What would a Devil want in exchange for immortality and eternal youth?

[RoboEmperor]

It would probably have to be a Pit Fiend's once-a-year wish to accomplish this task, so... what would a Pit Fiend want in exchange for granting immortality and eternal youth?

I'm putting together a somewhat super complicated campaign and I want one of the PCs to be forced by some authority figure to accept this deal "willingly". Please don't let this little fact affect your answer though, making the PC play-able is my job.

[frogglesmash]

I'm sure that something along the lines of "your soul," or "the soul of your first born" is a pretty standard price for this sort of deal.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, the devil is locking a soul out of Hell unless that character is unlucky enough to be murdered. So they'll want to make use of the soul while they're still living. Have the fiend request "only the occasional favor" in return for immortality and eternal youth, and then pop in every now and then to give the PC some difficult task that the pit fiend cannot themselves do for some reason or another.

That is, of course, in addition to the standard claiming of the pact-maker's soul by Hell (and specifically by the pit fiend who granted the wish) when they finally get killed by one of the things the pit fiend asks them to take care of.

[frogglesmash]

Well, the devil is locking a soul out of Hell unless that character is unlucky enough to be murdered. So they'll want to make use of the soul while they're still living. Have the fiend request "only the occasional favor" in return for immortality and eternal youth, and then pop in every now and then to give the PC some difficult task that the pit fiend cannot themselves do for some reason or another.

Basically they will own you one way or another.

[Angelmaker]

I'd think something along the lines of the soul of other good aligned people sacrificed in a ritual. Once you do that you are basically evil aligned and they own your soul more or less anyway. A two for one deal.

[Feddlefew]

Pit Fiends are clever; a good choice is to have the Pit Fiend set up the price as a trap to get the authority figure under the Pit Fiend (Let's call him Bob)'s thumb, and thus the asking price should be cringe inducing but not horrible.

-Permanently link the PC to Bob in such a way that Bob can share the PC's senses. Bonus points for the PC being the party face and/or Bob getting to commentate.

-PC serves Bob after their natural lifespan would have elapsed, assuming the immortality is for the PC. Bob begins cultivating Stockholm Syndrome by generally being friendly and sympathetic towards the PC's plight, aids party, nudges PC and party towards world domination.

-If the deal is for the authority figure to gain immortality and eternal youth, Bob could empower PC and party in the same way and send them on an eternal quest to capture and bring him the authority figure. If the immortality is for the PC, then the price could be the authority figure, associates (excluding party), and descendents' souls.

[NichG]

A slight variant of the Planescape: Torment answer is 'There are many people who would have died, or never even lived, if not for you. With this deal, I shall gain the power such that whenever this wish saves your life, I may revoke one of their lives in exchange.'

[Oberon Kenobi]

Good answers so far, but
I'm putting together a somewhat super complicated campaign and I want one of the PCs to be forced by some authority figure to accept this deal "willingly". Please don't let this little fact affect your answer though, making the PC play-able is my job.Don't do that. It's not a matter of the PC being 'playable,' it's a matter of the implicit contract between GM and player. You get to control virtually everything already, including well over 99% of your game world's population. You even get to control what happens to the PCs. That is your job. What you don't get to control, if you're doing your job right, is the decisions of your PCs. Forcing them into a corner where by some contrived circumstances they have to sell their soul to a Pit Fiend? That's taking their agency away. That's making a decision for them.

It's a p'tak move. Don't do it.

[RoboEmperor]

Good answers so far, butDon't do that. It's not a matter of the PC being 'playable,' it's a matter of the implicit contract between GM and player. You get to control virtually everything already, including well over 99% of your game world's population. You even get to control what happens to the PCs. That is your job. What you don't get to control, if you're doing your job right, is the decisions of your PCs. Forcing them into a corner where by some contrived circumstances they have to sell their soul to a Pit Fiend? That's taking their agency away. That's making a decision for them.

It's a p'tak move. Don't do it.

Don't worry about that stuff. The players know what they're getting into (they asked me to do this so...).

I just control the backstories so they fit into this game I'm designing. Players will have like 50% control of the backstories and 100% control in-game.

