Non-magic Ability Damage build

[Zephyrz]

I'm new to posting on here and was wondering if someone could help me with building a character.

I was hoping to make it about dealing ability damage or drain to its opponent/s but without it being a caster. I was hoping for some ideas on how to make a functional character since I can't seem to find anything that isn't insanely weak compared to just hitting things with a bigger stick. Homebrew ideas are fine as long as you include a good reasoning behind how it works and why.

The thoughts that I was working with was based off grappling and using a submission style base where you targeted limbs and dealt more damage the longer they were in it. One of my big problems is coming up with the balance of dealing the ability damage versus just dealing normal damage to kill. Any ideas to increase on this or just completely different ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Crake]

If you want to deal ability damage non-magically, poisons are going to be your best bet. There are quite a few feats out there that will increase poison DC that you use, and if you can identify your enemy's lowest ability and target that, you're probably going to incapacitate them faster than just pure damage will (note that if any ability score drops to 0, the target is rendered helpless, and can be finished off at your leisure with a coup de grace, except con, at 0 con things just outright die). You may also want to invest in poisoncrafting to cheapen the costs of poisons and make sure that you have a wide variety readily available to target different ability scores.

Edit: It is worth noting that there are many creature types that are just outright immune to ability damage, and even more that are immune to poison, so you'll have to accept that you will be useless against these opponents if you wish to continue forward with this idea.

[AmberVael]

There are some Tome of Battle maneuvers which can deal ability damage, perhaps most notably Mountain Tombstone Strike which deals 2d6 constitution damage, no save. Shadow Hand has a few, Diamond Mind can deal wisdom damage. You might look into that as an option, especially since Tome of Battle can offer other worthwhile abilities on the side.

It has a large advantage over poison since there are so many ways to be immune to poison.

[gorfnab]

Rogues can deal some ability damage. The 10th level Rogue ability option of Crippling Strike deals Strength damage. The feat Maiming Strike (EoE) trades sneak attack damage for Charisma damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11+ or Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5+ can get Mind Cripple, which deals 2 Int damage per hit when you sneak attack. With TWF you can outright disable many opponents in a single full attack.

I would recommend Spellthief 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9, using Practiced Manifester to help qualify. Pick mostly buffs and utility powers with a few ranged attack powers (Crystal Shard, Energy Ray). Put a wand chamber on each of your weapons, and a Wand of Wraithstrike in one, which your Spellthief level enables you to use. If you don't want to be evil aligned see if you can remove the death attack and poison use class features from Psychic Assassin to get rid of the evil alignment and special prerequisites, or just rename it Psychic Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) and adapt its prerequisites to match that one.

[marphod]

Non-magical, not spell based, or not spell/psionic based?

Or, more specifically:
Is Incarnum allowed?
Are Vestiges allowed?
Is Truenaming allowed?
Are Psionic Powers allowed?
Are magic items allowed?
Is Book of Vile Darkness or Exalted Deeds allowed?

[Zephyrz]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I was mostly looking for things that had to be done in melee range/maneuvers as well as poisons. Any ideas beyond that I have to look into more when I have time and would love to have examples of them. Also any build that is leveled I would like to see why the build is those classes together and how it works.

[ericgrau]

Probably a ranged build for full attacks at distance so that you have some kind of advantage over a charger. Or pounce + TWF, but even then anything that can get that close might kill with damage anyway.

Poison could work mid levels, and since it's a purchased expendable item it makes it that much easier to switch to other tactics when needed. Such as undead bane and construct bane arrows. There's no drawback to spending your ammo money 2/3 on one and 1/3 on the other vs 100% on one.

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues can deal some ability damage. The 10th level Rogue ability option of Crippling Strike deals Strength damage.
Add the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) and the Rogue deals STR damage with Crippling Strike even if the target is normally immune (Constructs, Undead).

[emeraldstreak]

I'd suggest a ravage like Golden Touch of Ice over poisons if your campaign mainly focuses on fighting evil. It bypasses poison immunity. Update it for 3.5 by basing its DC on Con.

[torrasque666]

I'd suggest a ravage like Golden Touch of Ice over poisons if your campaign mainly focuses on fighting evil. It bypasses poison immunity. Update it for 3.5 by basing its DC on Con.
Book of Exalted Deeds already is 3.5. In fact, I believe its the 2nd book published for 3.5.

[LudicSavant]

I was mostly looking for things that had to be done in melee range/maneuvers as well as poisons.

