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Segev
2015-08-10, 02:23 PM
We all know that the go-to method for playing a minionmancer is "evil cleric with Deathbound domain," with the Dread Necromancer making a close runner-up.

The Necromancer (wizard specialist) is generally considered a poor choice for this, not the least because of his late access to animate dead and his lack of advantages to caps on undead control.

However, he (and the dread necromancer) gets command undead as a second level spell. By 3rd character level, the Necromancer (wizard specialist) is the fist person to have access to it. And it has its advantages, even over Rebuke/Command Undead, in that it can control any size skeleton or zombie you come across.

Sadly, you're still dependent on the DM furnishing you with convenient undead foes.

Additionally, one of my personal favorite iconic images is of the arrogant necromancer standing before a small horde of zombies and commanding, "KNEEL!"

Obviously, Rebuke/Command might hopefully do this, if the zombies are sufficiently low-HD. But so, too, could chain command undead. This is a 5th level spell slot, but you're commanding up to 10 individual zombies of any number of HD at this point, assuming minimum level to cast it (9th, for the wizard).

A final point of note is that, in addition to not capping the HD your mindless minions can have individually, these do not have a HD cap associated with them. You just have to keep renewing the spell. (And, again, once you have chain command undead, this becomes even more efficient in terms of spell slots.) If you can make magic items of command undead or chain command undead, that becomes even more potent. (Remember, if you're custom-crafting, to make them usable only by a Necromancy-specialist wizard; that's a 30% reduction in price!)

So, given that command undead is going to be a go-to spell for building your unholy army if you seek to manage this as a wizard, let's optimize it for as much minion-control as early as possible!

The two biggest problems with it are that you have to wait for 3rd character level and that you're depending on the DM. The second one is, perhaps, the harder one to solve: how does the aspiring Necromancer go about finding undead minions to take control of, long before he can create them, himself? Even the spawn-making undead are difficult to manage, because one must find the first one. And then one must remember that command undead operates more like charm monster than dominate on intelligent undead, so even that is imperfect.

If one is in Pathfinder or has a DM who disallows wightpocalypses, it may not even be possible to try to find a negative-level stick to beat people with until they die and rise as wights (which, again, are at best charmed by your command undead spell).

What means might you use, in a practical game, to seek undead to command as early as possible?

The second issue is the fact that you're playing through your formative levels without what you hope will become your primary schtick. You have no means of controlling undead, even if you can find them, before third level. Precocious Apprentice seems a good initial way to rectify this. Command undead becomes a spell you can cast right off the bat, once per day, which, if you've solved the problem above, is enough to get you at least one minion.

(There's also the UA variant where you give up a familiar for a skeleton. This is pretty good, but one would hope one could do better than just the one minion. Even with that and the Precocious Apprentice feat, though, you appear to be limited to two at level 1. Honestly, though, 2 minions at level 1 is probably good enough, as long as both are replaceable.) Scrolls or wands would also work, though the former are risky (requiring a caster level check) and expensive to repeat (so use up the minion within 3 days), and the latter are expensive (4800 gp for a 2nd level spell in a wand).

But just in case there are still more tricks: How could one get command undead access earlier than character level 3?

Finally, chain command undead is delicious for handling entire groups of them, and cements one as a true master necromancer, at least on par with anything a cleric is doing with Rebuke or Command. However, that 5th level spell slot means you're two levels behind even the point where you are using animate dead to create your own minions. While you're definitely happy to be beyond depending on the DM to provide you with fodder for your armies, it would be nice to have this either cheaper or (better still) sooner.

Arcane Thesis for command undead seems a touch of a waste, since there aren't really metamagic feats to apply to it usefully aside from Chain Spell.

What are your favorite ideas for getting chain command undead as low-level a spell slot as possible?

Also, when it comes to crafting items (particularly wands), I'm always fuzzy on the specifics of how the spell slot vs. spell level calculates into magic item cost (and, in particular if one wanted, say, a chain command undead wand, if that's even doable since it takes a 5th level spell slot while wands are limited to 4th level and lower...but the spell itself is still technically 2nd level).

Segev
2015-08-10, 03:27 PM
Thinking a bit on my own questions, one thing you could do to furnish your own undead at low level would be to haul the corpse you want back to a decent-sized town and pay a visit to a local evil temple. You need one with 5th level clerics, and you'll want to furnish sufficient onyx (25 gp per HD of corpse), but it's 150 gp to buy a casting of a third level spell. It isn't even unreasonable to request - perhaps for an additional 100 gp, if they don't keep this up continually at their altars anyway - a desecrate spell. Have them animate your corpse (of up to 20 HD, if you're doing this in a desecrate zone around the cleric's unholy altar!) and you command the resulting skeleton or zombie.

