Under represented classes/prestige classes

[Invader]

Looking for ideas for underutilized classes/prestige classes. What are some ideas for solidly tier 2-3 classes that don't see a lot of play at your tables? I've been playing around with war weaver but there's so many other options out there that don't get mentioned.

[Amphetryon]

Spirit Shaman is almost never played, IME.

[Mehangel]

Spirit Shaman is almost never played, IME.

I was just about to mention the spirit shaman, even though I actually enjoy playing it and have done so on multiple occasions. (And yes, I know it isn't very optimal, but I actually like it.)

[Pluto!]

If it's not a Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard or Psion, it sees extremely rare play. I don't think I've seen anyone else play an Archivist. and I've seen one Artificer that wasn't my own. Favored Souls, Witches, Oracles and Arcanists pretty much don't happen.

I've seen fewer Spirit Shamans and Erudites than I've seen of some of the AEG, Green Ronin, Lion's Den or Radiance House full casters.

[Brova]

Favored Souls

In fairness though, Favored Souls are kind of really bad. The deal where you get a couple of spells known at each level is a good deal when those spells are color spray or cloudkill, but a bad deal when those spells are bless or raise dead. It's the Sorcerer problem all over again, except the killer app Cleric spells are just ... not there. And you'll probably be expected to pick up all the various patching people up spells that Clerics have (the cure line, various spells to remove diseases or curses or poisons, raise dead).

But in terms of the actual topic I think there should be more Dread Necromancers out there. The list has just so many insane spells. animate dead, command undead, the planar binding line, enervation, cloudkill, magic jar.

[Sagetim]

For pathfinder? Witch. Especially good aligned.

For 3.5? I think the only time I've seen a bard is when the party size is ridiculous (like, a campaign with 10 players or so). And I would say Monk, but I'm currently in a game that has had 3 different monks (though only two at any given time in the party at the same time). And each monk was a different build: Vow of Poverty Monk, Half Dragon Half Giant Monk who went Ex-monk to go Pyrokineticist, and Monk/Assassin iajutsu draw fist flurrying punch throwing monk with like, 7 attacks in a round at level 13.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'd put any class form Tome of Battle in the underutilized category. However, that is mainly due to DMs who gladly allow Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other Tier 1 classes in the game but scream 'BROKEN' when someone tries to introduce a moderately powerful martial character into the same game. Whenever I see someone posting a question about how to make their non-caster build better someone eventually suggests something from ToB and the reply is always that it is a prohibited book.

Without going into ToB, how about Factotum/Chameleon? That is a fun combo to see played, as we've had several version of that in our games. Done right it can take Factotum from Tier 3 into a solid Tier 2, IMHO.

[Dondasch]

I don't see any of the CD base classes that often (unless I'm playing them), though the Favored Soul is more common than the other two in my experience. Wildshape Rangers are listed as T3, but I don't see them too much either.
Winterhaunt of Iborighu is a PrC I don't see mentioned that often, and it's pretty interesting, especially if you can get it on a blaster.
Deepwood Sniper is a good archery PrC, but it's 3.0 (from MotW).
Cavestalker (DotU) can potentially allow you to wield a spiked chain as a one-handed weapon. Yes, that means you can (Oversized) TWF with them. Or, go for MWF, and tear things to bits with a spiked chain storm.

[YossarianLives]

Rogues and Scouts.

This is probably specific to my group but in 4 four years playing 3.5 I've only ever seen two of these skill-monkey type characters, both played by me.

[arclance]

Tome of Battle is also somewhat obscure as a book (for physical copies anyway) since I believe it was the last 3.5 book printed until the Premium Re-Releases and it was only printed once.
I don't know anyone else in my area who has a physical copy other than me.
It has some rather obvious editing errors that might make some DMs dismiss it out of had as well.

Bards are fairly popular around here, they are not the most popular but definately not under represented.
For 3.5 anything outside the PHB Base Classes does not get played very often.
For Pathfinder it's all over the place but the newer a class is the less it gets played since most of the DMs here are more wary about the newly introduced classes.

[Sagetim]

Shugenja, and any of the oriental adventures classes (Shugenja got lifted and slightly adjusted in complete divine to reflect a lack of the great clans of rokugan, but it's still pretty much the same class). Samurai, Shaman, any of the oriental adventures prestige classes (even when there are fighters in the party that I'm in, they don't aim for weapon master or iajutsu master or....etc).

Oh...Bear Warriors. I threw one at the party a few weeks ago as an encounter and none of them figured out that he turned into a bear as part of his rage. They Still think the npc is built as some kind of werebear. Which is funny, because it's another oriental adventures class that got reprinted later with little to no changes (into complete warrior, even).

The Complete Warrior Samurai. Because...well, intimidate should not be what an entire class is based around.

I think I've only seen one ninja as a party skill monkey in 3.5 games. Most of the time, for me, it's rogues or characters with rogue levels.

[The Viscount]

I can't say I've seen much discussion of beguiler, mostly because it has a similar problem as Dread Necro, as far as spells. Almost every one of Beguiler's spells is mind affecting, and they have an extremely focused list. Beguiler's still very good, especially in a game higher in social interaction, and it is the only one of its cohort that can prop itself up with UMD.

I don't think I've seen much Wu Jen, but that may be personal bias, or it may be because the class is "wizard, but not" and so many simply play wizard instead.

[IZ42]

If it's not a Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard or Psion, it sees extremely rare play. I don't think I've seen anyone else play an Archivist. and I've seen one Artificer that wasn't my own. Favored Souls, Witches, Oracles and Arcanists pretty much don't happen.

I've seen fewer Spirit Shamans and Erudites than I've seen of some of the AEG, Green Ronin, Lion's Den or Radiance House full casters.

I quite often see Oracles and Witches, and my go to choice for casting classes are oracle and arcanist if I simply must play a full caster.

[atemu1234]

Scouts, Ninjas and Hexblades. Wu-jens, too

[Invader]

Scouts, Ninjas and Hexblades. Wu-jens, too

I played an fairly optimized hexblade (with suggested fixes) one time and fairly enjoyed it.

My big problem is that just by my nature I like playing tier one classes and that inevitably leaves a bunch of fun classes and prestige classes I never look at.

[Red Fel]

My big problem is that just by my nature I like playing tier one classes and that inevitably leaves a bunch of fun classes and prestige classes I never look at.

I have a similar problem. I either want simple, in which case I'm playing a Fighter (for fun, not for power, people); or I want functional martial, in which case I'm playing a ToB class or martial-partial like Bard or Paladin; or I want power, in which case I'm playing a T1.

While I appreciate the flavor of the many (many, many, many) classes that fall outside of these parameters, I just don't feel particularly compelled to play them. I can fluff a Wizard into something like a Wu Jen quite easily; I don't need to be a Spirit Shaman to be a Spirit Shaman, when I can do all that and more (or less) with a Druid; I don't need to play a Samurai (OA or CW) when I can knock two books together and watch a Warblade fall out.

And I think a lot of my players have similar problems. Look, there are just so freaking many classes in 3.5. Many of them are either underpowered1 or redundant. There are three dozen ways to play an unarmed combatant2. A dozen to play a necromancer3. Over a hundred to play any kind of dedicated spellcaster4. And in many cases, the fluff is negligible, if not completely lacking. There's just no reason not to choose the superior option, or the simpler option, in most cases. Which means that a lot of those classes get relegated to the "Oh, that's nice," pile.

Underutilized, I think it fair to note, does not mean good. It doesn't even mean better than other Tier 2-3s at this role.

1 When I first typed "underpowered," I typo'd "underwowered." Somehow that seemed appropriate, so I noted it. Because I care.
2 Made up number. Off of the top of my head I can count a substantial number, though. Pretty much any martial or partial-martial base class with IUS and SUS, plus Dragon Magazine materials, plus an appalling abundance of PrCs.
3 Also made up. But I can name a bunch, and so can you.
4 Probably closer to actual number. I may have estimated low.

[Curmudgeon]

In fairness though, Favored Souls are kind of really bad.
They're not bad at all; they're just limited. FSs have class features which are harder to work with than what Clerics get (domains and turn/rebuke), but the class is certainly workable. Start with an Aasimar and use LA buyoff, or Lesser Aasimar; their +2 CHA & +2 WIS boost the Favored Soul casting stats. Aasimars already get several energy resistances, so the FS can fill in the others with their class feature and have always-active energy resistance without needing spells for the purpose. Favored Souls have all good saves so they can benefit from a Ring of Evasion directly whereas a Cleric probably needs to cast Greater Resistance or Superior Resistance to make the Ring worthwhile.

Pick a deity with spiked chain as their favored weapon (Zoser, Kossuth) and you effectively get three free feats:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

Remember that Knowstones (Dragon #333, page 93) work for any class which has a limited number of spells known, including the Favored Soul.

The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes is that Tier 1s win without too much effort, and Tier 2s need some work to make the win happen. Favored Soul is solidly Tier 2, and you do need to expend the effort.

[Brova]

*Favored Soul optimization*

That just ... doesn't measure up to the Cleric. You have to keep up two casting stats, plus melee stats. You aren't proficient with heavy armor, so dumping Dex is bad for your AC. You could probably dump Int, but then you end up walking in with spellcraft or concentration.

And your low-level plan is awful. A spiked chain? You don't have Improved Trip, you don't have Combat Reflexes, you don't have any of the feats needed to be a tripstar. It's barely better than one of the half a dozen polearm variants the Cleric could run around with. You don't get the random domain powers (like Improved Initiative or a free re-roll), you don't get heavy armor, and you don't get any spell versatility. And you can't pick up a domain like Dream for an actual killer app 1st level spell (sleep in that case).

And then you get to mid levels. And it doesn't get better. You're actually behind on Weapon Focus, because a Cleric who cares will get it at 1st with the War domain. And you don't get turning, meaning no DMM or rebuking. And you're half a level behind, meaning you have to wait to take Dweomerkeeper (or you would if you had domains) or whatever other PrC you want. And you can't take the sweet Cleric only feats like Initiate of Mystra.

It's not even as good as the Archivist. At least those guys can plunder domains or Druid spells.


The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes is that Tier 1s win without too much effort, and Tier 2s need some work to make the win happen. Favored Soul is solidly Tier 2, and you do need to expend the effort.

Uh, no. The Beguiler needs less work than you've presented for the Favored Soul to be sweet, as does the Dread Necromancer - yet those classes are Tier 3. The Rogue needs more, but that work is all there in the core books. Frankly, by that standard the Archivist needs to drop a tier, because it only works if you're able to dumpster dive your way through all the spells.

Frankly, the whole Tier system collapses if you view it from any perspective other than "what does JaronK personally allow". But that's an argument for another thread.

[NomGarret]

Dragonfire Adept. It suffers from being in a late-run obscure book, but given how noob friendly it is, it should see more play.

[Curmudgeon]

That just ... doesn't measure up to the Cleric.
I never said it did. You've got unreasonable expectations if you expect everything to measure up to Tier 1 standards.

[Invader]

Dragonfire Adept. It suffers from being in a late-run obscure book, but given how noob friendly it is, it should see more play.

Also played a DFA and while mechanically it was a little boring it was a great character to RP. Of all my PCs, he's the one I'd like to bring back the most. To be fair i don't think we made past 3rd or 4th lvl so a lot if stuff hadn't come online yet.

I'd like to think Warlock falls into the category I described but I've never built one so I'm not sure.

[Gabrosin]

My table is far from optimized, but strangely enough: druid.

The couple of us who know how to optimize avoid being a druid because we don't want to be better than the rest of the party combined. The rest find it too complicated. Memorize spells every day AND have an animal companion AND have wild shape AND have summoning spells? No way! Give me something simple!

We also have a large group, so there's no need for expendable bodies like there can be with a 2-3 person party. Every party role is double-booked as it is, and no one wants to drag combat down further by adding in familiars, summons, companions, leadership, and the like.

We've also never had an archivist or an artificer. We've got a factotum for the first time this round, so that should be interesting.

[A Tad Insane]

If it's a base class in one of the completes and isn't warlock, it's underused

[Invader]

My table is far from optimized, but strangely enough: druid.

The couple of us who know how to optimize avoid being a druid because we don't want to be better than the rest of the party combined. The rest find it too complicated. Memorize spells every day AND have an animal companion AND have wild shape AND have summoning spells? No way! Give me something simple!

We also have a large group, so there's no need for expendable bodies like there can be with a 2-3 person party. Every party role is double-booked as it is, and no one wants to drag combat down further by adding in familiars, summons, companions, leadership, and the like.

We've also never had an archivist or an artificer. We've got a factotum for the first time this round, so that should be interesting.

