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Pagz
2007-05-05, 11:42 PM
If weilding a speed weapon in your off hand and a non-speed weapon in your main hand and then you cast haste, will haste effect your mainhand weapon and will you still get your off hand weapon's extra attack from having its speed enchantment?

lv. 1 fighter (for simplicities sake)
eg. main hand longsword, off hand short sword of speed

this character will get 3 attacks, one from the main hand weapon and two from his off hand, then when haste is cast, he'll get two attacks from his mainhand and two from his offhand

I know it says that speed enchantments dont stack with haste, however since its affecting different weapons [When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding] I was wondering if this is a valid option.

BardicDuelist
2007-05-05, 11:47 PM
Yes, that would work.

(Just remember than you have to afford a weapon of speed, and so will probably get even more attacks from the BAB and the higher level)

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-05, 11:47 PM
By the RAW, in your example, you will get one attack with your main hand weapon, and one attack with your off-hand weapon, and may choose to have haste give you an extra attack with either weapon, or to have the speed enhancement give you an extra attack with your off-hand.

So in short, speed and haste do not stack, no matter where you put them.

IIRC, that trick worked in 3.0, even to the point of being able to Quick draw speed weapons to keep getting extra attacks, before it was errata-ed.

Pagz
2007-05-06, 12:01 AM
...yes on one hand, no in the next?

umm...

I guess we go for a second opinion?

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 05:09 AM
Language is not math ... the "truth" of the interpretation of the rules is formed by consensus. In this case there is none, it's simply up to the DM.

Latronis
2007-05-06, 05:26 AM
weapons of speed and haste never stack regardless of how many arms you have.

Matthew
2007-05-06, 05:36 AM
As Pinkysbrain indicates there are two possible interpretations for this and several lengthy Threads discussing the subject hereabouts. The crux of the matter lies with interpretation of the extant text. Under Haste, either you get one extra Attack and only one or you get as many as you have Hands. The latter is the less likely, but also the better balanced (so long as your Players don't try to swap Speed Weapons via Quick Draw to gain multiple extra Attacks)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-06, 06:34 AM
Copied from an earlier post:

This has been debated, twice in the SQA series I think, and on various threads here and elsewhere.

Important references include the 3.0 FAQ, the changed Speed description between 3.0 and 3.5 and a specific quarterstaff from the Epic Level Handbook that has Speed on both ends.

Also note that YOU are the one benefiting from Haste and Speed, not the weapon.

Q. 103 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2196707&postcount=289)

Q. 238 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1813921&postcount=981)

Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19529)
[/URL]
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40732"]Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19529)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-06, 06:42 AM
The oddness seems to be that the haste spell only appears to give a single extra melee attack, while the speed weapon enhancement is capable of giving you two extra melee attacks if they're on seperate dual-wielded weapons. It's an odd loophole, and one I rule around by just using the aforementioned "get as many extra attacks as you have hands" deal.

Also, speed is one of the better enhancements for a dual wielder. That's a nice find there.

Latronis
2007-05-06, 06:57 AM
As Pinkysbrain indicates there are two possible interpretations for this and several lengthy Threads discussing the subject hereabouts. The crux of the matter lies with interpretation of the extant text. Under Haste, either you get one extra Attack and only one or you get as many as you have Hands. The latter is the less likely, but also the better balanced (so long as your Players don't try to swap Speed Weapons via Quick Draw to gain multiple extra Attacks)


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

Explain how you can interpret an extra attack from a weapon of speed and one from haste while maintaining the effects arn't cumulative

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-06, 07:12 AM
Ah, I was wrong- SRD does maintain the same rules as the speed enhancement. My bad.

As for Latronis- it says the effects aren't (key word here) cumulative with the speed enhancement. Meaning, you can't get the effects of speed and haste on the same weapon, because it's already there. But it could effect a non-speed enhanced weapon fine because in that case, there's nothing cumulative about it.

Matthew
2007-05-06, 07:16 AM
Explain how you can interpret an extra attack from a weapon of speed and one from haste while maintaining the effects arn't cumulative
Lord Silvanos has provided links to the relevent discussion, explanation and exposition.

Zaeron
2007-05-06, 07:33 AM
This has come up a couple times in my games, and I always ruled that it was one extra attack per weapon or hand. Speed is a good weapon enhancement, one of the best, and haste is a very good melee buff, but even if they were allowed to stack on the same weapon they would not break the melee classes compared to what a caster of the same level could do by the time you had a Speed weapon anyway.

I think it's pretty silly to interpert the rules in the way which further cripples the guys who're already the weakest of the weak melee classes: rangers and other dual wielders. The rules are murky enough that it could clearly be taken either way, and since the only real effect is a small buff to specific already weak classes who happen to be wielding very expensive weapons and have access to haste, I don't think it's a big deal.

But that's just my take on it.

Latronis
2007-05-06, 07:43 AM
Ah, I was wrong- SRD does maintain the same rules as the speed enhancement. My bad.

As for Latronis- it says the effects aren't (key word here) cumulative with the speed enhancement. Meaning, you can't get the effects of speed and haste on the same weapon, because it's already there. But it could effect a non-speed enhanced weapon fine because in that case, there's nothing cumulative about it.

No haste doesn't affect the weapon it effects you while using the full attack action. Hence benefit from both a weapon of speed and haste is cumulative similiar effects. If you use a weapon of speed you can never get another attack from haste in the same fullattack action.

Any other interpratation only proves you dont know the meaning of cumulative (and i mean no offence when i say this)

EDIT: @Matthew i clicked reply before lord silvanos' post

Matthew
2007-05-06, 07:48 AM
Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Material Component
A shaving of licorice root.

Looks like there is room for interpretation to me.

[Edit] Okay, I was wondering about that.

Latronis
2007-05-06, 07:57 AM
Looks like there is room for interpretation to me.

[Edit] Okay, I was wondering about that.

Using the extra attack of haste disallows successive bonus attacks, once the character uses that attack any similiar effect is a successive addition, or in otherwords.. cumulative.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-06, 08:27 AM
Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round.

From "Quarterstaff of Alacricity" Epic Level Handbook section of the D20 SRD.

This is confusing.

EDIT: Yeah, but it's in the SRD, making it 3.5.

