Build Help! Goliath/Human Warblade 20 vs. Snow Elf Warblade10/Eternal Warrior10

[Dusto]

Hello everyone!

Looking for a bit of advice and/or build information. I just hit level 15 and we got the option to rewrite our character builds. Currently I am a human swordsage14/warblade1 and am looking at going more damage and/or cool stuff. Notable equipment I have, and new equipment shouldn't be relied on getting, is +5 mithral chainmail, +5 spiked chain, +6 strength belt, +6 dexterity gloves and ring of sustenance w/ +4 constitution. I did trade in my +6 wisdom necklace as part of the deal for getting to rewrite.

Anywho, I am tossing around the idea of going smashy smashy with either a goliath or human warblade 20 build or looking at shooting for an eternal blade build as I believe we will get to epic level before the end of this campaign.

Our base rules are 32pt build, preferred classes enforced, 3.5 base printed only (no dragon magazine, no d20, no "kinda 3.0/3.5".

Any input or even build ideas would be much appreciated! Thank you!

[OldTrees1]

What combat style are you looking for?

Goliaths can become Large size rather easily with a level of Barbarian. This opens them up to things like the Knockback(may send someone flying after every hit) feat and War Hulk 4's Mighty Swing(your attacks hit 3 squares of targets). But those require dipping away from Warblade.

[Dusto]

I did do the knockback thing for a bit way back in the day and the DM became very annoyed with it and "fought back". I'm sticking with my spiked chain, so maybe a lockdown type build or something else with some tricks. I'd say we have a lowish power level game so not looking for any uber breaking combos. Though I am NG...I wonder if I should look into that frenzied beserker with the BoED feat?

[marphod]

Your Swordsage isn't doing enough damage/doesn't have enough cool stuff? What Maneuvers and Stances do you have? You're going from 22 Manuevers and 6 stances to 11 and 3 (or 11 and 4, if you mean Eternal Blade).

You're also swapping your AC bonus, a +3 to initiative and reflex saves, the two best saves at good progression, Sense Magic, Evasion, your Wisdom bonus to damage for some of your manuevers and +2 to all saving throws for some stances for +4 BAB, Terrivble save progression, Improved Uncanny, Int to confirm criticals, int to damage on flat footed/flanked opponents, and a few bonus feats (10 warblade) plus anotyher bonus feat and int to AoOs and tripping/bull rush/overrun/etc or 3 eternal training uses a day, an at will, swift action that gets you a weaker version of Mountain Hammer, and bonuses to knowledge checks. You also loose a lot of skills in exchange for some hit points.

The swap would have made sense at 11th (maybe, 3rd attack per round and before some of the best of the Swordsage comes online), but at 15th, it seems weird.

Your Warblade Manuevers should be (currently) Iron Heart Surge, Wall of Blades, and either Lightning Recovery or Mithral Tornado. From Swordsage, you've should have access to the Diamond Mind's 4 save counters, Greater Insightful Strike, Shadow Blink (swift action teleport), Ancient Mountain Hammer (bypass DR< +12d6) and some of the lesser versions, Pouncing Charge, a stance that grants always on water walk or blindsense, strikes with respectable Strength, Wisdom, and Dexterity drains, short term Greater Invisibility, and a bunch of other tricks.

You're not going to really compete in the neat tricks department with a Warblade build.

[OldTrees1]

I did do the knockback thing for a bit way back in the day and the DM became very annoyed with it and "fought back". I'm sticking with my spiked chain, so maybe a lockdown type build or something else with some tricks. I'd say we have a lowish power level game so not looking for any uber breaking combos. Though I am NG...I wonder if I should look into that frenzied beserker with the BoED feat?

Consider taking Knock-down. Now, on each hit, you will get to trip the fool. Adds a nice bit of lockdown to every strike maneuver.

[Dusto]

Your Swordsage isn't doing enough damage/doesn't have enough cool stuff? What Maneuvers and Stances do you have? You're going from 22 Manuevers and 6 stances to 11 and 3 (or 11 and 4, if you mean Eternal Blade).

You're also swapping your AC bonus, a +3 to initiative and reflex saves, the two best saves at good progression, Sense Magic, Evasion, your Wisdom bonus to damage for some of your manuevers and +2 to all saving throws for some stances for +4 BAB, Terrivble save progression, Improved Uncanny, Int to confirm criticals, int to damage on flat footed/flanked opponents, and a few bonus feats (10 warblade) plus anotyher bonus feat and int to AoOs and tripping/bull rush/overrun/etc or 3 eternal training uses a day, an at will, swift action that gets you a weaker version of Mountain Hammer, and bonuses to knowledge checks. You also loose a lot of skills in exchange for some hit points.

The swap would have made sense at 11th (maybe, 3rd attack per round and before some of the best of the Swordsage comes online), but at 15th, it seems weird.

