Building a 2-H weapon fighting Eidolon

[13ones]

So I've been tasked with a difficult challenge. One of my players really is looking to build a summoner with a Eidolon that will be able to use a 2-handed weapon to its fullest. He doesn't like the idea of making a pouncing cat like thing, nor a killapede and he's sort of stuck on the idea of 2-Handed Eidolons. Can it be built? Is it at all possible? Can you even make one to rival the sheer damage that a pounce beast can manage?

[Sayt]

Pouncemonster Eidolons are pretty damn high up there, just from the sheer number of attacks they can make, and that pounce lets them use it whenever they want.

That said, 3/4 BAB (Well, Full Bab+3/5 HD progression), plus Huge is pretty damn stronk. Factor in your buffs, a party bard, it can be a thoroughly adequate as a party Fighter.

[Psyren]

"Rivalling a pounce beast" shouldn't be the goal. Rather it should be "taking on CR-appropriate encounters." Just because it's not as brutal as a killapede doesn't mean it's bad, after all.

Are you using regular summoner or unchained?

[13ones]

Regular, cause unchained is kind of meh.

[Psyren]

Regular, cause unchained is kind of meh.

Yeah, it was nerfed, that was the point :smalltongue:

Here's the Summoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?184592-3-P-The-Summoner-s-Handbook-A-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Summoner) though keep in mind that some of the info is out of date.

[Extra Anchovies]

uSummoner is only "meh" next to stock summoner. It didn't do its job right, though, because it's still too powerful (the only thing that was anywhere near fixed was the spell list).

Whatever.

Weapon-using eidolons are a bit tricky, because they're stuck at average BAB and no native to-hit boosts. Be sure to start every combat with a buff or two (like the Haste that you're getting a spell level before you should be) for the eidolon so they can afford to Power Attack. Other than that, just give them Simple Weapon Proficiency (or MWP if you can reliably get level-appropriate weapons of a certain specific type) and Power Attack and you're good.

[grarrrg]

So I've been tasked with a difficult challenge. One of my players really is looking to build a summoner with a Eidolon that will be able to use a 2-handed weapon to its fullest. He doesn't like the idea of making a pouncing cat like thing, nor a killapede and he's sort of stuck on the idea of 2-Handed Eidolons. Can it be built? Is it at all possible? Can you even make one to rival the sheer damage that a pounce beast can manage?

Eidolon's can 2-hand quite well actually. Given the (relative) ease that they can increase their size category, and the fact they can REALLY boost STR.

One of the first questions to ask is "Weapon Proficiency through Evolutions? Or take a Feat?"
It takes 2 Evo-points to get Simple weapons, and 4 Evo-points to get Martial.
If you go the Evo-point route, you have the option of re-assigning them when you level up, but 4 points to Martials is kinda pricey (probably better off with 2-points Simple and a +STR boost for the same cost).
If you go the Feat route then all of your Evo-points are free to do with as you please. The downside is that this "locks" you into using _one_ type of weapon.

Another thing to remember is that just because you are focused on a Manufactured weapon does NOT mean you should neglect Natural attacks.
When using a Manu-Weapon ALL Naturals are treated as Secondary attacks (1/2 STR, -5 to-hit (only -2 with relevant feat)).
Most Secondary Naturals actually do more damage per Evo-point than their Primary counterparts.

[13ones]

So I've talked to my player and his general idea is to make a "animate suit of armor" so he's thinking of taking the martial weapon feat and then use EVOs to crank up his AC, Strenth, Reach and what not and just control the area with big, smashy hits.

I tried pushing the idea of a centaur sort of build, to combine them. That way he'd get the pounce from being a quadruped but also be able to use martial weapons. I'm not trying to kill his idea we just play in a high power, high damage game. The majority of things are home brewed to be....terrifying, simply put. But as my experience with Summoners is limited to a master summoner I've run as an NPC I'm not really sure how to build a centaur.