Caelestion
2007-05-06, 08:50 AM
The ELH is still 3.0, when Haste was vastly more powerful.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-06, 09:43 AM
cu·mu·la·tive
Pronunciation: 'kyü-my&-l&-tiv, -"lA-
Function: adjective
1 a : made up of accumulated parts b : increasing by successive additions
2 : tending to prove the same point <cumulative evidence>
3 a : taking effect upon completion of another penal sentence <a cumulative sentence> b : increasing in severity with repetition of the offense <cumulative penalty>
4 : formed by the addition of new material of the same kind <a cumulative book index>
5 : summing or integrating overall data or values of a random variable less than or less than or equal to a specified value <cumulative normal distribution> <cumulative frequency distribution>

From Webster's. I didn't get it wrong at all- the sum total of your hasted attacks cannot ever be increased over the total by which haste grants you, given that in D&D you always get the better of two enhancements whenever they specifically don't stack. The speed effect would temporarily cease to function in this case while hasted because it's the weaker of the two enhancements.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 10:01 AM
The ELH is still 3.0, when Haste was vastly more powerful.
Funnily enough, the only truely hard evidence against multiple speed weapons (lets ignore haste for a moment) is the 3.0 FAQ.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 10:51 AM
I seriously don't understand what the confusion is all about... where is there room for any interpretation?

Piece by piece:
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." This means, if you have one attack a round - say, a 5th level rogue, and the friendly neighborhood wizard has cast haste on the party, said rogue can now make 2 attacks - provided its part of a full attack action (i.e., the rogue didn't move during his phase.) IF said rogue were using TWF, he'd make 3 attacks. No problems there, right?

"The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. " Again, the 5th level rogue would make two attacks (we'll keep it simple) at +3 BAB plus strength, size modifier (if any), magical bonus (if any), Haste bonus, etc. Again, pretty freaking straight forward.

"(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed..." So, regardless of what other Haste-like effects you might have, Haste, Speed, Celerity, etc, you do not get any additional attacks. You get to add a total of +1 attack to your Full Attack. Period. Any issues with that very specific rule?

"...nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)"
The extra bit of time Haste provides is only usable during a Full Attack, and thus can't be used for anything else. Extremely redundant, but after reading a lot of posts on this subject, apparently needed.

"Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow. " Again, redundant, as the body of the spell specifies that, but for those who have a lower than average reading comprehension or really want some wiggle room where there is none, this blows all contestation out of the water.

"Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round.

From "Quarterstaff of Alacricity" Epic Level Handbook section of the D20 SRD."

Epic is broken cheese wrapped in Whine flavored monkey droppings. Trying to equate anything sub-Epic with an epic item is beyond retarded. Please do not intermix the rule sets - it's like creating a D&D character using Marvel Superheros.

Now, lets see... oh yeah, Speed Weapons, because, gee whiz, that's sure confusing...
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." So, my 5th level Rogue has managed to get ahold of a Rapier of Speed! Yippie! I enter combat, making two attacks against the icky troll, when all of a sudden, the party Wizard, Wizzar, casts Haste! Ohh, look, I'm FAST! All I have is my Rapier of Speed, so I can make one extra attack with it! Yay! Is that three? Two? I'm confused, I'll read Haste further...

"(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed..." Oh, poop. Guess I'm still stuck with two attacks... but! I get my +1 to hit, and I'm zippy zippy fast! Yay!


Now, the BIG QUESTION!!!! TWF and HASTE, with Weapon of SPEED!!!!

My 10th level Rogue has picked up a fancy Dagger of Venom to use paired with his Rapier of Speed. He enters combat, facing off with an Orc Cleric. He runs in, pokes the cleric in the eye! Ha! take that, follower of Gruumsh! Next round, he makes a full attack, swinging the Rapier three times (two at full bab, one at -5) followed with a quick jab with the dagger - save vs poison, byotch!. Just before his next attack, the Wizzar casts Haste! Yay! Fast movement, extra attack - I love Wizzar!!! But wait! I still have the Rapier of Speed - I can't make an extra attack with it, can I?!?

"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." Hey, that says 'ANY' weapon I'm holding... well, we know from above that it can't work with the Rapier... but what about the Dagger, that doesn't have any nasty Speed restrictions... So, I full attack - Three attacks with my Rapier, one attack with my Dagger... hey, wait...

Oh, yeah... "(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed..." Crud, so I'm already getting my happy +1 attack from a haste effect. I remember... 'regardless of what other Haste-like effects you might have, Haste, Speed, Celerity, etc, you do not get any additional attacks. You get to add a total of +1 attack to your Full Attack. Period. '


I'm really sorry for talking down at everyone, it isn't my intent to be an ass - just, seriously. I don't see any wiggle room at all, and that's the only way I can think of to get my point across.

Theo

Matthew
2007-05-06, 11:09 AM
It's the first point that brings forth the potential for interpretation:

"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

If it said 'one extra Attack with any [one] weapon he is holding' there would be no room for interpretation, but as written, it is a little on the ambiguous side. That's not to say I think the latter case is true, I think the intention is [one extra attack per round], but I can see how it might be interpreted the other way. More to the point, though, the second way would probably be better for Game Balance (assuming you could word things to prevent someone hurling infinite Throwing Knives of Speed in conjunction with the Quick Draw Feat). Obviously Haste still wouldn't stack with itself or with Speed under that interpretation.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 11:18 AM
ok, after reading LS's links, I think I found the linchpin to end all argument.

Beyond the fact that Haste specifies Speed and Speed specifies Haste - the actual creation of a Speed weapon requires the Haste spell. Haste cannot stack itself. Because Haste is the basis for Speed, it is indeed, itself.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 11:55 AM
From Webster's. I didn't get it wrong at allBut you do extrapolate.

the sum total of your hasted attacks cannot ever be increased over the total by which haste grants you
Maybe, but the bit about sum totals is not in the rules. Both haste and speed affect the attacks with a specific weapon, and the cumulation rule is silent on the matter ... an argument can be made that that rule also applies to the attacks made with a specific weapon.

Lots of arguments can be made, except for the one that there is a general consensus on the matter.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 05:42 PM
Pinky, you make no sense...