This is 150 to 250 gp just to buy the castings, and anywhere from 25 to 500 gp in onyx, not to mention having had to haul this corpse (and the more HD it is, the harder it is to conceal) back to town. So it's hardly trivial. But it is an option.

It may even remain the most reliable option up through 5th or 6th level. At 6th level, you could pick up Undead Leadership (or even regular Leadership), and get yourself a cleric cohort. Though even then, you'll be 7th level before he can cast animate dead, and at that point...so can you.

Spellstitching an undead with animate dead could work, too, but I'm not sure you can get a mindless undead with Wis 14, which is what it takes for 3rd level spells. And if you must use the Sor/Wiz list, you'll need it higher, so you can get 4ths.

Does a spellstitched undead using a spell-like animate dead require the onyx material component?

Troacctid
2015-08-10, 06:57 PM
Play a Death Master. You get Command Undead and Animate Dead as 2nd level spells, and a free undead minion at 1st level, and rebuke undead. That's a lot of minions.

Bonzai
2015-08-10, 09:01 PM
I'm playing a pale master right now. Here are some of the things I am using.

Unearthed Arcana has alternate class feature that allows you to trade up your familiar for a skeletal minion. This lets you start with a minion off the bat.

Summon undead is also a nice stop gap early on.

Metamagic school focus + slaymate = reduces the cost of meta magic for Necromany by 2. Slaymates are also a rare way to reduce the costs below 1. So with both meta magics 2 or less are free. Can certainly help with your chain command undead.

Dragon Magazine has feat called divine Channeler that lets you turn/ rebuke as a cleric 1/2 your level 1/day. Players guide to Faerun has an item called the Shroud crown that lets you turn/rebuke as a 10th Lvl cleric.

There is a feat in eberron who's name escapes me, that lets you rip out the soul of a fallen foe and turn them into a ghost minion.

Plenty of options for arcane Necromancers. It just takes a bit of looking.

Segev
2015-08-11, 08:16 AM
Have you a favorite method for finding and obtaining a slaymate? They are exquisite undead associates for any necromancer, but I know of no good way to create them. Unlike, say, a metamagic rod, which has a market price and thus could conceivably be purchased in play or with starting gold (if you're high enough level to have enough), there's no price listed for one, either. Do you have suggestions, or is this a "ask your DM for one" situation?

Regarding Death Masters, I forget: are they arcane or divine, and what is their casting stat?

Segev
2015-08-11, 08:29 AM
Found the Death Master.

Yeah, they're definitely ideal for minionmancy as early as possible: animate dead, command undead, and desecrate all on their 2nd-level spell list, and they use prepared-caster progression for spell levels, so they have them by level 3. As arcane casters, they're eligible for Precocious Apprentice, too, so could have Animate Dead at level 1. Sure, they're not animating much, but they can do it.

I confess that I'm not a huge fan of the strong tie to Orcus, but that can probably be refluffed away. My mental image of a minionmancer isn't an armored caster, either, so just dropping the blood component entirely is an option.

g3taso
2015-08-11, 08:37 AM
I like the use of Simulacrums to have a quasi-real Slaymate and a quasi-real shadow (2hd and 3hd respectively) for my use. The shadow will create other shadows which are mine to toy with, and having metamagic bennies is pretty awesome. Zombies are great meat shields, but I would rather have incorporeal.

Now, the slick part is you don't have undead shuffling around you. You use Haunt Shift to bind them into convenient stuff like armor, rings or other doodads. They are still aware, and you can have them come out to play when appropriate.

Segev
2015-08-11, 09:13 AM
It'd be hard to make a simulacrum of an incorporeal creature; how would you get the material component? As for a simulacrum of a slaymate...I suppose it's good for ensuring loyalty. But you still have to find one to get the material component in the first place, so you may as well command it. (I'm pretty sure the pale auras wouldn't overlap, but having a slaymate and its simulacrum working for you together creates all sorts of "creepy twins" opportunities.)

I do like haunt shift. If I ever do get to play a proper minionmancer, I have every intention of using it to create pseudo-animated objects. Why have a skeletal horse pulling a coach when the skeleton can haunt the coach and move it directly?