My old drow lockdown warrior used the following amongst her various tricks to produce poisons:

Get a Drow House Insignia of Psionic Minor Creation (they're cheap, and explicitly rules-legal with the errata), grab a decent Craft: Poison check, mass produce Black Lotus Extract (or other poisons), stick it into things like triple weapon capsule retainers. Hit things with your martial skill and watch the ability damage pile up.

[Crake]

Add the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) and the Rogue deals STR damage with Crippling Strike even if the target is normally immune (Constructs, Undead).

That feat clearly bypasses sneak attack immunity, not ability damage immunity, since normally you need to sneak attack a target to crippling strike them. If a target is still immune to ability damage (as constructs and undead are), they don't take the str damage, since they can't.

That feat is to allow you to deal str damage to targets such as those with heavy fortification, or undiscernable anatomies etc.

[emeraldstreak]

Book of Exalted Deeds already is 3.5. In fact, I believe its the 2nd book published for 3.5.

No, it isn't.

While its release date may be shortly after 3.5's Core, the draft of the book was pre-3.5 with some 3.5 concepts in it, but not all. In 3.5, creature poisons DCs are tied to an attribute (usually Con).

[torrasque666]

No, it isn't.

While its release date may be shortly after 3.5's Core, the draft of the book was pre-3.5 with some 3.5 concepts in it, but not all. In 3.5, creature poisons DCs are tied to an attribute (usually Con).
If that was the case for the Golden Ice feat, then it would need to list a DC for Pistis Sophia, and both Leskylor entries due to all three having the feat. But since they don't, we must look at the feat for a DC, which says to look at the specific subsection in the earlier chapter 3. But the only things listed there are the damage (1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex), the price (1,200 GP), the type (Contact), and the DC (14). So since the examples that do have the feat don't say anything about it having a different DC for them, then it can only have the DC listed on the table. And given that every example of a creature with any kind of poison, even in 3.0, listed a DC it only makes sense that they'd have listed one for Golden Ice for these creatures.

[Twurps]

Just for completeness sake:
The weakening touch feat (CW) lets you expand a stunning fist attack to deal a -6 strength penalty.

[Andezzar]

No, it isn't.

While its release date may be shortly after 3.5's Core, the draft of the book was pre-3.5 with some 3.5 concepts in it, but not all. In 3.5, creature poisons DCs are tied to an attribute (usually Con).You are throwing BoVD and BoED together. BoVD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Vile_Darkness) (Oct. 2002) was published before the release of 3.5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Drag ons_v3.5) (Jul. 2003) but may have some rules with 3.5 in mind, BoED (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exalted_Deeds) (Oct. 2003) was published after 3.5 and should not have any 3.0 concepts in it. The Miniatures Handbook was released the same month.


Just for completeness sake:
The weakening touch feat (CW) lets you expand a stunning fist attack to deal a -6 strength penalty.To bad ability penalties aren't ability damage. penalties do not stack and (often) cannot reduce an ability score to 0.

[emeraldstreak]

You are throwing BoVD and BoED together. BoVD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Vile_Darkness) (Oct. 2002) was published before the release of 3.5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Drag ons_v3.5) (Jul. 2003) but may have some rules with 3.5 in mind, BoED (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exalted_Deeds) (Oct. 2003) was published after 3.5 and should not have any 3.0 concepts in it. The Miniatures Handbook was released the same month.


BoVD is as 3.0 as it gets. BoED was largely written pre-3.5 and is only semi-compatible with it. There are 3.0-style writeups all over it.

The Touch of Golden Ice feat requires Con and is creature-produced. It stands to reason that in 3.5 it would have a Con-dependent DC.

At any rate, even the most powerful evil creatures can fail its DC 5% of the time, which can quickly add up with multiple attacks. Many of these creatures will be left at 0 Dex by a single failure.

[Andezzar]

BoVD is as 3.0 as it gets. BoED was largely written pre-3.5 and is only semi-compatible with it. There are 3.0-style writeups all over it.Style and layout has little to do with compatibility.


The Touch of Golden Ice feat requires Con and is creature-produced. It stands to reason that in 3.5 it would have a Con-dependent DC.Which creature produces Golden Ice?

[Telonius]

Maybe a bit obvious, but the Wounding weapon enhancement is available in Core, and deals 1 Con damage with each hit (for a +2 price modifier). That can get very nasty, very quickly, if you can connect with multiple attacks in a round. The big limitation is that things immune to critical hits are immune to it.

[torrasque666]

Style and layout has little to do with compatibility.