Anyways back to the question at hand, I like the idea of the Pit Fiend "tricking" the characters in question. Kind of like "Pay me in grains of rice. Give me one on the first day, two on the second day, four on the third day, etc.." People who hears this would be like "Wow this guy is cheap!" only to be bankrupt by day 20.

That was a nice piece of advice about lawful evil souls ending up in hell. So what would be a nice subtle price that doesn't seem like much but would most definitely lock the guy's alignment into lawful evil? The PC is the victim, and the authority figure is an arrogant person who thinks he can best the Devil.

I was thinking in the line of:
1. Authority figure wants immortality and eternal youth
2. Authority figure doesn't want to end up in hell if he should die.
3. Authority figure's genius idea was make his son/daughter make a deal with the devil to make them both immortal and young. That way if he should die he won't end up in hell (we all know this is wrong XD).

[the_david]

Pathfinder rules that a Contract Devil (Phistophilus) can give 3 wishes in return for one soul. You can get your soul back by having someone else give up his or her soul for you, though the person that gives up his or her soul doesn't have that option. You can't raise someone who has sold his soul. You could also destroy both copies of the contract, but that would involve a trip to hell and back.
Obviously, the soul that is to be sacrificed in return for your soul should be purer than yours, and you still get a one-way trip to the lower planes for dealing with a devil and giving someone else a one-way trip to hell.

Now the thing is that even if your character would wish for immortality and eternal youth. (2 wishes) he could still die of some freak accident, so you could send in a bunch of devils to kill him. I wouldn't trust a devil if I'd had to give up my soul for immortality though.

In one game, I let a tiefling find out her mother went to hell for selling her soul to a Contract Devil so she could have a child. (Yes, that would be the tiefling.) she wanted to trade her soul for her mother, but the Contract Devil refused because he thought her soul was worth less than that of her mother. She agreed that she would perform 3 tasks in return for her mothers soul.
So I'd say that 1 wish would be worth 1 task a devil wouldn't want to do.

You can find the 3.5 version of the Contract Devil in Crown of Fangs, part 12 of the adventure path series. The Pathfinder version can be found in Bestiary 3.

[Eldan]

How about a non-soul suggestion.

One of the problems that the fiends face is that they can not access the prime material world directly. They need to be summoned. So how about a contract like this:

"In exchange four immortality and youth, you will agree to call or summon, once a month, a devil of my choosing. You will let that devil roam freely for 24 hours, without giving them any orders."

[Oberon Kenobi]

Don't worry about that stuff. The players know what they're getting into (they asked me to do this so...).Oh! Well that's different then. My apologies for assuming; hope you have fun. :smallredface:


"In exchange four immortality and youth, you will agree to call or summon, once a month, a devil of my choosing. You will let that devil roam freely for 24 hours, without giving them any orders."I really like that. Doesn't cost the PC their soul, directly generates some enemies to work with and gives them a chance to try and undermine the contract like any deal-makin' PC will probably want to.

"Hey, I said I'd let them roam freely. Not my fault my Paladin friend just happened to be right where they were gonna do their roaming. Twice. In a row."

[NichG]

If this is written into a backstory, then IMO its best to assume that neither the PC nor the devil is stupid or easily tricked. Otherwise there's a sort of dissonance of 'why exactly would my character have fallen for that/why exactly would the emperor have fallen for something that one of his advisors should have caught/why exactly would this master of contracts have missed that trivial loophole that took me a quarter of the first session to catch?'

To put it another way, the best and most sublime deals are the ones in which everyone feels like they got what they wanted and are satisfied. For a devil, they don't need to directly screw over the person they made the contract with (and in fact, its better if they don't, since that means that more mortals will feel like making devil contracts is a good idea in the future). But if the consequences are terrible for lots of offscreen innocents, the devil gets his due.

[Eldan]

Oh! Well that's different then. My apologies for assuming; hope you have fun. :smallredface:

I really like that. Doesn't cost the PC their soul, directly generates some enemies to work with and gives them a chance to try and undermine the contract like any deal-makin' PC will probably want to.

