Magic Jar as a trap

[Agahnim]

Hi everyone,
I wanted to put a shadow demon in a dungeon room but it would be an easy TPK. Instead I decided to use a magic jar trap.
When the trap is triggered, one of the targets in range saves or gets trapped into the jar and a dummy "caster's soul" goes into the PC's body to attack the others.
The magic jar will be a bottle instead of a gem. When a PC's soul is inside, il fills up with a black liquid. To end the spell you have to force the possessed PC to drink his own soul back.
Now do you think they could guess the solution, or will they just happily kill each other ? What can of clues can I provide ? The bottle is in plain sight and transparent, so they can see it fill up as someone gets possessed.
Thanks in advance for the help !

[Aldrakan]

Now do you think they could guess the solution, or will they just happily kill each other ? What can of clues can I provide ? The bottle is in plain sight and transparent, so they can see it fill up as someone gets possessed.
Thanks in advance for the help !

Don't know your party, but I'd say they would probably try to avoid killing their party member, though they might try to knock him unconscious rather than spending time working out the trick while he's attacking them. They'd need him helpless to make him drink the potion anyway.

My main concern would be that they would smash the bottle instead of making him drink it; after all that's the way you would normally deal with a magic jar in that situation, that or dispelling it. Maybe it would help to show his soul being drawn out of him, drawn through the air into the bottle, which then corks itself? That might get across the message that there's something physical in there and emphasizes that it's a potion. Unless you make the bottle very hard to destroy I'd say there's still a major risk of them just smashing it though.

[ericgrau]

Hi everyone,
I wanted to put a shadow demon in a dungeon room but it would be an easy TPK. Instead I decided to use a magic jar trap.
When the trap is triggered, one of the targets in range saves or gets trapped into the jar and a dummy "caster's soul" goes into the PC's body to attack the others.
The magic jar will be a bottle instead of a gem. When a PC's soul is inside, il fills up with a black liquid. To end the spell you have to force the possessed PC to drink his own soul back.
Now do you think they could guess the solution, or will they just happily kill each other ? What can of clues can I provide ? The bottle is in plain sight and transparent, so they can see it fill up as someone gets possessed.
Thanks in advance for the help !
As a rule I say never make the PCs guess. The can't read your mind and will almost always see it as something else entirely.

Try an actual magic jar spell. Any time someone sees the gem or sees someone gets possessed you give any observers a DC 25 spellcraft check with this result on a success:
"It is a magic jar spell. The caster's soul in the gem can swap with a soul in range, which is about 100 feet or so depending on his level. Destroying the gem ends the spell, as does dispel magic, and all souls attempt to return to their original bodies. If a soul can't get to a body or gem within range when the spell ends or its body is destroyed, that creature dies. The soul does not need line of effect. So the caster's body might be near the gem. Protection from evil keeps the caster's soul from entering a body but it does not expel his soul."

If someone passes their will save, it is a DC 30 spellcraft to get the same information. Even on a passed save but a failed check they know something attacked their mind.

If you want to throw them a bone then on a DC 21 spellcraft check after seeing the gem and someone getting possessed you could say "Gems are sometimes used in spells".

If you want to increase the difficulty you could put extra gems in the room or hide the gems behind barriers.

I would try to make it a difficult fight assuming everyone fails their spellcraft checks, the worst case scenario. i.e. they should reasonably be able to subdue the PC and locate the gem within 1 or 2 rounds. So depending on party makeup, you may want to make a single gem in plain sight with the caster's body in the next room, in a coffin, under a sheet or otherwise not too far away. I'm not sure if an unconscious body should with a caster's soul in it should be allowed to soul swap or if it is also unconscious. Maybe making the soul "fall unconscious" too would be nicer and it makes sense. It's no different than the body falling unconscious with the original body. The most probably outcome is that the party either kills or knocks out their ally, then if they killed their ally the soul attempts to possess another PC. The soul might flee to the gem if it realizes they are trying to subdue the body rather than kill it. Before it gets knocked unconscious I mean. The party either flees out of range or try to smash the gem, or tosses the gem far away. Don't block their escape route unless a higher difficulty is really necessary btw. So absolute worst case scenario 1 or 2 PCs die, and ideally they roll over the encounter with ease. That's about what you want.

Again blocking the entrance to make escape more difficult, dummy gems, hiding the gem, and hiding the caster better are ONLY if you need to increase the difficulty. Likewise no special challenge should ever, ever, ever have only one single solution like you are proposing. They are unlikely to guess it nor should they be expected to guess it. You'll have a frustrating yet boring encounter where they either can do nothing and aren't having any fun, or they get super super lucky and guess right immediately without any fun or challenge. And when I say guess I mean guess; guessing a single solution you make up out of thin air isn't a clever puzzle where with lots of thinking they can piece it together, it's just guessing. And no, seeing a jar fill up isn't a real clue telling them they should or shouldn't drink it or should do something else to the jar with any amount of thinking or intelligence, unless your players can read your mind. Maybe they should smash it. Maybe they should hold it somewhere safe so they don't lose their friend, then brink it back to town to ask for help. There is no way to tell.

