Allip Minions?

[Alistaroc]

So... I'm experimenting with a Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10 build with lots of undead minions, and I really kinda want an Allip as a minion. Would there be a way to create them, for example, with peasant corpses, rather than going and finding one to command every time one dies?

[Eno Remnant]

Allips are created from those who were driven to suicide by madness. Find a peasant, torture them into insanity, Animate Dead. Simple yet effective.

[Extra Anchovies]

Pathfinder lets you create Allips with Create Greater Undead at CL 15+. A bit late, but it works.

Alternately, Summon Undead IV is 3.5-native and lets you summon an Allip for a time.


Allips are created from those who were driven to suicide by madness. Find a peasant, torture them into insanity, Animate Dead. Simple yet effective.

Animate Dead only creates skeletons or zombies.

[frogglesmash]

The Shrouds of the Unholy (fund on this page (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)) will let you create an allip. Otherwise short of naming Madness and driving someone to suicide à la Madness Tarrasque killer I don't think there's any way to get an allip without DM intervention.

[Alistaroc]

Pathfinder lets you create Allips with Create Greater Undead at CL 15+. A bit late, but it works.

Alternately, Summon Undead IV is 3.5-native and lets you summon an Allip for a time.



Animate Dead only creates skeletons or zombies.

Hmm... I'm looknig for 3.5 as opposed to Pathfinder, so unfortunately that Create Undead won't work.
And can't you apply any template to creatures raised with n Animate Dead spell? Or is there some other spell/method that lets you raise undead with other templates?


Allips are created from those who were driven to suicide by madness. Find a peasant, torture them into insanity, Animate Dead. Simple yet effective.
This sounds nice. I can do this.


The Shrouds of the Unholy (fund on this page (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)) will let you create an allip. Otherwise short of naming Madness and driving someone to suicide à la Madness Tarrasque killer I don't think there's any way to get an allip without DM intervention.
Ooh, I like that item. But which type would an Allip fall under? Or for that matter, any other undead not on the spell lists?

[frogglesmash]

Ooh, I like that item. But which type would an Allip fall under? Or for that matter, any other undead not on the spell lists?

Type? It's an allip, just like a mohrg's a mohrg or a spectre's a spectre. And why are you bringing spell lists into this? The whole point of the shroud is that it ignores spell lists.

[Brova]

Grab planar binding somewhere*. Bind a whisper demon. This demon, among other things, turns anyone who kills themselves within 60ft into an allip and causes people within 60ft to periodically stab themselves. It controls allips made in this way, but only to a limit of nine. So just find ten peasants with greatswords, lock them in a room with your pet whisper demon, and grab your allip a few minutes later.

*: Rule of thumb - 90% of "how do I get X monster" questions involve planar binding.

[Alistaroc]

Type? It's an allip, just like a mohrg's a mohrg or a spectre's a spectre. And why are you bringing spell lists into this? The whole point of the shroud is that it ignores spell lists.
I mean do I need the animate dead version for 1,550gp or the 12,250gp create undead version, or the 16k create greater undead version? I suppose I was unclear on "spell lists.":smallfrown:


Grab planar binding somewhere*. Bind a whisper demon. This demon, among other things, turns anyone who kills themselves within 60ft into an allip and causes people within 60ft to periodically stab themselves. It controls allips made in this way, but only to a limit of nine. So just find ten peasants with greatswords, lock them in a room with your pet whisper demon, and grab your allip a few minutes later.

*: Rule of thumb - 90% of "how do I get X monster" questions involve planar binding.
Hmm... we're getting potentially a little cheesy here... but... maybe...

But wait, how can I get Planar Binding as a Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10? Short of a custom planar binding item from our Artificer, I can't cast it.



An Ephemeral Swarm is another interesting undead minion(I love swarms, and adding incorporeal? Sign me up!) I don't suppose there's a RAW method, unless killing a swarm of rats and casting animate dead counts.



EDIT: That item of Planar Binding would cost ~30k to make, or ~1,500gp for a single use item.