Druids are my favorite class so I've definitely overused that one lol.

[Brova]

I never said it did. You've got unreasonable expectations if you expect everything to measure up to Tier 1 standards.

Not really. Take the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer measures up to the Wizard pretty well. You aren't required to go MAD, the Wizard list has enough single spells that getting four a level is fine, and the only class features you miss are bonus feats. And there's actually upside, in the form of various Sorcerer only spells like arcane fusion or arcane spellsurge (not Sorcerer only, but one of the few cases where spontaneous metamagic is an advantage).

I'm not saying the Favored Soul has to measure up, but it doesn't capture any of the advantages of the Cleric. There's no benefit from a massive spell list at all levels, there's no domains at low levels, there's no turning at high levels. It doesn't even measure up to the Archivist, and that's still worse than the Cleric. You're basically stuck with a small pile of situational spells and no good class features. It compares poorly to basically everything in Tier 2, and to a bunch of other classes like Beguilers, Rogues, and Dread Necromancers.

[Pyromancer999]

Not really. Take the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer measures up to the Wizard pretty well. You aren't required to go MAD, the Wizard list has enough single spells that getting four a level is fine


Where are you getting that Sorcerers get 4 a level? They end up with 43 spells in total at 20th level(at least in 3.5), and 52 in Pathfinder(due to bloodline spells). That totals out to the rough average of 2 spells per level for 3.5 and 2.5 for Pathfinder, neither of which is 4 spells a level. Even the average rate is something of a mis-representation for the better, considering Sorcerers start out with 6 spells, meaning the overall actual average rate of accumulation is roughly 1.9 in 3.5 and 2.3 in Pathfinder.

Even assuming a Sorcerer swaps out a spell every level they're able to (6th and every two levels after), that's an additional 8 spells they'll have over the course of their career, but requires the sacrifice of 8 spells.

So, guess what I'm trying to press is that the Sorcerer is still somewhat spell-starved(not getting that 4/level spell acquisition rate), so while a Sorcerer can match up with a Wizard in some areas in terms of sheer power, they're not nearly as versatile.

[Nifft]

Dragonfire Adept. It suffers from being in a late-run obscure book, but given how noob friendly it is, it should see more play.

Thirded.

Such a neat class.

My other favorite classes (which I never play) are Binder and Totemist.

[Brova]

Where are you getting that Sorcerers get 4 a level?

Per spell level. That bit is actually a little unclear. My point is that the Wizard list has enough individually good spells that getting a only a few each level is good, while that's not the case for the Cleric list. Casting color spray or sleep every day at level one is totally sweet. But casting bless or divine favor isn't. So the Sorcerer's four spells per level (actually it's three to five, but whatever) is basically fine, because he can just pick the good ones. That's not really true for the Favored Soul, because there isn't a color spray or a web on the Cleric list. It gets better at mid to high levels when spells like planar ally and gate show up, but most Cleric spells are very situational.

[marphod]

If it's a base class in one of the completes and isn't warlock, it's underused

I've seen plenty of Scouts out there, as well.

Those are the only relatively common base classes from the Completes. But quite frankly, most of the alternate base classes, that aren't for a new set of mechanics, are pretty bad. (Even some of those are awful, too.) On the other hand, most aren't tier 2 or 3, as the OP requested.

Of the base classes:

Archivists are splatbook dependent and require access to spells that are rarely accessible in scroll form (how many Paladin or Ranger characters have Scribe Scroll?).

The Artificers is not underplayed.

Barbarians and Bards are not underplayed.

Beguilers are great until you run into immunity to mind affecting spells.

Binders are not underplayed (at least, with respect to this board and dips for optimizations).

Clerics are not underplayed.

Crusaders are the least common of the Tome of Battle classes, so may count as underplayed. They're also Tier 4, IIRC, so not in the OPs target power level.

Dragon Shaman are underplayed, but I believe they are Tier 4 .

Dragonfire Adepts are underplayed, and I think they make Tier 3. Barely. Lots of flavor, but I've never been convinced that they are better at anything than a similarly built Warlock.

Dread Necromancer suffer from the worst aspects of Sorcerers (delayed spell access), Necromancer Specialists (questionable spell focus), and the Warmage (bad spell list), all wrapped up into one. Still, right Tier.

Druids are not underplayed

Duskblade are underplayed, but Tier 4 IIRC. Their spells have little out-of-combat utility.

The Factorum is not underplayed in these parts.

Favored Soul and Healer are both underplayed, but given they are poorly constructed/weak classes, there is a reason.

Fighter is not underplayed.

Hexblade, but tier 4.

Incarnate is underplayed, at least in my experience. OTOH, no one I play with is all that fond of Magic of Incarnum.

Knight is just terrible.

Marshall is too low a tier.

is a poor class of too low a tier.

Paladin and Ranger are not underplayed.

[i]Samurai -- the less said about the Tier 6 class, the better.

I don't find Scouts underplayed, but there are also tier 4.

Shaman are certainly underplayed.

Shadowcaster is overly complicated for what it gets.

Shugenja are another underplayed divine caster.

Sorcerer is not underplayed.

I forget what tier Sohei are, but I think they are 4 or lower.

No one should ever play a Soulborn.

Spellthieves are Tier 3, barely. They can be fun, but they need a re-write.

Spirit-Shaman underplayed.

Swashbuckler is underplayed but too low a tier.

Swordsage is not underplayed in these parts.

Totemist -- see Incarnate.

Truenamers may or may not be of the appropriate tier and may or may not be playable, but are underplayed.

Warblade and Warlock are not underplayed in these parts.

Warmage is underplayed, but who wants to play a weak Sorcerer anyways?

Wizard is not underplayed.

Wu Jen is underplayed.

Some of those full casters may be tier 1 though, and outside of the OP's target range -- Wu Jen, Shaman/Spirit Shaman, etc.

[Brova]

Beguilers are great until you run into immunity to mind affecting spells.

Honestly, Beguilers are just totally insane. They get the best spellcasting mechanic in the game, a bunch of the best spells in the game, and a huge pile of skills. Stuff that is immune to mind affecting spells can be hit with illusions, borrowed Cleric spells, shadow major creation, or charmed allies. The class is just totally nuts.


Dread Necromancer suffer from the worst aspects of Sorcerers (delayed spell access), Necromancer Specialists (questionable spell focus), and the Warmage (bad spell list), all wrapped up into one. Still, right Tier.

What? I mean, the Sorcerer thing is true, but the rest is just kind of nuts. I mean, necromancy may be unfocused, but that's because it just does everything. You can debuff (fear effects, enervation, curses), make minions (animate dead), and break the game (magic jar). Necromancy is actually a super sweet specialization just because of how many different effects you get from it. And their spell list is actually pretty good. The low levels are a little weak, but look at their 5th level list. cloudkill, magic jar, lesser planar binding, and slay living. Are any of those really spells you'd be embarrassed to have as a Wizard? And that's not even half the list (though the others aren't as good).

And they get the same crazy awesome spellcasting mechanic Beguilers do.


Warmage is underplayed, but who wants to play a weak Sorcerer anyways?

The Warmage is interesting. There is very little you can do with one that you wouldn't rather do with a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler. That being said, it can be good for a more "pure" Rainbow Servant build, where you rely on your Rainbow Servant-ing rather than mind control or zombies. But yes, it suffers a great deal from specializing in something awful.

[Kurald Galain]

What are some ideas for solidly tier 2-3 classes that don't see a lot of play at your tables?

I've actually been keeping statistics of what classes and races I see at the table... this counts multiclassing as whatever class the character has most levels in.

In my area, the most played classes are, in order, barbarian, cleric, fighter, druid, and paladin.
The least played classes are bloodrager, investigator, shaman, slayer, and ranger.

The most played races are human (by a LONG shot), tiefling, then all of the core races more-or-less equally, except halfling.
Then I've seen a handful of halfling, aasimar, and tengu; and everything else I've basically seen no more than once.

[Ssalarn]

CW Samurai is probably the only class I've never seen played in 3.5. It's so bad that even people with low system mastery can still see it sucks.

In Pathfinder.... Rogue and Wizard are probably the two least played classes in the groups I've been in, and that includes everything up to the ACG.

[Dondasch]

Spirit-Shaman underplayed.

Some of those full casters may be tier 1 though, and outside of the OP's target range -- Wu Jen, Shaman/Spirit Shaman, etc.

As someone who does play Spirit Shamans, I'd like to note that there's a good reason to not play one: spell retrieval can easily become a nightmare. Much like with the Favored Soul, the Druid list isn't packed with universally good spells. This means it can be harder to pick the right spells, especially given that a spell comprises at least 33% of you spells known for that level, possibly all of it (and metamagic'd spells must be retrieved as unique spells). This makes both situational spells and "cast once, then forget" spells (such as long-term buffs) more costly.

As for Tier, I'd say that they play well with Tier 3s, and act like one in practice.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Pluto!
Favored Souls, Witches, Oracles and Arcanists pretty much don't happen.


Originally Posted by Sagetim
For pathfinder? Witch. Especially good aligned.

For 3.5? I think the only time I've seen a bard is when the party size is ridiculous….

I'm currently playing a bard/oracle in a party which also includes a monk and a good-aligned witch.

Oh, and a ninja as the party skillmonkey.


Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
The most played races are human (by a LONG shot)….

When I joined one campaign last year, the DM gave us a couple dozen racial options, most of them funky homebrewed variants of standard races. He had at least a dozen kinds of elves, each with their own specific subculture in his elaborately homebrewed campaign world.

And every one of us picked human for our characters.

:smalltongue:

[Invader]

This encompasses prestige classes as well. The most likely candidates are probably going be the ones that don't get played because they nerf a base class in power despite being well written/balanced or fun to play.

[Troacctid]

If it's a base class in one of the completes and isn't warlock, it's underused

Unless it's from Complete Warrior, in which case it's overused.

[Brova]

This encompasses prestige classes as well. The most likely candidates are probably going be the ones that don't get played because they nerf a base class in power despite being well written/balanced or fun to play.

Any class with 5/10 casting progression. Green Star Adept, Mindbender, that polymorph specialist that isn't Master of Many Forms, Acolyte of the Skin, Spellsword. And the sad thing is that none of those classes do anything particularly impressive. FFS, the Mindbender literally lets you do thinks you could already do ad infinitum a limited number of times.

I would say theurge classes qualify, but there are enough early entry tricks and fast progression PrCs that they don't. Theurge classes used as intended certainly do. You drop a level and a half or more behind on casting, give up any PrC features you might have gotten, and are rewarded with less of your second type of casting than your cohort would get. True Necromancer is particularly bad in this regard. Also, the ones that randomly don't give you full progression on both sides (I'm looking at you Ultimate Magus and ToB dual progression casters).

[Hiro Quester]

There are a lot of bard prestige classes people use to advance Sublime Chord casting. I have just never been a fan of Virtuoso.

So I played a Heartfire Fanner last time I Barded (Dragon Mag 314.)

Advances bardic music and knowledge, and full arcane spell casting progression for five levels, plus new bardic music uses that grant temporary use of one or two fighter bonus feats to other party members (mass Heroics in a song; everyone picks whatever feat they want). Others grant free metamagic boosts to those who hear the song. I got a lot of requests for the free fighter feat song from party members.

Plus you are part of an organization that believes that "fire is the inspiration for creative energy and magic" for fun flavor. Synergies well with Dragonfire inspiration. That was fun to play!

[Dondasch]

So I played a Heartfire Fanner last time I Barded (Dragon Mag 314.)

Advances bardic music and knowledge, and full arcane spell casting progression for five levels, plus new bardic music uses that grant temporary use of one or two fighter bonus feats to other party members (mass Heroics in a song; everyone picks whatever feat they want). Others grant free metamagic boosts to those who hear the song. I got a lot of requests for the free fighter feat song from party members.

Plus you are part of an organization that believes that "fire is the inspiration for creative energy and magic" for fun flavor. Synergies well with Dragonfire inspiration. That was fun to play!

Yeah, I've played one too. You quickly become everyone's friend.

[marphod]

Unless it's from Complete Warrior, in which case it's overused.

... You've seen an overabundance of Hexblades, Swashbucklers, and CW Samurai?

[Brova]

... You've seen an overabundance of Hexblades, Swashbucklers, and CW Samurai?

I think his contention is that using those classes at all constitutes overuse.

[Drezius]

Dragonfire Adept. It suffers from being in a late-run obscure book, but given how noob friendly it is, it should see more play.

This.
I live in Brazil.
"Hmm? Dragon Magic?! WOW! D&D Next splatbook?!"

[Swami Monsoon]

Wilder?
Hello... is this thing on?

