Starting Age - How do you handle abuse?

[pwykersotz]

I get asked questions like this a lot. "I'm an elf and I'm 400 years old. I've got proficiency in blacksmithing. Can I have been making a sword every month for the last 380 years and sell them? Or just outfit the entire party with the several suits of fullplate I've made and tons of weapons?"

My answer is generally no, though occasionally I'll let them provide some party resources. I can manage the mechanics, but my imagination isn't extending to justifying the reason. My basic thought process is the longer lived races aren't human and don't try to cram as much into a short period of time like us short-lived folk. They are less curious, less ambitious, less afraid of death. But this is difficult to articulate to a person who doesn't want to see it.

So that being said, does anyone have any in-game ways to explain why the races with longer lives can't/don't abuse their starting age?

[strangebloke]

Why would you start making swords at 20 when you can just spend a couple hundred years playing music and hanging out with your friends while you live off of your parent's stuff?

So yeah, your explanation works. Also, just play the 'why?' game. Why is this blacksmith saving all of this money? Why did he start working at such a young age? How did he come to own his own blacksmith shop while still a child? Why do people go to him and not the ancient, crotchety elf who's been making weapons for centuries?

If he's living among humans... these don't stick as well. But then you can just play the racism card.

Really this isn't a table problem, its a player problem.

[Scarab112]

Sure, they can be a blacksmith who used to make swords and have made a bunch of money. Of course, since the rules for starting equipment don't allow for extra money like that, there should also be an explanation in their backstory as to why they no longer have that money. Perhaps their village was attacked by bandits, and they only escaped with a fraction of their fortune? Maybe one of their loved ones was kidnapped, and they had to use their funds to pay the ransom?

There's a lot of interesting options, and having a character that used to be wealthy allows for a lot of interesting character traits and possible plot hooks.

But no, you shouldn't allow players to start with extra money. There's far too many ways to abuse that even without taking crafting skills.

[pibby]

You're player definitely isn't taking into account how actual markets work or unforeseen incidents. Like at best he supplies an army but he would have never created their entire armory, unless he was the first blacksmith to ever supply them armor and weapons.

It's also really strange that a character would optimize their entire life for a potential party he may or may not ever work with.

As a DM I'm not one to interfere with a player's character idea. But if their character's ideals would warrant an advantage over and beyond normal character creation (ie, my uncle handed me down all of old adventuring gear, including some artifacts!) the answer is always no.

[Ralanr]

Just because they've been doing it for over 100 years doesn't mean they're good. Elf PC monks always start at level one, whether they're 16 or 300 years old.

I wonder if longer lived races have a higher rate of extreme learning disorders.

[strangebloke]

Just because they've been doing it for over 100 years doesn't mean they're good. Elf PC monks always start at level one, whether they're 16 or 300 years old.

I wonder if longer lived races have a higher rate of extreme learning disorders.

I just always assumed that elves were incredibly lazy. Think like the Asari from mass effect, who spend several hundred years as prostitutes just for the fun of it.

[Ralanr]

I just always assumed that elves were incredibly lazy. Think like the Asari from mass effect, who spend several hundred years as prostitutes just for the fun of it.

"It's not like a human where you hang out for a 100 years".

They can basically pull off being an entire race of gold diggers.

[SharkForce]

sure you can have spent the last 380 years crafting. as per downtime, you earned a comfortable lifestyle for the period of time you spent crafting, or alternately, you could not earn a lifestyle and just starve to death retroactively instead (it's your choice, no pressure).

feel free to write down "380 years of comfortable lifestyle (already used)" on your character sheet if you'd like. you should be aware that there isn't much of a market for used-up lifestyle though.

(note: just because you can make 5 gp worth of stuff per day, doesn't mean you *earn* that per day after expenses etc. what you earn is the amount of lifestyle you can maintain by crafting, just like what you earn by doing a profession is the lifestyle you can maintain while working. just because you can craft 5 gp per day doesn't mean you don't need to come up with the money to maintain your lifestyle while not working for income and especially doesn't mean you don't need to pay for materials etc)

slightly less tongue-in-cheek: the stuff you have at level 1 is what you've managed to accumulate over the course of your life. no, it isn't much. that's probably why you decided to try going into dark holes in the ground full of things that want to kill you and eat you (or worse), not necessarily in that order, as a way of life, instead of continuing to make swords for other people to be stupid with.

