Cleric Paladin

[ZhanStrider]

Is there a feat for combining Cleric and Paladin similar to Devoted Performer? I'm looking for a way to go Paladin 3/cleric 17 but still have a powerful smite.

[Pluto!]

Ordained Champion from Complete Champion is a PrC with Smite based on turning level.

Otherwise, a feat to add Paladin and Cleric levels for Paladin Smite and Cleric Caster Level for the purposes of spell effects/SR would be pretty far from broken.

[Nifft]

There's the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), but that won't let you keep your 17 caster level.

You could take a Domain which lets you Smite (like Destruction), and pick up a couple copies of Extra Smiting. That gives you Smite damage equal to your Cleric level, and you get +2 smite attempts per Extra Smiting feat. Then you won't need any Paladin levels.

[gorfnab]

Fist of Raziel (BoED) may be worth looking into. It gives you Smite with added effects and advances casting 9/10 levels.

[torrasque666]

Initiate of Bahamut gives you a smite, and combines your cleric and paladin levels for its damage.

[Troacctid]

There is a Cleric variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric) that gains smite evil and an aura of courage instead of turn undead. That would presumably let you skip the third level of Paladin as well.

[Morof Stonehands]

Dragon Magazine #325 has a lot of feats combining two classes for the purpose of a class feature. I can't remember if smite is one of them, though.

[ZhanStrider]

Dragon Magazine #325 has a lot of feats combining two classes for the purpose of a class feature. I can't remember if smite is one of them, though.

I always hear about Dragon magazine stuff. I don't know how to check them though. Are they online?

[Pluto!]

Dragon was an actual magazine.

It wasn't published online with Paizo's consent, but that's not to say that no one scanned the materials or uploaded copies...

[DMVerdandi]

Honestly, playing straight cleric is the best option.
As it was said, you can get smite for a cleric, BUT smite is pretty terrible (essentially +5 to hit/ +20 damage at max level, 5 times a day) It would be great if it worked on a full attack, but it does not.

Smiting spell is much better, and you can deliver the divine smack down on whoever wants some.
For example, inflict critical wounds is quite sub-optimal, but instead of the +5 to hit, you get an extra 4d8 if used with smiting spell, and the amount of times you can cast it goes up as your wisdom goes up.
Furthermore, you can use smiting spell as a part of a full attack.

CODzilla is just like that though.
The amount of classes that don't contribute to making them weaker can be counted on the hand.

Plus, Fluffing a cleric as a paladin is easy as pie. Take Good and Law domains, or Nobility/protection, and worship the ideals, and suddenly you are some kind of super-paladin. Furthermore there is no "code". Guidelines sure, but no messy code of conduct.



Now, Crusader/Cleric, is something worth doing.
Dat ruby knight vindicator.

[ZhanStrider]

Honestly, playing straight cleric is the best option.
As it was said, you can get smite for a cleric, BUT smite is pretty terrible (essentially +5 to hit/ +20 damage at max level, 5 times a day) It would be great if it worked on a full attack, but it does not.

Smiting spell is much better, and you can deliver the divine smack down on whoever wants some.
For example, inflict critical wounds is quite sub-optimal, but instead of the +5 to hit, you get an extra 4d8 if used with smiting spell, and the amount of times you can cast it goes up as your wisdom goes up.
Furthermore, you can use smiting spell as a part of a full attack.

CODzilla is just like that though.
The amount of classes that don't contribute to making them weaker can be counted on the hand.

Plus, Fluffing a cleric as a paladin is easy as pie. Take Good and Law domains, or Nobility/protection, and worship the ideals, and suddenly you are some kind of super-paladin. Furthermore there is no "code". Guidelines sure, but no messy code of conduct.



Now, Crusader/Cleric, is something worth doing.
Dat ruby knight vindicator.

Ruby Knight is great, my DM forbade me from taking it though. Plus, my DM house-ruled that a paladin's smite functions against undead constantly and the bad guys are all undead.

[LudicSavant]

If you ask me, melee cleric builds are generally better at fulfilling the paladin flavor and mechanics than the paladin class itself (and is much more versatile, allowing you to encompass many more visions of what a paladin can be). The basic cleric class is good enough, but there are fantastic prestige classes for making clerics better paladins than paladins as well. Check out Ordained Champion or Ruby Knight Vindicator for starters. The Prestige Paladin is a 1-level dip that grabs you complete access to the paladin spell list... earlier than the Paladin base class. A level in Church Inquisitor has very little opportunity cost and gives you Detect Evil at will.

Heck, while you absolutely can get Smite Evil as a cleric, there are better options than Smite Evil to best replicate the feeling of putting all of your power into a climactic strike to destroy Evil. Things like Surge of Fortune nova combos that sacrifice most of your resources in one explosive blow feel just like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esY2zdIsKaI.

[DMVerdandi]

Ruby Knight is great, my DM forbade me from taking it though. Plus, my DM house-ruled that a paladin's smite functions against undead constantly and the bad guys are all undead.