[The Viscount]

Honestly, Beguilers are just totally insane. They get the best spellcasting mechanic in the game, a bunch of the best spells in the game, and a huge pile of skills. Stuff that is immune to mind affecting spells can be hit with illusions, borrowed Cleric spells, shadow major creation, or charmed allies. The class is just totally nuts.



What? I mean, the Sorcerer thing is true, but the rest is just kind of nuts. I mean, necromancy may be unfocused, but that's because it just does everything. You can debuff (fear effects, enervation, curses), make minions (animate dead), and break the game (magic jar). Necromancy is actually a super sweet specialization just because of how many different effects you get from it. And their spell list is actually pretty good. The low levels are a little weak, but look at their 5th level list. cloudkill, magic jar, lesser planar binding, and slay living. Are any of those really spells you'd be embarrassed to have as a Wizard? And that's not even half the list (though the others aren't as good).

And they get the same crazy awesome spellcasting mechanic Beguilers do.



The Warmage is interesting. There is very little you can do with one that you wouldn't rather do with a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler. That being said, it can be good for a more "pure" Rainbow Servant build, where you rely on your Rainbow Servant-ing rather than mind control or zombies. But yes, it suffers a great deal from specializing in something awful.

The best spellcasting mechanic in the game? What is it that you're talking about? Do you mean the fact that they know all spells of that level? While it's certainly nice, and a high reward instantly, you are still a level behind wizard, and the wizard's limitless spells per day makes it tough to say that this is better. While the ability to spontaneously cast a large number of spells known is attractive, all the casters in this system have a disadvantage that's not instantly clear. If you check their lists, just about every spell on the list is either from the Players Handbook or the book the class is found in. They are missing out on piles of spells that would add utility. I know Advanced Learning is used as a crutch to help that, but it's not enough. 1 spell every 2 spell levels or so cannot add all the spells they are missing out on compared to even a sorcerer.

Beguiler is legitimately very strong, and having a good list, actual points, and UMD does make it easily the best of the 3. It's also the only one to have the real game-changer spells like time stop. As for borrowed Cleric spells (I assume you mean Rainbow Servant), this is something all 3 can do.

As for Dread Necromancer, having played one I can fully say you are making it out to be better than it is. As a whole DN is good, but the DN list is ok. Yes it has Planar Binding, but without magic circle it can't actually use the spell. Some say you could use it to summon a creature you then instantly kill and animate, but it's a bit shaky there. As for the rest, look at the spell list after 5. Dread Necromancer has 4 8th level spells known, most of them not good. A Dread Necromancer is essentially locked out when fighting a construct or an undead they cannot rebuke (which can happen, especially if you use your attempts to fuel divine feats).

[Jormengand]

I never said it did. You've got unreasonable expectations if you expect everything to measure up to Tier 1 standards.

He does. It's his main complaint against the truenamer, too.

[Sagetim]

He does. It's his main complaint against the truenamer, too.

Yeah, but the Few, the Proud, the Truenamers know better than to be bothered by their poorly written utterances or sadly limited to use per day abilities. I mean...come on...Sending once per day on someone whose personal truename I have to know And speak properly? That should just be a free Utterance there. It requires a significant investment of time and money to find out someone's true name (unless they already know it and for some reason shared it with you). Even then, using that ability to get in contact with a powerful npc can be onerous at best.

[Jormengand]

Yeah, but the Few, the Proud, the Truenamers know better than to be bothered by their poorly written utterances or sadly limited to use per day abilities. I mean...come on...Sending once per day on someone whose personal truename I have to know And speak properly? That should just be a free Utterance there. It requires a significant investment of time and money to find out someone's true name (unless they already know it and for some reason shared it with you). Even then, using that ability to get in contact with a powerful npc can be onerous at best.

Sending is 3/day. No-save-just-scry is the 1/day one.

[ComaVision]

Classes I've never seen in a game: Artificer, all Asian-flavored classes except Monk, Swordsage, Wilder, all of Tome of Magic

[Sagetim]

Sending is 3/day. No-save-just-scry is the 1/day one.

Oh, well...3/day is not enough for magical booty calls and 1/day for 1 round is not enough for sexy scrying. I demand justice for truenamers, I demand that their class abilities that function like utterances should just be utterances that they get for free and operate as such.

I don't think I've ever seen someone roll a Healer. If anyone would be willing to do so in a game I'm in, it would probably be me. That said, I'm the only person to have ever rolled a Vitalist in a pathfinder game with my normal group, and the person who GM'd that game banned Vitalist for any other game he runs. We just had so much healing in the party between a bard, a paladin, and a vitalist. Also, it helped that we would specifically gang up on the last guy in combat and hold him down so I could drain the hp out of him unto death to restore the party's hp. I'm sure we could have been more exploitative than that, with holding spells or what have you, but that was a short campaign anyway.

[Jormengand]

Oh, well...3/day is not enough for magical booty calls and 1/day for 1 round is not enough for sexy scrying. I demand justice for truenamers, I demand that their class abilities that function like utterances should just be utterances that they get for free and operate as such.

Ehh. Being able to send to anyone who knows their name is pretty neat. I mean, no self-respecting cleric wastes three slots on sending either. And no-save scrying, even for 1 round/day, is neat enough.

Plus, you just need to spam more utterances. *Shrug*.

[Brova]

The best spellcasting mechanic in the game?

Yes. Not the best spellcasting list (Sorcerer/Wizard - Sorcerer if you're being technical), not the best spellcasting progression (Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage), but the best spellcasting mechanic. Specifically, the deal where you know all the spells on your list and cast any of them whenever you want. Obviously that's not necessarily better than the Wizard, because the Wizard has better progression and a better list, but it's very good. It's basically the only spellcasting mechanic I'd drop behind a level for. Seriously, imagine how nuts the Sorcerer would be if his spells known was "everything on the Sorcerer/Wizard list".


While the ability to spontaneously cast a large number of spells known is attractive, all the casters in this system have a disadvantage that's not instantly clear. If you check their lists, just about every spell on the list is either from the Players Handbook or the book the class is found in. They are missing out on piles of spells that would add utility. I know Advanced Learning is used as a crutch to help that, but it's not enough. 1 spell every 2 spell levels or so cannot add all the spells they are missing out on compared to even a sorcerer.

First, I don't think that's as much of a limitation as you seem to believe. Most games aren't going to be "all sources, go nuts", they're going to be "Core + 1 to 3 books". And that's certainly an advantage, but it's not insurmountable.

Second, you're underestimating the lists themselves. Beguilers get charm person and friends, most of the illusion spells in core, and a bunch of other random utility. That's some of the best core spells. Dread Necromancers get two of the top three minion making spells (animate dead, planar binding), a bunch of debuffs and save or dies, and some very solid class features.


Yes it has Planar Binding, but without magic circle it can't actually use the spell.

You get lesser planar binding at 10th level. The last level of Dread Necromancer you should take is 8th level. Rainbow Servant gives you magic circle against evil at 1st level and is probably the best PrC for a Dread Necromancer. Or, every single Dread Necromancer that can cast planar binding should be able to cast magic circle against evil. If for some reason you can't take Rainbow Servant, you can buy a scroll. Or have a Wizard cohort. Or pay a Wizard to cast magic circle against evil. Or take Arcane Disciple (Good Domain). Seriously, if not having magic circle against evil on your list is a major obstacle, you are probably not playing at a level of optimization where you can (ab)use planar binding.


Some say you could use it to summon a creature you then instantly kill and animate, but it's a bit shaky there.

A bit shaky? I don't really think so. You presumably have a couple of party members (or undead minions) who can ready actions to dogpile whatever outsider shows up out of planar binding. Unless you're referring to some rules issue I've not heard of.


As for the rest, look at the spell list after 5. Dread Necromancer has 4 8th level spells known, most of them not good.

You get acid fog, circle of death, eyebite, and planar binding at 6th. At 7th you get destruction and finger of death. That's not great, but it's a pair of save or dies. At 8th you only get symbol of death, but that spell looks nuts. It lasts until discharged, and you can put it on clothing. It's kind of a lot like having a 60ft aura that kills anything with 150 or less HP. 9th level is nice, with an AoE save or die in wail of the banshee plus a souped up enervation in energy drain.

Of course, all that assumes you don't pick up a couple of random spells from Arcane Disciple or PrCs. You aren't quite as well of as the Beguiler, because you don't get to use abuse magic device with a wand of substitute domain, but I think you can live with it.


A Dread Necromancer is essentially locked out when fighting a construct or an undead they cannot rebuke (which can happen, especially if you use your attempts to fuel divine feats).

A Dread Necromancer is a minionmancer. If you're locked out against big, dumb brutes I have to ask why you don't use some of your own undead to kill them to death by murdering them until they die.

Here's a Dread Necromancer build that's poking around the higher edges of PO. Obviously, this is not really a proof of viability in actual play, but people (Monk Guy, Jormengand, JaronK) seem to consider borderline TO builds a cornerstone of class viability discussion. Also because I've been thinking the build out for a while and am bored.

Dread Necromancer 8/Rainbow Servant 1/Divine Oracle 1/Dweomerkeeper 10

Feats: Grab Tomb Tainted Soul at 1st level because you are a Dread Necromancer. Pick up an item creation feat and a metamagic feat somewhere. Also Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]) for Divine Oracle. Ideally you'd jam Acquire Familiar and Improved Familiar, but it's not really needed. Also, take a feat that gives you some kind of divine spellcasting.

Skills: The only one you care about is abuse magic device. You need to be able to reliably hit a 28 by 14th level. That's not really hard, considering that you are a Charisma caster.

Items: Maybe you grab a +10 abuse magic device item. You don't have to, but it can be nice. Anyway, the big meat is knowstones. Grab ones of substitute domain and polymorph, as well as any spells you'd like to spam.

Trick:

1. Casting a spell out of a knowstone is a feature of the item, not the character's spellcasting. Abuse magic device outlines that you can emulating expending the use of a class feature as well as having one. In this case that class feature is a spell slot. So you can now cast substitute domain and polymorph at will.
2. substitute domain + Mystra lets you shuffle your Good domain to Magic and your Oracle domain to another domain (such as Spell).
3. substitute domain to the Spell domain. Cast polymorph out of a knowstone to turn into a bear. Now your type is animal. Use the Spell domain's limited wish and the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell to cast a costless limited wish emulating awaken. Proceed to gain stupid large amounts of Cha, bonus spells, and extra undead.
3. (Alternate) Get an Efreet with planar binding. Have it wish for a Contingent Maximized Empowered Twinned awaken on you* set to trigger when you have the Animal type. This version has the benefit of simplifying the build (as you can stay in Rainbow Servant) but is a lot cheesier.

What's the overall? At level 14 you have more Cha than you can shake a stick at, leading to all the daily castings you want and a limitless army of undead. Also, you crush the Cha check for binding demons, you you get a huge army of those.

Why Dread Necromancer? It casts from Cha, gets better baseline spells than a Sorcerer, and gets more undead from higher Cha.

*: Yes, that's legal. Complete Arcane stats contingent spells as magic items and wish can make magic items.


He does. It's his main complaint against the truenamer, too.

Oh boy, this again. My complaint about your pet class isn't that it doesn't measure up to the Wizard, it's that the only way to optimize it is to do something that is broken in the freakin' Rogue does it. And that even if you manage to cheese out a usable skill check, you end up being worse than a Rogue that simply picks up the core only combo of TWF + Flasks + Ring of Blink. Of course, it should also be noted that I explicitly do not believe that the Tier System is a meaningful or useful framework, so claiming that I require things to measure up to Tier 1 is disingenuous at best.

[Jormengand]

Rogue that simply picks up the core only combo of TWF + Flasks + Ring of Blink.

In the spirit of this thread, has anyone else actually ever seen this combo pulled in a game? Because I haven't.

[Sagetim]

In the spirit of this thread, has anyone else actually ever seen this combo pulled in a game? Because I haven't.

No. I would imagine one of the main reasons being that it's so damn expensive. 25 gold (okay, maybe less than that if you're brewing yourself) per attack is very expensive. Even if you got the cost down through crafting, it's just more cost effective to use a weapon that doesn't explode on each use and require resupply frequently. And if you wanted to do fire damage that often, you could pick up gloves that give you produce flames for a very reasonable price and use those to make flaming sneak attacks.

[Curmudgeon]

Nope, not the core-only version. I've seen it done once with Halfling substitution levels which enhance ranged sneak attack, but that's it. Didn't fare too well, what with the cost of attacks (splash weapons) being high and the cost in feats being high (Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot). There's the inherent problem that splash weapons hit all surrounding squares, even if there are allies present.