The rules are certainly not silent about sum totals. To whit (again): "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding" What is so bloody difficult to understand that ONE EXTRA ATTACK is the SUM TOTAL BENEFIT OF THE ABILITY.

Look at it this way. Haste adds one additional attack to a full attack sequence. Speed, which is created by using the Haste spell, per the DMG (pg 225) puts a Haste effect on a specific weapon.

The spell is superior, it grants a movement bonus, an AC bonus, a to hit bonus and an additional attack with whatever weapon you want to use. The Speed effect is specific to the weapon upon which it is placed, and doesn't generate the same additional side benefits.

Haste = any weapon, Speed = specific weapon, neither stack with the other, you can only ever have a sum total of +1 attack regardless of where it is derived, there is no conspiracy, there is no confusion, and other than two people who simply will not look at the freaking native language of the spell/effect as written, there IS A GENERAL CONSENSUS - and you are wrong.

Good day sir.

Matthew
2007-05-06, 05:54 PM
Pinky does not think Speed stacks with Haste. What he proposes is that Speed stacks with Speed and that Haste allows multiple Attacks by way of each weapon held by the combatant. It is not the generally accepted position, but it is a position possible to defend.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 06:06 PM
ok, how about this... Haste is an untyped bonus, the Speed effect is also untyped. You cannot derive a stacking untyped benefit from the same source. So, having a speed weapon (an untyped attack bonus) and another speed weapon (an untyped attack bonus) = only one works in a given round. The rules are there for a reason. Sometimes it's hard to find, I know...

Beyond that - why do you think I don't know what he's talking about. I expressly said "you can only ever have a sum total of +1 attack regardless of where it is derived" That includes two speed weapon weilding.

Why the smart people here get it when someone tries to make a spell that increases their intelligence with an untyped bonus stating it wouldn't stack with itself and yet don't get it with this... /boggle

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 06:09 PM
Matthew, please don't put words in my mouth.

Theodoxus :

Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

Use haste to get an extra attack with your main hand weapon. Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

How many extra attacks have been accumulated "with it" due to haste? One minus one equals zero ... no extra attacks have been accumulated "with it", the fact that the effects aren't cumulative thus becomes irrelevant.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 06:24 PM
Matthew, please don't put words in my mouth.

Theodoxus :

Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

Use haste to get an extra attack with your main hand weapon. Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

How many extra attacks have been accumulated "with it" due to haste? One minus one equals zero ... no extra attacks have been accumulated "with it", the fact that the effects aren't cumulative thus becomes irrelevant.


uh... no.

Speed weapon in off hand grants one additional attack with it. Correct.

Use haste - you can choose which weapon you want to speed up. You choose your main hand - obviously, your offhand has an extra attack thanks to speed, right?. Your attack sequence goes something like this:

Attack 1: Primary hand, Attack 2: Primary hand (Haste), Attack 3: Offhand, Attack 4: none. Oops, you've already received your total of +1 attack as defined by the untyped Haste bonus. Sorry. Of course, you're probably better off having two primary and one secondary attacks anyway.

The problem derives from the fact - I can only assume - that you're not looking at the Haste spell as a whole. You hit the first sentance "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." And promptly ignore the rest. The whole bloody mess needs to be taken as one giant bite, not just the part you like, ignoring the rest of it. The spell goes on to say "(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed...)" Please tell me you aren't going on about what 'similar' means, are you? It's an untyped bonus. That alone should stop anyone in their tracks.

From your answer, I think you're claiming that Haste on one weapon and Speed on another is ok, but Speed on two weapons isn't (given your answer to Matthew). Why not make the final leap and see that Speed and Haste are the same thing. Speed requires Haste to create the effect. Both reference each other with what doesn't stack, and both are untyped bonuses... (guess I'm gonna have to find that in the SRD too)

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 06:35 PM
I don't care about any of that, I care about what accumulates ... the total number of extra attacks, or the extra attacks with a specific weapon. It's a free choice, the rules are silent (well, except for the 3.0 FAQ).

RMS Oceanic
2007-05-06, 07:00 PM
So, having two separate weapons with speed (no haste involved) does nothing, am I right? It feels like it should, given that epic staff (you can enchant nonepic double weapons with speed - for a total of 64.000 gp, admitedly - so that's irrelevant), and speed says an extra attack "with that weapon", implying speeding another weapon gives you an attack with it as well. When granting extra attacks, haste looks for speed, and speed looks for haste. Does speed look for speed?

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 08:13 PM
I don't care about any of that, I care about what accumulates ... the total number of extra attacks, or the extra attacks with a specific weapon. It's a free choice, the rules are silent (well, except for the 3.0 FAQ).

The rules are far from silent.

What part of 'you only get one extra attack, period.' don't you understand?

Seriously, I can only imagine you're being obstinate to be funny, or because you're unable to admit you're wrong, or you don't understand the english language.

Reread every post I made on this subject, and tell me you stil think the rules are silent - and please, let me know exactly where they're silent - because I've ruled in each single sentance of both abilities where they are not.

You can't refute the untyped bonus - at all. That alone annihilates any possible chance that Haste grants an additional attack for every weapon you possess. That alone annihilates any possible chance that you get an additional attack for each Speed weapon you own. That alone annihilates any possible chance that Haste used on a two weapon fighting character with one Speed weapon grants an addtional attack for the Speed weapon.

To reiterate, for the last freaking time - and then I'm gonna fume in silence.

Haste = +1 attack. Period, end of story.

Haste + multiple weapons = +1 attack, singular, for one weapon of your choice. Period, end of story.

Speed = +1 attack. Period, end of story.

Speed on multiple weapons = +1 attack, singular, for one weapon of your choice. Period, end of story.

Speed on multiple weapons + Haste = +1 attack, singular, for one weapon of you choice. Period, end of story.

Haste = Speed. They are THE SAME THING, not 'kinda close', not 'sorta' the SAME. You can only benefit from one untyped bonus once from the same source. (And just because one instance of Speed is on your scimitar and the other is on your Dagger doesn't mean they aren't the same source. An Amulet of Natural Armor and a Belt of Natural armor are 'two different sources' too, but they don't stack either.