[frogglesmash]

I mean do I need the animate dead version for 1,550gp or the 12,250gp create undead version, or the 16k create greater undead version? I suppose I was unclear on "spell lists.":smallfrown:

Imma level with you, the shroud is incredibly poorly edited. Its descriptive text makes no mention of different shroud types, spell lists or any other limiting factor it only says that "the body will return as undead," and that "the type of undead it returns as is determined by the speaker of the command word." What this means is that you could take the cheapest version of the shroud, wrap a body in it, and have yourself a free roaming Demilich for the low low price ten minutes 1,550 gp. Is it broken? Yes. Is it RAW? Also yes. What about RAI? Almost certainly not. Will your DM let it fly? Probably depends on the DM and how much you abuse the item.

[Brova]

Hmm... we're getting potentially a little cheesy here... but... maybe...

But wait, how can I get Planar Binding as a Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10? Short of a custom planar binding item from our Artificer, I can't cast it.

There are three spells that can get you the service of the 12 HD whisper demon*. First is planar binding, which can be used to bind any demon or elemental of 12 HD or less. Second is planar ally, which is similar but does not allow you to select a specific creature, making it something of a tossup (also it costs XP). Finally, limited wish can emulate planar binding as it is a 6th level or lower Sorcerer/Wizard spell and not of a school you have prohibited (as a Cleric you presumably have no prohibited schools). limited wish also costs XP.

Ease of access varies. planar ally is simply a Cleric spell, which you can cast no questions asked. planar binding is, as you have noted, not a Cleric spell by default. Fortunately, it appears on some domain lists. Unfortunately, those domains are available only to people willing to worship various demon lords. Finally, limited wish can be found on the lists of either the Envy or Spell domains. Those are both pretty sweet domains, so I would recommend doing that (unless you can convince your DM to swing you a whisper demon out of planar ally).

Finally, you might summon one with a Candle of Invocation. That's playing with fire though.

*: Subject to caveats such as "off the top of my head" and "that are usable at your level".

[Extra Anchovies]

Bind a whisper demon. This demon, among other things, turns anyone who kills themselves within 60ft into an allip and causes people within 60ft to periodically stab themselves.

I can certainly tell why. One look at this ugly mug and I'd be reaching for my dagger:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98680.jpg
Like, come on. How can someone make a living off that sort of stuff? It looks like someone else made a perfectly good drawing of a weird demon-ghost and England slapped on a poorly-drawn face that had been vertically stretched.

[Alistaroc]

There are three spells that can get you the service of the 12 HD whisper demon*. First is planar binding, which can be used to bind any demon or elemental of 12 HD or less. Second is planar ally, which is similar but does not allow you to select a specific creature, making it something of a tossup (also it costs XP). Finally, limited wish can emulate planar binding as it is a 6th level or lower Sorcerer/Wizard spell and not of a school you have prohibited (as a Cleric you presumably have no prohibited schools). limited wish also costs XP.

Ease of access varies. planar ally is simply a Cleric spell, which you can cast no questions asked. planar binding is, as you have noted, not a Cleric spell by default. Fortunately, it appears on some domain lists. Unfortunately, those domains are available only to people willing to worship various demon lords. Finally, limited wish can be found on the lists of either the Envy or Spell domains. Those are both pretty sweet domains, so I would recommend doing that (unless you can convince your DM to swing you a whisper demon out of planar ally).

Finally, you might summon one with a Candle of Invocation. That's playing with fire though.

*: Subject to caveats such as "off the top of my head" and "that are usable at your level".
Considering I'm a Lawful Evil(probably) necromantic warrior, worshiping demon lords shouldn't be too much of a problem.* Which domains are they? Also, being Lawful Evil, could I call a Whisper Demon with Planar Ally?

*Added just because I frickin' love your asterisk disclaimers!:smalltongue:

[Alistaroc]

I can certainly tell why. One look at this ugly mug and I'd be reaching for my dagger:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98680.jpg
Like, come on. How can someone make a living off that sort of stuff? It looks like someone else made a perfectly good drawing of a weird demon-ghost and England slapped on a poorly-drawn face that had been vertically stretched.
Now that you mention it.... it does....
xD

[Brova]

Considering I'm a Lawful Evil(probably) necromantic warrior, worshiping demon lords shouldn't be too much of a problem.* Which domains are they? Also, being Lawful Evil, could I call a Whisper Demon with Planar Ally?