Notice how I gave 5+ solutions to beat the actual magic jar spell. And there could be more that I didn't even think of. And they are all things that a person might do, or even if they guess wrong they could figure out something else that also works. That's how a puzzle should be so that your players don't need psychic powers or extreme luck to win.

[Segev]

One way to help make sure they think "drink" rather than "smash" would be to have the magic jar be a chalice rather than a gem. Emphasize in your description any chance that the chalice might spill, too, and the players will become aware that this may not be a good thing. Because usually "smash" is the right answer to soul prisons. But a chalice with a liquid in it? That's obviously for drinking.

[Agahnim]

I like the chalice idea, especially since it will be found on a table.
Ericgrau : thanks for the advice about guesses. That's why I'm looking for clues and ways to turn this into a suitable puzzle. Unfortunately none of the PCs have any ranks in Spellcraft, although I might allow bardic knowledge, as well as a DC 30 search check as appropriate for a magic trap. I do not plan to hide the jar among others, although I had planned to lock the PCs inside that room. Please note that there is no caster in a coffin or anywhere, it is purely a trap. Therefore if a PC gets possessed there won't be a caster other than "the evil spirit that lives in the jar".
What do you think about the following clues :
When the PCs enter, the transparent chalice is filled with a black liquid. When someone is possessed, the black liquid disappears and a silvery liquid fills up the chalice. And when the jar decides to switch bodies, the PC who regains control of his body remembers only the sight of the bottom of a chandelier... Like the one that hangs above the chalice.
Do you think they can reasonably piece it together now ?

[ericgrau]

Mostly... but you should consider what happens if a player dumps the liquid out of the chalice. Or if someone other than the original soul owner drinks it. Perhaps the trapped player enters the drinker and the drinker's soul pops into the chalice. If the liquid is dumped, maybe it hops back into the chalice and the player remembers going on a roller coaster ride. The lock to the entrance door should not be invincible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering) nor unpickable.

Consider what to do if a possessed player is knocked unconscious. IMO the "caster" is stuck there, or he would try to switch back to the chalice before this happens.

The less railroading the better.

[Agahnim]

Excellent ideas. Don't worry about unbreakable doors, they will be blocked by grids which can be lifted using a crank, which is all part of another obstacle they will have to solve. That one won't have a set solution, I'll just sit back and let them find a way ;)

[Bucky]

The 3 paths rule applies here; you should provide 3 ways for the party to figure out how to break the spell. So far, you have 2:
1) The description of the effect says something comes out of the character and goes into the jar, common sense is that they can reverse the effect by putting that thing back in the character.
2) A Spellcraft check will tell them how to break the spell.

You should have one more hint, or some alternate way to break it (e.g. dispelling if they have access to it, or breaking the jar itself ends the spell for a different reason).

[KingSmitty]

I'm getting a whole, "You chose wisely" vibe out of this.

[Agahnim]

Does the standard search + disarm, if successfully done by the rogue, count as a third, preemptive solution ? Otherwise I don't have any other ideas yet... I don't want them to smash the chalice, it's too simple and defeats the point of the whole drinking thing...

[Crake]

speaking of shadow demons. It says that shadow demons use the magic jar spell to capture souls. How? I even went and looked at the 3.0 srd and couldn't find anything about using magic jar to capture souls?

[Agahnim]

Since the spell as a duration, that seems hard mechanically. Just treat it as a flavor text, or houserule it.

[SangoProduction]

and....what's the trapped player going to be doing during this time? Is he just supposed to go watch TV, while the rest of the team does the actual playing?

[Agahnim]

I don't know, do YOU go watch TV when your character is paralyzed, dazed, stunned, or even dead ?

[Red Fel]

I don't know, do YOU go watch TV when your character is paralyzed, dazed, stunned, or even dead ?

That's not the point. The point is what you don't do - and that's play the game. Worse, players whose characters are out of commission not only tend to get distracted, they may tend to be distracting.

I'm not saying don't kill your PCs, or don't use various save-or-suck effects. Use them, absolutely. But don't use them willy-nilly. To occasionally be hit by an effect that removes your PC from play - temporarily or permanently - is par for the course. To be constantly making saves is simply frustrating. To plan an event designed to remove at least one PC from play can strike some players as harsh. So be aware of that.