[Amphetryon]

In the spirit of this thread, has anyone else actually ever seen this combo pulled in a game? Because I haven't.

Yes, assuming you're not limiting the question to games played offline.

[Jormengand]

Yes, assuming you're not limiting the question to games played offline.

Huh, interesting. How'd it turn out?

[Brova]

Nope, not the core-only version. I've seen it done once with Halfling substitution levels which enhance ranged sneak attack, but that's it. Didn't fare too well, what with the cost of attacks (splash weapons) being high and the cost in feats being high (Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot). There's the inherent problem that splash weapons hit all surrounding squares, even if there are allies present.

The core only claim is mostly there because it amuses me how much simpler the build is than any Truenamer at all.

Anyway, I think a lot of those complaints are kind of weak. The cost thing is not particularly huge if you hit consistently or get your party Wizard to use the various major creation variants. You do hit people in adjacent squares, but that's for a single point of damage. And I don't buy the feats objection. Two-Weapon Fighting is something every Rogue wants, Far Shot is probably only necessary if you expect lots of wide open encounters, and Quick Draw is redundant with the use of Sleight of Hand to draw something as a free action (drawing something with Sleight of Hand is normally a standard action, but you can take a -20 penalty on the check to be detected if you do it as a free action).

A better build is probably looking at Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Item Familiar (a use-activated item of Shaped grease that starts activating itself once it becomes sapient). The build benefits a great deal from a support Wizard, particularly heroics at mid levels, which frees up almost all your feat slots.

[Jormengand]

The core only claim is mostly there because it amuses me how much simpler the build is than any Truenamer at all.

I fail to say how "Take these feats and items" is any simpler than "Take these feats and items", but that's neither here nor there. It doesn't cost the truenamer anything to utter, and the result is better than "I deal damage and that's basically it."

Though, technically, because utterances work like spells, and you can sell your spells, you should be able to sell your utterances, so your utterances might cost someone else for you to utter. Hmm.

[Brova]

I fail to say how "Take these feats and items" is any simpler than "Take these feats and items", but that's neither here nor there. It doesn't cost the truenamer anything to utter, and the result is better than "I deal damage and that's basically it."

Because for the Rogue it's "take these things that are in the Core rules". Like Flasks, TWF, and Sleight of Hand. And with the Truenamer it's "take feats from half a dozen books, hope your DM allows custom items*". And you are missing the point on damage. The Rogue does enough damage to kill things in one round. The Truenamer gets to ... what exactly? Lock down people at 60ft range? Turn people fiendish temporarily? None of those are things an at level Wizard wants to be doing.

*: Interestingly, getting custom items is another thing that works better in the hands of people who aren't Truenamers.


Though, technically, because utterances work like spells, and you can sell your spells, you should be able to sell your utterances, so your utterances might cost someone else for you to utter. Hmm.

Unfortunately the rules don't work that way. And while you might want the rules to be changed in your favor, that is sadly not going to happen. I mean, it would certainly be nice if sneak attacks did full damage to Undead, because regular attacks do. But that's not what the rules say, so I don't get to do that.

[Jormengand]

Because for the Rogue it's "take these things that are in the Core rules". Like Flasks, TWF, and Sleight of Hand. And with the Truenamer it's "take feats from half a dozen books, hope your DM allows custom items*". And you are missing the point on damage. The Rogue does enough damage to kill things in one round. The Truenamer gets to ... what exactly? Lock down people at 60ft range? Turn people fiendish temporarily? None of those are things an at level Wizard wants to be doing.

*: Interestingly, getting custom items is another thing that works better in the hands of people who aren't Truenamers.

Yes, well, if you will take literally the worst truenamer utterance in the entire book as an example, then I'm not sure that's going to help you. And, no-one cares how many books you're using. It really isn't the point.


Unfortunately the rules don't work that way. And while you might want the rules to be changed in your favor, that is sadly not going to happen. I mean, it would certainly be nice if sneak attacks did full damage to Undead, because regular attacks do. But that's not what the rules say, so I don't get to do that.

"The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at his or her convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question)."
"Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell"
"A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. "

Isn't it funny how truenamers can sell their utterances but rogues can't sneak attack undead?

It's also funny that "Truenamer" is probably an answer to the actual question being asked and "Rogue" likely isn't, but you know, we're probably not going to get back near the topic, anyway. :smallsigh:

[Brova]

Yes, well, if you will take literally the worst truenamer utterance in the entire book as an example, then I'm not sure that's going to help you. And, no-one cares how many books you're using. It really isn't the point.

Here's a fun fact: You cannot prove that Truenamers are good by disagreeing with my arguments*. You need to actually bring up an effect that a Wizard would not be embarrassed to use at your level.

*: Actually, you can't even disprove my arguments just by disagreeing with them. You need evidence and arguments of your own.


Isn't it funny how truenamers can sell their utterances but rogues can't sneak attack undead?

Actually, you've proven that you can buy utterances, not sell them.


It's also funny that "Truenamer" is probably an answer to the actual question being asked and "Rogue" likely isn't, but you know, we're probably not going to get back near the topic, anyway. :smallsigh:

No, that would imply that the Truenamer should ever be used.

Also, insofar as "Flask Rogue" is distinct from "Flanking Rogue", it is underused.

[Troacctid]

You can't prove Truenamers are bad by comparing them with Wizards either.

[Nifft]

Was the thread topic, "Which classes are over represented in internet fights"?

If not, maybe we could drop the Truenamer argument?

[Brova]

You can't prove Truenamers are bad by comparing them with Wizards either.

Well, I'm primarily comparing them to Rogues. So Jormengand is free to make that comparison. Or to Beguilers. Or Dread Necromancers. Or Sorcerers. Or Druids. Or Spirit Shaman. Or any number of classes I would not be embarrassed to play.

But actually, I can. If "good" is "able to contribute to a party with a reasonably optimized Wizard", then proving that Truenamers can't do that makes them bad. Interestingly, the Flask Rogue can totally do that, because he brings enough damage to the table to kill things in a round and a half.


If not, maybe we could drop the Truenamer argument?

I'm totally willing to do that. You'll recall that this fight started when Jormengand brought up an argument from another thread (aside: isn't that banned here?) where I explained that Truenamers suck because they don't work without something that breaks the game for competent characters and even then can't really contribute.

[Jormengand]

Here's a fun fact: You cannot prove that Truenamers are good by disagreeing with my arguments*. You need to actually bring up an effect that a Wizard would not be embarrassed to use at your level.

So, you're totally not measuring by what the wizard can do, right?


*: Actually, you can't even disprove my arguments just by disagreeing with them. You need evidence and arguments of your own.

What can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.


Actually, you've proven that you can buy utterances, not sell them.

Ah, yes, and clearly, all of those people who buy utterances are buying them from nowhere.


No, that would imply that the Truenamer should ever be used.

Clearly, classes that you dislike are terrible and shouldn't be used.


Also, insofar as "Flask Rogue" is distinct from "Flanking Rogue", it is underused.

Holy hot damn, you actually said something that was correct.

And yeah, after having to blue-text half my argument because your argument is grasping at ethereal straws (and you can't hit ethereal straws, because you can't utter Ether Reforged), I'm out. Have fun.

[Nifft]

(aside: isn't that banned here?)

I have no opinion on such things, since they are the province of the moderators.

If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

[Invader]

Yeah can we not totally derail the thread with a non related topic please.

[Brova]

@Derail: I'm out. Jormengand has (again) demanded that I follow the double secret rules and stormed off after claiming that wanting character to be effective is unfair.

More on topic, can we also talk about stuff that's over-represented? Because I don't see the appeal of Mage of the Arcane Order. You burn two feats for the ability to cast a few spells spotaneously. How is that better than Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought, or just leaving some utility slots unfilled? I kind of get it if you're a Sorcerer (go go gadet Spell Versatility!), but I don't see the appeal of it for Wizards.


So, you're totally not measuring by what the wizard can do, right?

You'll note that before you posted, I responded to Troacctid making the same argument.


What can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

Okay, here's some evidence.

At 5th level tank monsters have about 50 HP and a touch AC of roughly 12. A 5th level Flask Rogue gets two attacks at +7 or so, dealing about 5d6 damage each, for a total of 35 or so a round. That's about a round and a half to lethal.


Ah, yes, and clearly, all of those people who buy utterances are buying them from nowhere.

Look, there are not rules to sell spells. That's certainly an oversight, but it is actually true.


If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

Nah. That would feel like cheating. If I beat Jormengand by calling the mods, it's not really winning.

[Jormengand]

I have no opinion on such things, since they are the province of the moderators.

If you suspect such activity, I guess you ought to use the report feature to contact a mod, and link the other thread.

The rules are against "Harassment of other posters, such as repeatedly following them from thread to thread to dispute them, personally" - I don't think that a comment to Curmudgeon which was meant to be a "Yes, he probably is doing that" rather than a criticism, and certainly not a repeated one, qualifies - and "carry[ing] over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion". I was not, in fact, angry, nor attempting to incite it. But anyway, should we continue actually discussing what we're here to discuss?

Like, how I've never actually seen Binder or Shadowcaster, except one game that never got off the ground.


Nah. That would feel like cheating. If I beat Jormengand by calling the mods, it's not really winning.

Given that we've both said we're out, I won't drag this on by responding to your arguments, but I would question why you feel such a personal rivalry against me?

[Dondasch]

Yeah can we not totally derail the thread with a non related topic please.

In that case, let's discuss why the two worthwhile Incarnum classes get underplayed.

I assume the main reason is DMs/players not liking/understanding Magic of Incarnum, but the Playground tends to look on it pretty favorable, so I'd expect to see it more often here.

[Brova]

Given that we've both said we're out, I won't drag this on by responding to your arguments, but I would question why you feel such a personal rivalry against me?

It's not personal, it's just that you are wrong. If I got you banned, I would not have the satisfaction of demonstrating that you are wrong. Same thing with Monk Guy.


I assume the main reason is DMs/players not liking/understanding Magic of Incarnum, but the Playground tends to look on it pretty favorable, so I'd expect to see it more often here.

I dunno. I don't really buy Incarnate as worthwhile, but I think the reason the Totemist doesn't get played is that most people in games that would accept it would rather play a Druid. Like, the class is sweet, and I would totally rock a Totem Rager build, but I can't really see playing one where the Druid is on the table.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate is actually quite solid, especially at low levels, where they can roflstomp CR-appropriate encounters like nobody's business. The power of soulmelds starts to fall off later, but you still have a lot of utility, and all it takes is a single dip in Crusader or Warblade to go right back to being a melee monster, or in a familiar-granting class to start breaking the action economy with Share Soulmeld. Even single-classed, you're still easily at the level of, say, a Binder.

This is all without being evil. If you have access to evil soulmelds, then you can get some pretty stellar minionmancy going as soon as 2nd level--that necrocarnum zombie is kind of a powerhouse.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway, I think a lot of those complaints are kind of weak. The cost thing is not particularly huge if you hit consistently ...
Except you generally don't. You're at -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', and -6 at 30' (the limit of ranged sneak attack). That's going to negate the advantage of touch attack vs. regular attack for all Light and Medium armors. With only 3/4 BAB you'll miss a lot of the time.

And I don't buy the feats objection. Two-Weapon Fighting is something every Rogue wants,
The last hundred or so Rogues I've played didn't want it. That's another -2 to attacks, which means your ranged touch attacks aren't doing any better than an archer's normal ranged attacks, even against Heavy armor.

Far Shot is probably only necessary if you expect lots of wide open encounters,
See above. I'm staying strictly within the close range at which sneak attack is allowed.

and Quick Draw is redundant with the use of Sleight of Hand to draw something as a free action (drawing something with Sleight of Hand is normally a standard action, but you can take a -20 penalty on the check to be detected if you do it as a free action).
That doesn't work very well.
You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you.
...
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
...
Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.
You need an observer to hide any weapon with Sleight of Hand. Then drawing a hidden weapon requires a cheese-tolerant DM.
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.
I've only seen a DM allow free action Sleight of Hand until you're observed, after which time it's a standard action for the rest of the encounter.

A better build is probably looking at Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Item Familiar ...
I've never played in a single game where the Item Familiar variant rules were allowed.

[Brova]

Incarnate: What soulmelds are you using? The idea of melee-ing with simple weapons, medium armor, d6 hit points, and poor BAB doesn't seem good.


Except you generally don't. You're at -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', and -6 at 30' (the limit of ranged sneak attack). That's going to negate the advantage of touch attack vs. regular attack for all Light and Medium armors. With only 3/4 BAB you'll miss a lot of the time.