As has been mentioned previously by others, Speed on a weapon isn't increasing the number of attacks the weapon makes, it's increasing the number of attacks you're making with that weapon. A subtle, but very important difference. It's not a dancing sword, it's not an animated bashing shield, it's a weapon you're holding that is allowing you to make another telling attack (remember the definition of combat in D&D - you're making multiple feints in those six seconds, not just the 1 plus possible iterative attacks you rolll on. The Hasted or Sped up weapon are simply allowing one more feint to count.) No matter how many weapons you're using, the magic of Haste allows only one more of those attacks to count.

Jebuz.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-06, 08:28 PM
What part of 'you only get one extra attack, period.' don't you understand?
I don't quite understand your use of quotation marks for a start.

Prerequisite spells for an item are irrelevant. A speed weapon is something different from haste entirely.

Haste gives you an extra attack with any weapon you are holding, when you pick a specific weapon this means you get an extra attack with a weapon. If you use a speed weapon you can get an extra attack with another weapon. You still only have one extra attack with any weapon, no accumulation taking place from one perspective. The perspective to take is what the rules are silent on. I'd say the most natural perspective for haste is to look globally because of it's slightly different wording ("one extra attack with any weapon") and for speed weapon it's locally ("with it"). In neither case it's crystal clear though.

Theodoxus
2007-05-06, 08:47 PM
Ok, prereq spells are irrelevant... right - so I'll just use Fireball for my speed weapon - it's a third level spell. Should be able to just swap out any ol' spell of the same level, right? It's irrelevant what it actually is, its just the amount of magic that goes into the item, not what the magic is. Sure.

Ok - so, 1 extra attack + 1 extra attack = 1 extra attack. That's the kind of math they're teaching these days? Neat.

I have no idea what you mean by global vs local. Haste lets you pick, Speed is picked for you. That's the only difference. They do the exact same thing regarding weapons - which is why they don't stack. And that's also why you're wrong with: 'A speed weapon is something different from haste entirely.' They are the same - pretty much the exact opposite of your statement.

I'm gonna go with you're being obstinate to be funny... goes with your screen name.

Matthew
2007-05-06, 10:54 PM
Matthew, please don't put words in my mouth.

Theodoxus :

Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

Use haste to get an extra attack with your main hand weapon. Use a speed weapon in your off hand. How many extra attacks do you get "with it"? One.

How many extra attacks have been accumulated "with it" due to haste? One minus one equals zero ... no extra attacks have been accumulated "with it", the fact that the effects aren't cumulative thus becomes irrelevant.
Wait, I'm confused. So what are you arguing here? Surely not that Haste and Speed can affect the same weapon and grant two extra Attacks?

The way I see the argument you can say:

Two Weapon Fighter 5
One Weapon of Speed = Three Attacks
Two Weapon Fighter 5
Two Weapons of Speed = Three Attacks [First Interpretation] or Four Attacks [Second Interpretation]
Two Weapon Fighter 5
Haste Spell = Three Attacks [First Interpretation] or Four Attacks [Second Interpretation]
Two Weapon Fighter 5
Haste and Speed Weapon = Three Attacks [First Interpretation] or Four Attacks [Second Interpretation]

But are we arguing for yet another that has Haste effect only one weapon and allows Speed to effect the other? I think Lord Silvanos has shown that to be not the case, the target effected is the Character, not the Weapon.

Pagz
2007-05-07, 03:55 AM
Ok, now I get it. Since both Speed and Haste affect you, and not the weapons, they cannot stack with each other because they are not accumulative. I was under the impression that they affected the weapons and not the character. Thanks guys.

Caelestion
2007-05-07, 04:34 AM
Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, it might be worth allowing them to stack, just to give the fighters some more to do. (Same reason why Improved Critical and Keen really should stack, damnit.)

Latronis
2007-05-07, 04:46 AM
I don't care about any of that, I care about what accumulates ... the total number of extra attacks, or the extra attacks with a specific weapon. It's a free choice, the rules are silent (well, except for the 3.0 FAQ).

Haste allows you to make one additional attack, that you can make with any weapon.

It does not speed up a weapon at all

the rules of the haste spell says you can make one additional attack with any weapon.

One attack, any weapon.

Once you have made ANY additional attacks with ANY weapon ANY other bonus attack is a successive addition. Which is pretty much the very definition of cumulative.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-07, 09:00 AM
Just to throw on more fuel, in AD&D, Shortsword of Quickness stacked with Scimitar of Speed, I think.

UserClone
2007-05-07, 11:42 AM
Just to make you realize your fuel is not exactly flammable, AD&D was not known for its balance, its common sense, or its ability to apply logic to the fantastic. It was just fun. That being said, it's nice to not nerf the fighters comparatively with the mages, you are the DM, grow up and HR it.

Matthew
2007-05-07, 11:52 AM
Well yeah, but I think we're all agreed that allowing Speed to work with Primary and Off Hand Weapons is a reasonably good House Rule.

Sutremaine
2007-05-07, 12:56 PM
Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, it might be worth allowing them to stack, just to give the fighters some more to do. (Same reason why Improved Critical and Keen really should stack, damnit.)
I think potential crits of 12-20/x2 or 18-20/x4 are a little much even for the poor abused melee types. Maybe a bonus to the confirmation roll would be a good middle ground.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-07, 01:02 PM
Don't you get to specify a weapon to apply your bonus attack to when hasting? It says "any weapon", not "but first the spell will look for the speed enhancement and try to apply it to that". So if you've got one speed weapon and one additional weapon-type, can't you just specify that other weapon and, therefore, get one additional attack with both the speeded weapon and the hasted weapon since it's by a weapon-to-weapon basis?

The stupid confusing monkey wrench is that the haste spell says that it doesn't stack with "other haste effects". I mean, what the hell does that even mean? Does it mean you can only have a haste spell cast on you one at a time (makes perfect sense), or does it also mean that the speed weapon enhancement counts against it as it appears to be a "haste effect"? I'd certainly never count the latter, but the term "haste effects" is just confounding.

But since a speed weapon doesn't effect other speed weapons per it's definition, by RAW I guess that means having two or more speed weapons would each grant their bonus as written. I guess this also makes a case for the haste being able to effect a different weapon while one weapon has a speed enhancement schtick.