[marphod]

One of the first questions to ask is "Weapon Proficiency through Evolutions? Or take a Feat?"
It takes 2 Evo-points to get Simple weapons, and 4 Evo-points to get Martial.
If you go the Evo-point route, you have the option of re-assigning them when you level up, but 4 points to Martials is kinda pricey (probably better off with 2-points Simple and a +STR boost for the same cost).
If you go the Feat route then all of your Evo-points are free to do with as you please. The downside is that this "locks" you into using _one_ type of weapon.


Simple Weapon Proficiency gives you all of the Simple Weapons for a single feat.


Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.

Although not as strong as a martial weapon, it gives you choices, and saves you the 2 Evo points. You *might* be able to get MWP as a 2 point Evo then, but that's a DM call.

Is that worthwhile? I don't know.

---

You get Multiattack at 9th, so don't ignore those secondary attacks.

At 9th level, A Large (2 pt+4pts) Tauric Eiodolon with Hooves (1 pt), Gore (2 pts), Sonic (2pts) and Magic Attacks (1pt) with 1 point remaining, is bloody scary. Add Simple Weapon Prof, Power Attack, a 2-handed weapon, and 2 more feats. Apply the Claws to your fore-legs, rather than arms (and hooves to hind-legs).
Go to town.

[13ones]

Is there any benefit to grabbing something like trample later in the game, when the Eidolon is a huge strength beast at that point? From what my player was looking to do is charge in with a trampling huge creature, and then have a reach that covers the entire room and proceed to power attack anything that even tries to move within it's threatened range [taking reach combined with huge gives an utterly terrifying range on attacks.]

[marphod]

Is there any benefit to grabbing something like trample later in the game, when the Eidolon is a huge strength beast at that point? From what my player was looking to do is charge in with a trampling huge creature, and then have a reach that covers the entire room and proceed to power attack anything that even tries to move within it's threatened range [taking reach combined with huge gives an utterly terrifying range on attacks.]

Trample isn't really worth it. You give reflex saves or suffer AoO when using it, and surrender your other attacks. Pounce is a much better ability to get lots of attacks, and you can focus them (which is better anyways, then spreading out damage). It isn't a natural attack, so it doesn't count towards the Max Attacks allowed, but it is underwhelming.

If you have extra attacks, get a Tentacle (one attack) for 1 point, Tail and Tail Slap or Sting (one attack) for 2, or Flight (with Wings) and Wing Buffet or Limbs and Claws (2 attacks) for 3 points.

If you have points to spend, and can't get more attacks or increase your size, Trip, Rend, Energy Attacks, Reach, Push, Pull, Magic attacks (which is more-or-less necessary once you run into DR/Magic), Bleed, Poison, or similar for more damage. Or Grab, Sticky, and Swallow Whole. Or Spell Resistance, DR, Lifesense, Blindsight, Shadow Blend, Resistance, or Immunity.

(Some of those are mutually exclusive. Like don't get both Blindsight and Lifesense unless you run into lots of invisible creatures some of whom are Constructs or Undead. Trip, push and pull don't necessarily work well together.

[grarrrg]

Limbs and Claws (2 attacks) for 3 points.

If he's using a sword than Pincers are strictly better than Claws.

If possible, you should focus on ONE type of Natural Attack, as it's easier to boost them that way.
Example: Improved Natural Attack (Tentacle) applies to ALL Tentacle attacks. So it'd be better to have Tentaclex4 instead of Clawx2, Tentacle, Tail Slap.

[13ones]

So what are we looking at for evolutions? A full level 20 eidolon.

[Frosty]

I have an eidolon (currently summoner at level 12) who will be able to deal very respectable damage compared to others. The only caveat is this is built around the OLD rules when effective size bonuses still stacked, and uses Improved Vital Strike to get a ridiculous amount of damage on a single attack (Slam, in her case). It's not a 2-handed manufactured weapon, but it IS one big strike, and you can flavor it as a built-in sword or something.