[Xetheral]

As a DM I'm not one to interfere with a player's character idea. But if their character's ideals would warrant an advantage over and beyond normal character creation (ie, my uncle handed me down all of old adventuring gear, including some artifacts!) the answer is always no.

If a player wants to start with an artifact, I'd always say yes. Of course, if they wanted to start with an artifact that they knew what it did... that's a totally different question.

[dropbear8mybaby]

It's really easy.

I just say no.

[Slipperychicken]

Just tell the player that he gets no wealth or benefit beyond what's specified in his background, class, and starting equipment. This is for balance reasons. He's free to invent reasons for this, subject to your approval.

[Malifice]

I get asked questions like this a lot. "I'm an elf and I'm 400 years old. I've got proficiency in blacksmithing. Can I have been making a sword every month for the last 380 years and sell them? Or just outfit the entire party with the several suits of fullplate I've made and tons of weapons?"

I feel sorry for you. I truly do.


So that being said, does anyone have any in-game ways to explain why the races with longer lives can't/don't abuse their starting age?

Because they're not human?

[Thisguy_]

Just as an aside, although she was completely exceptional for species (non-mechanically, but species) reasons, I built a five-year-old sorceress to play as once.

"The character," I have been told before, "who you are about to try and play as has just started their adventuring life. They also probably did not plan for it, or they'd have gone out and done it sooner."

Now what happens when it's the whole point? What if you have the kind of character who (as an elf) knows how long they have and feels as though they should have a very, very good plan ready to go (to the tune of decades of pre-work) before setting out?

[Mith]

You could also take Rich's idea of elves and dwarves developing at slower rates with "20 years in diapers" (paraphrased there, so I do not recall the actual quote).

The only time I've really heard of abusing starting age is with the idea presented in "Harry Potter and the Natural 20" fanfic where the protagonist takes a level in Commoner (which has no starting age0 and then retrains for levels in wizard to have 3 levels at the age of 11. But that's extreme munchkinery.

[Daishain]

Depends

If a player wants to have a business that they run, possibly including having resources to help out the party with, they're free to work out the details with me. This would however be a business that needs the player's input, and you aren't going to get much out of it while gallivanting about the countryside. In addition, if beginning at level one, the resources that business can provide are going to be temporarily curtailed by some means (poor market conditions, a recent robbery, etc.)

If a player just wants to make up a stockpile of money, armor, weapons and/or other stuff at the start of the campaign, the answer is no, period, no matter how it is justified. The DM is fully empowered to give munchkinry and other attempts to break game balance the middle finger.

To more directly answer the question about age abuse. If the abuse involves actions that are not realistic for a person to take (Such as keeping an armory with gear perfectly sized for people the PC has never met), then that person did not take those actions. Simple.

[snowman87]

I feel ya, dude. There's a player in my group that only wants bigger, more powerful weapons...constantly. He would never be happy with just a +1 magic sword. It would be so lame.

Simple physics should suffice for an answer. Metal doesn't last forever. Most of his inventory would have rusted or completely disintegrated by the time the party got together unless he spent all of his time maintaining them. 380+ swords and who-knows-how-many suits of armor would require a significant amount of time to service. He would spend all of his time working and doing nothing else...ever. He would need employees to do such work and you don't get those starting out.

[Shining Wrath]

How did he pay for his food, clothing, and shelter?

Subtract off 400 years worth of modest lifestyle. If you have enough money to run a business, you're not living wretched or squalid lifestyle.

Then ask why, after 400 years of blacksmithing, he's now a member of class X.

Make him pay for training into class X.

Guy probably doesn't have too much left.

[Vogonjeltz]

You could also take Rich's idea of elves and dwarves developing at slower rates with "20 years in diapers" (paraphrased there, so I do not recall the actual quote).

The only time I've really heard of abusing starting age is with the idea presented in "Harry Potter and the Natural 20" fanfic where the protagonist takes a level in Commoner (which has no starting age0 and then retrains for levels in wizard to have 3 levels at the age of 11. But that's extreme munchkinery.

In 3.5 juveniles don't have any stats. Thus they can't, even hypothetically, have 1 level of commoner.

As for age in 5th edition, it's irrelevent. Everyone's possessions at the start of play are determined by two things: Class and Background. If you're a noble, congratulations you get an extra 25gp. If you're a guild artisan, congrats, you have an extra 15gp. (Note even the poorest background, a hermit, gets +5gp.) So 400 year old elves are as well off as 100 year old elves.