"Hey, I said I'd let them roam freely. Not my fault my Paladin friend just happened to be right where they were gonna do their roaming. Twice. In a row."

Of course, after the first time, the devil would start sending his own enemies.

[Telonius]

How about a non-soul suggestion.

One of the problems that the fiends face is that they can not access the prime material world directly. They need to be summoned. So how about a contract like this:

"In exchange four immortality and youth, you will agree to call or summon, once a month, a devil of my choosing. You will let that devil roam freely for 24 hours, without giving them any orders."

I like this one a lot. Really, really sneaky. It doesn't specifically have anything to do with his soul to start out with. "Don't worry, you aren't signing over your soul. Signing this agreement does not condemn you to Baator." Because it doesn't: holding up his end of the bargain is what condemns him. Casting an [Evil] summoning spell is an Evil action, and upholding a contract is Lawful. If he does those consistently, he'll be Lawful Evil when he dies.

[Grollub]

I think i would go with "you gain 'eternal youth and immortality' in exchange for souls at X interval to 'fuel the contract'"

as soon as the person signs their soul is resigned to hell... if they die to unnatural causes baam.. pit fiend has them... as well.. you get the person to send you more souls via the "fuel" agreement.

for added bonus points.. add in a "pure souls" to that... aka non evil peoples..:smallcool:

[(Un)Inspired]

Can wish grant immortality and eternal youth?

I'm inclined to believe that it cannot.

[Eldan]

I like this one a lot. Really, really sneaky. It doesn't specifically have anything to do with his soul to start out with. "Don't worry, you aren't signing over your soul. Signing this agreement does not condemn you to Baator." Because it doesn't: holding up his end of the bargain is what condemns him. Casting an [Evil] summoning spell is an Evil action, and upholding a contract is Lawful. If he does those consistently, he'll be Lawful Evil when he dies.

That's just a bonus. I'm mainly thinking of how much damage a devil a month could do when summoned by an immortal for the next thousand years.

[Feddlefew]

Can wish grant immortality and eternal youth?

I'm inclined to believe that it cannot.

By changing a creature's types it can.

[RoboEmperor]

To put it another way, the best and most sublime deals are the ones in which everyone feels like they got what they wanted and are satisfied. For a devil, they don't need to directly screw over the person they made the contract with (and in fact, its better if they don't, since that means that more mortals will feel like making devil contracts is a good idea in the future). But if the consequences are terrible for lots of offscreen innocents, the devil gets his due.

I agree :). This is the type of deal I'm looking for.

I don't like once a month forever deal, but I think a one-time "summon a devil of my choosing" is more than enough. Could be a devil with some sort of mind-affecting spell that charms/dominates the authority figure into summoning more devils.


Can wish grant immortality and eternal youth?

I'm inclined to believe that it cannot.

Wish can do anything you want as long as DM allows it. But for nit-picky rule lawyers (like myself XD) simply changing the creature type to outsider should grant both immortality and eternal youth because true outsiders (not native) don't age or grow old.

[BWR]

To steal a page from Hellblazer (and probably other sources), not just a soul or your soul but multiple souls. Every soul you give the devil (which must be babies less than a year old) buys you another couple of years. Of course, when , excuse me, 'if' (*grin*) you die you will also belong to the devil. And it's not so much the souls themselves that fiends are interested in. Evil people die all the time and you can pick them up all over the place if you want. It's the effect on the living that is fun. It's the suffering and change of life for the worse amongst those affected by the contractee. It is the proof that metaphysically people acknowledge your philosophy as the right, most powerful one.

[Threadnaught]

It would probably have to be a Pit Fiend's once-a-year wish to accomplish this task, so... what would a Pit Fiend want in exchange for granting immortality and eternal youth?

I'm putting together a somewhat super complicated campaign and I want one of the PCs to be forced by some authority figure to accept this deal "willingly". Please don't let this little fact affect your answer though, making the PC play-able is my job.

The soul of an innocent (non-Evil character) per HD, per Wish.