[SkipSandwich]

You know what could be really fun (if confusing)? What if the player whose body gets possessed could then attempt to themselves possess the other other players?

"I'm Bob!"

"No I'm Bob!"

"I thought you were Steve."

"No Steve is Eric, and Eric is Susan"

"$#!ing wizards..."

The rule being that you can swap with anyone except the person you last swapped with (no swapbacks!). Your players either figure out how to undo the swapping themselves, or else hand each other their character sheets and play that way until the duration expires and everyone auto sorts back to the correct body (long enough for hilarity to ensure, short enough to not be too annoying).

[SangoProduction]

I don't know, do YOU go watch TV when your character is paralyzed, dazed, stunned, or even dead ?

The first 3 are very temporary conditions, or are plot-movers. They don't completely take you out of the scene. You still get to play, at least, soon enough. Dead...roll up a new character. In most good encounters, you know you died because you did something stupid, and was ultimately your fault.
But trapped for at least an entire encounter, inside a gem or chalice or whatever, for failing a check? Well....that's boring. And in 3.5 where combat is already tedious? Is it really necessary? Just have an NPC get trapped in the chalice instead.

[Agahnim]

But trapped for at least an entire encounter, inside a gem or chalice or whatever, for failing a check? Well....that's boring
I beg to differ. By this logic, I should never use an effect that could incapacitate my players for more than a round ? I better stop giving them XP then, because I'm soon going to run out of useless level-appropriate spells and monster abilities !

An NPC, seriously ? Why not have an NPC open doors and fight monsters too ? Maybe there's some dangerous stuff in those dungeons, or worse, save-or-suck effects ! Besides I was planning on having the possession try to shift targets every 2d4 rounds, until they've all made a save or found the trick. That's a pretty short duration.
Consider a trap using any other level 5 trap. I'm sure I could find plenty of nastier stuff, including save-or-die spells or damage they couldn't withstand. If you don't have enough of an attention span to get interested in what happens to your character during the 2d4 rounds he's possessed, I'm very glad not to be DMing for you !

Edit : oh, and forgot to mention. The boss of the dungeon is an Immoth (of course they're OP, I nerfed it). It's got a nice paralyzing poison on every tail slap, 1d6+2 rounds with a higher save DC than the jar. Should I remove the poison or have an NPC be ready to eat the tail slaps for them ?

[SangoProduction]

But trapped for at least an entire encounter, inside a gem or chalice or whatever, for failing a check? Well....that's boring
I beg to differ. By this logic, I should never use an effect that could incapacitate my players for more than a round ? I better stop giving them XP then, because I'm soon going to run out of useless level-appropriate spells and monster abilities !

Either you're deliberately trying to misrepresent what is being said or...no...just: "at least an entire encounter" =/= "2 rounds" Simple enough.




An NPC, seriously ? Why not have an NPC open doors and fight monsters too ? Maybe there's some dangerous stuff in those dungeons, or worse, save-or-suck effects ! Besides I was planning on having the possession try to shift targets every 2d4 rounds, until they've all made a save or found the trick. That's a pretty short duration.
Consider a trap using any other level 5 trap. I'm sure I could find plenty of nastier stuff, including save-or-die spells or damage they couldn't withstand. If you don't have enough of an attention span to get interested in what happens to your character during the 2d4 rounds he's possessed, I'm very glad not to be DMing for you !

It's quite pointless talking to someone who can only think in personal attacks on someone, when I'm only talking about "this is probably not going to be fun for the players." Sorry for trying to be helpful and give you forewarning. Dumb ass. And you didn't mention the 2d4 rounds thing either. I hope I don't accidentally have you running my game. Have fun.

[Spore]

and....what's the trapped player going to be doing during this time? Is he just supposed to go watch TV, while the rest of the team does the actual playing?

That's my main pet peeve with that kind of trap. It is GREAT for an evening where said character isn't around to play. But otherwise you should give the affected player something to contribute.

And if it is something simple as a puzzle that gives him partial power over his prison once he solves it. Give him a chess problem or something similar and when he solves it the character can make the correct chalice blink or glow. He can communicate telepathically with anyone wielding the chalice and offer literal information from the inside.

That also prevents having the "knowledge guy" aka wizard being sucked into a magic jar spell trap and his bumbling companions headlessly running around because they don't know a lick of magic.