Let's assume you're a Halfling. You're looking at 20 Dex, a size bonus, a racial bonus with thrown weapons, and the Point Blank Shot bonus. That's +8 at level one, against opponents with no armor or Dex bonuses to AC. That's already reasonably good odds at anything other than 30ft range, and the number you're targeting basically doesn't scale. No core CR 20 monster has a flat-footed touch AC of more than 10, and at that point you're rolling a +8 or so on your lowest attack with the full penalties for range, TWF, and Rapid Shot.


That doesn't work very well.
You need an observer to hide any weapon with Sleight of Hand. Then drawing a hidden weapon requires a cheese-tolerant DM.
I've only seen a DM allow free action Sleight of Hand until you're observed, after which time it's a standard action for the rest of the encounter.

That's just not how it works. I can imagine that it might get nerfed, but then you're getting into pretty unpredictable territory.


I've never played in a single game where the Item Familiar variant rules were allowed.

That's fair. Although, in the context of the discussion, it's a much bigger hit to Truenamers.

[Pluto!]

Very low levels, Incarnate has an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack, which is a pretty big deal for the first few HD. And even 1-round flight is a pretty big deal at levels 1-3.

Then Necrocarnum Circlet's zombies come in and can be pretty strong.

Granted, the class kind of sucks otherwise, and the numeric bonuses get overstated pretty hard on these boards, considering that they stack awkwardly with other bonuses and Incarnates rarely have the feat slots or abilities to leverage those bonuses into something useful.

[marphod]

Yes. Not the best spellcasting list (Sorcerer/Wizard - Sorcerer if you're being technical), not the best spellcasting progression (Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage), but the best spellcasting mechanic. Specifically, the deal where you know all the spells on your list and cast any of them whenever you want. Obviously that's not necessarily better than the Wizard, because the Wizard has better progression and a better list, but it's very good. It's basically the only spellcasting mechanic I'd drop behind a level for. Seriously, imagine how nuts the Sorcerer would be if his spells known was "everything on the Sorcerer/Wizard list".


They'd be the Magister (or any of the other full casters with a few feats) from Arcana Evolved. Which, other than a little flexibility that it takes a Wizard some effort to do, is on the same power level.


First, I don't think that's as much of a limitation as you seem to believe. Most games aren't going to be "all sources, go nuts", they're going to be "Core + 1 to 3 books". And that's certainly an advantage, but it's not insurmountable.


You are playing different games from what I end up playing.

My experience is 'Core, Completes, Races of, MIC, SpC, and +((1d4)d6) books.'

And then there is some irony with your example builds not only requiring more than Core, but also requiring Dragon Magazine.


Second, you're underestimating the lists themselves. Beguilers get charm person and friends, most of the illusion spells in core, and a bunch of other random utility. That's some of the best core spells. Dread Necromancers get two of the top three minion making spells (animate dead, planar binding), a bunch of debuffs and save or dies, and some very solid class features.

Charm Person is great until you get Mind Affecting Immunity on everyone or non-humanoid opponents, which is pretty typical. Charm Monster comes online just about the time that immunity is common.

Some of the best spells from Core? Maybe. It is lacking Prestidigitation, Protection from Alignment, Grease, most of the ability drain spells, any of the summons, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, most of the Save-or-Die/Suck spells, the ability to actually hurt something (Doesn't matter if something is currently sucking if you can't kill it before it recovers), Fear effects, Transformation effects, etc. It lacks mobility spells or get-out-of-doom affects (other than Invisibility). It lacks a whole lot.


You get lesser planar binding at 10th level. The last level of Dread Necromancer you should take is 8th level. Rainbow Servant gives you magic circle against evil at 1st level and is probably the best PrC for a Dread Necromancer. Or, every single Dread Necromancer that can cast planar binding should be able to cast magic circle against evil. If for some reason you can't take Rainbow Servant, you can buy a scroll. Or have a Wizard cohort. Or pay a Wizard to cast magic circle against evil. Or take Arcane Disciple (Good Domain). Seriously, if not having magic circle against evil on your list is a major obstacle, you are probably not playing at a level of optimization where you can (ab)use planar binding.

A bit shaky? I don't really think so. You presumably have a couple of party members (or undead minions) who can ready actions to dogpile whatever outsider shows up out of planar binding. Unless you're referring to some rules issue I've not heard of.


That's moving goalposts. But, given that few base classes are worth taking past 5th level or so, I'm not going to object too much.

However, a single PrC cannot save any class. There are characters that will not qualify for Rainbow Servant -- like most Dread Necromancers (to get both, you have to be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral). Buying a scroll isn't a solution -- Use Magic Device isn't a real solution as it isn't on your class skill list. And anything that involves Leadership is a Poor Game Design issue.

Classes should have the ability to use their class features. Planar Binding is a spell on the DN's list. They should be able to use it effectively, which requires having Magic Circle. That Magic Circle isn't on the list is just one example of a poor class design.

Your comment about not optimizing enough to use Planar Binding is both an ad hominem attack and a non sequitor. As such, I'll ignore it.

Without Magic Circle or Dimensional Anchor (or similar), what is to stop you Planar Bound creature from JUST LEAVING? Nothing.



You get acid fog, circle of death, eyebite, and planar binding at 6th. At 7th you get destruction and finger of death. That's not great, but it's a pair of save or dies. At 8th you only get symbol of death, but that spell looks nuts. It lasts until discharged, and you can put it on clothing. It's kind of a lot like having a 60ft aura that kills anything with 150 or less HP. 9th level is nice, with an AoE save or die in wail of the banshee plus a souped up enervation in energy drain.

One or two spell effect does not a class make. One or two spells per spell level does not a class make.

Get Immunity to Death Effects and Negative Energy, and the DN has severe issues.

By the by, Symbol of Death kills creatures whose combined HP is 150 or less. With a Fort save and has restrictions against offensive use. The Death Domain's feature is quite probably better.



Feats: Grab Tomb Tainted Soul at 1st level because you are a Dread Necromancer. Pick up an item creation feat and a metamagic feat somewhere. Also Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]) for Divine Oracle. Ideally you'd jam Acquire Familiar and Improved Familiar, but it's not really needed. Also, take a feat that gives you some kind of divine spellcasting.


Some kind of feat to gain divine spellcasting ... which feat are you talking?

Arcane Disciple makes the spells learned Arcane. Domains gained are arcane spells for arcane casters unless specified otherwise.


Trick:

1. Casting a spell out of a knowstone is a feature of the item, not the character's spellcasting. Abuse magic device outlines that you can emulating expending the use of a class feature as well as having one. In this case that class feature is a spell slot. So you can now cast substitute domain and polymorph at will.


Uh. No. At least, that is not a given with the RAW.

Spell Slots are not class features; Spells or Spellcasting is the name of the class feature.

Casting a spell using a Knowstone is explicitly using your own spellcasting ability. "A knowstone provides it bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he [sic] can then use his spell slots to cast normally."

You can emulate having Spellcasting as a class feature, sure. This lets you add a spell from a Knowstone to your virtual 'known spells list' for whatever class you emulated. Your Emulate Class Feature is done. You don't actually have the required spell slots of that class in order to cast the spell and Emulate Class Feature only lets you activate a magic item, it doesn't fuel it. The spell isn't added to your Beguiler or Dread Necro's Class list. You _certainly_ don't get to cast the spell at will.

The interpretation that the knowstone adds the spell to your Beguiler spell list is ambiguous at best, and not the common interpretation in my experience.

If you had a staff, you could (possibly) combine the knowstone and the staff to use the spell from the staff. But you could just emulate the feature and use the staff.


3. substitute domain to the Spell domain. Cast polymorph out of a knowstone to turn into a bear. Now your type is animal. Use the Spell domain's limited wish and the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell to cast a costless limited wish emulating awaken. Proceed to gain stupid large amounts of Cha, bonus spells, and extra undead.

Still not sure how you think you can cast a Divine Spell when you have no Divine Spell Slots to fire Substitute Domain, but you could do it via a few other ways. Which would let you use the Spell Domain to cast Polymorph (using Greater Anyspell, not a knowstone), but will ignore that problem.

You aren't a valid target for Awaken. Why? You cannot be an animal.

no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal
Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Even if this did work, which it doesn't and is clearly TO brokeness, there are 2 other possible interpretations. First you would re-write your intelligence score in the process. This is, debatably, a new sentience which is now an NPC. (Alternatively, whatever your new int is, you may have just lost language skills, skill point, etc.) Or, the Polymorph's 'you retain your mental attributes' trumps the changes Awaken would provide and you revert at the end of the Polymorph. (There is also the interpretation you are now permanently a Magical Beast without Natural Spell. Good luck.)

[Brova]

You are playing different games from what I end up playing.

My experience is 'Core, Completes, Races of, MIC, SpC, and +((1d4)d6) books.'

The experience of people on D&D boards is not generally typical. In any case, the fixed list casters also benefit from additional books, mostly because of Rainbow Servant and substitute domain.


Charm Person is great until you get Mind Affecting Immunity on everyone or non-humanoid opponents, which is pretty typical. Charm Monster comes online just about the time that immunity is common.

I don't understand why people say this. charm person turns defeated enemies into allies. Allies you can then use to defeat monsters with immunity to charm person. And no, immunity does not become common when charm monster comes online. At 8th about ten out of thirty creatures are immune. At 18th it's two out of eight.


However, a single PrC cannot save any class. There are characters that will not qualify for Rainbow Servant -- like most Dread Necromancers (to get both, you have to be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral). Buying a scroll isn't a solution -- Use Magic Device isn't a real solution as it isn't on your class skill list. And anything that involves Leadership is a Poor Game Design issue.

Actually, this is shifting goal posts.


Your comment about not optimizing enough to use Planar Binding is both an ad hominem attack and a non sequitor. As such, I'll ignore it.

What? My point is that in games where the DM is going to stop you from using Rainbow Servant or scrolls or paying for spells or whatever, he probably wouldn't have let you use planar binding to summon up a horde of demons anyway.


Without Magic Circle or Dimensional Anchor (or similar), what is to stop you Planar Bound creature from JUST LEAVING? Nothing.

The fact that it's dead?


Get Immunity to Death Effects and Negative Energy, and the DN has severe issues.

No, because in addition to spells, he gets bound devils and undead minions. Seriously, you're evaluating the Dread Necromancer as if animate dead didn't exist. Given that undead minions are probably the number one reason people become Necromancers, Dread or otherwise, that's deeply dubious.


Some kind of feat to gain divine spellcasting ... which feat are you talking?

Southern Magician, probably. You could always dip Cleric if you wanted to.


*knowstones*

Go read the PHB section on "Emulate A Class Feature" the given example is emulating the expenditure of a turn attempt


Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Ah, but that's not clear. There's just a restriction, that generally you cannot be an animal with Int >2. polymorph has a specific allowance that you become an Animal, with no provision for Int score.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's assume you're a Halfling. You're looking at 20 Dex, a size bonus, a racial bonus with thrown weapons, and the Point Blank Shot bonus.
So you're claiming that spending 16 of your 25 point buy on DEX is going to make for a viable character?

I don't think ignoring STR (carrying capacity), WIS (perception skills, Will saves), INT (skill points, Search, Disable Device), CHA (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and CON (HP, Fortitude saves) is a good plan. Carrying splash weapons in your clothing means you don't get to offset any weight with a Heward's Handy Haversack, and 6 STR means you can only tote 6 splash weapons before being encumbered — and that assumes you carry nothing else. With a WIS penalty you may fail your Spot check to even see your enemy. And of course you're going to be useless or dead from the first enemy who casts any spell with a Fortitude or Will save.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate: What soulmelds are you using? The idea of melee-ing with simple weapons, medium armor, d6 hit points, and poor BAB doesn't seem good.

Dissolving Spittle and Lightning Gauntlets are touch attacks that can hit for 3d6 damage at 1st level. Astral Vambraces make you untouchable against low-level enemies with up to DR 6/magic, again at 1st level, although even the base DR 2/magic is pretty overpowered against dinky little kobolds.


The experience of people on D&D boards is not generally typical. In any case, the fixed list casters also benefit from additional books, mostly because of Rainbow Servant and substitute domain.

Man, you need to stop bringing up the Rainbow Servant and Substitute Domain tricks like they're things that DMs will allow. Rainbow Servant has multiple dysfunctions that will screw you over if the DM makes any ruling other than the most generously optimistic one, and Substitute Domain doesn't work at all for Beguilers unless you fudge it with a house rule.

[Brova]

So you're claiming that spending 16 of your 25 point buy on DEX is going to make for a viable character?

I don't think ignoring STR (carrying capacity), WIS (perception skills, Will saves), INT (skill points, Search, Disable Device), CHA (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and CON (HP, Fortitude saves) is a good plan.