Wolf53226
2007-05-07, 01:22 PM
Other than the fact that speed:


Speed

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Specifically doesn't stack with speed or other similar effects. Similar effects being anything that grants you an extra attack, other than BAB.

I agree that house ruling otherwise would be a big help to the fighters of the world though, and find it agree able if I were DMing, but this is a house rule.

Theodoxus
2007-05-07, 01:35 PM
But since a speed weapon doesn't effect other speed weapons per it's definition...

Where are you getting that from? The Speed weapon very specifically states that it's effects don't stack with itself. What exactly is missing from "Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)" that any way in all gets you to think you can make an extra attack with every Speed weapon you own.

See that nifty little section in the parentheses? Lets take it word by word, so everyone can see that, by definition, one speed weapon in the hand affects all other speed weapons in your other hand(s).

"This" pertaining to a specific item or state of being. Declaritive statement that the following information will be specifically regarding the previous sentance.
"Benefit" boon, bonus, a good thing.
"is not" a negative connotation; negates the being of said object.
"cumulative" increasing by successive addition
"with similar" marked by correspondance or resemblance
"effects" creates change in an object, being or concept
"such as" as in; like; for reference; so extreme a degree or extent
"a Haste spell" a definitive ability in D&D that allows for one (1) additional attack at full base attack bonus.

So, lets put it all together with the definitions...
The declaration in the previous sentance provides a boon which negates any increase in successive addition by anything with a marked resemblance to itself which in so doing affects a change in the object or being; said resemblance so extreme a degree or extent as to be equivalent to the definitive ability in D&D that allows for one (1) additional attack at full base attack bonus.

or, to put it simply - you are wrong.


PS: For the record, I'm all good with House Ruling it different. But as a Rules Lawyer, I find that the Spell and Magical Effect are quite well defined, and why anyone is confused by them is beyond me.

Matthew
2007-05-07, 01:42 PM
Yes, but it's the 'with it' clause that makes the difference. If it were just 'one extra attack' it would be clear, but it specifically isolates the weapon.

Theodoxus
2007-05-07, 01:55 PM
The only thing 'with it' does is specify that that weapon is the weapon you must take the extra attack with. That way, you can't have a dagger of speed on your belt and make an extra attack with the Greatsword you're currently holding.

There is no other way of wording that sentence to clarify you must make the attack with the weapon that has Speed on it. Take the 'with it' off and you have: "When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack." I suppose, on the surface, this is less confusing to some, because it states 'weilder' but then others would be arguing what a 'weilder' is. And it still doesn't alleviate the issue of multiple attacks. Your 'with it' is a straw man.

Leave it on, take it off - either way, you can make the call that you can take additional attacks with each speed weapon you possess - if you conveniently ignore the fact that you can't gain any additional attacks at all, as written. Cumulative means cumulative - in that respect, the CSR who replied that there is no way on the planet to obtain more than 1 attack over iterative is correct, by RAW. I'd almost have to say you're playing 'spirit vs written' but it's not quite correct. You're playing games with a few words - you're in essence saying 'it depends on what the definition of 'is' is.'

Reminds me of rule in a LARP I play - if there is a grey area loophole, and you exploit it, you're breaking the rules of the game and will be disciplined. Everyone here, regardless of which side of the debate they're on, knows that at worst, this is a grey area that WotC never clarified to the nth degree. With such an issue, intent should always win over 'well, I know what they were meaning, but thats not what they SAY here, so... RAW says Speed stacks with itself (and by correlary, Haste stacks with itself). - afterall, if on the first casting I choose my left hand weapon to get the extra attack, then on the second casting next round, I can choose my right hand weapon to get the extra attack.

RMS Oceanic
2007-05-07, 02:47 PM
I still don't get it. It says it doesn't stack with similar effects. Similar != Identical, and Speed != Haste. As Matthew says, the use of "with it", in addition to that epic staff, really clouds the issue.

Has anyone ever tried asking Wizards for clarification?

PinkysBrain
2007-05-07, 06:26 PM
It's in the 3.0 FAQ.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-07, 07:25 PM
Theodoxus- it mentions nowhere that having speed on one weapon prohibits speed or haste effects on a different weapon. Nowhere. It says that you can't have more then one speed or haste effect on one weapon. The haste spell says more or less the same thing. Therefore while the haste spell is still somewhat debatable on it's effects when you have two weapons and only one has the speed effect, it isn't really defendable to say that two seperate speed weapons wouldn't get their effects, as neither weapon effects the other. Haste does a lot more then granting an extra attack, and since speed doesn't grant you any of that stuff, you can't claim it's the same thing when accounting for multiple weapons since it only mentioned haste.

To clear up my stance-
Two normal weapons without haste = No bonuses
Two normal weapons with haste = 1 bonus attack
One speed weapon + one normal weapon without haste = 1 bonus attack
Two speed weapons without haste = 2 bonus attacks (one on each, not both on any single one)
One speed weapon + one normal weapon with haste = 2 bonus attacks (one on each, not both on any single one- debatable usage, but it's what I believe)
Two speed weapons with haste = 2 bonus attacks (one on each, not both on any single one)

The rules dictate that you very clearly can't have more then one extra attack PER WEAPON from speed or haste effects. It mentions nothing of whether this applies to multiple wielded weaponry, hence the confusion and multiple possible explanations.

Bauglir
2007-05-08, 05:21 PM
Untyped bonuses stack with themselves, unless from the same source, right? And Mage's Sword=/=Wounding Weapon as near as I can tell. The two are completely different, but Mage's Sword is the prerequisite for the special ability. I may have missed the rules statement that the prerequisite for a special ability is treated as that special ability for stacking rules, however (point it out to me, if you would). Besides which, it's not even stated that either effect is a bonus, nor is +1 ever used to describe the number of attacks. It's always, "an extra". An "extra" point of Constitution, while an increase, is not a bonus.