I hadn't considered using it just to "hide" undead on my person in rings and other items; that's fairly clever, since they can still manifest without having to undo the haunt shift effect.

Since we already have Chain Spell, it can also make haunt shifting just a little more efficient. Especially with that slaymate hanging around.

It also occurs to me that command undead benefits from Extend Spell pretty well. In a slaymate's aura, extend chain command undead is still only a 3rd level spell, and can command at least 6 (mindless, because who wants to let them have will saves?) undead of any HD for at least 10 days. That's pretty good for one 3rd level spell slot cast by a 5th level wizard!

Rebel7284
2015-08-11, 09:34 AM
A few things of note.

- Chain Spell comes on Metamagic Wands. They're on the expensive side obviously, but can save a bunch of slots.
- Twin and possibly repeat spell can be used to make this more ridiculous.
- Taking that into account, metamagic reduction seems to be the important step. Slaymates have been mentioned. Arcane Thesis + Incantatrix with some Easy Metamagic/Practical Metamagic/Metamagic School Focus seems optimal.

g3taso
2015-08-11, 10:03 AM
It'd be hard to make a simulacrum of an incorporeal creature; how would you get the material component? As for a simulacrum of a slaymate...I suppose it's good for ensuring loyalty. But you still have to find one to get the material component in the first place, so you may as well command it. (I'm pretty sure the pale auras wouldn't overlap, but having a slaymate and its simulacrum working for you together creates all sorts of "creepy twins" opportunities.)


I'm playing in Pathfinder. No body parts!

Segev
2015-08-11, 10:18 AM
o_o

Just read it thoroughly for the first time. Pathfinder simulacrum is insanely good. Who needs planar binding when you can make just about any useful monster slave you want in your basement?

Though to be fair, Pathfinder kind-of cuts the slaymate out of the picture, unless you're doing a hybrid of PF and 3.5 to bring the monster in.



With a slaymate and Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Chain Spell becomes free to apply to necromancy-school spells, which is pretty good for command undead. Also kind-of hillarious on backbiter. Sure, the save isn't too hard for the secondary targets, but you might get around half of the orc squad that's trying to attack you to instead attack itself, which is always fun.

Any means to get a slaymate earlier than 13th level that anybody can think of? (PF lesser simulacrum would do it at 7th, I suppose; it's still an undead, it recognizes you as its creator, and command undead can still keep it friendly.)


I suppose one could always indulge in one's Evil alignment and actively seek to bring about the conditions under which slaymates arise naturally. Perhaps offer a gp per child for peasants to leave their children in a designated wilderness location where they are all but certain to die of deprivation, and then come by periodically to see if any have arisen.

Segev
2015-08-11, 03:37 PM
Another element with which I'm toying: is there anything that says an altar has to be stationary, or could you, say, plant one in a howdah or hang it around the neck of a Huge zombie like a necklace? Add a magic item that radiates Desecration, and you could put skeleton archers on the back of an altar-festooned zombie mammoth for a more effective than you might expect undead light artillary.

g3taso
2015-08-12, 09:31 AM
I don't see a problem with mobile altars. As I recall, Pathfinder has portable altars in recognition of those divine spellcasters. I would consider a bone collector or some other extremely large undead critter and not an elephant though.

Segev
2015-08-12, 09:57 AM
I don't see a problem with mobile altars. As I recall, Pathfinder has portable altars in recognition of those divine spellcasters. I would consider a bone collector or some other extremely large undead critter and not an elephant though.While I've little to no problem with other kinds of enormous undead, is there a particular reason why a large or huge zombie is not a good choice?

Bonzai
2015-08-12, 12:27 PM
Arms and equipment guide has the price for a portable altar. I have my skeletal minion wear it strapped to its back.

Regarding Slay mates. Undead leadership and the pale master class lets you get an undead cohort.

Or if your willing to ignore rules as intended for rules as written, you can use the shrouds from here; http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x

You will need a way to control it afterward.

Segev
2015-08-12, 12:47 PM
Fortunately, command undead is more than enough to provide the level of control needed for a Slaymate. You're never going to ask them to do anything more onerous than hang around you while you prepare/cast spells, really, so the charm-like effect on intelligent undead is quite sufficient.

Unfortunately, Slaymates don't have "level equivalents" as cohorts, to my knowledge, nor is it specified whether they're created by create undead or create greater undead. Thus, it's hard to say for certain what the minimum Leadership score is to have one as a cohort (let alone a follower), nor which shroud works for making them. Upside: you can probably assume, by the wording of the shroud, that the most expensive version is sufficient, at least.