It's playable, but I don't think many players would want to play it. At higher levels, they must sacrifice more and more innocents to the lower planes. It's fine at level 1, they murder one person per year in a ritualistic sacrifice to call the Pit Fiend and as long as they move around, there's no problem. At 20th level, they must sacrifice 20HD of poor schmucks, none of which can be going to the lower planes anyway through their own actions.


This reasonable?

[Vogie]

How about a non-soul suggestion.

One of the problems that the fiends face is that they can not access the prime material world directly. They need to be summoned. So how about a contract like this:

"In exchange four immortality and youth, you will agree to call or summon, once a month, a devil of my choosing. You will let that devil roam freely for 24 hours, without giving them any orders."

Or even, the Pit Fiend could take control of the contractee at a moment of the Pit Fiend's discretion for X period of time (minutes, hours) every Y period of time (days, weeks, moon cycles).

Another idea is the the Pit Fiend wants to get rid of several artifacts/individuals, and the contractee only gains eternal youth for a set period of time (years). If those artifacts/individuals are removed within that period of time, then the contractee gains immortality.

[Yukitsu]

"Hohoho, immortality and eternal youth? My friend, you think too small. What worth is an eternal life without power. I have eternal life. I have eternally the vitality of youth. But so does a lemur, a wretch, a pitiful worm. You came to me not because I'm immortal and eternal. No, you came to me because I am powerful, grand enough even to grant your very wishes. Sure, I could make you into that pitiful, eternal worm, if you want. Or I could do you one better. All I need in return is a token effort, a little work from you. During your long, and soon to be very prosperous life you will meet with many of those who run into problems. If you bring them to me, I'll listen to them and if they want I can help. That doesn't sound bad does it? And as long as you keep bringing them to me, I can keep you young and beautiful and powerful."

[BowStreetRunner]

All contracts with Devils must have loopholes in order to be believably authentic. Said loopholes must exist upon both sides of the agreement. Thus the greedy and incautious recipient of the deal is always in a position to doom himself through his shortsightedness while the powers of good always have some way to come and redeem a worthy soul. At least that's my take on the trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil).

[dancrilis]

I think that one of the things that you might want to include is the clause for failing to complete the PC end of the bargain - the immortality gets revoked? not a great cost for the PC, free possession rights for the fiend kindof more costly.

Once the clause for non-complience is estiblished the Fiend can safely have a low enought price - soul when you die per standard terms and conditions and one week of dutiful service every year.

This allows the fiend to have a mortal agent once a year and likely eventually an immortal possession receptacle should they refuse to perform their duties - at this point the Fiend can play to the mortals alignment/personality as needed (i.e to access areas that only a good person can access to preform what the PC considers minor acts).

[Bad Wolf]

Well if the PC has a kid (in-game of course), have the pit fiend demand the firstborn child's soul of every generation, as long as their line should last.

[atemu1234]

Can wish grant immortality and eternal youth?

I'm inclined to believe that it cannot.

Why not? It's worth less than a +1 to an ability score in most games.

[Oberon Kenobi]

"Hohoho, immortality and eternal youth? My friend, you think too small. What worth is an eternal life without power. I have eternal life. I have eternally the vitality of youth. But so does a lemur, a wretch, a pitiful worm. You came to me not because I'm immortal and eternal. No, you came to me because I am powerful, grand enough even to grant your very wishes. Sure, I could make you into that pitiful, eternal worm, if you want. Or I could do you one better. All I need in return is a token effort, a little work from you. During your long, and soon to be very prosperous life you will meet with many of those who run into problems. If you bring them to me, I'll listen to them and if they want I can help. That doesn't sound bad does it? And as long as you keep bringing them to me, I can keep you young and beautiful and powerful."Did... did you just turn eternal damnation into a pyramid scheme? Well played. :smallamused:

[Sagetim]

It would probably have to be a Pit Fiend's once-a-year wish to accomplish this task, so... what would a Pit Fiend want in exchange for granting immortality and eternal youth?

I'm putting together a somewhat super complicated campaign and I want one of the PCs to be forced by some authority figure to accept this deal "willingly". Please don't let this little fact affect your answer though, making the PC play-able is my job.