Even better.
Use Cure spells with smiting spell.

Lets say you are level 5. You can smite twice a day, for realistically probably like +2 attack, and +5 damage.

A cleric on the other hand, can use smiting spell and prepare cure light wounds in your most likely 3 spell slots. That is 1d8+5 damage to undead. It has already outpaced smite at level 5.
Also, you could take Intuitive Attack, which would let you dump strength, and main wisdom. With that you get +5 to attack if you have wis 20.


Cleric can become more SAD for less, and benefits far more for Being SAD.
Furthermore, outside of the few paladin only spells, Cleric can obtain everything the paladin has, and better with it's own native spells.

Furthermore, it as early as level 5 to where the paladin starts getting outpaced by the cleric.
It just gets worse as they get higher in level.
Don't dilute your cleric with paladin.

[torrasque666]

Even better.
Use Cure spells with smiting spell.

Lets say you are level 5. You can smite twice a day, for realistically probably like +2 attack, and +5 damage.

I believe he meant that his DM is allowing it to function constantly without spending smites against undeads.


Also, you could take Intuitive Attack, which would let you dump strength, and main wisdom. With that you get +5 to attack if you have wis 20.
Doesn't help with a martial weapon like a greatsword. Only works with simple weapons. So depending on his weapon choice its absolutely useless.

[DMVerdandi]

I believe he meant that his DM is allowing it to function constantly without spending smites against undeads.
OOOHHH.
Hmm. STILL iffy, simply because cleric has options OVER doing direct damage that are better single classed.
Once cleric reaches level 10, It doesn't even matter how much smiting that he could do.
You would STILL be better.



Doesn't help with a martial weapon like a greatsword. Only works with simple weapons. So depending on his weapon choice its absolutely useless.
Not using the most based weapon, the spear, anyways.
:smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

The Prestige Paladin is a 1-level dip that grabs you complete access to the paladin spell list...
That's nowhere close to correct.

Prestige Paladin is only available if regular Paladin is off-limits in the game.
You gain access to Paladin spells in Prestige Paladin at the same level you would in regular Paladin (i.e., starting at level 4), not at level 1.
You only gain access to unique (Paladin-exclusive) spells, not those shared with any other class. You'll get just a few spells like Heal Mount.

Prestigious Character Classes

A number of the standard character classes represent very specific (if not always specialized) roles in the game. These classes-the bard, the paladin, and the ranger-might require special training to enter, training that can be mimicked by transforming these classes into prestige classes.

With this variant, these classes become off limits for starting (1st-level) characters. Thus, the three prestige classes presented below represent elite character archetypes, roles that can only he achieved through training in specific areas of knowledge and expertise. In each case, the prestige class recreates the feel of the character class, but with slight variations. Each class has fifteen levels, allowing a character who enters at 6th level to continue along that path all the way up to 20th level.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.
Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class.

[Rebel7284]

That's nowhere close to correct.
* Prestige Paladin is only available if regular Paladin is off-limits in the game.


The rules say "should" which is a suggestion, not prescription. Check with the DM.



*You gain access to Paladin spells in Prestige Paladin at the same level you would in regular Paladin (i.e., starting at level 4), not at level 1.


That is only one of the ways to interpret that statement. Talking it to mean "a 4th level spell for a paladin is still a 4th level spell for prestige paladin" is just as valid. Again, check with the DM.



* You only gain access to unique (Paladin-exclusive) spells, not those shared with any other class. You'll get just a few spells like Heal Mount.


Raw yes. But this is stupid, so check with your DM. :)

[LudicSavant]

If you go into a dictionary, you'll see that there are multiple definitions for many words. Now, Curmudgeon, I feel like you're misreading things by picking the least suitable definition of a term for a given context. For instance:


The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class.

One will notice it says levels, which can refer to any number of things in the D&D world (there was even a gag about it in OotS). Now, which meaning of the word might they be using here? Well, classes are indicated to gain access to spells at a certain spell level, not a certain character level. When it says "level" it is safe to assume it means spell level, because this is what it means in every single case that it talks about this kind of thing throughout the entirety of D&D 3rd edition. Given that, a Prestige Paladin can gain access to a spell like Holy Sword earlier than a core Paladin would.

Likewise, when it talks about gaining access to spells on the paladin list, you choose a rather baffling interpretation when multiple ones would fit the text. Do you think the designers meant "Hey guys, you should make sure to check every available supplement ever made to see if any other class we've ever written ever got access to Holy Sword, to see if you're allowed to take it"? Indeed, if this were the case, the line would be entirely pointless, because no divine spell is actually unique to only one class if you have access to supplements.

