Dragon with full spellcasting and abilities from previous editions

[supergoji18]

I feel that 5e really cut down on the power of dragons compared to older editions. My group was going to start Hoard of the Dragon Queen soon and I was considering modifying the dragons so they might become more challenging. However, with the way the game is designed with "bounded accuracy" I was wondering ff full spellcasting dragons was too much for pcs to handle in this edition.

The way I would handle it, the dragons would have a spellcasting level equal to their CR. They would use the sorcerer's spellcasting rules, but could select from the wizard spell list (and from the some domain cleric list). They would also possess some of the spell-like abilities dragons had (they would get them at around the same age category they did in the d20srd website). Example, a Young Red Dragon would have the spellcasting of a level 10 sorcerer, and would possess the ability to use Locate Object.

A few other changes I would make: Ancient Dragons possess magic resistance and dragons young and older would have their attacks treated as magical.

Is this too powerful for the 5e system?

[Daishain]

AFB so I can't look at the details, but the DMG already has spellcasting for dragons as an optional rule. It could probably do with some tweaking, but no I don't think it would break anything (aside from needing to adjust for difficulty)

[ImSAMazing]

I find the spellcasting variant for Dragons in the MM good enough. Spells equal his cha mod, max lvl of 1/3 CR

[Vogonjeltz]

A few other changes I would make: Ancient Dragons possess magic resistance and dragons young and older would have their attacks treated as magical.

Is this too powerful for the 5e system?

It's not a good idea to make changes if you don't yet know what effect they'll have.

Impacts as I see them:
1) Magical weaponry severely undercuts the value of Heavy Armor Master and the Armor of Invulnerability. Also the 17th level class feature of the War Domain Cleric, Avatar of Battle. There are probably other examples, but they may or may not apply to your group.

2) Regarding spells you're looking at one of two outcomes:

Either the dragons normal actions are better than using the new spells available, in which case there's zero additional threat, or the spells will be used, in which case only you really know which spells are being used and are in the best position to gauge the added threat.

[Ralanr]

Do they fight dragons more than once? If so, see how challenging a fight against a nonmagical dragon is first.

[MaxWilson]

I feel that 5e really cut down on the power of dragons compared to older editions. My group was going to start Hoard of the Dragon Queen soon and I was considering modifying the dragons so they might become more challenging. However, with the way the game is designed with "bounded accuracy" I was wondering ff full spellcasting dragons was too much for pcs to handle in this edition.

The way I would handle it, the dragons would have a spellcasting level equal to their CR. They would use the sorcerer's spellcasting rules, but could select from the wizard spell list (and from the some domain cleric list). They would also possess some of the spell-like abilities dragons had (they would get them at around the same age category they did in the d20srd website). Example, a Young Red Dragon would have the spellcasting of a level 10 sorcerer, and would possess the ability to use Locate Object.

A few other changes I would make: Ancient Dragons possess magic resistance and dragons young and older would have their attacks treated as magical.

Is this too powerful for the 5e system?

That's pretty similar to what I do. I don't let them pick from the wizard spell list, but I do give them bonus spells from the sorc list the same way I give bonus spells to wild/dragon sorcerers (house rule).

It does make them way more powerful, and negates many of the easiest dragon-killing strategies. E.g. minionmancy is a poor bet against a dragon with Shield and Darkness + blindsight plus Dimension Door. The dragon gets way better at exploiting its own action economy via Quickened spells (Breath Fire + Quickened Blink) and Counterspell.

But it's not "too powerful." A vanilla 5E ancient red dragon is a cakewalk for a 20th level party, but an ancient red dragon/Dragon Sorcerer 19 is still scary. Beatable, but scary. The added unpredictability, and countermeasure/countercountermeasure play, makes the game more fun. Plus it lets ancient dragons have cool toys in their lair like True Polymorphed Magma Golems and such, to make life unpleasant for invaders.

If you like straightforward fights where the PCs go in without recon, adding sorc levels beyond Sorc 2 will probably make the PCs die. If you like strategic threats where the PCs have an incentive to be sneaky, gain intel, and create contingency plans for their contingency plans, dragons with sorc levels are probably just about right.

[rhouck]

Is this too powerful for the 5e system?

Are you changing the CR of the dragon to reflect your changes? If yes, then it is fine. You can scale the fight around the updated CR. Refer to the DMG for what the updated CR would be, and how difficult the fight is likely to be.

I would not make the change without adjusting CR as well. The changes you propose are not minor.

FWIW I too believe that dragons should have spellcasting. As suggested above, you might look at the listed Variant rule in the Monster Manual and decide if that is sufficient. Access to 2nd level spells helps a lot, with things like Misty Step getting around otherwise impenetrable spells. And 3rd for Counterspell and Dispel Magic. I'd be cautious about much higher level spells, as well as granting additional AoE options.

I'd also be cautious about the magic resistance, as dragons already have some formidable saves and can have legendary resistance. That's already enough to give spell casters a hard time. Also note that magic resistances is no longer a scaling percentage, but uses the advantage mechanic.

[ImSAMazing]

I don't see the need to change the abilities of Dragons. They are powerful enough.