Your Warblade Manuevers should be (currently) Iron Heart Surge, Wall of Blades, and either Lightning Recovery or Mithral Tornado. From Swordsage, you've should have access to the Diamond Mind's 4 save counters, Greater Insightful Strike, Shadow Blink (swift action teleport), Ancient Mountain Hammer (bypass DR< +12d6) and some of the lesser versions, Pouncing Charge, a stance that grants always on water walk or blindsense, strikes with respectable Strength, Wisdom, and Dexterity drains, short term Greater Invisibility, and a bunch of other tricks.

You're not going to really compete in the neat tricks department with a Warblade build.

Yeah, the tricks aren't going to be as cool for sure but I've already started the process so I can't roll back unless I want to without my +6 wisdom item now. When it became clear that we were going to hit epic before the end of the campaign, that's when I thought it would be neat to get warblade 20 for the dual stance, or eternal blade for the capstone ability.

[Lerondiel]

...Currently I am a human swordsage14/warblade1 and am looking at going more damage and/or cool stuff....

More damage/cool stuff than the swordsage's kitbag?? You must be talking about average damage in the full round attack slugging. For that and AoO/Lockdown builds, Tome of Battle isn't really the right place to be looking. Mobility is a big component.
ToB is for countless combos such as a move action shadow stride across the battlefield before a boost to do Con damage on top of a strike to do double your Concentration check in hit points while in a stance that lets you divert their first attack against an ally and then parry their second attack.....thats not the best sample but its very cool.


May I suggest:
Sorc1/War5/Jade Phoenix5/Swordsage4...beg/borrow/steal a ring of wizardry 2...then finish with Master of Nine 5

On 20th level it loses its 4th BAB, but with at least 14 rounds of power attack Wraithstriking per day you're not going to notice.

At 15th level you've dropped from your previous 22 to 18 maneuvers, but it should be enough to qualify for most of the show stopping ones by positioning Master of Nine right at the end with 8 more maneuvers.

If it were me, call me crazy, but I'd even swap out a level of JPM for Crusader and get back to 22...and gain access to all top Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart

EDIT: Just saw your comment about dual stances....Master of Nine has a harsh feat tax but you do keep the dual stance

[marphod]

May I suggest:
Sorc1/War5/Jade Phoenix5/Swordsage4...beg/borrow/steal a ring of wizardry 2...then finish with Master of Nine 5


The OP expressed interest in a 20th level base class or the terminus of a 10+ prestige class by 20th, as they are going Epic.

I'm not saying that that's the best idea in the world, but it is what the OP seems to want.


EDIT: Just saw your comment about dual stances....Master of Nine has a harsh feat tax but you do keep the dual stance

You get that with a 2 level dip.

Consider asking your DM to back out. Pick up 2 levels of master of nine, and hit epic at 17 Swordsage/1War/2Master of 9. It takes 3 more levels to get to Epic Swordsage stuff, but you've got a barrel of tricks.

Or see if your DM will let you do an epic progression in Master of Nine. (which it would make much more sense for, than many 10-level prestige classes). Unarmed Swordsage 5/Warblade 6/Master of Nine 5/something 4 would be pretty bad-ass.

[Lerondiel]

Or see if your DM will let you do an epic progression in Master of Nine. (which it would make much more sense for, than many 10-level prestige classes). Unarmed Swordsage 5/Warblade 6/Master of Nine 5/something 4 would be pretty bad-ass.

Yeah, my suggested build isnt simple, you have to take specific schools at specific levels to qualify for everything late on. Can completely understand if it's too crazy.


Epic progression of Master of Nine would be amazing if the OP is confident the game will go level 25+ but heart breaking if it stops just as he finally gets the dual stance.

I'd beg against taking Master of Nine early...8 maneuvers and 2 stances over 5 levels gets better the longer you wait....the only thing more fun than one or two 9th level maneuvers/8th level stances is LOTS. :)
For the same reason I'd suggest taking the Warblade levels before the Swordsage, you want to weight the majority of the maneuvers to the back end or else you end up with a high level character with a lot of low level maneuvers. If the OP's like most and chasing Time Stands Still, the Warblade levels need to pick up the butt saving Diamond Mind prerequisites.

[marphod]

I'd beg against taking Master of Nine early...8 maneuvers and 2 stances over 5 levels gets better the longer you wait....the only thing more fun than one or two 9th level maneuvers/8th level stances is LOTS. :)
For the same reason I'd suggest taking the Warblade levels before the Swordsage, you want to weight the majority of the maneuvers to the back end or else you end up with a high level character with a lot of low level maneuvers. If the OP's like most and chasing Time Stands Still, the Warblade levels need to pick up the butt saving Diamond Mind prerequisites.

Swordsage gets the Diamond Mind school, so Warblade isn't strictly necessary for that. The reason to get Warblade is Iron Heart Surge, which requires another Iron Heart Maneuver. You need to wait until you're going to be Initiator Level 5 to take Warblade to get that (so character level 9). Getting the Diamond Mind Fort or Will save with your third Warblade Maneuver certainly wouldn't suck, though.