With that out of the way, I'd also like to say that I think that they should work that way. The weapon says that it doesn't stack with haste. Haste says it doesn't stack with the Speed property. So be it. The speed ability of my weapon in no way affects the other weapon I may be wielding, so there is no issue of stacking. I agree, of course, that one couldn't gain an extra attack with a speed weapon with haste; the rules are quite clear that a specific weapon with the speed enhancement can't be used that way. Plus, even if it is Epic, it's still a precedent that's better than the 3.0 FAQ. If the item doesn't say that "this is an exception to the normal rule that two weapons of Speed do not grant an additional attack with each weapon", like every other case of rules exceptions, then there is no such rule and I'll stand by it until WotC says otherwise. Besides, if they wanted to change that with 3.5, they'd have said something about it in the upgrade for the book.

Latronis
2007-05-08, 11:43 PM
Look:


Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature*/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Material Component
A shaving of licorice root.



*emphasis, mine. Note targets: creatures, not weapons.

Any is an exclusive modifier, The haste spell only effects creatures not what said creatures are wielding.

in otherwords you get one (and only one) bonus attack that you can make with a weapon of your choice. You can't quickdraw, attack, drop, quickdraw etc for endless attacks. You don't get a bonus attack for each weapon in your possession. You get a grand total of one extra attack with any weapon you can use during that fullattack action.

Then it says its not cumulative with similiar effects, and gives weapon of speed as an example.

Lets look at what the srd says about the speed special quality of magic weapons:


Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

How does that differ from the haste spell in regards to extra attacks:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding with it. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

Instead of getting to choose which weapon you make the extra attack with it's only the weapon of speed that can make the extra attack.

Then it say's its not cumulative with similiar, even giving haste as an example.

The difference between them is which weapon makes the extra attack, either the weapon or speed or the any weapon capable of being used for an attack. It's always the weilder (or hasted) character making an extra attack, and neither being cumulative with like effects makes successive additions illegal by RAW. In other words it doesn't matter how many wepaons you have, how many of them are speed weapons, whether a speed weapon or non-speed weapon made the attack granted from haste you can only ever benefit from ONE of them.

You make an extra attack with a weapon of speed, you can't make any other attacks granted by speed weapons the same round... RAW

You make an extra attack with a weapon of speed, you can't make any other extra attacks granted by the haste spell the same round... RAW

You make an extra attack because of the haste spell, you can't make any other extra attacks granted by speed weapons, whether it was a speed weapon the hasted character used to make the extra attack or not, the same round... RAW

It's simply what all those English words mean

There is no other way to accurately interpret it, only by adding words to the description, or misunderstanding the words.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-09, 07:49 AM
Speed weapons don't effect the wielder, however. Thus dual-wielding speed weapons would work because it doesn't effect a "creature", it's the weapon.


Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Again, cumulative. A haste and a speed effect on a single weapon can't work- given. But it says nothing of a second weapon, or that having this on one weapon prevents such an effect from your other attacks. Nothing from the one weapon would effect the other. Thus, it isn't cumulative at all.

Now, to prove my second point-


Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Material Component
A shaving of licorice root.

There. The part where it says "any weapon". You can specify which weapon it goes to. An offhand weapon without speed that does not yet have an extra attack from speed or haste could be given that extra attack. We can agree on this even if the first weapon doesn't yet have an extra attack. Now, if you have a haste on one and a speed on the other, they aren't cumulative as per the definition of cumulative- neither are on the same weapon, and this portion of the spell/weapon enhancement is specific to the weapon. Also, note how this particular portion of the haste spell and the addendum that the extra attack doesn't stack with speed is singled out from the rest of the spell. It isn't placed under the rest of the stuff haste does (and there's a lot, as you can plainly see). Thus, a haste spell isn't the same as a speed enhancement at all. Thus, speed isn't a "haste effect", making the last ruling ineffective. This can be argued as poor placement, but grammatically speaking, speed is only limited by that one paragraph and nothing else.

Bauglir
2007-05-09, 07:52 AM
One could argue that being able to attack again with the weapon in your right hand is a different effect from being able to attack again with the weapon in your left. Or one could argue that being able to attack again with one's +1 Dagger of Speed is a different effect from being able to attack again with one's +1 Vorpal Longsword (making use of the Haste effect).

Talya
2007-05-09, 07:56 AM
Both interpretations are RAW, actually.

Haste and a weapon of speed do not stack. You could not have a greatsword of speed, a haste buff, and make 2 extra attacks with it.

However, haste buffs the character, and applies to any weapon by raw, and a weapon of speed specifically states it buffs that particular weapon of speed only, as per RAW. While you cannot stack haste on top of speed, the argument is whether when using two weapons, and buffed by haste, if using the haste extra attack on a weapon that does not have the speed enchantment is "stacking" with using the speed feature on the other weapon. RAW is silent on this, and one could argue both ways with validity.

I suspect the intention of the rule was that "no, that does not stack." However, by the letter of the law, it can be argued either way with logic, and is not really conclusive. Seeing that from a balance perspective, allowing them both to function on opposite weapons is far better, I'd tend to err against the apparent spirit of the rules.

Sutremaine
2007-05-09, 08:02 PM
What about other weapon abilities that are created with spells that affect a creature and provide non-stacking bonuses? Has it ever been established whether it's possible to gain the benefit of wielding more than one of those?

Latronis
2007-05-10, 10:08 AM
When making a full attack action, the <b>wielder</b> of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it

That means the wielder is making an extra attack, just like with haste its the character making the attack hence one bonus attack from a weapon of speed is an addition to your normal attack routine haste lets the creature make one bonus attack in addition to your normal attack routine...

Successive additions = cumulative = illegal by RAW

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-10, 10:38 AM
The wielder of a flaming weapon can choose not to deal flaming damage. The wielder of a merciful weapon can choose to deal lethal damage. It's saying that the wielder doesn't have to make that additional attack, not that the weapon grows into him and alters his body chemistry.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 10:59 AM
That's irrelevant

It specifically states that the wielder may make an extra attack(with it specifically) while using a full-attack.

The wielder is making an extra attack if he\she\it\they chooses too, it's an addition. With a 2nd weapon of speed or under the influence of haste other additions become successive additions which is strictly prohibited for being cumulative.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-10, 11:09 AM
If it's on fire, it's an addition as well. It doesn't say speed is an addition to the wielder, just that there's an additional attack being made with that weapon that can be used. In fact, looking it over, there's nothing about a speed weapon that says it makes the wielder move faster- merely that the weapon can make an extra attack beyond the typical capacity of it's wielder. Since there's no real fluff on the matter, it sounds like the weapon itself makes the extra attack.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 11:30 AM
Except it specifically says it's the wielder making the extra attack.