As a Lawful Evil Cleric, you can't worship any of the demon lords. But you can worship various devils. planar binding appears on the Diabolic domain, in both the Fiendish Codex and BoVD printings. That particular domain is offered by Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Mammon, and Mephistopheles.

The planar ally question is a bit trickier. The spell indicates that:


By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment.

My reading of that is that if you worship a god, you can get any creature in the game, but if you don't you're stuck with something that matches your alignment. So you can get a whisper demon, but only if a) you are personally chaotic evil or b) you worship a god. Oddly, it looks like you can worship a lawful good god and still get a demon from planar ally.

Your best bet is probably planar binding out of a domain.


*Added just because I frickin' love your asterisk disclaimers!:smalltongue:

Thanks!

[Alistaroc]

As a Lawful Evil Cleric, you can't worship any of the demon lords. But you can worship various devils. planar binding appears on the Diabolic domain, in both the Fiendish Codex and BoVD printings. That particular domain is offered by Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Mammon, and Mephistopheles.

The planar ally question is a bit trickier. The spell indicates that:



My reading of that is that if you worship a god, you can get any creature in the game, but if you don't you're stuck with something that matches your alignment. So you can get a whisper demon, but only if a) you are personally chaotic evil or b) you worship a god. Oddly, it looks like you can worship a lawful good god and still get a demon from planar ally.

Your best bet is probably planar binding out of a domain.



Thanks!
Why can't I worship Glasya? She's Lawful Evil, and so am I. If not, the Blood of Vol is a Lawful Evil god with the Death, Deathbound, and Necromncy domains.

[Alistaroc]

Imma level with you, the shroud is incredibly poorly edited. Its descriptive text makes no mention of different shroud types, spell lists or any other limiting factor it only says that "the body will return as undead," and that "the type of undead it returns as is determined by the speaker of the command word." What this means is that you could take the cheapest version of the shroud, wrap a body in it, and have yourself a free roaming Demilich for the low low price ten minutes 1,550 gp. Is it broken? Yes. Is it RAW? Also yes. What about RAI? Almost certainly not. Will your DM let it fly? Probably depends on the DM and how much you abuse the item.
What would you say is the most reasonable shroud for Allips? or Ephemeral Swarms?

[Brova]

Why can't I worship Glasya? She's Lawful Evil, and so am I. If not, the Blood of Vol is a Lawful Evil god with the Death, Deathbound, and Necromncy domains.

Well, the problem is that there are two domains which offer planar binding - Demonic and Diabolic. Those are available to a fairly select list of gods. AFAIK, Diabolic is only offered by the ones I've listed and Demonic is offered only by Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Orcus, and Yeenoghu. If you're picking, Demonic is slightly better as it also offers greater planar binding and gate. You might consider being a Cleric of a concept, probably the concept of totally hardcore undead minions, and just taking the Demonic and Deathbound domains.

[Alistaroc]

Well, the problem is that there are two domains which offer planar binding - Demonic and Diabolic. Those are available to a fairly select list of gods. AFAIK, Diabolic is only offered by the ones I've listed and Demonic is offered only by Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Orcus, and Yeenoghu. If you're picking, Demonic is slightly better as it also offers greater planar binding and gate. You might consider being a Cleric of a concept, probably the concept of totally hardcore undead minions, and just taking the Demonic and Deathbound domains.
http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Deities.pdf
According to this, Glasya has the Diabolic domain, but Mephistopholes would be a fine god too.
As for Demonic... I do like Orcus, but Chaotic Evil isn't exactly the flavor I'm going for(think Lich King). And gatecheese is strictly disallowed.

[frogglesmash]

What would you say is the most reasonable shroud for Allips? or Ephemeral Swarms?

If you want to go by the "guidelines" set out by WotC I'd say the Create Greater Undead version because they hold on giving you incorporeal undead until you have access to that spell.