[Agahnim]

I still fail to understand your point. Take an illithid, for example. It can stun you with its mind blast. What's wrong with that ? Sometimes you get disabled, and you have to rely on your friends to save you. It's part of the game. It's not even frustrating.
You suggest that I target the trap on a player who's not present. That's assuming the magic jar is able to distinguish between its targets, but whatever, I'm not a RAW maniac. What if this temporary NPC makes the save ? I'm all out of 'valid' targets ! The trap might as well not even be there. And that's precisely the point : why did I choose magic jar rather than a summoning spell ? Because I wanted my players to face its specific effect.
As for these last suggestions : I'm not sure about them. Using a puzzle to allow a chance to get out seems unpractical because it would need to be done in under 2d4 rounds, and if the player succeeds he will have won the encounter on his own while the other players will feel useless. Besides it's not a maze spell : there is a save before the effect, not a chance to get out after the spell hits you.
As for the 'free telepathy' : not only would that be very hard to justify, it also seems useless : what kind of information could the trapped player provide ?
And please don't be so aggressive : you started it with your TV suggestion, and I'm still sincerely unconvinced by your arguments.

Edit: I have a new question. The spirit which takes possession of a PC with the jar will probably have that PC attack the others (without any special attacks, including Ex abilities). Just in case, what are the rules for trying to kill yourself with a weapon ? I suppose it's not treated as a coup de grâce - even if that was the rule, I'd houserule it onto something less dangerous. Is it still an automatic critical hit ? Is it restricted to light weapons ?

[ericgrau]

Yes there are many many D&D effects that disable you. And most of them do often make the game boring. On the player's turn you could provide what he sees verbally or via secret notes, to help keep him interested and thinking about a solution for when he pops back into his body.

If the jar is searched then search could potentially realize that the magic jar is a magic trap, because search can find that if you're a rogue. I don't think it could disable the trap nor give the solution. If the player asks to disable device say sorry, no, you don't see anything to disable because it's probably some kind of spell or other magical effect, would you like to do something else? You can ask someone to try to dispel (if anyone has that).

For attacking yourself I'd say you automatically hit and then roll damage normally. I suppose coup de grace should be possible too as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. That AoO could be used for damage, non-lethal damage, a grapple or a disarm to stop the coup de grace. And for the last 2 a caster's BAB is pretty bad. If that's too complicated, then maybe you should ignore coup de graces too.

[Agahnim]

Wait, can't the rogue disable magical traps like any other trap ? I thought it was just DC 25+ spell level. If he can't then it's really down to a will save.
(Edit : oh, I see what you mean. It would spoil the fun. Maybe a successful disable check could provide a clue ?)
I just had an idea to let the trapped player have fun : what if the evil spirit was monitoring the dungeon from inside the jar, and a trapped soul has access to the "cameras" ?

[Spore]

This isn't a random guy failing a save because the encounter didn't really work for him. It's a planned riddle for the group. If the spell would work like Magic Jar, I would agree with you, Agahnim. The Magic Jar spell can be easily removed if in safe circumstances.

But with a particularly knuckle-headed group this could take HOURS. I don't know the length of usual combat in your groups but mine tend to combat for about 45 min -1 hour each encounter. And an combat encounter progresses. A riddle might now progress for half an hour, frustrating people all around. The trapped player should at least have an ingame reason to help contributing.

[ericgrau]

Wait, can't the rogue disable magical traps like any other trap ? I thought it was just DC 25+ spell level. If he can't then it's really down to a will save.
Oh yeah I suppose he can:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm

If we really count the jar as a trap though. It may not be an actual magical trap or it should say so in the spell description like the others. Plus some can be disabled and some can't. If anything he might realize to smash something, but I can't picture anything about his rogue skills telling him to drink. If you're generous maybe a successful roll would say "Ah I see this is some kind of receptacle for transferring something. We just have to pour the something into the something else." But I made all this up. By RAW I don't think it's technically a trap.

In general I find it annoying to use disable device to say "poof, the trap is gone, encounter done". You should be jamming it, pulling out a piece of the mechanism or some such, which may require you to get somewhere or do something first.

[ComaVision]

Personally, I'd have the player that has been soul-replaced try to kill his party members. I wouldn't take over control of his character. That way he's still involved with it (until he gets incapacitated or cured).

I'd do it differently though. I like the idea of having 5 white gems in the room, and the trap triggers when someone steps within 5 feet of the gem. The gem turns black if it has successfully swapped someones soul. Search/DD works, bypass by magic works, spellcraft checks work, or just good will saves.


Or everyone killing each other if that's what they want to do. I will probably use this idea. Thanks OP!

[ericgrau]

Personally, I'd have the player that has been soul-replaced try to kill his party members. I wouldn't take over control of his character. That way he's still involved with it (until he gets incapacitated or cured).
Normally I would too, but that could confuse the players about what the solution is. Plus the jarred character doesn't keep all his abilities. Only his physical stats. Mostly he has the abilities of the caster... unless the OP's "dummy caster" means it has no abilities and he's just using the PC abilities.