When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

The weapon isn't swinging an extra time on a full attack action, the wielder is choosing to make an additional attack with it.

With speed, the wielder is making an extra attack with a specific weapon, with haste the recipient is making an extra attack with a weapon of their choice. In both cases (and both descriptions) the wielder\recipient is making an extra attack.

Everytime the wielder\recipient makes a series of additional attacks, extra attacks are accumulating, the source only matters for determining if it's allowed to stack. (And haste is specifically given as the example for speed, and adversly speed is given for haste)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-10, 11:34 AM
But speed doesn't refference speed, though haste refferences itself. And if two speed weapons can work, it makes a lot of sense to let haste and speed work so long as neither are working with the same weapon. Cumulative and alike isn't the same- there's no redundancy if it's on different weaponry.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 11:41 AM
But speed doesn't refference speed, though haste refferences itself. And if two speed weapons can work, it makes a lot of sense to let haste and speed work so long as neither are working with the same weapon. Cumulative and alike isn't the same- there's no redundancy if it's on different weaponry.

I suppose you could make a case for 2 speed weapons, however one could also argue that +1 shortsword of speed and +1 longsword of speed are similiar and not the same because they come from different weapons.

How sensical(is that even a word??) something is, doesn't really matter for RAW, only for houseruling. If the RAW does indeed allow two speed weapons to stack that doesn't make the RAWs stance on haste + speed any different. Which we are now agreed upon yes?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-10, 11:53 AM
That more or less puts us at the same point of view. The rules for haste + speed on different weapons are a lot muddier and nonsensical then the rest of the potential combinations. I'd personally rule it that way, but the RAW itself on the matter is byzantine. To keep it easier, I think I'd rather just always use double speed weapons as a TWF- it's a rather nice enhancement.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 12:09 PM
It would've made one of my encounters just a bit tougher him being a monk\favoured soul\divine fist with a brilliant energy quarterstaff of speed

Talya
2007-05-10, 12:38 PM
If you're debating this ambiguous issue, ask yourself:

Will giving my dual weilders an extra attack really make up for the fact that dual weilding sucks compared to a greatsword, let alone overpower it? Will dual weilding rangers suddenly match CoDZilla or Wizards for power? If not, let them do it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-10, 12:42 PM
Sure, but that is a really poor RAW argument.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 12:43 PM
If you're debating this ambiguous issue, ask yourself:

Will giving my dual weilders an extra attack really make up for the fact that dual weilding sucks compared to a greatsword, let alone overpower it? Will dual weilding rangers suddenly match CoDZilla or Wizards for power? If not, let them do it.


That's fine for playing but we arguing the RAW. And in regards to the original question... haste and a weapon of speed while dual-wielding... is it possible? it's not ambiguous if you just read what's written.

Talya
2007-05-10, 12:47 PM
Sure, but that is a really poor RAW argument.



Absolutely.

The truth of the matter is that RAW is not absolutely clear on the matter. It does appear that this should not work, at least based on the intent of the RAW, if not the letter. However, a valid argument can be made that the RAW allows it (using a tennuous, but logical loophole.)

For the lack of absolute clarity from RAW, let balance win out.

Telonius
2007-05-10, 12:58 PM
Haste = Speed. They are THE SAME THING, not 'kinda close', not 'sorta' the SAME. You can only benefit from one untyped bonus once from the same source. (And just because one instance of Speed is on your scimitar and the other is on your Dagger doesn't mean they aren't the same source. An Amulet of Natural Armor and a Belt of Natural armor are 'two different sources' too, but they don't stack either.



I agree with this point.

Per the SRD on Speed Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) (emphasis added):


Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

You need to have access to the Haste spell in order to create a Weapon of Speed. The bonus comes from the same spell, so it's the same source.

To further the Natural Armor analogy, an Amulet of Natural Armor has the following entry:


Amulet of Natural Armor
This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), or 50,000 gp (+5).

And, for Barkskin:

Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the target’s natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor. A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0.


Note that the spells don't stack (i.e. aren't cumulative).

The whole problem with Haste on a Speed Weapon could be resolved if the weapon ability text were modified to read: "If the wielder of a Speed weapon makes a full attack action, the wielder acts as though under the effects of a Haste spell until the start of the next round." I believe this was the intent.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-10, 01:25 PM
That actually wouldn't solve it at all. Speed and haste are quite different- the speed effect only works on the weapon with it, and it doesn't gain any of the other benefits that the haste spell does. It'd be better if it just specified that under no circumstances can you obtain more than one magical additional attack per weapon, be it from a spell or magical effect (for the purposes of this restriction, each end of a double weapon is treated as a seperate weapon).

Finally- in the requirements for creating a golem, it says you need the wish spell. This doesn't mean a golem has anything to do with a wish spell. Spell requirements and effects they grant unto creations aren't necessarily related unless specifically mentioned otherwise (such as in the case of a haste and speed effect's overlapping bonuses).

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-10, 01:26 PM
It would probably be easier in the future, if Speed weapons simply say that they give you an "Enhancement Bonus to your attacking speed, allowing you to make one extra attack with this weapon during a full-attack action." Since Enhancement Bonuses don't stack(ditto for most), problem solved.:smallwink:

Bauglir
2007-05-10, 05:35 PM
Yes, one of those would be easier. Concrete rulings are good.

On stacking: An extra attack with your offhand weapon =/= an extra attack with your primary weapon, and that, I think, is a good basis for arguing that you can use both effects.

On spell prereqs: Mage's Sword =/= Wounding. As I've said before, a special ability's prerequisite doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the ability, it's just something to make sure extra-nifty things aren't being crafted too early, or to make sure every spellcaster can't craft every item (except Warlocks, of course), and just to show a spell slot that has to be consumed when crafting if it should be important.

Theodoxus
2007-05-10, 05:59 PM
So then, using that argument, magic item creation shouldn't specify a spell, but a spell level, or slot. As I noted previously, one should (using that theory) be able to make a Scimitar of Speed using Fireball as the basis for the effect - it's a 3rd level spell, equivalent to Haste in 'magical' power.