Oh, more than just thier soul. The soul of everyone of their decendants as sworn warlocks to that pit fiend's command. And a requirement to father as many bastards as possible in the next 20 years. And a modification to the immortality so that he knows when the last of his decendants has been killed, which would trigger another 20 years of service as a bastard breeding stud to swell the ranks of the pit fiend's warlock minions once more. And a clause that if the character gets imprisoned or what have you, the pit fiend will send someone to cast freedom/flesh to stone/etc on them. And each time this clause is invoked that's another 10 years as a breeding stud to put as many bastards out in the world as possible. Spread far and wide. And a curse or something tied to the immortality that prevents contraceptives.

See, this is the kind of plan that relies on the long term nature of immortality. After all, if the person is forever young and unkillable, then 20 years here and 10 years there isn't generally going to be much of a problem. And the plan only benefits if the character becomes king, because it would mean that many more royal bastards floating around who are never going to become king because the king will never die. Of course, it also means the kingdom they're ruling is going to have problems conducting diplomacy with other kingdoms. It doesn't help you forge an alliance if the children of said marriage have no chance to rule.

Anyway this is a Pit Fiend, so it's going to be lawful evil. It's going to be thinking long term plans with both short and long term benefits. It's going to tie the immortality to it's own existence, which means it will be in the player's best interest for the pit fiend not to be permanently slain.


If you want something simpler, then requiring the player to kill a certain number of people each year and to dedicate their deaths (and thus their souls) to the pit fiend seems like a simple place to start. Make it as simple as the character whispering the pit fiends name right before, during, or after landing a killing blow on something and you could set it at 50 evil souls per year. Neutral souls count for double, and Good souls count for five times. The consequence of not doing it would be simple: the player is dragged bodily to hell naked and dispelled. Whereupon their soul is forfeit, the immortality and eternal youth revoked, and their torture commences.

[Feddlefew]

*SNIP*

The PC isn't the one getting immortality, though. But since we're already on this topic, there's more than one way to interpret "I want your firstborn". In a comedic campaign, I might play this as the PC getting random, inconvenient booty calls via sending and being interrupted by the sudden appearance of 2d4 devils every time they come close to getting it on with someone who isn't the pit fiend.

[Yukitsu]

Did... did you just turn eternal damnation into a pyramid scheme? Well played. :smallamused:

Not just a pyramid scheme, it's one where he never technically has to go to hell, but since he's evil, if he ever stops, grows old and dies, even though I never asked for his soul, hell gets it. Maybe one year he doesn't find anyone that needs help. Maybe he gets a bit desperate. He doesn't want to die, go to hell after all. Maybe he ruins someone's life using his influence and wealth. Maybe he charitably comes to that now unfortunate man offering him help, a deal so good he can't refuse.

[Runestar]

Can wish grant immortality and eternal youth?

I'm inclined to believe that it cannot.

There's tons of fluff in various printed material about wish being to used to extend one's lifespan (and its efficacy somehow being tied to one's own natural lifespan leads me to suspect it simply replicates the extended lifespan epic feat). Never to grant immortality, though I don't see anything gamebreakinig in allowing it, since it has practically zero impact on game balance.

It does make embracing lichdom seem really stupid though.

[Sagetim]

There's tons of fluff in various printed material about wish being to used to extend one's lifespan (and its efficacy somehow being tied to one's own natural lifespan leads me to suspect it simply replicates the extended lifespan epic feat). Never to grant immortality, though I don't see anything gamebreakinig in allowing it, since it has practically zero impact on game balance.

It does make embracing lichdom seem really stupid though.

I think you and I might be interpreting Immortality differently. When I think Immortality I think Garlic Jr. from DBZ. I know he was a crap villain, but he was immartal (oh yeah, and Misfits). You could blow holes in him and he would fill back in good as new, didn't age, etc. When I read immortality I think 'cannot be killed'.

If you just want no maximum age limit and eternal youth then go for Elan as your base race and import a pathfinder spell called Greater Age Resistance (6th level wizard, witch, something something as I recall). And maybe add in it's 1st level counterpart 'Youthful Appearance'.