[WickerNipple]

I get asked questions like this a lot.

Have you tried laughing at them? I find I get asked a lot less questions like that after the first time.

[strangebloke]

Counterpoint with the human noble sorceror. You get extra cash because you made a lot of swords? I'm a noble who craps magic, how come I don't have money?

[JNAProductions]

You're a minor noble, and the dragon blood brings up allegations of being a bastard. You fled with what little you had on you.

[Ralanr]

You're a minor noble, and the dragon blood brings up allegations of being a bastard. You fled with what little you had on you.

Easy to assume, what with all the dragonborn courtesans.

[strangebloke]

You're a minor noble, and the dragon blood brings up allegations of being a bastard. You fled with what little you had on you.


Easy to assume, what with all the dragonborn courtesans.

Ha! The point is, you can ask him why he gets to game the system but nobles don't get more extra money than they do. Realistically, there are plenty of ways for an adventurer to be short on cash.

[Daishain]

Ha! The point is, you can ask him why he gets to game the system but nobles don't get more extra money than they do. Realistically, there are plenty of ways for an adventurer to be short on cash.
True, but I do have to wonder why (outside of gamist reasons), to a man, all of our heroes have less than a month's worth of room and board left as their apparent life savings. A few people being dead broke is understandable but...

[JNAProductions]

Plot hook! You're all, for your own reasons, broke, and so a life of adventure is your only choice to make a living.

[Ralanr]

Plot hook! You're all, for your own reasons, broke, and so a life of adventure is your only choice to make a living.

That or become a criminal.

Really the only difference is who is in charge.

[rlc]

Tell them they're being a silly goose.

[JoeJ]

Sure, you could have been making a sword a month for the past 380 years. Sell them? You already did that! How else do you think you managed to afford 380 years of living expenses?

[kaoskonfety]

I somewhat get what they player is trying to do. Testing the limits of what is allowed and what not. The book outlines starting wealth, character age is not a factor. "Why am I so poor! I'm 400" is making a large stack of assumptions:
- elves value material wealth and have a roughly modern savings model (rather than a carefree live for the day and let tomorrow worry about tomorrow idea)
- taxation/living expenses doesn't make off with the bulk of their profit in coin
- the local authorities allow you to stockpile/mass produce weapons and armour
- the character didn't get astonishingly BORED

As people may have noticed most of the pricing in the PHB and DMG does not make sense if you dig into it and is mostly a backdrop for something the party to blow cash on when they are not fighting Orcs. After 400 years of smithing and making a fortune (apparently) what motivation does this fellow have to risk life limb and the next several hundred years of comforts for adventure? Does the player ACTUALLY want to play this guys son whose got a chip on his shoulder and something to prove?

Other solutions are very slow maturity or pull down the starting adventurer age (ie.: most elves who choose to adventure do so at the age of 20 and continue up to about 200, by which time they are expected to have got it out of their systems and be ready to settle down and start a forest kingdom or two with their filthy wealth, master smithing, state craft and wine-making and quietly settle into middle age over a couple of centuries. A large apology tithe to ones parents and grandparents for causing them worry is customary.)

Otherwise, since they seem so keen on the idea, I'd be inclined to let the player start with the standard gear and a well stocked smithy of their very own as a custom background feature (maybe a small cost reduction in raw materials). "Should" they rationally have more wealth? Probably. But they are a well established pillar of the community with a house and a reliable business - this is cool and does not give them combat bonuses. They will of course need to hire/train someone to man the forge now that they are taking up a new exciting career as a Murder Hobo.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the OP:

There are at least a few mid to high level thieves running about in the game world. It appears that this 380 year old elven smith, he of comfortable living, just got stolen from by some very good thieves. Think of it as The Brinks Job or Oceans Eleven.

He's broke. And he's not quite sure who did it! :smallcool:

[Shining Wrath]

For the OP:

There are at least a few mid to high level thieves running about in the game world. It appears that this 380 year old elven smith, he of comfortable living, just got stolen from by some very good thieves. Think of it as The Brinks Job or Oceans Eleven.

He's broke. And he's not quite sure who did it! :smallcool:

And his Goal is to find out; and his Flaw is that every person he sees with a long sword he suspects of either being the thief, or having bought the sword from them.