16k gp is a bit steep, but if you were buying a magic item that lowered your metamagic costs by 2 levels...you'd probably pay it. Still...makes it hard to get at lower level, when it's most useful (due to enabling, say, chain command undead at all before 9th level).

ExLibrisMortis
2015-08-12, 01:16 PM
I would like to point out that command undead does not function in an antimagic field, it can be dispelled, and it shows up as aura on detect magic. Make sure your elite forces, sneaks, and bodyguards, are still manually-created undead, which are under your permanent control, as per the instantaneous nature of animate dead.

You can use a level in Halruaan Elder to reduce the metamagic cost of Chain Spell by one. At second level, you get the ability to spontaneously cast one spell on your list, and circle magic at 5th level, extending the duration of command undead to 40 days. You need 10 ranks in Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft, and 4th-level spells, so this can happen at 8-12th level at the earliest. It also takes four feats to enter, though you'll already have two of them (Scribe Scroll and Chain Spell).

Segev
2015-08-12, 01:25 PM
Hm. Good point on dispel and anti-magic field. Pity animate dead automatically makes the newest ones the ones you control; that makes it harder to juggle your forces appropriately. Does make the cleric's Rebuke/Command power more useful once again.

Undead Leadership may be part of the way to go. It's not like the mindless undead Followers will object to however you choose to treat them. Really should probably try to get your cohort to BE a cleric, just so he can handle things like Rebuke/Commanding minions which get out of hand for some reason.

How does Haluuran Elder compare to Red Wizard for this purpose?

I'm mostly focused, right now, on getting the most undead at the lowest level possible, but that doesn't mean the higher-level tricks are not worthwhile to explore!

Heck, on the subject of higher-level effects, is there a way to make control undead useful? It seems too short-duration, to me. 7th level and it only lasts for a few minutes.

Maybe for dealing with spawn-creating undead? Are spawn controlled mentally, or does the master have to give verbal instruction? Controlling a wight, for example, and having it order its spawn to obey you, then sealing that wight away where it cannot speak to its spawn again before control undead wears off... would that work to give you control of its spawn as long as you kept it locked away?

ExLibrisMortis
2015-08-12, 01:57 PM
I think Halruaan Elder is better than Red Wizard, unless you need to get Circle Magic at 10th level.

To enter, HE requires an item creation feat, a metamagic feat, Spell Thematics and Halruaan Adept (which is basically Skill Focus (Spellcraft), but you also get to join circles). You also need two knowledges at rank 10, and diplomacy at 5.
RW requires Tattoo Focus (+1 to DCs and +1 to overcome SR for your chosen school) and a total of at least three metamagic and item creation feats. So that's four feats each, with RW requiring slightly better ones.
Both need to be humans from Faerūn, and members of an organization, but that's a bit DM-dependant. If you want to be good, RW is right out, though.
HE requires 4th-level arcane spells, RW only third-level.

Both are full casting, low BAB, good will save, d4 hit die. The Elder gets Decipher Script, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, the Wizard gets Bluff and Intimidate, both get Concentration, Craft, Knowledges, Profession, Spellcraft, at two skill points per level. Not much between them at all.

The Elder can pick four different metamagic feats at levels 1, 4, 7 and 10, reducing their cost by one, to a minimum of one.
The Wizard gets +1 caster level for their specialist school at levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10, and +1 on saves against their school at levels 1, 3, 7 and 9.
The Elder gets three bonus feats, at 2nd, 5th and 8th level, all of which are Signature Spell (cast one spell spontaneously, converting prepared slots).
The Wizard gets a wizard bonus feat (metamagic, item creation, Spell Mastery).
Both get Circle Magic at 5, but only a Red Wizard can lead a greater circle, with 10 participants.
Red Wizards also get the ability to scribe tattoos, to make other Red Wizards, and they have to give up a school of magic.

Now, the main reason I think HE is better, is that +5 caster level (for one school only) isn't so great next to the 40 we already have from Circle Magic. Cost reductions on metamagic feats, however, are very valuable, and the HE Adroit Casting ability stacks with other cost reducers (and isn't school-limited). The ability to cast three spells spontaneously is pretty nice, too, and, if DCS is an option, the feats can pay for the entry requirements.