It's situational, depending on both how high level you start (higher levels need the marginal +1 or +2 from Dex less) and how generous stats are. If it's specifically 25 point buy starting from 1st, I'd probably go with 17/14/12/10/8/8. Dumping mental stats isn't awful, as you're missing a 5% chance on a roll that is generally going to be off the RNG in one direction or the other.


Man, you need to stop bringing up the Rainbow Servant and Substitute Domain tricks like they're things that DMs will allow. Rainbow Servant has multiple dysfunctions that will screw you over if the DM makes any ruling other than the most generously optimistic one, and Substitute Domain doesn't work at all for Beguilers unless you fudge it with a house rule.

The baseline Rainbow Servant plan is 100% legal and is going to be good enough in almost every game. It is possible that the DM will make some counter-ruling, but he could do that about anything. Is color spray bad because the DM could rule that people get an extra save each round?

As far as substitute domain, the RAW is actually very clearly in favor of the trick. It's just that the people writing the spell never considered what might happen if anyone who wasn't a Cleric cast it.

[Troacctid]

The baseline Rainbow Servant plan is 100% legal and is going to be good enough in almost every game. It is possible that the DM will make some counter-ruling, but he could do that about anything. Is color spray bad because the DM could rule that people get an extra save each round?

As far as substitute domain, the RAW is actually very clearly in favor of the trick. It's just that the people writing the spell never considered what might happen if anyone who wasn't a Cleric cast it.

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter). In order for it to be good, your DM has to be willing to rule against the RAW and say its spells are added to your class spell list, but also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text, and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day. That's like multiple rulings that have to go in your favor, and they're not even consistent with each other. And this is just interpreting the text--the only houserules would be ones in your favor, not ones to screw you over.

As for Substitute Domain, the RAW is that you have to prepare the spells, so it's not useful for a spontaneous caster unless you take Arcane Preparation. And even then, you're only getting the domains from one deity, which is a lot of effort for a not-so-impressive payoff.

[Sagetim]

*snip*

You aren't a valid target for Awaken. Why? You cannot be an animal.

Any would-be animal with an Intelligence higher of 3 or higher is a Magical Beast.

Even if this did work, which it doesn't and is clearly TO brokeness, there are 2 other possible interpretations. First you would re-write your intelligence score in the process. This is, debatably, a new sentience which is now an NPC. (Alternatively, whatever your new int is, you may have just lost language skills, skill point, etc.) Or, the Polymorph's 'you retain your mental attributes' trumps the changes Awaken would provide and you revert at the end of the Polymorph. (There is also the interpretation you are now permanently a Magical Beast without Natural Spell. Good luck.)

You would need to be a subsentient (int 1 or 2) animal to be a viable target for awaken. And while you could maybe argue that having int damage or drain down to that point would allow you to qualify for awaken, you sure as hell aren't casting any spells at that low intelligence. And even if you get someone to cast awaken on you while you have that much damage, there's no reason to assume that the new sentience wouldn't overright the personality that used to be there (thus zapping away class levels, personality, etc).

Even if you did get awaken cast on you without destorying who you are, you are rolling 3d6 for your int score. This could turn out Really badly for you. Additionally, you're getting 2 animal hit dice. Those things suck. The minor bump to your charisma is not worth the other effects of Awaken on a player character. Even if you get yourself killed and raise dead'd twice to erase the animal hit dice, you're stuck with the new, random intelligence score.

[ekarney]

I'd put any class form Tome of Battle in the underutilized category. However, that is mainly due to DMs who gladly allow Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other Tier 1 classes in the game but scream 'BROKEN' when someone tries to introduce a moderately powerful martial character into the same game. Whenever I see someone posting a question about how to make their non-caster build better someone eventually suggests something from ToB and the reply is always that it is a prohibited book.

Without going into ToB, how about Factotum/Chameleon? That is a fun combo to see played, as we've had several version of that in our games. Done right it can take Factotum from Tier 3 into a solid Tier 2, IMHO.

I don't allow ToB classes simply because I'm not fully familiar with them, what I have done however is allowed my players to choose from my own homebrew of suped martial classes as an alternative.

I think the only I ban because of brokenness is StP Erudite.

Factotum/Charmeleon looks really interesting I might run that in the next game I play in.

I can't speak for their tiers since I've never played them, but the Death Master looks quite nice as a direct upgrade from the Dread Necromancer.

Mountebank (Base class) is definitely fun looking, as is the Sohei.

[torrasque666]

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter). In order for it to be good, your DM has to be willing to rule against the RAW and say its spells are added to your class spell list, but also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text, and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day. That's like multiple rulings that have to go in your favor, and they're not even consistent with each other. And this is just interpreting the text--the only houserules would be ones in your favor, not ones to screw you over.

I.... I'm now debating whether or not to make this apparent to the guy in my group who always goes Beguiler-Rainbow Servant because we're always against undead and the group has put a soft ban on minionmancy(by way of "oh **** the hell no. rounds already take forever. no.") and my DM who never really..... reads our class features.... he just relies on me to do it...

[Kantolin]

I wouldn't say they're underrepresented per se, as there are generally stronger options available, but some of the most fun I've had was with a hexblade, shadowcaster, lurk, and my spirit shaman.

All four, despite their flaws, have very fun mechanics to utilize.

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

[Nifft]

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

I've had great fun playing a Psion, and I feel like it's pretty decently balanced in 3.5e, but they seem to make some DMs nervous in ways that Druids and Wizards don't.

[Troacctid]

I think Psychic Rogues are definitely underrepresented too. They match up pretty well against the standard Rogue. Having access to psionics is a pretty big deal, and well worth losing a bit of sneak attack, IMO.

[Brova]

The Rainbow Servant capstone doesn't add any spells to your spells known, and the Beguiler's only mechanism to learn them is via Advanced Learning, or possibly by leveling up and gaining access to a new level of spells (it's ambiguous on the latter).

No. The FAQ unambiguously rules that Warmages (who have the exact same learning mechanism) get all Cleric spells from the Rainbow Servant capstone. Here's the quote:


If a warmage (CAr 10) gains access to all the cleric spells though the rainbow servant prestige class (CD 54), does he really have all those spells to choose from each time he casts a spell?

If a warmage takes ten levels of rainbow servant, he adds all of the spells from the cleric spell list to his own spell list and can choose from all of them when he casts spells.

So can you please stop making this argument? It's not only a bad argument, it's one that has been unambiguously ruled on.


also not rule against the RAW and say that spellcasting advancement works as indicated by the table rather than the text,

The DM has to not rule against RAW for every single build.


and rule that you still get spells known from Rainbow Servant levels even though the text only says you get spells per day.

Actually, no he doesn't. The Beguiler indicates that:


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

So it doesn't particularly matter whether you learn the spells or not.


As for Substitute Domain, the RAW is that you have to prepare the spells, so it's not useful for a spontaneous caster unless you take Arcane Preparation. And even then, you're only getting the domains from one deity, which is a lot of effort for a not-so-impressive payoff.

First, it indicates that you:


You gain the granted power of the new domain, as well as access to any of its spells that you can cast—though you must still prepare the spells normally.

Now, by strict RAW that arguably doesn't do anything, depending on whether "can cast" refers to right now or in general. Anyway, that says you must still "prepare the spells normally". If you don't prepare spells, you normally prepare them by not preparing them. So you continue not preparing them.

As far as the single god thing, there's no listed penalty for switching gods. Even if the DM houserules something, you can get a pretty good selection from Mystra or another a god with domains with save or dies.


I.... I'm now debating whether or not to make this apparent to the guy in my group who always goes Beguiler-Rainbow Servant because we're always against undead and the group has put a soft ban on minionmancy(by way of "oh **** the hell no. rounds already take forever. no.") and my DM who never really..... reads our class features.... he just relies on me to do it...

Please don't. It's not actually true, so it's just being a prick.


You would need to be a subsentient (int 1 or 2) animal to be a viable target for awaken.

No you don't. awaken specifically targets "a tree or animal". Doesn't have to be unintelligent.

[Troacctid]

You're quoting the FAQ, which is well known for going against the RAW in a lot of places. In this case, what the FAQ says contradicts what the text says, and the text takes precedence in that conflict. Doesn't the Sage also say you should follow the progression in the table rather than giving it 10/10 casting? I'd think you'd be crossing your fingers hoping the DM doesn't put stock in the FAQ.

[Gabrosin]

I wouldn't say they're underrepresented per se, as there are generally stronger options available, but some of the most fun I've had was with a hexblade, shadowcaster, lurk, and my spirit shaman.

All four, despite their flaws, have very fun mechanics to utilize.

For more properly underrepresented, however, I'd have to go with psions and psychic warriors. I know a ton of people who would really like their mechanics, but simply cannot be bothered to look at psionics, heh.

This is us. Most of our group has a hard enough time adapting to Tome of Battle; we stay away from anything Tome of Magic or Psionics to avoid further complication. It hasn't been a problem.

[The Viscount]

I don't allow ToB classes simply because I'm not fully familiar with them, what I have done however is allowed my players to choose from my own homebrew of suped martial classes as an alternative.

I think the only I ban because of brokenness is StP Erudite.

Factotum/Charmeleon looks really interesting I might run that in the next game I play in.

I can't speak for their tiers since I've never played them, but the Death Master looks quite nice as a direct upgrade from the Dread Necromancer.

Mountebank (Base class) is definitely fun looking, as is the Sohei.

I really want to use Sohei at some point, because it seems genuinely fun. I expect Mountebank is somewhat difficult to use because most of your class features pull from the same pool, which is a little small, and mark of damnation is just cruel. The class isn't that strong that it needs a penalty for dying.

Glad you like Factotum/Chameleon. It can be a bit demanding depending on how strong you want to make it.

Death Master is quite solid, it won't control quite as many undead as a Dread Necromancer, but it's really not necessary to have that many. It trades it for a lot more utility spells, (and good ones at that) as well has having the earliest access (without doing weird stuff) to animate dead in the game, gaining it at level 3.

As for discussions of Mage of the Arcane Order, it's useful for the same reason Skypledge would be useful. It allows a straightforward means of some degree of spontaneous casting as a prepared caster. While the same can be done with some feat choices, those feats might be used for other things. More importantly, the spellpool gives access to spells that a wizard might not necessarily have. Not every DM gives wizards free unlimited access to the spellbooks of other wizards, and not everybody feels like spending all their money on scrolls (plus some DMs might not have every town stocked with a every scroll).

Brova, you have overestimated the use of charm person. It is a powerful spell, and in social situations is priceless, yes. However, it only raises attitudes to friendly. Actions like back up and aid require Helpful attitudes, and the 1/hour per level is certainly long, but it's a drain on resources to attempt to keep such creatures as permanent allies. Furthermore, type immunity to mind affecting affects is moderately common, but far more dangerous to you as a beguiler is the bane of enchanters everywhere, protection from x. It prevents you from using any charm or compulsion effects on the creature, and the duration is more than long enough for a confrontation to shake out one way or another.

I am somewhat puzzled by your Dread Necromancer build. Why would you take Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar? Do you care about advancing familiar that much? DN's familiar is already given by level 8, and it is already improved, though from a small list. Imp and Quasit are some of the best. Are you planning on doing something different with your familiar? To clarify, are you talking about repeatedly using awaken on yourself as an animal? If so, I usually hear most arbitrarily high loops as being considered TO. Besides, if you want to do this sort of thing, why not use magic jar, animate dead and pact of return (from advanced learning) to gain arbitrarily high strength and dex? Many slots are nice, but you're still stuck with your DN list.
Is your plan to use your arbitrarily high Cha to overcome your crippled animate dead cap? Because Dread Necromancer's cap is based off of class level, not character level, after level 8.

I said that planar binding without magic circles is shaky because the spell makes specific mention of you having a circle in place when casting the spell. It's not clear that the creature can even be summoned without a magic circle focused inward. And while the tactic of piling on the summon and killing it to reanimate it is a popular one, but it ignores the point that planar binding is best used to gain use of the summon's spell like and su abilities, which skeletons and zombies lack.

If you are telling me that eyebite and circle of death are worthwhile spells at their level I will ask you to please explain why. As for other spells, yes Dread Necromancer has some good spells, but its overall list is only moderately good, not great. Death Ward shuts down an embarrassing number of your spells, and simple flight evades most skeletons, though you can admittedly bring them down with rebuked undead. Rebuking carries its own problem, in that anything weak enough to be controlled by rebuking is weak enough to not contribute well in combat.