[Rockphed]

There's tons of fluff in various printed material about wish being to used to extend one's lifespan (and its efficacy somehow being tied to one's own natural lifespan leads me to suspect it simply replicates the extended lifespan epic feat). Never to grant immortality, though I don't see anything gamebreakinig in allowing it, since it has practically zero impact on game balance.

It does make embracing lichdom seem really stupid though.

I think allowing a Pit Fiend or Solar the ability to arbitrarily extend a person's youth and lifespan does not directly conflict with a magic wielder hiding their soul in a box to attain immortality and increased durability.

The best option I have seen is either "summon a creature of my choice at a time and place of my choosing" or "give me willing and faithful service on a regular basis, nothing onerous really. You won't even have to kill anyone. Just taking a trinket where I ask or going somewhere and reporting what you heard or saw will be enough. Occasionally I might ask you to put down a rebellious subordinate who has escaped to the material world. Nothing major at all."

[Runestar]

I think you and I might be interpreting Immortality differently. When I think Immortality I think Garlic Jr. from DBZ. I know he was a crap villain, but he was immartal (oh yeah, and Misfits). You could blow holes in him and he would fill back in good as new, didn't age, etc. When I read immortality I think 'cannot be killed'.

If you just want no maximum age limit and eternal youth then go for Elan as your base race and import a pathfinder spell called Greater Age Resistance (6th level wizard, witch, something something as I recall). And maybe add in it's 1st level counterpart 'Youthful Appearance'.

Won't that just cause wish to just backfire, like trap you in stasis underground? Think that was mentioned as one of the ways the spell could misfire if you tried to abuse it.

[DMVerdandi]

How about a year of service every 100 years.
Someone who is immortal will acquire a large amount of skills if they use them, and those skills could be very useful to the devil.

For example, luring in other potential contract holders.
Scouting out potential places and persons of interest without setting off obvious DND traps to alert anyone of any shenanigans.

Essentially the kind of work that a cleric(but not necessarily a cleric) would be tasked with. Working as the mortal agent for outsiders.

If one contractor finds another, and then they both find one more, and all four of them find one more, exponentially, 100 will be found, so then they have a revolving organization working for a demon, each having a 99 year vacation before they have to go back to work.

[Sagetim]

Won't that just cause wish to just backfire, like trap you in stasis underground? Think that was mentioned as one of the ways the spell could misfire if you tried to abuse it.


Well, I figured this thread was operating under the assumption that the person asking was the DM and could rule that this particular wish is going to work right, so what should potential costs or consequences be.

I have to toss my vote in for 'summon a demon/devil of my choosing once every blue moon and let it do whatever for 24 hours'. Or, if you have a truenamer with fiendbinder levels involved: "Research the truename of a demon I tell you to and bind him/her once per year. Negotiations can be made for funding if you cannot raise the necessary funds."

Now, Why would you do this? Because when a fiend that is bound through that prestige class dies, it dies forever. It doesn't regenerate in hell later, it's just dead. This would basically be hiring the truenamer out to bind fiends and kill them or get them killed. And one of the things protecting the Pit Fiend from similar treatment is the limited nature of the fiendbinder's list. The most potent thing it can bind is less than Balor/Pit Fiend.

[Eldan]

Or even, the Pit Fiend could take control of the contractee at a moment of the Pit Fiend's discretion for X period of time (minutes, hours) every Y period of time (days, weeks, moon cycles).

Another idea is the the Pit Fiend wants to get rid of several artifacts/individuals, and the contractee only gains eternal youth for a set period of time (years). If those artifacts/individuals are removed within that period of time, then the contractee gains immortality.

I was thinking that as I suggested it, there's no direct downside to the contract signer, so they have less motivation to break the contract. Being controlled would be a rather strong incentive to get out as soon as possible.

Really, I think in most cases, there is no need for a pit fiend to rig the contract. It can be mutually beneficial and still evil.

Think of it as PR for hell. If everyone knows that every contract with Hell ends in disaster and trickery, only the weak, desperate and foolish will sign them. Hell is willing to take the desperate, but most of all, they will want the strong and the ambitious.