HE also plays nicer with Incantatrix, since losing schools gets more painful the more you give up. A necromancer wizard 5/RW 5/incantatrix 3 has lost four schools, which hurts. You keep necromancy, abjuration, divination, you ban enchantment, evocation, and illusion. Now you're left with conjuration and transmutation, and one has to go - that's a tough cut to make. I'd rather be necromancer 5/incantatrix 3/HE 5, with three banned schools.

Segev
2015-08-12, 02:05 PM
You don't have to be Good or Neutral to be a Haluuran Elder?

ExLibrisMortis
2015-08-12, 02:42 PM
You don't have to be Good or Neutral to be a Haluuran Elder?
No, but you have to be accepted as Elder, which involves a background check, including divinations.

Segev
2015-08-12, 02:45 PM
No, but you have to be accepted as Elder, which involves a background check, including divinations.

While obviously the organization can be refluffed however a player and DM want, what is the default assumption for the kind of qualifications they are looking for as written? What are their "red lines" which, if you've crossed, they're probably going to say "no, no, heck no?"




Also, if anybody has insight as to whether the trick with controling spawn-creating undead just long enough for them to order their spawn to obey you, then sealing them away so they cannot rescind the order, would work, I'm curious.

Rebel7284
2015-08-12, 03:30 PM
16k gp is a bit steep, but if you were buying a magic item that lowered your metamagic costs by 2 levels...you'd probably pay it. Still...makes it hard to get at lower level, when it's most useful (due to enabling, say, chain command undead at all before 9th level).

For comparison, a lesser metamagic rod of chain spell is 27,200 gp which reduces the cost by three levels, but only 3 times a day.

ExLibrisMortis
2015-08-12, 03:57 PM
While obviously the organization can be refluffed however a player and DM want, what is the default assumption for the kind of qualifications they are looking for as written? What are their "red lines" which, if you've crossed, they're probably going to say "no, no, heck no?"
Well, time to read up on Halruaa... (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Halruaa)

(time passes)

It seems the country was mostly LG, making it hard to enter the class as C/E necromancer. On the other hand, it's a mostly-human country. It seems unlikely that there isn't a corrupt Evil Elder somewhere, which is you, if you want to be C/E. Defeating the divination background check is probably pretty tough, but possible. You just have to make sure you don't act C/E where people can see.

At least there's no actual requirement to be non-good, so you won't lose your class features switching alignment later on, and it can help convince DMs to allow C/E entry.

The country was also destroyed in the Spellplague, so you may be able to craft a backstory about surviving, mutated Halruaans.

Sagetim
2015-08-12, 05:31 PM
Well, time to read up on Halruaa... (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Halruaa)

(time passes)

It seems the country was mostly LG, making it hard to enter the class as C/E necromancer. On the other hand, it's a mostly-human country. It seems unlikely that there isn't a corrupt Evil Elder somewhere, which is you, if you want to be C/E. Defeating the divination background check is probably pretty tough, but possible. You just have to make sure you don't act C/E where people can see.

At least there's no actual requirement to be non-good, so you won't lose your class features switching alignment later on, and it can help convince DMs to allow C/E entry.

The country was also destroyed in the Spellplague, so you may be able to craft a backstory about surviving, mutated Halruaans.

As long as the class doesn't specifically require you to be good, then you don't need to be good to qualify. Even with magical background checks and a bunch of lawful good guys on the elder council, they aren't lawful stupid. They know that at some point they're going to want a powerful necromancer on their side to do the animating undead army thing to protect their homeland against thayans, and having that guy on the elder council already and ready to go with his full shtick means they can spring that option immediately when they need it instead of having to wait for the guy to get his stuff together, maybe gain some levels, and so on.

g3taso
2015-08-12, 08:19 PM
Hm. Good point on dispel and anti-magic field. Pity animate dead automatically makes the newest ones the ones you control; that makes it harder to juggle your forces appropriately. Does make the cleric's Rebuke/Command power more useful once again.

Maybe for dealing with spawn-creating undead? Are spawn controlled mentally, or does the master have to give verbal instruction? Controlling a wight, for example, and having it order its spawn to obey you, then sealing that wight away where it cannot speak to its spawn again before control undead wears off... would that work to give you control of its spawn as long as you kept it locked away?


Here's a favorite for the non-smart ones I love!
Undead Eyes
(Shadows of the Last War, p. 20)

Necromancy
Level: Cleric 2, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 2,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Target: One mindless undead creature
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell allows the user to form a telepathic link with a mindless undead creature that the caster has first cast control undead upon. The telepathic link provides two benefits. First, the caster can issue telepathic commands to the target (with the normal restrictions for control undead). Second the caster can form a sense-link to the target as a free action. This link allows the caster to see and hear through the senses of the undead creature.