You need an Initator Level of 17 to get your 9th level Manuevers. The best you can do without bloodline insanity, is 8 of them. That's if you do levels 3-5 of Master of Nine for levels 18-20 (5), Swordsage 14 for 17 (1, plus swapping 1), and get another PrC level that gives you full initiator progression for the remaining (non swordsage/MoN) level, and using your 18th level feat for Martial Study. And that requires skipping Warblade.

Really, you probably would rather get 2 8th level stances via Martial Stance as your 15th and 18th level feat, getting a third 8th level stance with Swordsage 14, and a fourth with MoN 4.

If you can wait until level 16 to dip warblade, you can still get 4 8th level stances, 5 levels of Master of 9, and 14 of Swordsage (and 5 of the 9th level abilities).

[Dusto]

Hmm lots of good options here it seems. It also seems giving up my +6 wisdom item was not a smart move.. :)

I don't know if our game will get to level 25, but it sounds like it will build to level 20 for sure. Granted it has taken us a long, long time to get to 15 now.

I think my main options right now are leaning towards Warblade20, Warblade10/Eternal Warrior10 or some sort of build towards Mo9.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOR, my DM threw the idea of the NG Frenzied Beserker at me. Does anyone have build ideas or links that I can look at that?

[marphod]

Hmm lots of good options here it seems. It also seems giving up my +6 wisdom item was not a smart move.. :)


Dunno if it was smart or not, but it wasn't Wise

*rimshot*

What? Where's everybody going ... ?



I think my main options right now are leaning towards Warblade20, Warblade10/Eternal Warrior10 or some sort of build towards Mo9.

(Eternal Blade)



OOOOOOOOOOOOOR, my DM threw the idea of the NG Frenzied Beserker at me. Does anyone have build ideas or links that I can look at that?

Frenzied Berserker is pg 34 of Complete Warrior, and is one of the PrCs from CW that Do Not Suck.

Full BAB, Good Fort Save. You gain a Rage-Like ability (Frenzy) with a bonus to strength, penalty to AC, and a haste-like extra attack every full attack. You also take non-lethal damage every round. It takes a Will save to end a Frenzy early. Usable (Class Level +1)/2 times a day. On the other hand, you automatically enter a Frenzy when you take damage (Will Save to avoid auto-frenzy). If you run out of Foes and don't/fail to end your Frenzy, you start attacking Friendles.

You can combine Rage and Frenzy. (Getting both Rage and Frenzy Bonii and penalties). Frenzy-ending status effects wait until any associated Rage also ends (the other way around isn't clear).

You gain Diehard (... i.e. Dragonborn Swap Bait), get to take a 5' step between attacks and corresponding Cleaves (if any), the ability to ignore HP damage (but not massive damage saves) until a frenzy ends (you keep going at -10 HP or lower, as long as you are frenzying), a 50% improvement to Power Attack (becomes 100% at 10th class level), tireless frenzy, and the ability to inspire your allies to frenzy as you level.

It requires Cleave, Destructive Rage, intimidating Rage, and Power Attack (and a +6 BAB and bars lawful characters). (Destructive Rage gives a bonus to breaking objects while Raging or Frenzying -- pure feat tax. Intimidating Rage lets you intimidate one foe per combat as a free action, who, if effected, remains Shaken as long as you are raging. Some small utility, but not ideal. Amusingly, both Destructive and Intimidating can be taken with either Frenzy or Rage abilities, but Intimidating doesn't mention working with Frenzy while Destructive Does. Anyways, this is a long sidebar.)

You can do some interesting things with Frenzy Berserker and ToB classes, but you can't use concentration during a Frenzy so none of the nice Diamond Mind save-counters.

One option would be Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 4/Warblade 2/Frenzied Berserker 10/(Warblade +3/Anything you want for a 1 level dip/or whatever for 4 levels).
1) Power Attack
H) Cleave (might as well get it when it is most useful)
Bar1) Pounce, Rage 1/day
Bar2) Trade Uncanny Dodge for something (You will get Uncanny from Warblade and have more ACF options here.)
3)Intimidating Rage
Bar3) Trade Trapsense for something that actually matters.
Bar4) Rage 2/day
Warb1) Weapon Aptitude 3 Maneuvers/1 Stance
Warb2) Uncanny Dodge +1 Maneuver
6)Destructive Rage
Frenzy1) Frenzy, Diehard
Become Dragonborn, lose Diehard (Take a flaw and use it to get a feat if you want a dragonblood 1st level only feat from becoming Dragonborn)
9) Imp Bull Rush
12) Shock Trooper
15) Extra Rage
Warb3) +1 Maneuver
Warb4) +1 Stance
18) Leap Attack
Warb 5) Feat ?, +1 maneuver