[Curmudgeon]

Likewise, when it talks about gaining access to spells on the paladin list, you choose a rather baffling interpretation when multiple ones would fit the text (and again, you choose to interpret terms in ways they are never used anywhere else in D&D). Do you think the designers meant "Hey guys, you should make sure to check every available supplement ever made to see if any other class we've ever written ever got access to Holy Sword, to see if you're allowed to take it"? Indeed, if this were the case, the line would be entirely pointless, because no divine spell is actually unique to only one class if you have access to supplements.
Yes, I think that's the case. See the sidebar at the bottom of Unearthed Arcana page 71, where "unique spells" is explained in detail. "Unique" means exactly what the dictionary says.

I don't try to "choose a rather baffling interpretation" of the rules; I take just what's written.

[LudicSavant]

Yes, I think that's the case. See the sidebar at the bottom of Unearthed Arcana page 71, where "unique spells" is explained in detail. "Unique" means exactly what the dictionary says.

As a matter of fact, unique actually has several definitions in the dictionary (6 on Dictionary.com), and I feel that the Unique Spells sidebar makes more sense when read just about any other way than the way you're suggesting.


I don't try to "choose a rather baffling interpretation" of the rules; I take just what's written. You, as a matter of fact, do not just take what's written. You interpret. For instance, when it said "levels" you interpreted it as meaning something other than spell levels, despite the context.

[Pluto!]

Now, Curmudgeon, I feel like you're misreading things by picking the least suitable definition of a term for a given context.

Surprised? You must be new here.

[Troacctid]

I don't see any other possible way you could read "unique" in that context. It's pretty clearly talking about spells that are unique to the Bard, Paladin, or Ranger list.

Anyway, I think the best way to be a smiting Cleric is to just go straight Cleric with the smiting variant. It should be great.

[LudicSavant]

I don't see any other possible way you could read "unique" in that context. It's pretty clearly talking about spells that are unique to the Bard, Paladin, or Ranger list.

Unique in what context? If I say "he was unique amongst the contestants in that he had blonde hair" does that mean that no one else in the world has blonde hair? Perhaps it could mean that the class that has been converted into a prestige class (Paladin) has it, and the base caster class that is being advanced does not (e.g. unique from what the caster class being advanced offers).

Example sentence: "The cleric and paladin spell lists have a fair deal of overlap, but you will find that many spells are unique to one or the other in this comparison."

[Troacctid]

Unique in what context? If I say "he was unique amongst the contestants in that he had blonde hair" does that mean that no one else in the world has blonde hair? Perhaps it could mean that the class that has been converted into a prestige class (Paladin) has it, and the base caster class that is being advanced does not (e.g. unique from what the caster class being advanced offers).

Example sentence: "The cleric and paladin spell lists have a fair deal of overlap, but you will find that many spells are unique to one or the other in this comparison."

In the context of spells that appear on those lists, but don't appear on other lists. Example sentence: "The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists in the Player’s Handbook (as well as similar lists in other books) contain a number of spells that don’t appear on other classes’ spell lists."

[LudicSavant]

In the context of spells that appear on those lists, but don't appear on other lists. "Not appearing on other lists" does not necessarily mean "not appearing on all other lists." Quite literally, the spell list of the base class that is entering the PrC is an other list on which some of those spells do not appear, and fits that context just fine.


Example sentence: "The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists in the Player’s Handbook (as well as similar lists in other books) contain a number of spells that don’t appear on other classes’ spell lists."

*Facepalm* That sentence doesn't even use the word unique, and is thus not an example of a usage of the word.

If it matters, the interpretation that you get access to paladin spells seems to be the general consensus in every other thread I've come across when I googled it (admittedly not a large sample size). The only exception I found was an old Brilliant Gameologists thread in which the same Rebel7284 posting in this thread posted. Now, I'm not saying popular opinion means much, and you're free to interpret it however you want at your table, but you should be aware that it is a matter of interpretation and that others can and do interpret it differently. That said, I'm really not interested in discussing this further since I feel it is a tangent to the thread topic.

Indeed, it hardly even matters. You don't need to get access to paladin spells to make an awesome holy warrior cleric who smites people.

[ZhanStrider]

"Not appearing on other lists" does not necessarily mean "not appearing on all other lists." Quite literally, the spell list of the base class that is entering the PrC is an other list on which some of those spells do not appear, and fits that context just fine.



*Facepalm* That sentence doesn't even use the word unique, and is thus not an example of a usage of the word.

If it matters, the interpretation that you get access to paladin spells seems to be the general consensus in every other thread I've come across when I googled it (admittedly not a large sample size). The only exception I found was an old Brilliant Gameologists thread in which the same Rebel7284 posting in this thread posted. Now, I'm not saying popular opinion means much, and you're free to interpret it however you want at your table, but you should be aware that it is a matter of interpretation and that others can and do interpret it differently. That said, I'm really not interested in discussing this further since I feel it is a tangent to the thread topic.

Indeed, it hardly even matters. You don't need to get access to paladin spells to make an awesome holy warrior cleric who smites people.


This has just...devolved. That was fast. :D