Save or dies can be ok, but they're not the be all and end all. As for wail of the banshee, I'm severely confused why you think it's so good. It is fort negates, which is something even slay living doesn't have. Fort negates spells are all over the DN list and necromancy in general, so this isn't a specific problem. But back to the spell, what on earth are you doing that you need to maybe kill or maybe do nothing to 1 creature per level in a 40 foot radius spread? When are you going to find that many creatures packed that tightly? Are all of your allies simply hanging back? More importantly, if you are actually facing that many creatures in a horde-type encounter, they will all be very weak (20 CR 11 monsters makes a CR 20 encounter), so you can simply kill them with an area of effect spell and not waste your 9nths. This is beside the fact that you only reap XP from CR 13+ monsters at level 20.

As for minionmancy in general, I didn't talk about it before because it is inherently problematic to use, especially Dread Necromancer's horde of mooks style. Adding this many creatures to a combat is a headache for everyone involved, and animated undead are still quite limited in their roles. They can bonk things, and that's it. It certainly solves some problems, but problems that are solved through bonking are rather simple, and usually can be solved in other ways. I've played a Dread Necromancer, and as such I respectfully refrained from constantly entering battles with my full cap of animated undead trailing behind me.

[Sagetim]

I really want to use Sohei at some point, because it seems genuinely fun. I expect Mountebank is somewhat difficult to use because most of your class features pull from the same pool, which is a little small, and mark of damnation is just cruel. The class isn't that strong that it needs a penalty for dying.

Glad you like Factotum/Chameleon. It can be a bit demanding depending on how strong you want to make it.

Death Master is quite solid, it won't control quite as many undead as a Dread Necromancer, but it's really not necessary to have that many. It trades it for a lot more utility spells, (and good ones at that) as well has having the earliest access (without doing weird stuff) to animate dead in the game, gaining it at level 3.

As for discussions of Mage of the Arcane Order, it's useful for the same reason Skypledge would be useful. It allows a straightforward means of some degree of spontaneous casting as a prepared caster. While the same can be done with some feat choices, those feats might be used for other things. More importantly, the spellpool gives access to spells that a wizard might not necessarily have. Not every DM gives wizards free unlimited access to the spellbooks of other wizards, and not everybody feels like spending all their money on scrolls (plus some DMs might not have every town stocked with a every scroll).

*snipped out of spoiler*
Is your plan to use your arbitrarily high Cha to overcome your crippled animate dead cap? Because Dread Necromancer's cap is based off of class level, not character level, after level 8.

*snip*

Wait, crippled animate dead cap? *digs up dread necromancer and looks over the class ability again* huh. I always assumed that the math for dread necromancer's cap worked out like this:
Normal animate dead HD cap- 4xcaster level
Dread Necromancer HD cap- (4+cha mod)x caster level
but the way it's written, it works like this:
Dread Necromancer HD cap- (4+cha mod) x Dread Necromancer Class level
Which means that Dread Necromancer can get a very high cap indeed, since cha is also their casting stat anyway. However, if you take any prestige class levels, or multiclass, you're shooting yourself in the foot for animating and controlling undead. This means you can't pick up prestige classes, and while you could normally make up for some of the issues of dead casting levels with practiced spellcaster on most classes, Dread Necromancer can't use this option with regards to animating and controlling undead. That's sad.
I prefer to believe that Dread Necromancer was meant to be written as caster level, thus allowing Dread Necromancers to take prestige classes without halting the scaling of their control cap. But that is admittedly not rules as written.

To get back to the topic, The Spellpool is a great class ability. Can't a wizard use it to prepare spells they don't know, then use that prepared spell in their head to scribe it into their spellbook (or into a scroll, then from scroll to spellbook). Of course, it requires someone to have put said spell into the spell pool, and you need to account for your spell debt, but that's a small hassle to pay for potential access to any given wizard spell. It also opens up potential retirement options for a wizard, by being a supplier of spells for the spell pool.

[Waazraath]

Never had a wilder at my table, nor anything from the shadowmagic and truename magic from Tome of Magic, hardly any Incarnum stuff. PHB classes I've seen all drop by at certain points since the introduction of 3.5.

[The Viscount]

Yeah, that bit about DN is a small detail, I definitely missed it my first couple readthroughs.

It's certainly possible that the writer intended it to be caster level or forgot how animate dead worked. Dread Necromancer is one of the most poorly written base classes in existence. Truenamer holds the crown (and rightly so), but the writer of DN doesn't seem to be aware of how to correctly use game terminology (and the skill list seems similarly confused).

Has anyone seen a spellthief in use? I want to like the class, but I find myself... not liking it.

[Nifft]

Yeah, that bit about DN is a small detail, I definitely missed it my first couple readthroughs.

It's certainly possible that the writer intended it to be caster level or forgot how animate dead worked. Dread Necromancer is one of the most poorly written base classes in existence. Truenamer holds the crown (and rightly so), but the writer of DN doesn't seem to be aware of how to correctly use game terminology (and the skill list seems similarly confused).

Has anyone seen a spellthief in use? I want to like the class, but I find myself... not liking it.

Factotum has a chunk of design & editorial dysfunction, too.

I've never seen a Factotum, Spellthief, Truenamer, Shadowcaster, or Dread Necromancer in play.

EDIT: Apparently the "right" way to play a Spellthief is to play a Wizard with one Spelltheif level and take Master Spellthief.

[Kantolin]

This is us. Most of our group has a hard enough time adapting to Tome of Battle; we stay away from anything Tome of Magic or Psionics to avoid further complication. It hasn't been a problem.

Oh, I didn't mean it was a /problem/ per se, haha. Just something I've noticed.

As an example, one of my friends really doesn't like spellcaster mechanics. Every time he plays a caster, he strongly dislikes dealing with both preparation or the spells per day system. He's then not fond of warmages (He tried that) because he doesn't like the quantity of options that gives him and it still has the spells per day system he's not as fond of. (There's no way he'd enjoy a beguiler nor a dread necromancer)

A wilder would be right up his alley and would fit his desires really well (He'd even really like the 'extra power but threat of daze' mechanic! Totally up his alley!), but I've never managed to convince him to give it a try.

But of course, it isn't going to kill him if he never does try one out. :P It'd just fit him so well that it's a pity he hasn't looked at it, as it's a fun option.

It'd also be a little easier on the DM if people would try out different classes, as otherwise you're more likely to get 'Ugh I can't sneak attack that' and 'Wow waves of exhaustion has no save' in the same group.

Edit:

Has anyone seen a spellthief in use? I want to like the class, but I find myself... not liking it.

I've seen the occasional spellthief. They tend to do alright, heh.

[Venger]

Factotum has a chunk of design & editorial dysfunction, too.

I've never seen a Factotum, Spellthief, Truenamer, Shadowcaster, or Dread Necromancer in play.

EDIT: Apparently the "right" way to play a Spellthief is to play a Wizard with one Spelltheif level and take Master Spellthief.

It does, but it's not too difficult to sort out. (not that the rules aren't dysfunctional, just that there's 3 or 4 options for a DM to adhere to in any case and once you pick one, you can play without hassle)

I've seen factotum/chameleon mentioned several times in the thread. I've been playing one for 5 years, and it's an immensely rewarding experience. it's a lot of bookkeeping, but it's been a great way to learn the magic system. I'd highly recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about magic.

factotum's an extremely fun class and unlike many, actually functions very well at low levels. I had to grind up from level 1, and its inspiration pool and martial weapon proficiencies were a real godsend.

I have neither seen, nor so much as heard of someone playing a dragon shaman. I can't feign surprise as to why, but I often find myself forgetting the class even exists.

the same is true for lurk, the base class so notoriously awful, it doesn't even have its own handbook. my girlfriend wanted to roll one once. fortunately I was able to show her psyrog instead.

[Sagetim]

Yeah, that bit about DN is a small detail, I definitely missed it my first couple readthroughs.

It's certainly possible that the writer intended it to be caster level or forgot how animate dead worked. Dread Necromancer is one of the most poorly written base classes in existence. Truenamer holds the crown (and rightly so), but the writer of DN doesn't seem to be aware of how to correctly use game terminology (and the skill list seems similarly confused).

Has anyone seen a spellthief in use? I want to like the class, but I find myself... not liking it.

The only time I saw a spellthief in use, it was a tragedy of awfulness. There were just not a lot of spellcaster opponents, and even those that did exist didn't provide the spell thief with enough of an opportunity to actually use their spell thieving powers. We weren't looking at things like 'master spellthief' or whatever it was, so while there might be some redemption to the class, it just requires a kind of play style that I don't see many players supporting. The kind of play style where you have the rogue set up a surprise round before combat starts. Great for assassins using death attacks, and other kinds of shenanigans...but I just haven't seen a lot of players willing to wait for a rogue to set that kind of thing up or join them in setting up an ambush.

It's just kind of...by the time you would get more than one spell out of a caster, they're probably well on their way to dead in my experience. If not dead already.

Edit: Lurk has never caught the eye of anyone in my group(s), and I've seen a dragon shaman played once. It didn't work out well.

[The Viscount]

I've used dragon shaman in at least one Iron Chef for its healing aura. I've heard of them being used from time to time as a sort of 5th party member.

If Lurk got free ranged augment as a bonus feat and wasn't expected to spend its PP on augments, do you think it would be playable?

If we're talking about Lurk, we've got to talk about its partner in crime, Divine Mind. It's a bizarre blend of paladin design applied to psionics, marshal, and your worst nightmares. It's a class so bad even its fluff is mystifying.

For that matter I haven't heard much talk of ardent, but I've seen some, and it seems like a decent class.

Has anyone seen marshal used for more than a dip or small splash? I like the class a lot, even though I know it's sub-par.

[Sagetim]

I've used dragon shaman in at least one Iron Chef for its healing aura. I've heard of them being used from time to time as a sort of 5th party member.

If Lurk got free ranged augment as a bonus feat and wasn't expected to spend its PP on augments, do you think it would be playable?

If we're talking about Lurk, we've got to talk about its partner in crime, Divine Mind. It's a bizarre blend of paladin design applied to psionics, marshal, and your worst nightmares. It's a class so bad even its fluff is mystifying.

For that matter I haven't heard much talk of ardent, but I've seen some, and it seems like a decent class.

Has anyone seen marshal used for more than a dip or small splash? I like the class a lot, even though I know it's sub-par.

Whenever I see the Divine Mind my mind blurs back to playing a diablo 2 paladin and I just smile at all the fun I had and say 'well, if it had a full bab I'd try one.'

[ben-zayb]

Has anyone seen a spellthief in use? I want to like the class, but I find myself... not liking it.Never seen it actually played without abusing master spellthief, and only as dip if I did. For a class that's really good at stealing magic, I find it funny that the rather mundane Sleight of Hand is a cross class skill.

[Dondasch]

I have neither seen, nor so much as heard of someone playing a dragon shaman. I can't feign surprise as to why, but I often find myself forgetting the class even exists.

I've sen one played. It was bland and unsatisfying.

The big problem is that most of the abilities are weak, and draconic auras scale slowly. Plus, the breath weapon isn't usable often enough. The infrequency of the breath weapon also causes MAD, because you need Con for hp and breath DC, Str to be useful in between breaths, and Cha for class features. You still want Dex for AC and Int for skill points.


the same is true for lurk, the base class so notoriously awful, it doesn't even have its own handbook.

It does too (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1376.0)!

[Troacctid]

I've DM'd for a Spellthief. He did okay--he was pretty much just a Rogue with a few spells in his bag of tricks. Steal Spell mostly came up in the context of borrowing invocations from the party's Eldritch Disciple.

[Venger]

I've used dragon shaman in at least one Iron Chef for its healing aura. I've heard of them being used from time to time as a sort of 5th party member.

If Lurk got free ranged augment as a bonus feat and wasn't expected to spend its PP on augments, do you think it would be playable?

If we're talking about Lurk, we've got to talk about its partner in crime, Divine Mind. It's a bizarre blend of paladin design applied to psionics, marshal, and your worst nightmares. It's a class so bad even its fluff is mystifying.

For that matter I haven't heard much talk of ardent, but I've seen some, and it seems like a decent class.

Has anyone seen marshal used for more than a dip or small splash? I like the class a lot, even though I know it's sub-par.

dragon shaman is a fifth wheel indeed. I think the warlock handbook put it best regarding fifth wheels:


Congratulations: you've just become the fifth wheel. The problem gets worse if you happen to be bad enough at each of these roles, as the brute has to waste hit points protecting you in combat, the face has to struggle through a social encounter to get past your blunders, the scout hardly sees the point in your even trying to look, and you and the sneak get exposed when you fail your Move Silently check. At this point, you've gone from fifth wheel to spare tire: you're literally only useful when one of the four falls flat, and they only need you to get you to the next stop so they can patch up the old one (or replace you with a new one).

divine mind makes me cry.

ardent seems somewhat popular online. I think (un)inspired has actually played one. he educated me on some intricacies of the magic mantle so at least one person has played one.