Break down of SLAM damage progression:
Base damage: 1d8
Evolution (Huge) --> 2d8
Feat (Improved Natural Attack) --> 3d8
Evolution (Improved Damage: Slam) --> 4d8

During combat, have Summoner cast:
Spell (Enlarge Person) [now Eidolon is Gargantuan] --> 6d8
Spell (Strongjaw. increases effective size of natural attack twice) --> 12d8

Average damage: 54 + 1.5 Str bonus
Standard Deviation: about 8.

Now, if you give the eidolon Improved Vital Strike, the damage goes up to 36d8.

Average damage: 162 + 1.5 Str bonus
Standard Deviation: about 14.

No full-attacks needed. Not bad for a pet. You'll probably add in around 30 damage for the Str bonus plus amulet of mighty fists, etc, so you'll end up with a bit less than 200 damage on a hit.

[marphod]

If he's using a sword than Pincers are strictly better than Claws.

Claws come free with the form, and as you mention, sticking to a single attack type is better than splitting them.

---

20th level Eidolon Weapon&Natural Attacks focus:

(Infrastructure; no skills, minimal magic items, and 4 open feats)
Pouncing ubercharger

I can't find the stats on clawblades; they may make this even more insane if allowed.


Huge Tauric Eidolon
Speed 40ft
HD 15 HP 178
AC +25 (21 split between NA/Armor, at least +7 is natural armor; +4 Dex)
ST Fort +15, Refl +9, Will +9
+4 to Will Saves against Enchantments
Str 40 (including +2 from increases) Dex 18 Con 22 (including +1 from increases) Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +15
60 skill points to spend as you wish
Improved Evasion
Darkvision 60
Link
Share Spells
Multiattack

Reach: 10' (Given that it is a biped/quad hybrid, this may be a misprint and should be 15')
Standard: +29 (+15 BAB -2 Size +15 Str +1 Weapon) Huge Longspear 3d6+24 (+PA/Magical effects, 20' reach,) or +33 (+15 BAB -2 Size +15 Str +5 AoMF) Bite 2d6+20+1d6 Acid +PA/Magical Effects

Full Attack +29/+24/+19 Huge Longspear 3d6+23 (+PA/additional magic) 20' reach, +31 Bite 2d6+12+1d6 Acid (+etc.) 10' reach, 4x +31 Claws 2d6 + 12 + 1d6 Acid (+etc.) with Pull, Rend, and 10' reach, and 2x +31 Hooves 1d8 +12 +1d6 Acid (etc.)

Pounce, Rend with Claws for 2d6+28+1d6 Acid.
First Power Attack a round ignores penalty.
Power attack: -4 to hit for +12 damage with longspear, +8 damage with Bite (if used in standard attack), +4 with secondary natural attacks.


Evolutions (26 points worth):
Huge (+2 for Medium, +4 for Large, +6 for Huge = 12 pts)
Limbs (Legs, with Claws) (Free)
Limbs (Legs, with Hooves) (1pt for hooves)
Limbs (Arms) (Free)
Weapon Training (Simple Weapons, 2pt)
Bite (1pt)
Limbs (Arms, with claws 3 pts)
Pounce (1pt)
Rend (2pt)
Energy Attack (Acid, 2pts)
Blindsight (4pts)
Pull (claws, 1pt)


Feats:
Power Attack
Imp Natural Attack (Claws)
Furious Focus
Combat Reflexes
(whatever other 4 feats fit your fancy)

Magic items:
The above assumes a +1 Longspear and a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists or equivalent.
This build wants magic to give it AC, Saving Throws, Flight, teleportation, increased speed, increased strength, increased con, Enlarged, etc. etc. etc.)

