Draconomicon Question

[SangoProduction]

So, you can ride your Dragon Cohort as a mount. But, for whatever reason, you can't get a real dragon as a mount with Dragon Mount (or whatever), in the same book, until extremely late (level 12 or 15 for a medium character, I believe?). Not to mention other issues like, Cohort having its own gold, and the Mount requiring you to pay it per HD...

So, would it be reasonable to allow Paladins with Dragon Cohort to apply their Special Mount bonuses to it? I really don't want to ride a derp cow until I get the opportunity to get a real dragon.

[Elandris Kajar]

I don't see any reason why not. I believe there is a picture to that effect.

[daremetoidareyo]

I really don't want to ride a derp cow until I get the opportunity to get a real dragon.

Classic magikarp conundrum.

[SangoProduction]

Classic magikarp conundrum.

Not really, especially considering the other feat is even more powerful even at later levels - just a few reasons explained above, already. The entry entry mount for the Dragon Mount being a derp cow doesn't make the later ones any better.

[Twurps]

A paladin using his/her cohort as a special mount is explicitly mentioned in the DMG (p200). Very little guidence is given on how this would work however (none that I could find anyway).

Paladin mount boni increase as the power disparity between character and mount increase. (paladin level vs. mount HD+modifiers) If the mount gains HD as you level up, the mount boni will stay marginal at best. Wost case, the HD increase renders your cohort illegal as your special mount.

[SangoProduction]

A paladin using his/her cohort as a special mount is explicitly mentioned in the DMG (p200). Very little guidence is given on how this would work however (none that I could find anyway).

Paladin mount boni increase as the power disparity between character and mount increase. (paladin level vs. mount HD+modifiers) If the mount gains HD as you level up, the mount boni will stay marginal at best. Wost case, the HD increase renders your cohort illegal as your special mount.

Thanks for pointing that out. I do want to know where you are getting the "mount boni" thing from. The rules presented there say to just increase the ECL of the mount by 2.
Are you just trying to suggest a house rule for it, or am I missing something?

[Twurps]

Thanks for pointing that out. I do want to know where you are getting the "mount boni" thing from. The rules presented there say to just increase the ECL of the mount by 2.
Are you just trying to suggest a house rule for it, or am I missing something?

Basic special mount rules are on p45 of the PH. When using 'unusual mounts' however, these rules need to be adjusted according to p204/p205 of the DMG. Basically: A paladin can select a mount with a CR up to 3 less than his paladin level (4 less if the mount can fly). Draconomicon has its own rules for dragons specifically(p139) and has a list of available dragons per paladin level. It seems to apply an additional -2(ish) because dragon. So you end up with something like CR of mount = paladin level-6, with a bonus increase at CR of mount = paladin level-9

Say you are a (small) lvl 12 Paladin, and you have gold wyrmling cohort (using the dragon cohort feat). now you select it as your mount with 'Dragon steed' feat.
As per p205 of the DMG, your leadership score takes a -2 hit because you have a special mount. It also states however, the combining of mount and cohort warrants a Extra 2 adjustment to the ECL (I'm assuming this is in the cohort calculation as mount calculations aren't based on ECL) So your leadership score has just taken what is effectively a -4 hit. This might mean it takes a while before it can ever level as a cohort.

If your leadership-score is high enough to not have a problem leveling, then the CR of the mount will increase at a rate close to the rate the paladin is leveling, and you will never get to CR of mount = paladin level-9 for the next level of mount boni.

Effectively: Even though you combine cohort and mount, you only get the benefit of 1 of them.

The easy fix: don't adjust the ECL/CR of your cohort/mount when calculating when an increase is due. So don't let the XP gained as a cohort icrease the CR when determining special mount boni and vice versa.

[Crake]

if you want to have a lot of fun, go paladin 5/prestige ranger 15, get devoted tracker, and convince your DM to let you get the holy mount feat from dragon magazine 325, natural bond and dragon mount. That would give you full paladin mount progression, along with having your paladin mount be given the bonuses of 18 levels of animal companion. Sure, the dragon doesn't come online any faster, but when you DO get it, it's insane.

In the meantime just get a drakkensteed from dragon magic, it's practically a dragon in looks, and you can trade up when you qualify.

[SangoProduction]

That book looks pretty cool. Also Drakensteed not being a derp cow is a great plus in my book.