Which creature produces Golden Ice?
There are three creatures with the Touch of Golden Ice feat: Pistis Sophia, the Leskylor, and the Three-Headed Leskylor. None of them list any sort of DC for using it. Of the 5 ravages listed in the BoED only 2 make any mention of a creature being used in its production: Purified Coutl Venom and Unicorn Blood. Celestial Lightsblood maybe.

[Andezzar]

There are three creatures with the Touch of Golden Ice feat: Pistis Sophia, the Leskylor, and the Three-Headed Leskylor. None of them list any sort of DC for using it. Of the 5 ravages listed in the BoED only 2 make any mention of a creature being used in its production: Purified Coutl Venom and Unicorn Blood. Celestial Lightsblood maybe.
What makes you think that the DCs for ravages must be CON based? Especially when the Ravage is granted by a feat? The manufactured poisons from Complete Adventurer (p.97 f.) all have fixed DCs.
@Purified Couatl Venom: The purification process could eliminate any benefit/drawback you might get from using Couatls with higher or lower CON.
@Unicorn Blood: I don't see how the blood of a creature should be significantly better or worse based on the creature's CON.

[torrasque666]

What makes you think that the DCs for ravages must be CON based? Especially when the Ravage is granted by a feat? The manufactured poisons from Complete Adventurer (p.97 f.) all have fixed DCs.
@Purified Couatl Venom: The purification process could eliminate any benefit/drawback you might get from using Couatls with higher or lower CON.
@Unicorn Blood: I don't see how the blood of a creature should be significantly better or worse based on the creature's CON.
Dude, I'm on your side.

[Andezzar]

Nevermind then.

[Flickerdart]

Forget poisons - they're expensive (unless you're cheesing out Minor Creation or abusing self-crafting) and you have to apply them to your weapon one at a time, which wastes actions. Your best bet is going to be loading up on flat ability damage sources (hitting Int with Mind Cripple is very good because it one-shots animal intelligence foes, and Wounding is very cheap to get), and then getting tons of attacks with them (thri-kreen, diopsid, and obah-blessed are easy ways of getting extra hands).

[Andezzar]

A +3 weapon on each hand gets expensive as well.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, but if budget is tight you can skip Wounding and just have Mind Cripple. Alternatively, pick up abilities like Whirling Frenzy to maximize number of attacks with a single blade.

[Andezzar]

Where can I find mind cripple?

[Flickerdart]

Where can I find mind cripple?
10th level psychic rogue or 5th level psychic assassin gets it. You could get both Crippling Strike and Mind Cripple on the same guy by going Rogue 10/Psion 1* (with Practiced Manifester)/Psychic Assassin 5.

*Psion is a good option because they get very solid powers and a bonus psionic at level 1, but if you don't care about manifesting at all then Psychic Rogue (for SA), Psychic Warrior (for a bonus fighter feat) or Ardent (for mantle abilities, sort of like cleric domains) are all good as well.

[Andezzar]

Where can I find those classes (Psychic Rogue/Assassin)?

[Curmudgeon]

That feat clearly bypasses sneak attack immunity, not ability damage immunity, since normally you need to sneak attack a target to crippling strike them. If a target is still immune to ability damage (as constructs and undead are), they don't take the str damage, since they can't.

That feat is to allow you to deal str damage to targets such as those with heavy fortification, or undiscernable anatomies etc.
Savvy Rogue certainly makes Crippling Strike work against a target only immune to sneak attack. However, as stated, as long as the target is immune to sneak attack damage, it takes the STR damage.
Crippling Strike: You can deal Strength damage even to a target that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks. As long as the target is immune to sneak attack damage, Savvy Rogue says they do take the Crippling Strike STR damage. The creature types which are immune to ability damage are also immune to sneak attack damage.

[torrasque666]

Savvy Rogue certainly makes Crippling Strike work against a target only immune to sneak attack. However, as stated, as long as the target is immune to sneak attack damage, it takes the STR damage. As long as the target is immune to sneak attack damage, Savvy Rogue says they do take the Crippling Strike STR damage. The creature types which are immune to ability damage are also immune to sneak attack damage.
Yes, but you can be immune to Sneak Attack without being immune to Ability Damage. Plants for example, would be subjected to it as they are not subject to Critical Hits (and thus Sneak Attack) but not immune to Ability Damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, but you can be immune to Sneak Attack without being immune to Ability Damage. Plants for example, would be subjected to it as they are not subject to Critical Hits (and thus Sneak Attack) but not immune to Ability Damage.
Yes, so Plant creatures have the enabling requirement to take the STR damage also.

