choices. How would you judge it then?

[Psyren]

I thought you were a better sport than being bitter about full casters in a game so obviously lopsided towards spells. But alas, my rebuttal: My problem is not with Divine Protection now being nerfed. My problem is that Divine Protection is now a "never-pick" for me. And I dislike having feats on my list that I would have never picked. Even Toughness would be a more preferred pick due to the simplicity of its usage (add once, then forget) and the fitting nature of giving a hardened northerner more hit points than her frail body would otherwise allow.

The character focusses on buff spells (and some few blasts that appear on the oracle spell list) and completely ignores her melee capability. She basically only works if the group is helping her and she helps the group. That, and my inherent dislike of "once per day" feats or class features.

Retraining is a thing.

And no, I'm not "bitter" about anything. The game is plenty mutable. Keep the old one if you like, and if not allowed to, retrain it, and if not, you're still a T2 caster, one dead feat is not going to appreciably harm your effectiveness. Though hopefully your GM is not a meanie-poo and will go with one of the first two.


I think a feat that gives +1 to all saves would be fine (possibly a bit weak) and on the level with e.g. Lightning Reflexes.

The feat DP as originally printed is way too powerful, the feat as errata'ed is pointlessly weak.

If it was dropped to this level I would remove the Know Religion requirement, as now it's on par with Luck of Heroes. Maybe +2 to all saves if you keep the divine fluff.

[Arbane]

Great. Now after I have asked my DM to accept the Divine Protection feat for my oracle (as it is defensive and my oracle is often the thing standing between our group and a TPK) I now either have to ask him to swap that feat out or have him have a happy grin as I have to keep the feat as written now.

You could just ask him if you can use the pre-nerf version. If it's not a PFS game, it's up to the GM. (I just heard back from my GM, and he's OK with it, as my Oracle is not exactly a game-breaker.)

[Pex]

My group likes to be official. We have our house rules and grandfathered in one player's pre-Unchained Summoner with all future Summoners being Unchained since it is generally agreed Summoner needed nerfing. However, we'll stick to official stuff as possible. My Dark Tapestry Oracle took Divine Protection. When it was changed I was allowed to change my feat choice. No big deal. I changed it to Silent Spell as it was my next feat anyway to be able to cast while polymorphed from a Revelation.

It's fine if a DM grandfathers in the original. It's fine if a DM just let's the player change the feat choice to one he could have taken at that time. It's uncalled for to force the player to keep it if he doesn't want the changed version. He did nothing wrong. The DM allowed the original feat in the first place. It's Paizo who forced the change. The player does not deserve to be punished for it for the audacity of playing an oracle, tier system be darned.

[Spore]

You could just ask him if you can use the pre-nerf version. If it's not a PFS game, it's up to the GM. (I just heard back from my GM, and he's OK with it, as my Oracle is not exactly a game-breaker.)

Yeah. Then again, he explicitly stated his frustation that he can't hit me with any status anymore. I guess this is DM frustration. He accepts high AC, good saves and well placed spell counters as good building and smart play but deep inside he is heavily frustrated when his encounters are practically walked through.

Which isn't true by the way since my main concerns in combat are:
1) How do I get the barbarian to survive? (AC 16, reckless behaviour)
2) Is the Rogue really hidden well? He isn't and firing pot shots again, is he? He is gonna be eaten! (Aww, he thinks he is an Arcane Archer with his BAB of +7 on 12th level)
3) The Con 10 witch is very close to melee combat, AGAIN. (she wants to get the 5 HD minions to sleep with her aura spell, with the amazing protection of a single Aid spell with 5 extra HP rolled!)
4) We have an evil priestess in our ranks. One wrong turn and I am under a Dominate Person spell. (she basically just summons her fiends upon the battlefield and waits. She has ample opportunity to strike and I don't trust her)

Honestly, most metamagic is more useful to me than Divine Protection. But I like being ONE guy (or gal for that matter) that hasn't got glaring weaknesses in his saves. I would be happier with a bonus of CHA/2 or CHA/3, I really would. Because pre errata DP blows anything comparable out of the water.