[pwykersotz]

I'd avoid adding too many spells, just for ease of running the monster. Tons of spells add a lot of bookwork. But yeah, run the updated dragon through the CR system at least, and consider the consequences and how reasonable the encounter is if the dragon has anything which the party has no defense against.

[RazDelacroix]

My recommendation is to go with the variant rule presented in the Monster Manual. Test it out with your players, see if it works for your needs.

[MeeposFire]

I actually think having all these flavors present in the best idea.

If there isa more minor dragon (or you want to show off this dragon as being less than the others) it can be the standard dragon with no spells.

Later dragons with the the spell casting variant will be used to show off more powerful stronger dragons.

Eventually if you want a more unique creature you can have a dragon with more significant spell casting than that. This will require more work but since it will likely be a one time thing in terms of creation this is ok.

Note that doing it this way in the story doe snot just provide you with an increasing arc of difficulty for you and your players but it also lets you test out each version to see how you like each one and when you would like to use each. You may find the standard spell casting variant to be more than enough or you may decide that the extra spell casting is worth the hassle.

[Nifft]

Lair Actions can be pretty magical.

But yeah, since I do like the idea that dragons are a source of magic spells for Sorcerers, thus it seems a bit silly if dragons don't get any Sorcerer-like magic spells.

I would not give them very many.

[Rhaegar14]

The one reason I will advise against this is that a lot of people think Hoard of the Dragon Queen is already difficult without you buffing the oodles of dragons present in the adventure. If you do this definitely be prepared to reevaluate the challenge of the encounters.

[supergoji18]

the concensus seems to be that it wont be too broken if rebalanced. Seems fair.

I think i'm going to just give the dragons arbitrary levels in spellcasting because if I base it on their CR as I initially intended, it creates a paradox where the higher CR causes higher spellcasting, which causes higher CR, etc.

I'll post it later, but the way i'm going to handle it is something like this:
- wyrmlings wont get any spellcasting
- Young dragons get low-level casting (level 2-3 sorcerer kind)
- Adults get mid-level (8-12)
- Ancients get high level (15-20)

Also, I might make the Magic Resistance feature something for Ancients only, and the Magic Weapons thing for Adults and Ancients.

[kaoskonfety]

For the most part I already do this to dragons but the bulk of their spells land in the "not combat" arena. Rituals, long term defencive magics and subtle mental effects over fireball and power word kill on the grounds most of them are of the opinion are already doing enough raw damage (there will always be that one nut job dragon tho... he does not get invited to the dragon games and his lair is in a miles wide blasted wasteland - he blasted it, practicing). This has a reduced to no effect on their CR but leaves them with say a teleportation circle network linking their lairs, illusory treasure hordes as adventurer bait, 'ye' old' Guards and Wards cast on the old keep in front of their lair and so on. Make the lead up and follow up more interesting without murdering players outright.

[Karnack]

I've currently been working on giving dragons back the spellcasting and spell like abilties as well. Don't get me wrong, dragons as they are in the MM are fine and are perfectly nasty when used right.

They just look more like Dragonlite versons of what they used to be. Now the reason they took all the extra options dragons had was to make it alot more streamlined, simplier and less of a headache to run a dragon encounter for a DM. And thats fine it means in the games I run I can drop one of them in at any time and not have to think to much about it from a combat standpoint.

But the reality is that unless you are running a Draconic specific campagin you are only likely to fight one. And that dragon is going to be the BBEG or a very close ally of the BBEG, they are going to be important to the story in a major way. So throw in the spellcasting, even a few class levels in something else. Make them special, because there supposed to be.

As far as spells go a dragon isn't going to have much use for damaging ones as people have said, there breath weapons and melee attacks do plenty of damage already. They might pick up a few for varity as the beastie is going to know it's likely the party might well find ways to ethier resist or ignore its breath damage type. Spells like Mirror image and Blur will make them a hell of alot hard to hit, illusions, area denial spells and disabling spells such as phantasmal force, hold person, dominate, wall of stone and the like are the ones that will be most useful to them. That and any round the dragon is casting a spell is a round it isn't multiattacking or using its breath weapon.

Ultimatly it's your game, if you think your players will enjoy it more then go for it.

[HoarsHalberd]

the concensus seems to be that it wont be too broken if rebalanced. Seems fair.

I think i'm going to just give the dragons arbitrary levels in spellcasting because if I base it on their CR as I initially intended, it creates a paradox where the higher CR causes higher spellcasting, which causes higher CR, etc.

I'll post it later, but the way i'm going to handle it is something like this:
- wyrmlings wont get any spellcasting
- Young dragons get low-level casting (level 2-3 sorcerer kind)
- Adults get mid-level (8-12)
- Ancients get high level (15-20)

Also, I might make the Magic Resistance feature something for Ancients only, and the Magic Weapons thing for Adults and Ancients.

Magic resistance is quite frankly monstrous. This isn't 3.5 where magic resistance was needed to prevent all groups going full caster. Combine that with an Ancient Dragons legendary resistance and a roll to save effect is worthless.