[Brova]

http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Deities.pdf
According to this, Glasya has the Diabolic domain, but Mephistopholes would be a fine god too.
As for Demonic... I do like Orcus, but Chaotic Evil isn't exactly the flavor I'm going for(think Lich King). And gatecheese is strictly disallowed.

By all means, go for it then. I suggest grabbing the Domination domain, as it gives you a lot of spells to put into your domain slots for everyday use. It's a bit redundant conceptually, but there's some nice synergy between will based save or dies and allip minions.

Also, good call on the gate ban. That spell is nuts.

[Alistaroc]

By all means, go for it then. I suggest grabbing the Domination domain, as it gives you a lot of spells to put into your domain slots for everyday use. It's a bit redundant conceptually, but there's some nice synergy between will based save or dies and allip minions.

Also, good call on the gate ban. That spell is nuts.
So I just discovered the glory that is the Deathbound Domain... I think I'll go with that concept idea and take Deathbound+Diabolic, maybe worship someone like the Blood of Vol for flavor. That way I get more undead minions, and can use Planar Binding to grab some Whisper Demons.

Any suggestions on minions? My Cleric level command undead is being spent on a Young Adult Red Dracolich, then I have 40HD(max 10/creature) from Bone Knight, and then I'm allowed 78HD from spells(using the Deathbound Domain).

I could do 10 Allips, and then up to 6 Ephemeral Swarms... I don't really know what would be good at this level besides these stat-drain incorporeal buggers.

Thoughts?

[Brova]

So I just discovered the glory that is the Deathbound Domain... I think I'll go with that concept idea and take Deathbound+Diabolic, maybe worship someone like the Blood of Vol for flavor. That way I get more undead minions, and can use Planar Binding to grab some Whisper Demons.

Any suggestions on minions? My Cleric level command undead is being spent on a Young Adult Red Dracolich, then I have 40HD(max 10/creature) from Bone Knight, and then I'm allowed 78HD from spells(using the Deathbound Domain).

I could do 10 Allips, and then up to 6 Ephemeral Swarms... I don't really know what would be good at this level besides these stat-drain incorporeal buggers.

Thoughts?

Incorporeal minions are very good. Remember that most creatures have natural weapons which "count as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction", which is not sufficient to allow them to damage incorporeal creatures by RAW. A pile of allips is very fragile, but incredibly deadly at even very high levels.

Consider a quick read through of K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584), particularly the sections on Clerics and on Zombies or Skeletons.

[Alistaroc]

Incorporeal minions are very good. Remember that most creatures have natural weapons which "count as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction", which is not sufficient to allow them to damage incorporeal creatures by RAW. A pile of allips is very fragile, but incredibly deadly at even very high levels.

Consider a quick read through of K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584), particularly the sections on Clerics and on Zombies or Skeletons.

Interesting read, indeed. However, I may have stumbled across something awesome. The Umbral template, from Libris Mortis 128. It has a 0 HD adjustment, and gives the creature a Strength-draining touch attack.

An Umbral Giant Strider(Monster of Faerun 51) deals 1d8 Strength damage on hit, and has immunity/healing from fire, and a bonus versus magic. It has 2 HD. Fireball-dodging Strength-eating ostrich? YES PLEASE.

An Umbral 5-headed Cryo/Pyro-Hydra has 5 HD, does 10d6 Strength damage per round, is incorporeal, and has immunity to cold/fire. Bone Knight 10 could give 8 of these puppies.

Or, if you want some MORE annoyingness, Umbral Bloodbloaters(Fiend Folio 16) do 1d6 Str damage, are an incorporeal swarm, and 2 can hit a Medium-sized creature at once.


Party Artificer can make a Shroud of the Unholy(create greater undead), for ~7k. So these are expensive puppies, but will destroy anything that can't deal with incorporeal. One of those hydras can put a Great Wyrm Red Dragon on a 5-turn clock if it can't kill it. And I could have... 23 of them.:smallbiggrin:




For less cheese though, a Spectre's 2 level drain for 7HD isn't too shabby.