[Nifft]

It does make embracing lichdom seem really stupid though.

True Mindswitch did that already.

Pick something immortal and you don't even need to do it again.

(Plot hook: all the Aboleths in the world are actually just high-level human Psions who are merely pretending to be Aboleths because they're afraid of being found out by the other Aboleths, who are of course also just humans.)

[Threadnaught]

(Plot hook: all the Aboleths in the world are actually just high-level human Psions who are merely pretending to be Aboleths because they're afraid of being found out by the other Aboleths, who are of course also just humans.)

Because of how an Aboleths mind and physiology work, the Aboleths in Human bodies go mad and die/twist their bodies into Pseudonatural Humans.

The Human minds in the Aboleth bodies, thanks to the way Aboleth brains work, simply become additional memories as the Aboleth mind exerts complete control.
The exact same thing happened the last time a horde of Pseudonatural Creatures went on a rampage through the Prime Material.

[Slithery D]

True Mindswitch did that already.

Pick something immortal and you don't even need to do it again.

(Plot hook: all the Aboleths in the world are actually just high-level human Psions who are merely pretending to be Aboleths because they're afraid of being found out by the other Aboleths, who are of course also just humans.)

One nice detail of Major Mind Swap in Pathfinder's Occult Adventures is that it requires a target of your same race, so no permanent body type upgrades. They've got an artifact-level "Portrait of Dorian Gray" equiv if you need to stop aging.

[frogglesmash]

Because of how an Aboleths mind and physiology work, the Aboleths in Human bodies go mad and die/twist their bodies into Pseudonatural Humans.

The Human minds in the Aboleth bodies, thanks to the way Aboleth brains work, simply become additional memories as the Aboleth mind exerts complete control.
The exact same thing happened the last time a horde of Pseudonatural Creatures went on a rampage through the Prime Material.

Where are you getting this information from? It sounds really interesting and I want more.

[Segev]

Where are you getting this information from? It sounds really interesting and I want more.

It sounds like DM-fiat setting-material designed to a) create plot, b) stop players from doing this, or c) both.

[Threadnaught]

Where are you getting this information from? It sounds really interesting and I want more.

Aboleths have a perfect memory and are still completely alien to the world, despite it forming around them.

It's Niffts plot hook, but expanded.


Another Aberration gone wrong story is the Beholder Mage which is just a mutant Beholder that began eating the magical energy of the world. Once it knows all the Spells, it will have feasted on the whole worlds magical energy and everything that requires magic to exist will decay, while stuff that requires magic to function will cease completely.
It may be used as part of a ritual to create a new god, to create a new world, or to destroy everything, if it is sacrificed as part of a special ritual. Alternatively, killing it destroys the area within a 10 mile radius, while releasing all absorbed magical energy back into the world. Either way, the Beholder Mage wouldn't want to die.
A Beholder Mage must learn a new Spell every 1d4 days or begin taking Wisdom Damage, which is why most that have existed were quickly slain before they could do too much damage. Every time the Dragons forget, one of them nearly destroys the world again.


Illithids came into existence when a Truenamer attempted the True Mind Switch with an Aboleth in ages past. The Truenamer had studied history and knew the risks of becoming an Aboleth, but knew they could Unname themselves to protect themselves from destruction, what they didn't take into account was how an Aboleths existence distorts reality to the point where they merely changed their own name to be that of the Aboleth and the Aboleths to be their own. This had two effects.
First was for the body of the Aboleth with the Truenamers mind, to transform, the brain of the Aboleth grew more human-like and began to grow outside of the Aboleth body and to grow in size, the body of the Aboleth was torn apart by the growth of the brain, which became an entity of its own. Retaining the Truenamers personality, the brain hungered for knowledge and to grant all other Humans the ability to ascend to a new and superior form of existence, as an Elder Brain. Each Illithid commanded by the Elder Brain added their consciousness to the collective minds within the Elder Brain, causing the Truenamer to be forgotten by everyone.
The second effect Unnaming had on the duo, was on the Aboleth mind in the Human body and the body itself. The Aboleth did something no Aboleth had ever done before, it forgot, this combined with the alien body the creature had found itself in gave the Aboleth a new hunger, a need to feast upon the minds of Humans. It quickly began to expand the race beyond the first Elder Brain and Mind Flayer and having learned of the effect their existence had on Aboleths as a whole, they made up a false story about their origins as a way to more easily expand their new empire.
The Aboleths of course, were horrified by what had happened. In the past, they would always reassert themselves and never truly die as long as their body was intact, but this time a Human had destroyed the mind of an Aboleth. It was so terrifying to them, they erased the event from history so they would no longer know, because through knowing fear of mortality an Aboleth will transform into an abomination even darker than an Elder Brain.