[Flickerdart]

Where can I find those classes (Psychic Rogue/Assassin)?

They were linked early upthread:


A Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11+ or Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5+ can get Mind Cripple, which deals 2 Int damage per hit when you sneak attack. With TWF you can outright disable many opponents in a single full attack.

[torrasque666]

Yes, so Plant creatures have the enabling requirement to take the STR damage also.
Yes, but since Savvy Rogue doesn't include any text specifically stating that it overcomes an immunity to Ability Damage, it can't deal Ability Damage to those normally immune. And Crippling Strike still works on non-immune creatures, as it doesn't contain any text overriding that either, just that you can deal strength damage even if the target is immune to Sneak Attack. "Can" does not mean "must" or "will", just the possibility.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, but since Savvy Rogue doesn't include any text specifically stating that it overcomes an immunity to Ability Damage, ...
It does indeed. It says that you can deal STR damage. It doesn't say that you can deal STR damage, except sometimes you can't.

[torrasque666]

It does indeed. It says that you can deal STR damage. It doesn't say that you can deal STR damage, except sometimes you can't.
It doesn't have to, because that's the general rule.

[emeraldstreak]

Which creature produces Golden Ice?

Your character.


What makes you think that the DC for Golden Ice must be CON based? Especially when the Ravage is granted by a feat?

The feat's requirement.

[Curmudgeon]

It doesn't have to, because that's the general rule.
The general rule is that some creatures are immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attack. They're still immune to that extra damage. And Crippling Strike only applies when you deal sneak attack damage. Except Savvy Rogue says Crippling Strike STR damage applies anyway. The feat's benefit isn't to make them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attack damage; it's to make them take the STR damage if they're immune to sneak attack. So, if their critical hit immunity is still in place but ignored, why should immunity to ability damage matter? The feat has an enabling requirement (immunity to sneak attack damage), not an override to that specific immunity.

[torrasque666]

The general rule is that some creatures are immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attack. They're still immune to that extra damage. And Crippling Strike only applies when you deal sneak attack damage. Except Savvy Rogue says Crippling Strike STR damage applies anyway. The feat's benefit isn't to make them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attack damage; it's to make them take the STR damage if they're immune to sneak attack. So, if their critical hit immunity is still in place but ignored, why should immunity to ability damage matter? The feat has an enabling requirement (immunity to sneak attack damage), not an override to that specific immunity.
And it contains no specific overriding language to ignore immunity to Ability Damage. So Crippling Strike functions on say, an Undead, but they can't take Ability Damage to a physical score unless something specifically calls out overriding it.

[Andezzar]

Your character.Not necessarily. It is an [Exalted] Feat. Those are granted by some higher power. It could just as well be that the higher power produces the substance on your character.

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures.

The feat does not even say that the substance is produced on the character, just that the evil creature touching the character is ravaged.


The feat's requirement.Requiring CON 13 is no indication that the DC should be CON based. Improved Feint for example requires INT 13. That does not mean the DC (bluff check) is INT based.

[Curmudgeon]

And it contains no specific overriding language to ignore immunity to Ability Damage.
It also has no specific language to ignore immunity to critical hits, just to apply the STR damage anyway. What's your point?

[torrasque666]

It also has no specific language to ignore immunity to critical hits, just to apply the STR damage anyway. What's your point?
It does have language to ignore the Immunity to Critical hits for that effect only. Not for the Sneak Attack Damage, just the Strength Damage rider effect. If a target meets the requirements to be sneak attacked (flanked, flat footed, denied dex bonus etc) then they take the strength damage even if they don't take Sneak Attack damage. It says you can deal Strength Damage to a target immune to extra damage from Sneak Attack but has no language saying that it can be applied to something immune to Strength Damage as you contend.


I think you're honestly misreading the feat so that you can be right. The feat modifies the Crippling Strike ability of a 10th level (or higher) rogue, which initially states thus:

Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.
Pretty straight forward. Take Sneak Attack Damage, take strength damage.

Savvy Rogue adds the additional benefit:

Crippling Strike: You can deal Strength damage even to a target that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks.
Not that is has to be immune to SA, just that it ignores that specific immunity, for that specific effect. You still can't apply it to something under the effect of say, Sheltered Vitality.

