Who Would Win-Tiamat vs. Goultard

[JNAProductions]

So I recently made Goultard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433028-Goultard-Iop), who's designed to be an appropiate and highly challenging encounter for 4 level 20 PCs.

My questions are thus:

Who would win-Tiamat or Goultard?

What kind of party and tactics could beat Goultard?

[MadBear]

So I recently made Goultard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433028-Goultard-Iop), who's designed to be an appropiate and highly challenging encounter for 4 level 20 PCs.

My questions are thus:

Who would win-Tiamat or Goultard?

What kind of party and tactics could beat Goultard?

Just doing a quick look over, wouldn't Tiamat just fly out of range of Goultard and use breath weapons till he died? There's just no way for goultard to attack effectively at range.

Also, 4 PC's who have Fly cast on them could hover 120 ft above him and use wands of magic missile on him until he died? It'd be super cheesy, but I don't see why not.

[JNAProductions]

...

You know, I'm about to playtest Goultard. That is an excellent point.

Check Goultard's page again in a few minutes, he should have a new ability to handle that.

Added: Get Over Here! which should neatly address that issue.

[-Jynx-]

Edit: He has immunity to fear, so I'm guessing you're not factoring in dragon fear.

[JNAProductions]

Form 3 and 4 have a decent chance of success against DC 26. That being said, Goultard is immune to Frightened.

So he isn't scared of the big, mean dragon. :P


Edit: He has immunity to fear, so I'm guessing you're not factoring in dragon fear.

Ee-yup.

[MadBear]

Form 3 and 4 have a decent chance of success against DC 26. That being said, Goultard is immune to Frightened.

So he isn't scared of the big, mean dragon. :P



Ee-yup.

Better.

Now if I was to continue to try and cheese it, I'd have my lvl 20 wizard trap him with a wall of force, and then cast magic jar on him until he failed his charisma save. Then my wizard would flaunt his pretty new god body in front of the fighter, before securely locking up the god jar.

Then in a few hundred years we have the perfect hook for a new set of adventurer's who were out to stop the tyrannical Fighting God Wizard who had lead a reign of terror over the land.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I recently made Goultard, who's designed to be an appropiate and highly challenging encounter for 4 level 20 PCs.

My questions are thus:

Who would win-Tiamat or Goultard?

What kind of party and tactics could beat Goultard?

Well, since he seems to lack teleportation. So an Eldritch Knight could lure him into a cave with only one entrance, then teleport to the exit and cast stone shape sealing the entrance. Or just collapse the entrance, entombing (and eventually suffocating) him.

An elemental monk could shape water and ice, dropping him 15 feet and then covering it with ice. The remaining water would collapse the pocket, drowning him (again, after ~10 minutes assuming he was able to hold his breath in time).

[JNAProductions]

And assuming he doesn't beat his way out of the ice and/or cave.

That being said, he is basically on a human chassis, so those could work with sufficient force.

[SoC175]

So I recently made Goultard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433028-Goultard-Iop), who's designed to be an appropiate and highly challenging encounter for 4 level 20 PCs.

My questions are thus:

Who would win-Tiamat or Goultard?

What kind of party and tactics could beat Goultard?Well, since Tiamat is supposed to be a CR30 encounter and out of league for level 20 PCs, either she wins by default or the D&D designers screwed up or your 4 level 20 are unusually powerful

[JNAProductions]

Not neccessarily. Part of Tiamat's CR is based on hitting several people at once-Goultard, being one person, is immune to that.

That being said, if he can beat her, then he's probably too tough for four people even at level 20.

[-Jynx-]

Tiamat could always just grapple lock him. Doesn't matter if he has the grappler feat or a good athletics check when she's gargantuan.

[JNAProductions]

Actually, he can escape the grapple piece of cake. Tiamat has, if I remember correctly, only +10 Athletics. Goultard has +26. He's almost guaranteed to escape grapples, even if Tiamat has advantage due to size (which is not RAW).

Secondly, if he's grappled by her, he's in punching range. That's not a good thing for Tiamat.

[-Jynx-]

Actually, he can escape the grapple piece of cake. Tiamat has, if I remember correctly, only +10 Athletics. Goultard has +26. He's almost guaranteed to escape grapples, even if Tiamat has advantage due to size (which is not RAW).

Considering you have disadvantage trying to grapple a creature that's larger than you, it's not wild to assume the reverse. To which she can always legendary action of which she gets 5 and they replenish on her turn.


Secondly, if he's grappled by her, he's in punching range. That's not a good thing for Tiamat.

Since Monk is the only class that will even do enough damage through punches to beat her regeneration, I'm sure after she breath/gnaws through his monk form she would be just fine steamrolling him.

[JNAProductions]

Goultard always retains his unarmed strike, and also has his (slightly more powerful) chainsword, which is another melee attack.

Being grappled wouldn't be a huge deal to him.

[1Forge]

Obviously timat Goultard dosent have a bard form. Assuming timat multiclassed at least 1 level in bard otherwise it's a real toss up. Then again goultard has a paladin form,but timat could have multiclassed as a paladin of timat. Y'know thats a real headscratcher. I think the bard 17 /paladin 3 adventurer would own them (true polymorph them into undead teacups then the paladin smites will mop up) :smallbiggrin:


But no really Goultard would win, he'd get on top of timat and just turn into a blender (metaphorically)

[Gnomes2169]

Tiamat.

0 of Goultarde's attacks are magical, so they do a lump sum of 0 damage.

That said, Goultarde having 4 forms makes him 4 encounters, and his barbarian form should be CR 29 by HP/ resistances and AC alone (his 12 attacks/ round at 1d12+16 is below the CR 28 threshhold, which is the only reason he doesn't hit CR 30). The barbarian form will absolutely shred any party that comes at it, simply because against a party with a reasonable +13 to hit (some magic items), he has effectively 990 hp from resistances (that cannot be overcome by magic weapons) and AC alone, and then his saving throws (except int) are basically auto-successes for anything without the archmagi robes.

Not only that, he has an excellent gap closer, cannot be grappled due to raw numbers and advantage (despite having 0 forms that would grant experitse), and he gets a total of 4 reactions a round to retaliate with (which if we look at the math, brings him riiiight up to the CR 29 threshold for damage, and makes him CR 30 in barbar form). Just... Yeah.

He's 4 encounters, not one, his stacking abilities and getting abilities from outside of the classes he does have is a little insane, and he basically shuts down every strategy except "hit him more than he hits you... Which is going to be impossible." So... He's definitely not a CR 20 encounter. And all 4 forms together would eventually just grind Tiamat into the dirt (hell , with 16 attacks a round, that barbarian form can take her by itself no problem).

[JNAProductions]

I'll add a note about his attacks counting as magical. That's something that slipped my mind. (Won't affect the playtest-no one has resistance to nonmagical damage anyway.)