[Frosty]

It's not a misprint. A Large tauric creature (such as a centaur) has the reach of a biped creature one size category smaller than itself.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It may not rival a pouncer, but it will still be far better than any martial class in PF can hope for. The size and strength of an eidolon grows incredibly fast after the first few levels. Remember, you can cast Enlarge Person on it thanks to Share Spells, and that stacks w/ the size increasing evolutions.

Since he won't have pounce but will have a very strong attack, the focus should be on sheer reach and getting AoOs. I'm not sure if the Reach evolution would benefit a 2H weapon eidolon, since the reach is limited to one limb. If it's not but the DM will let you take it twice so you can extend each limb and use it w/ a 2H weapon, that would still be a worthy investment. Grab a reach weapon w/ Martial Weapon Proficiency feat (if starting above level 1, maybe even just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and Combat Reflexes. A Biped starts at Dex 12, but that climbs over the levels. Since you're not getting the typical evolutions for more limbs or things that boost natural attacks / add effects to them, you should easily be able to afford Dex +2 evolution, too (and str +2, until you hit Large size).

I'm not well-versed in PF anymore, so I'm not sure what options there are to increase the list of triggers for an AoO, but I'm sure there's some options out there.

[marphod]

Since he won't have pounce but will have a very strong attack, the focus should be on sheer reach and getting AoOs.

Why Not?
Get Pounce (1 point, Advanced Players Guide).

I see that technically, you need to go with a quadraped, rather than a tauric (unless there is tect in Cohorts and Companions that allows that), which would change the build a little. Not much, though.



I'm not sure if the Reach evolution would benefit a 2H weapon eidolon, since the reach is limited to one limb.

One attack form, not one limb. Besides, it doesn't need to be with the weapon attacks (In fact, that seems to be less useful)


Grab a reach weapon w/ Martial Weapon Proficiency feat

Longspear. Reach and a simple weapon. The extra damage from a martial or exotic weapon is going to be insignificant to your other bonuses.


A Biped starts at Dex 12, but that climbs over the levels. Since you're not getting the typical evolutions for more limbs or things that boost natural attacks / add effects to them, you should easily be able to afford Dex +2 evolution, too (and str +2, until you hit Large size).

You can change your Eidolon and evolutions each time you level, so starting with biped may not be a bad idea, but it will be a horrible idea to end up as one. Get Pounce.

----

So, accounting for the errors in my previous build, but adding in magic items and spells (around 12% of WBL)

Gargantuan Quadraped Eidolon
(size modifier -4)
Speed 40ft
HD 15 HP 193
AC 32 (21 Nat Armr; +5 Bracers, +2 Deflection +4 Dex -4 size)
ST Fort +20, Refl +16, Will +8
+4 to Will Saves against Enchantments
Str 44 (including +2 from increases) Dex 18 Con 26 (including +1 from increases) Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +15
60 skill points to spend as you wish
Improved Evasion
Darkvision 60
Link
Share Spells
Multiattack

Standard: +29 (+15 BAB -4 Size +17 Str +1 Weapon) Gargantuan Longspear 4d6+26 (17 x 1.5 + 1) 30' reach or +29 (+15 BAB -4 Size +17 Str +1 AoMF) Bite 3d6+18 +1d6 Elect + 1d6 Acid +1d6 cold (15' reach) or +29 Tentacle 4d6 + 18 +1d6 Bleed +1d6 Elect + 1d6 Acid +1d6 cold (20' reach)

Full Attack +29/+24/+19 Gargantuan Longspear 4d6+26 30' reach, and +29 Bite 3d6+9 +1d6 Elect + 1d6 Acid +1d6 cold (15' reach) and 6x +29 Tentacle 4d6 + 9 +1d6 Bleed +1d6 Elect + 1d6 Acid +1d6 cold (20' reach)

First Power Attack a round ignores penalty.
Power attack: -4 to hit for +12 damage with longspear, +8 damage with Bite (if used in standard attack), +4 with secondary natural attacks.