I've never heard of someone using it as a primary class though. it looks relatively solid.

[Sagetim]

dragon shaman is a fifth wheel indeed. I think the warlock handbook put it best regarding fifth wheels:



divine mind makes me cry.

ardent seems somewhat popular online. I think (un)inspired has actually played one. he educated me on some intricacies of the magic mantle so at least one person has played one.

I've never heard of someone using it as a primary class though. it looks relatively solid.

I Have seen someone play one, from the other side of the DM screen. It was a faerun evil characters sandbox campaign. The party had a beguiler, a true necromancer (I think it was wizard/archivist, might have been wizard/cleric), a fighter (who had a thing for using a scythe), an Ardent and a Dragon Shaman. Part way through the Dragon Shaman gave up because...well, the class is pretty awful and they had invested all their levels in it. Being a straight level 9 dragon shaman just seems to have made it's problems worse. The Ardent remained an Ardent the entire way through, no prestige or multiclassing. The Fighter was a straight fighter all the way through, and I think the beguiler was too.

The Ardent did just fine, but some of his mantle choices were dictated by wanting to have powers of a level appropriate to his manifester level, instead of being determined by a specific character choice to include that kind of mantle in their philosophical outlook. Which is kind of a problem for the class- if you want to pick up powers appropriate to your manifester each time you get a power, you're going to Have to pick mantles based on what powers it offers at what level instead of what mantle fits your concept best. This is the kind of problem that would be solved by having more mantles.

[marphod]

EDIT: Apparently the "right" way to play a Spellthief is to play a Wizard with one Spelltheif level and take Master Spellthief.

The 'Right' way to play a Spellthief is to find the ACF that lets you get full bard spell progression, but only 1d6 SA. (It is in a dragon mag issue).

Fixes the Spellthief's major weakness (not enough spells to do anything).

Master Spellthief helps a lot on its own, really. Whether you multiclass or not.

Really, there are a lot of better Homebrew versions of the Spellthief in existence. The class is underpowered in similar ways to the Hexblade.

[Nifft]

The Ardent did just fine, but some of his mantle choices were dictated by wanting to have powers of a level appropriate to his manifester level, instead of being determined by a specific character choice to include that kind of mantle in their philosophical outlook. Which is kind of a problem for the class- if you want to pick up powers appropriate to your manifester each time you get a power, you're going to Have to pick mantles based on what powers it offers at what level instead of what mantle fits your concept best. This is the kind of problem that would be solved by having more mantles.
To be fair to Psionics, though, they scale in ways that mean you don't actually need powers of your maximum power level to be awesome.

Like, if you pick up Astral Construct at level 10, it's awesome, even though it's a 1st level power.

[Venger]

To be fair to Psionics, though, they scale in ways that mean you don't actually need powers of your maximum power level to be awesome.

Like, if you pick up Astral Construct at level 10, it's awesome, even though it's a 1st level power.

While that's absolutely true in a vacuum for things like astral construct or energy x, it is dependent on what mantles he picked, so if he had ones with nonscaling/poorly scaling powers, that could've been a problem, since his DM from the sound of things didn't let him roll his own.

[Troacctid]

Really, there are a lot of better Homebrew versions of the Spellthief in existence. The class is underpowered in similar ways to the Hexblade.

Nooooo blasphemy Hexblade is so bad and Spellthief is totally fine

See, the thing about Spellthief is, it's still basically a Rogue, except they trade away 2 skill points per level and some sneak attack dice for what is essentially a big fat bonus to UMD (activating wands without a check, plus getting some spells built-in as free charges). You can totally ignore the Steal Spell gimmick and that's still a solid trade. (Especially considering it unlocks Obtain Familiar as an option, which is great on a skill monkey and gives you some nice action economy shenanigans.) If you happen to fight casters, then you've got a great trick up your sleeve, and if you don't, you can still double up on the party Warlock's all-day buffs.

Hexblade, on the other hand, is made of pure 100% concentrated fail.

[Sagetim]

Nooooo blasphemy Hexblade is so bad and Spellthief is totally fine

See, the thing about Spellthief is, it's still basically a Rogue, except they trade away 2 skill points per level and some sneak attack dice for what is essentially a big fat bonus to UMD (activating wands without a check, plus getting some spells built-in as free charges). You can totally ignore the Steal Spell gimmick and that's still a solid trade. (Especially considering it unlocks Obtain Familiar as an option, which is great on a skill monkey and gives you some nice action economy shenanigans.) If you happen to fight casters, then you've got a great trick up your sleeve, and if you don't, you can still double up on the party Warlock's all-day buffs.

Hexblade, on the other hand, is made of pure 100% concentrated fail.

That assumes your party has a warlock. Sure, you can get some great synergy by borrowing some warlock powers, but that's not the same as having useful stand alone abilities.


Anyway, on the Ardent: I had to help him build the character because no one else knew how psionics worked. He still had the final say in all aspects of his character, (especially after play had started and he saw in action how augmenting works). What seemed to be the main problem to me for the Ardent is that if you wanted to be useful in combat, you had to pick certain mantles. And you could wind up at certain levels without any powers to pick. I can't remember the exact combination, but there is a way to pick mantles that results in running out of low level powers to pick before you get a high enough manifester level to get any of the mid level powers in those mantles. So my input was mostly trying to ensure that something like that didn't happen. And that he could continue being a contributing member of the party so that he wouldn't feel left out when combat happened. As the campaign went on and he learned how psionics worked by using his powers and such, I didn't need to hold his hand for his build anymore. But the Ardent is still trickier to build as a character because you can have levels where you gain powers known but have no options to fill said powers known with.

[Venger]

Nooooo blasphemy Hexblade is so bad and Spellthief is totally fine

See, the thing about Spellthief is, it's still basically a Rogue, except they trade away 2 skill points per level and some sneak attack dice for what is essentially a big fat bonus to UMD (activating wands without a check, plus getting some spells built-in as free charges). You can totally ignore the Steal Spell gimmick and that's still a solid trade. (Especially considering it unlocks Obtain Familiar as an option, which is great on a skill monkey and gives you some nice action economy shenanigans.) If you happen to fight casters, then you've got a great trick up your sleeve, and if you don't, you can still double up on the party Warlock's all-day buffs.

Hexblade, on the other hand, is made of pure 100% concentrated fail.

Very solid points.

Hexblade is a greek tragedy. Its list is so good. It's a pity it can barely cast spells. It reminds me a lot of soulborn.

[Nifft]

While that's absolutely true in a vacuum for things like astral construct or energy x, it is dependent on what mantles he picked, so if he had ones with nonscaling/poorly scaling powers, that could've been a problem, since his DM from the sound of things didn't let him roll his own.

Yeah, that's all true. It's very dependent upon having a set of mantles with enough awesome low-level powers.


That assumes your party has a warlock. Sure, you can get some great synergy by borrowing some warlock powers, but that's not the same as having useful stand alone abilities.

I might consider playing a Spelltheif in a party with a Warlock, a Dragonfire Adept, and a Cleric or Druid who didn't mind sharing.

[Pluto!]

I've played so many Lurks, Divine Minds and Hexblades that I don't think my group will ever call them underplayed, even though basically no one else uses any of them.

And truth be told, of them, I think the Lurk gets a much worse rep than it deserves. One Hidden Talent feat at level 1 and ideally a racial natural weapon, and combat is a reasonable exercise, and boh of the ACFs give worthwhile noncombat skills. Lurk's not breaking anything a PsyWar couldn't, but it's hardly the T5 it's made out to be.

[Troacctid]

There are people who think Lurk is T5?! Did they just not read their power list or something?

[Venger]

There are people who think Lurk is T5?! Did they just not read their power list or something?

that's where it's put in the tier list and as we've discussed, many people have never seen or even heard of one in actual play.

[Nifft]

There are people who think Lurk is T5?! Did they just not read their power list or something?

I thought that had to do with their paltry power-point pool, which meant that they couldn't actually use their powers or class features enough to get through the day.

However, I'm in the group who has never seen one in play, so that's just supposition on my part.

[Invader]

Very solid points.

Hexblade is a greek tragedy. Its list is so good. It's a pity it can barely cast spells. It reminds me a lot of soulborn.

I must have just had a good experience with my hexblade because it didn't seem that bad to me.

Is the general dislike of them without the suggested fixes or even with them? I played with them and had fairly decent stats and I was in a group with average optimization but I never felt like I wasn't contributing.

Granted without using the fixes, I'd probably never play one.

[Troacctid]

If you used a fix, then you weren't really experiencing the Hexblade as printed.

[Venger]

I must have just had a good experience with my hexblade because it didn't seem that bad to me.

Is the general dislike of them without the suggested fixes or even with them? I played with them and had fairly decent stats and I was in a group with average optimization but I never felt like I was contributing.

Granted without using the fixes, I'd probably never play one.

Yeah we're talking about hb as printed. the fix helps a little, but as you said, it doesn't change a whole lot.

[Grim Reader]

Hexblade is a greek tragedy. Its list is so good. It's a pity it can barely cast spells. It reminds me a lot of soulborn.


Hexblade, on the other hand, is made of pure 100% concentrated fail.

My fix for the Hexblade was to give it Hexes.

Come on, with that name it was kindof begging for it.

Witch Hex progression, familiar teching familiar spell option, a Patron, good Fort save. A feat to quicken individual Hexes, and the Hexblades curse becomes a swift action Hex gained at level one.

Balances well with Pathfinder classes, I found.

[Invader]

If you used a fix, then you weren't really experiencing the Hexblade as printed.

Well it's the fix that author reccomends particularly because of the classes shortcomings and one I thought was fairly commonly used so it's hardly out of the realm of possibility. Regardless, that's exactly why I asked if people were still so unhappy with it specifically after the reccomended fixes or only before them.

You'll note I did say without them it's easy to see why it's so bad.

[Invader]

Yeah we're talking about hb as printed. the fix helps a little, but as you said, it doesn't change a whole lot.

That was actually a typo. I never felt like I wasn't contributing.

[ranagrande]

In my experience, the most underrepresented base classes are Eidolon and Eidoloncer. I have never seen either of these played in a game. I have never even seen either of these used in a build online.

[Venger]

In my experience, the most underrepresented base classes are Eidolon and Eidoloncer. I have never seen either of these played in a game. I have never even seen either of these used in a build online.

well you have to play in a ghostwalk game where everyone's ghosts and even then, the classes aren't much good.

[Pluto!]

Eidolon and Eidowhatever also bear the proud titles of the two classes that could kill you just for hitting second level, no save.

[Sagetim]

Eidolon and Eidowhatever also bear the proud titles of the two classes that could kill you just for hitting second level, no save.

Wait, What? Explain that for the people without access/too lazy to look up how that works?

[ranagrande]

Wait, What? Explain that for the people without access/too lazy to look up how that works?
It's one of the many odd rules in Ghostwalk, The Calling. If a character gains more levels in the ghost classes (Eidolon and Eidoloncer) than the total sum of levels gained while the character was alive, that character moves on to its "True Afterlife."

[DrKerosene]

Eidolon and Eidowhatever also bear the proud titles of the two classes that could kill you just for hitting second level, no save.

I let someone take two levels of Eidolon, with a few levels of Savage Progression Ghost, to get Corpse Ride (possess a 1HD undead puppet) and Lesser Malevolence (shorter-term racially limited possession). It seemed better than full Savage Progression Ghost.

In my games, tier 1-2 are under-represented, all the psionic classes, ToM, and any PrCs too.

I've had two Swordsages, but that's it for ToB.

All my players, except three, have been averse to magic use.

[ben-zayb]

It's one of the many odd rules in Ghostwalk, The Calling. If a character gains more levels in the ghost classes (Eidolon and Eidoloncer) than the total sum of levels gained while the character was alive, that character moves on to its "True Afterlife."
Wow, I can't say if that's worse than Risen Martyr, but it's in the same ballpark.

I have never seen a Knight in any games I played, compared to playing with at least 2 CW Samurai PCs. Also no non-Swift Hunter Scout ever, compared to plenty of Rogues of all sorts of build, and 2 Ninjas.

[Pluto!]

The Calling also has a convenient sidebar making the humble suggestion of just ignoring all the rules on that page. You can tell that even the writers thought it was a terrible idea, but couldn't help but shove it in anyway.

I wanted to like Ghostwalk, but stuff like that just made it completely unusable.

[The Viscount]

The decision to make ghosts outsiders makes it exceptionally difficult to use alongside other things.