[Nifft]

Thanks for pointing that out. I do want to know where you are getting the "mount boni" thing from. The rules presented there say to just increase the ECL of the mount by 2.
Are you just trying to suggest a house rule for it, or am I missing something?

IMHO a fair Mount Cohort would be to allow your Cohort to gain (PC level - 2) class levels in place of that many racial HD.

If a Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm#celestialCharger) is allowed to be a Cleric, then I have no problem with a celestial dragon-cow special mount being a Marshal/Crusader or whatever.

[marphod]

if you want to have a lot of fun, go paladin 5/prestige ranger 15, get devoted tracker, and convince your DM to let you get the holy mount feat from dragon magazine 325, natural bond and dragon mount.

You first need to convince the DM to let a non-prestige Paladin exist in the same world as a Prestige Ranger, which while possible falls into the 'unlikely' category.

Then you need to add Calm Animals to your spell list. Without using a feat.

You will also need to be a Human (presumably Silverbrow to avoid the Draconic Fear) so you can get the required sub-par feats (Endurance, Track, and either TWF or Rapid Shot).

You've also added Int to the list of stats you can't dump, as you're putting 12 ranks worth into Knowledge(Nature) and Survival (neither class skills). So you're now even more MAD, having 16+int*8 skill points, needing to spend 12 of the prerequisites, and probably wanting to put 5 into Knowledge(Religion) for the +2 to turning checks and something into Concentration for your eventual spells. Not to mention your actually useful skills like Sense Motive. Diplomacy, and (given you're doing this for the mount) Ride.

Then you need to convince your DM to let this monstrosity take a multiclassing feat that doesn't make any sense existing when using the Prestige Ranger (and debatably won't work, as the class is Prestige Ranger, not Ranger).

It is at that point that you THEN get to convince the DM to let you use a feat from Dragon Magazine.

[Crake]

You first need to convince the DM to let a non-prestige Paladin exist in the same world as a Prestige Ranger, which while possible falls into the 'unlikely' category.

Then you need to add Calm Animals to your spell list. Without using a feat.

You will also need to be a Human (presumably Silverbrow to avoid the Draconic Fear) so you can get the required sub-par feats (Endurance, Track, and either TWF or Rapid Shot).

You've also added Int to the list of stats you can't dump, as you're putting 12 ranks worth into Knowledge(Nature) and Survival (neither class skills). So you're now even more MAD, having 16+int*8 skill points, needing to spend 12 of the prerequisites, and probably wanting to put 5 into Knowledge(Religion) for the +2 to turning checks and something into Concentration for your eventual spells. Not to mention your actually useful skills like Sense Motive. Diplomacy, and (given you're doing this for the mount) Ride.

Then you need to convince your DM to let this monstrosity take a multiclassing feat that doesn't make any sense existing when using the Prestige Ranger (and debatably won't work, as the class is Prestige Ranger, not Ranger).

It is at that point that you THEN get to convince the DM to let you use a feat from Dragon Magazine.

I've done it in the past, sooo.... Not impossible.

[Twurps]

I've done it in the past, sooo.... Not impossible.

With a DM that permissive, there's better builds out there. This is getting very close to the supermount and/or ubermount build.
I guess the supermount started here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/967311). The initial build is actually only 19 levels long. Ad paladin 6 for nice ACF's for mounts.

for dragon magazine/ubermount shenenigans, this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239524-Making-my-Ubermount!) has some 'not too cheesy' suggestions and was a fun read. Though I don't think snowbluf ever did post her final build. There are some much cheesier builds out there that I'm sure a quick google search on 'ubermount' will reveal.

[Crake]

With a DM that permissive, there's better builds out there. This is getting very close to the supermount and/or ubermount build.
I guess the supermount started here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/967311). The initial build is actually only 19 levels long. Ad paladin 6 for nice ACF's for mounts.

for dragon magazine/ubermount shenenigans, this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239524-Making-my-Ubermount!) has some 'not too cheesy' suggestions and was a fun read. Though I don't think snowbluf ever did post her final build. There are some much cheesier builds out there that I'm sure a quick google search on 'ubermount' will reveal.

If your DM is being permissive, and you abuse that by going for build strength over flavor (which is what I was aiming for with this build, dude with a powerful dragon mount), you aren't gonna have a permissive DM for that long.