On PA pounce, if all hit 12d6+78+36 (Longspear) + 3d6 + 13 + 1d6 Acid + 1d6 Cold + 1d6 Elect (Bite) + 24d6 + 78 + 6d6 Bleed + 6d6 Acid + 6d6 Cold + 6d6 Elect (Tentacles)

Or 156 from the longspear attacks, 34 from the bite, and 216 + 21 Bleed from Tentacles.
(Total of 416 + 21 bleed)

Evolutions (26 points):
Huge (+4 for Large, +6 for Huge = 10 pts)
Limbs (Legs) x2 (Free)
Bite (free)
Tentacle x6 (6pts)
Energy Attack (Acid, 2pts)
Blindsight (4pts)
Limbs (Arms, 2pts)
Improve Damage, Bleed, Reach (tentacles, 3pt)
Pounce (1pt)

Feats:
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Power Attack
Imp Natural Attack (Tentacles)
Furious Focus
Combat Reflexes
(whatever other 3 feats fit your fancy)

Magic items: (93kgp; total WBL is 880k gp)
+1 Longspear (2kgp)
+1 Shocking, Acidic, Cold Amulet of Mighty Fists. (32kgp)
Bracers of Armor +5 (25k gp)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (10k gp)
+3 Resistance item (9k gp)
+2 deflection item (9k gp)
Horseshoes of the Zephyr

Buff Spell:
Enlarge Person (via Share Spell)

(Also nice, but not required:
Unfetter
Evolution Surge (or Evolution Surge, Greater) for Wingless Flight (4pts) (and another evolution, costing up to 2 points for greater) )

[grarrrg]

Why Not?
Get Pounce (1 point, Advanced Players Guide).

I see that technically, you need to go with a quadraped, rather than a tauric (unless there is tect in Cohorts and Companions that allows that), which would change the build a little. Not much, though.

Technically we SHOULD go with Biped because the OP asked:

Can you even make one to rival the sheer damage that a pounce beast can manage?
Building a pounce beast to out pounce beast the pounce beast seems kind of self defeating.


One attack form, not one limb. Besides, it doesn't need to be with the weapon attacks (In fact, that seems to be less useful)

Actually, the Reach Evolution is one attack (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qjz) full stop.
You can have all the Tentacles you want, but only _1_ is getting Reach. And you can only take Reach _once_, as it lacks the "can be taken multiple times" wording.


Evolutions (26 points):...
Improve Damage, Bleed, Reach (tentacles, 3pt)
...
Feats:
...
Imp Natural Attack (Tentacles)

I don't think you can stack those (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u) anymore.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think you you can stack those (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u) anymore.

....They banned Bashing spiked shields?! Those bastards! :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

....They banned Bashing spiked shields?! Those bastards! :smallfrown:

What are you talking about? Bashing still works.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What are you talking about? Bashing still works.


As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).


These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons).


A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

So unless Shield spikes get a pass since spiked light and heavy shields get their own entries on the weapons table and thus override the part about it being an effective size increase, it sounds like the FAQ banned Bashing spiked shields.

[Frosty]

....They banned Bashing spiked shields?! Those bastards! :smallfrown:
Yep. I just ignore that ruling. This ruling also makes vital strike worthless as a feat.

[grarrrg]

Yep. I just ignore that ruling. This ruling also makes vital strike worthless as a feat.

Now now. To be fair Vital Strike was already borderline worthless as a feat. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

So unless Shield spikes get a pass since spiked light and heavy shields get their own entries on the weapons table and thus override the part about it being an effective size increase, it sounds like the FAQ banned Bashing spiked shields.

I missed the "spiked" in your post, but even then it's not a "ban" - it simply means they don't stack. You can still combine them to get a 2x-size piercing shield bash instead of a 3x.

[Frosty]

Now now. To be fair Vital Strike was already borderline worthless as a feat. :smallwink:
It was decent with certain druid and Eidolon builds at least.