[Gritmonger]

Just demand the documentation. He doesn't have a pile of swords - he has an arsenal of unique weapons he slaved over for years, which he keeps perfectly polished and oiled and stored, sharpened for the eventual apocalypse that he is sure is on its way. Why else would he store them up all these years? Every one has to have a name, date of manufacture, and who it's meant to be used by. Are they all longswords with no variation? Doubtful, if he has any pride after four hundred years.

Where are they stored? There, huh? Is there a map? Does anyone else know where this stockpile of legendary quality weapons is kept?

What if this isn't the apocalypse he was waiting for? Would he be willing to blow all of his potential stock in one go for a mistake?

What would be the impact of unleashing this arsenal on the local economy - and what effect would it have on the local lords to know somebody was stockpiling enough to outfit an army?

I can see all sorts of potential difficulties and problems and issues with this plan - answering them might eventually discourage the player, or make the player come up with one of the more colorful characters out of an originally exploitative plan.

[Baptor]

I am currently in my thirties and have been working various jobs since I was 16. Not all of that time was minimum wage, but for the sake of argument let's assume I made an average of something along minimum wage since that time. Calculating it up at 40 hours per week, I will have made $233,856 by the time I was 30 years old.

Under the player's philosophy, I should either have $233,000 in the bank right now or that much in hard assets.

I assure you I have neither.

[KnightOfV]

Tell him to stop thinking like a human if he's playing an elf. :smallcool:

As an elf, you gave away everything you made to those in your community, as elves do not use money among their own kind.

Or conversely,

As an elf, you were forbidden from taking any of your possessions or wares with you when you left your homeland.

Or instead, if the player is really being stupid about it...

As a level one character, a bunch of bandits beat you up and took your stockpile of swords and armor that you were foolishly trying to lug around by yourself. You can go after them, but they're really well equipped with all that stuff you've been making for 200 years. And have hired a lot of extra guards with all the money you made, but didn't spend for some reason. :smallamused:

[Alejandro]

The PC would need a lot of specifics to pull that off.

- A place to work that is and has been secure for centuries
- Constant supplies of fuel and iron, which might or might not be easy in elvish lands
- A very stoic, focused attitude, living for their work
- An immense customer base and little competition from outsiders

Wait... are you SURE they aren't actually a dwarf?

[Stan]

This is part of a larger problem that a few players try to start off better than the other players. Instead of money, it's often skills or abilities. "I wrote down in my character that I used to be on the night watch at my home town. I get Perception skill for that don't I?" Did you select perception? Then, no.

You don't have to have in game reasons against it. It's called fair play. Everyone has more fun if they are more or less equal and have equal ability to affect the world. I don't have time for the munchkin who needs to be better than everyone else by making up reasons to get extras or who tries to infer things in RAW that are obviously not RAI.

Everyone starts with the same character building resources. If they want something, they have to get it as part of normal character building, writing it in the background or trying to make up reasons for extras are nonstarters. I'm flexible and will let players switch out things not normally available to a background /race/class, dropping X to get Y. But they don't get Y for free.

[Shining Wrath]

This is part of a larger problem that a few players try to start off better than the other players. Instead of money, it's often skills or abilities. "I wrote down in my character that I used to be on the night watch at my home town. I get Perception skill for that don't I?" Did you select perception? Then, no.

You don't have to have in game reasons against it. It's called fair play. Everyone has more fun if they are more or less equal and have equal ability to affect the world. I don't have time for the munchkin who needs to be better than everyone else by making up reasons to get extras or who tries to infer things in RAW that are obviously not RAI.

Everyone starts with the same character building resources. If they want something, they have to get it as part of normal character building, writing it in the background or trying to make up reasons for extras are nonstarters. I'm flexible and will let players switch out things not normally available to a background /race/class, dropping X to get Y. But they don't get Y for free.

I think backgrounds are templates, although current campaign everyone took a standard one.

One guy I let trade Expertise in Arcana rolls for Disadvantage on all History rolls. He was a nerd wizard who just didn't get out much.

[Chadamantium]

Well he has to contend with his life style expenses, business expenses, what if there is a slow month. Maybe a he borrows from a loan shark and then can't pay right away. They take his shop until he can pay back plus ridiculous interest forcing him to adventure to come up with fast cash. What about people working under him. They also need to be paid. He gets a new apprentice who he has to train. That eats into profits as he shows him the way of doing things. If they quit on him then he's out money and an extra hand. This of why a lot of small businesses fail.

This blacksmith needs to hire an accountant to keep his money in order.