While using the sense-link, the caster is considered stunned; he cannot take any physical actions and is only dimly aware of events going on around him.

Focus: The caster must possess a piece of the body of the undead creature he links with – a tuft of hair, sliver of bone, a finger or something similar. If the focus of the link is removed from the caster, the link is broken.

Segev
2015-08-12, 09:40 PM
That's a neat spell. Tragically, per the RAW, it requires you to have cast control undead, not command undead, which means that you need to be able to cast 7th level spells before you can use it! :smallfrown:

Sagetim
2015-08-12, 10:25 PM
That's a neat spell. Tragically, per the RAW, it requires you to have cast control undead, not command undead, which means that you need to be able to cast 7th level spells before you can use it! :smallfrown:

That's probably a typo, to be fair.

Segev
2015-08-13, 12:15 AM
That's probably a typo, to be fair.

Likely. One would hope.

Segev
2015-08-14, 04:28 PM
Thinking on the dispel magic problem, there's little to be done about the targetted version. However, if they're using dispel magic one by one on your minions, you can probably win that fight if you care to just by commanding them again. Maybe even chain command undead after they've freed several.

The area dispel will be more concerning, but it seems that this, too, could be mitigted. The trick is to get a number of spells onto your minions that are higher-CL than your command undead spell, so that area dispels will most likely knock out an ablative spell.

The question is: what is the best way to get as many such ablative, throw-away effects onto your minions as cheaply as possible? You're either going to have to cut a day out of the duration of your command undead by lowering it a CL, or you're going to need to get higher-than-your-normal-CL onto these ablative effects, too.

ExLibrisMortis
2015-08-14, 08:45 PM
I don't see a easy way to get around the CL problem, mainly because a necromancer wouldn't be investing in CL boosts specific to non-necromancy spells. Even if you could stack enough high-CL spells, every buff/ablative spell you cast goes out of your control pool, as it is limited by your spell slots. I would just keep a number of animated intelligent-ish undead around your commanded mindless undead troops; if the dispel magic works, you can keep an eye on the now-freed undead, and mindless undead don't attack undead, so it's quite safe.

Segev
2015-08-17, 03:53 PM
Hm, good point. Undead Leadership-controlled undead are also good for that kind of duty; they are (mechanically) not magically controlled in the first place.

And nothing prevents you from just extended chain command undeading the dispelled minions again later. I mean, if you're already reducing Chain Spell to +1 or +0, may as well take advantage with a free Extend.

g3taso
2015-08-17, 09:57 PM
Thinking on the dispel magic problem, there's little to be done about the targetted version. However, if they're using dispel magic one by one on your minions, you can probably win that fight if you care to just by commanding them again. Maybe even chain command undead after they've freed several.

The area dispel will be more concerning, but it seems that this, too, could be mitigted. The trick is to get a number of spells onto your minions that are higher-CL than your command undead spell, so that area dispels will most likely knock out an ablative spell.

The question is: what is the best way to get as many such ablative, throw-away effects onto your minions as cheaply as possible? You're either going to have to cut a day out of the duration of your command undead by lowering it a CL, or you're going to need to get higher-than-your-normal-CL onto these ablative effects, too.

Ablative effects are easily achieved. Take the leader undead and use a glyph seal to place a contingent spell immunity (dispel magic, and something else) on a stoppered vial or similar. If you are a Pathfinder player like myself, you could even use Blood Money to get around any material costs.

g3taso
2015-08-17, 10:18 PM
Well if we are talking about maximizing the efficiency of Command Undead...

Let's take a 13th level spellcaster with access to Command Undead, Undead Eyes, and general access to stuff. With chained Command Undead, really the sky is the limit for how many undead you can control so long as they are unintelligent. With almost two weeks between spell durations (just shy a month with an Extend rod). Really, casting Command Undead once daily works. Now use Awaken Undead on the leaders. Now you still control them but they are smart, and these are the guys who you cast (chained) Undead Eyes on.

Now that takes care of unintelligent undead. Now find a nice wraith or spectre and Command Undead on it (the feat), or a nice Threnodic spell with to force them to spawn and have control transferred. Command them as well, and not only do they obey you without question but actively LIKE you. Taking note of the spirit as well as the letter of instructions makes like happy.