Not sure how to make Illithid Savant scary for optimizers yet, but I'll try. I hope this spin on everyone's favourite Aberrations is scary enough to cause nightmares.

[Nifft]

Because of how an Aboleths mind and physiology work, the Aboleths in Human bodies go mad and die/twist their bodies into Pseudonatural Humans. But there haven't been any Aboleth minds in Aboleth bodies for over a thousand years.

Pesky greedy humans.


The Human minds in the Aboleth bodies, thanks to the way Aboleth brains work, simply become additional memories as the Aboleth mind exerts complete control.

Er. You recall that the Aboleth mind had been removed from the body, right? That's the entire premise, and it's also what your own first sentence discussed, so I feel like you ought to be aware of it.

There's no Aboleth mind in the Aboleth body to "exert control".

It got swapped.

(Long ago.)

[Threadnaught]

Er. You recall that the Aboleth mind had been removed from the body, right? That's the entire premise, and it's also what your own first sentence discussed, so I feel like you ought to be aware of it.

There's no Aboleth mind in the Aboleth body to "exert control".

Mind =/= Brain.

In a world where body hopping is possible, the Mind is separate from a Brain. Even a Brainless Statue or Skeleton can have a Mind in D&D.
So yes, it could work that way. Not does, could, because that's better.

[Segev]

Mind =/= Brain.

In a world where body hopping is possible, the Mind is separate from a Brain. Even a Brainless Statue or Skeleton can have a Mind in D&D.
So yes, it could work that way. Not does, could, because that's better.

The brain being separate from the mind doesn't mean that there's still a mind in that brain when the mind is swapped out.

Now, the Aboleth BRAIN could cause the human MIND to have alien thoughts that start to divorce him from his old moral code, etc. But there's not "Aboleth Mind" in there to exert control. The human mind is just afflicted with a sort of alignment-shifting curse, at best, here.

[Nifft]

Mind =/= Brain. Yes, that's correct (in D&D), and that's why what you said before didn't make sense.


In a world where body hopping is possible, the Mind is separate from a Brain. Even a Brainless Statue or Skeleton can have a Mind in D&D.
So yes, it could work that way. Not does, could, because that's better. I have no idea if you're trying to support your original position, or a new position.

[Threadnaught]

I have no idea if you're trying to support your original position, or a new position.

I find both interesting. Yours is an especially interesting starting point, while mine is merely an attempt to build a world using Human Minds in Aboleths as the basic principle.


The brain being separate from the mind doesn't mean that there's still a mind in that brain when the mind is swapped out.

The original Aboleth mind is removed completely and transferred into the Human body.
In one version of the story, that's it, the story carries on with the now immortal Human mind inside an Aaboleth running things from behind the scenes.
In another version, the brain of the Aboleth warps the Mind of the Human so that only memories remain, while their personality is completely forgotten and replaced with what the Aboleth had before the switch.

Both are valid ways to further the settings overall plot.

[atemu1234]

True Mindswitch did that already.

Pick something immortal and you don't even need to do it again.

(Plot hook: all the Aboleths in the world are actually just high-level human Psions who are merely pretending to be Aboleths because they're afraid of being found out by the other Aboleths, who are of course also just humans.)

What if the Aboleths ARE Elan Psions who have transformed after living for far too long... Spell to Power Erudites used Travel Through Time and stayed in the past, producing Aboleths as we know them...