[Curmudgeon]

Not that is has to be immune to SA, just that it ignores that specific immunity, for that specific effect.
Savvy Rogue doesn't express that limitation. It doesn't override immunity to sneak attack. If it did override sneak attack immunity that would make the STR damage apply in the context of a sneak attack, and everything would be clear and constrained. However, because it doesn't override sneak attack immunity, stipulating immunity to sneak attack then becomes the single requirement for the STR damage to apply.

[torrasque666]

Savvy Rogue doesn't express that limitation. It doesn't override immunity to sneak attack. If it did override sneak attack immunity that would make the STR damage apply in the context of a sneak attack, and everything would be clear and constrained. However, because it doesn't override sneak attack immunity, stipulating immunity to sneak attack then becomes the single requirement for the STR damage to apply.
Are... are you actually reading what you're writing?

A rogue who has Savvy Rogue has a Crippling Strike entry that would look like this:
Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability. You can deal Strength damage even to a target that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks.

Savvy Rogue adds additional benefits​ to Rogue Abilities, not replacing them.

[Curmudgeon]

Savvy Rogue adds additional benefits​ to Rogue Abilities, not replacing them.
That doesn't make sense. It cannot be an additional benefit to an ability that's dependent on sneak attack ("A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision ...").

[torrasque666]

That doesn't make sense. It cannot be an additional benefit to an ability that's dependent on sneak attack ("A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision ...").
Well, then its a dysfunction because Savvy Rogue reads as such:

Based on the rogue special abilities you have (PH 50), you gain one or more additional special benefits as described below. You gain the benefits for all the special abilities you have, even those you gain after selecting this feat. Its additive, not a replacement. It means that if a rogue with the feat satisfies all other requirements to deliver a sneak attack, denied Dex or flanked, you can apply Crippling Strike even though you don't apply the extra damage. As I have demonstrated earlier, things can easily be immune to Sneak Attack without being immune to Ability Damage. Thus, in order to apply Ability Damage you have to satisfy that​ check, namely "Is the target immune to Ability Damge yes/no?"

[Zephyrz]

If anyone is willing to make a full build layout that I could look over that would be amazing. I would like to stay away from twf simply because it tends to deal a lot of damage normally. Any books are allowed but anything outside of phb would need to be explained on how it works.

[Flickerdart]

If anyone is willing to make a full build layout that I could look over that would be amazing. I would like to stay away from twf simply because it tends to deal a lot of damage normally. Any books are allowed but anything outside of phb would need to be explained on how it works.
TWF only does a lot of damage when you have a source of bonus damage. As a rogue you might have that in Sneak Attack (unless you traded out Sneak Attack for an alternate class feature such as fighter bonus feats) but you can use Maiming Strike to convert SA dice into Charisma damage.

[emeraldstreak]

Requiring CON 13 is no indication that the DC should be CON based. Improved Feint for example requires INT 13. That does not mean the DC (bluff check) is INT based.

Yet it doesn't require Wis or Cha, which are often divinely associated. The writers chose Con, which coincidentally is keyed to all creature-produced poisons in 3.5. Get it? The writers could have chosen any other of the six attributes, but they chose Con. Not writing it down as a base DC + Con modifier is a 3.0 relic, of which BoED is full due to being largely written pre-3.5.

[marphod]

Savvy Rogue doesn't express that limitation. It doesn't override immunity to sneak attack. If it did override sneak attack immunity that would make the STR damage apply in the context of a sneak attack, and everything would be clear and constrained. However, because it doesn't override sneak attack immunity, stipulating immunity to sneak attack then becomes the single requirement for the STR damage to apply.

Immunity Bypass abilities are not transitive.

There is no text anywhere in DnD to imply that they are. You are taking selective reading to Troll-esque levels.

You are reading the lack of an explicit exception to transitivity as reinforcement of transitivity. That's a logical fallacy (the often mis-used logical fallacy of Begging the question). You need to present a text-supported example of explicitly allowing an immunity bypass of one Special Quality to allow bypassing of another, unrelated Special Quality for your argument to hold water.


A Real World Example:
In my area:

Parking in a handicapped access space without authorization (a plate or placard) will get you a ticket (if you get caught).
Parking on a city street in a Residential-Only space without a Resident Sticker or Guest Pass will get you a ticket (if you get caught)

Parking in a Handicapped Space with a Plate or Placard, which is also in a Resident-Only space, means you won't get a ticket for parking in the Handicapped Space. You STILL will get a ticket for not having a Resident Sticker or Guest Pass.
Similarly, having the Resident Sticker or the Guess Pass will avoid getting that ticket, but you're still going to get one for illegally parking in the Handicapped-Access space.