For those looking for 'fluff' inside the description of Speed need look no further than the creation requirements.

At any rate, WotC has most certainly chimed in on this subject, as asked a few times in this thread. They sided with the concept that you can only ever have one additional attack provided beyond iterative, regardless of means. (spell, magic item, feat, etc.)

It's harsh, but that's what they said. Taking it from there, have fun houseruling whatever you want with the spells and weapons and magic items - but the decree has been made for RAW.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-10, 11:55 PM
At any rate, WotC has most certainly chimed in on this subject, as asked a few times in this thread. They sided with the concept that you can only ever have one additional attack provided beyond iterative, regardless of means. (spell, magic item, feat, etc.)

Unless specified by the spell/item/feat/class feature in question, of course. Like Dervish, Frenzied Berserker(Which actually specifically says it doesn't stack with Haste, so you have to wonder which would be considered "default".).

Talya
2007-05-11, 11:49 AM
At any rate, WotC has most certainly chimed in on this subject, as asked a few times in this thread. They sided with the concept that you can only ever have one additional attack provided beyond iterative, regardless of means. (spell, magic item, feat, etc.)

It's harsh, but that's what they said. Taking it from there, have fun houseruling whatever you want with the spells and weapons and magic items - but the decree has been made for RAW.


That may be what they've said. Find me the proof, nobody's posted it here.

If you can't link it, they haven't said it. It's not RAW unless you post something directly, not a paraphrase or something you think you read once. I would not be surprised if such a clarification from WotC existed, as I do believe that is the intent of the rules as written, if not the letter. However, nobody has, as of yet, been able to post any such clarification here.

Piccamo
2007-05-11, 12:01 PM
That ruling is in the 3.0 FAQ. In any case, they don't stack. You only get 1 extra attack no matter which source is providing you with them. You should just let this thread die with all the others about this subject.

Latronis
2007-05-11, 12:07 PM
I've already explained it by RAW.

There is no possible way to interpret the extra attacks stacking by the rules as written by the letter.

You need to be IGNORING words or ADDING words for the combination of words in the description to allow Speed and Haste to stack.

Talya
2007-05-11, 12:30 PM
I've already explained it by RAW.

There is no possible way to interpret the extra attacks stacking by the rules as written by the letter.

You need to be IGNORING words or ADDING words for the combination of words in the description to allow Speed and Haste to stack.

No, No you don't.

1. The 3.0 faq doesn't apply. Haste was dramatically changed since 3.0.
2. The rules do not directly say that, and nobody here has logically refuted the fact that technically, a weapon of speed hastes your weapon (as you can only take an extra attack with it), while a haste spell hasts you, with the ability to take an extra attack with any weapon. If you apply haste to a weapon other than the weapon of speed, you aren't attempting to stack them, they're applied to different things.

I think the explanation in 2 is a stretch, but it's logical, and without direct contradiction from WotC (which I'd expect to find somewhere), it doesn't violate RAW.

Latronis
2007-05-11, 12:41 PM
no number 2 requires the ignoring of words

both haste and speed descriptions say its the hasted character or the wielder of a speed weapon making an extra attack.

therefore the character making an extra attack with a speed weapon and then making an extra attack with haste in the same full-attack has accumulated TWO bonus attacks.

and since they both say it isn't cumulative with the other it's illegal.

Strictly RAW.

Talya
2007-05-11, 12:52 PM
no number 2 requires the ignoring of words

both haste and speed descriptions say its the hasted character or the wielder of a speed weapon making an extra attack.

therefore the character making an extra attack with a speed weapon and then making an extra attack with haste in the same full-attack has accumulated TWO bonus attacks.

and since they both say it isn't cumulative with the other it's illegal.

Strictly RAW.


Yes, two bonus attacks, one with each hand. That does not contradict the RAW. At all. It's not ignoring it, the fact is the RAW doesn't disallow it specifically, as written. Nowhere does it say that it's one total bonus attack and no more.

Latronis
2007-05-11, 01:20 PM
go to a dictionary

look up cumulative

look up successive

look up addition

now:

The WIELDER makes a bonus attack.

the hasted CHARACTER makes a bonus attack.

what weapons used when, why and how is irrelevant because the character is making the attacks.

2 bonus attacks = successive addition (cumulative)

Theodoxus
2007-05-11, 01:55 PM
That may be what they've said. Find me the proof, nobody's posted it here.

If you can't link it, they haven't said it. It's not RAW unless you post something directly, not a paraphrase or something you think you read once. I would not be surprised if such a clarification from WotC existed, as I do believe that is the intent of the rules as written, if not the letter. However, nobody has, as of yet, been able to post any such clarification here.

You're right - I was looking for when I posted that, and I couldn't find it - though I know it was a CSR reply in a wizards.com thread. However, I just sent an email to the Sage with this question:

"How many attacks will a 5th level fighter make with the following stipulations: Two Daggers of Speed, Two Weapon Fighting and Haste cast on him."

As soon as I get a reply, I'll let you all know.

Latronis
2007-05-11, 02:07 PM
my money is on 3

Matthew
2007-05-27, 05:39 PM
Any response from Wizards concerning this yet?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-27, 05:45 PM
Yeah, that's what I was waiting on. Did Theodoxus forget about this topic?

I'll give him until tonight before I ask Wizards myself. Full question-

"If a character is equipped with two weapons, one weapon has the speed enhancement, and the character has haste cast on him, may the character then apply the extra attack granted by haste onto the second, non-speed weapon?

Also, if a character is equipped with two speed enhanced weapons, would the character get an extra attack on both weapons?"

Agreeable?

Talya
2007-05-27, 05:49 PM
Yes, except the answer will be counterproductive. In the wake of unclear language that lends itself to nitpicking at words to intentionally invalidate the intent, you might want to get the right answer directly.

However, in a case like this, when Wizards obviously doesn't know what the hell it's doing, balance-wise, it's best to leave it a bit ambiguous so you can intentionally misinterpret it without a house rule. ;)

Matthew
2007-05-27, 05:59 PM
Heheh. Maybe. Sounds fine to me, but I won't hold my breath for Wizards' answer... all my inquiries have gone unanswered.