[marphod]

[rules example] is a 3.0 relic, of which BoED is full due to being largely written pre-3.5.

Another point of evidence is that BoED uses the pre-3.5 Credits Page Language, rather than the 3.5 language.

(Which is the presence of "This product uses updated material from the v.3.5 revision" on the credits page between the "Based on the Original Dungeonm & Dragon (C) rules ..." paragraph and the OGL content paragraph.)

This isn't 100% accurate, but it is among contributing evidence to the 3.25-ish nature of BoED. I recall a handful of other 3.0-isms in the book, but I don't see them with a quick scan.

[Crake]

The general rule is that some creatures are immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attack. They're still immune to that extra damage. And Crippling Strike only applies when you deal sneak attack damage. Except Savvy Rogue says Crippling Strike STR damage applies anyway. The feat's benefit isn't to make them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attack damage; it's to make them take the STR damage if they're immune to sneak attack. So, if their critical hit immunity is still in place but ignored, why should immunity to ability damage matter? The feat has an enabling requirement (immunity to sneak attack damage), not an override to that specific immunity.

Ok, so let's follow the chain of events as they occur.

I attack a creature in a circumstance that allows me a sneak attack (flanking or flat footed) -> Is the creature able to be sneak attacked? No -> Savvy Rogue still allows me to use crippling strike. -> I deal strength damage -> Creature Is immune to ability damage, and thus takes no damage.

Which bit do you disagree on Curmudgeon?

[emeraldstreak]

I recall a handful of other 3.0-isms in the book, but I don't see them with a quick scan.

As far as I recall, there were 3.0-isms in the spell section.

[daremetoidareyo]

These builds are on shaky ground. It relies on text that adds bonus to "damage rolls" but the text was designed for the damage increase to only apply to weapon damage rolls. These builds each need clearance by a DM first. Poison damage may not be augmentable RAI even by insight and luck bonii.

Lurk 7/human paragon 3 (UA)/Diamond dragon 1/Lurk 9, must be evil and have lolth as a patron deity

32 point buy: STR: 8 DEX: 8 CON: 18 INT: 18 WIS: 8 CHA: 8


Feats
1: verminfriend (BOVD), The Fortitude DC to resist this poison is 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Con modifier. The initial and secondary damage ratings are the same (1d4 points of Strength damage)
3: You can spit your venom up to 30 feet as ranged touch attack.
6: ranged lurk augment (ComPsi)
9: Deadly spittle (SK), feat
12: feat
15: feat
18: feat

Powers: Text"you gain a +2 insight bonus on your damage rolls. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the insight bonus gained on your attack rolls increases by 1." And the duration is in MINUTES
Animal affinity: +4 con

Text: "The lurk's attack deals an extra 2 points of damage. For every power point spent, the damage increases by 1"

Diamond dragon is there to boost con, so is human paragon (plus the feat is nice). You spit strength damage every turn. The fort save is pinned to 1/2 your character level + your con bonus. So get con boosting items out the wazoo.

Against moops, you have deadly spittle, which gives you a 15' cone of strength damage.

The weird thing is, the strongest enemies have the highest fort saves, so you are far better as a mage or rogue slayer. In order to handle those fort saves, you should hang out with a druid:

Aspect of Nature Druid 9/contemplative 1/hexer 10 (you need to research lightning bolt to get it as a divine spell)
spells: 1: breath of the jungle
2: Bears endurance
3: venomfire, snake bite
5: bleed
8: red tide

feats:
6: spit venom

This is so simple: take the poison aspect of nature, which gives you con damage poison. Venomfire the heck out of it and while you're at it, venomfire your lurk buddy for that sweet xd6 acid damage that you can spit in a cone. Get lightning bolt for entry into hexer, where you can debuff those fort saves so your con based poison can further debuff them.





STR: 10 DEX: 13 CON: 15 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHA: 7
Azurin, necropolitan
feats
soulmelds
essentia
Ability damage




1


Incarnate
shape soul meld (gloves of poison soul), expanded soul meld capacity
gloves (0), Incarnate avatar (2)
1+1
wis 1+4




2


Incarnate


gloves (1), Incarnate avatar (2), luckydice (0)
2+1
wis 2+4+1




3


Incarnate
undead meldshaping
gloves (1), Incarnate avatar (3), lucky dice (0)
3+1
wis 2+6+1




4


Incarnate


gloves (2) hands, Incarnate avatar (3), lucky dice (0), Necrocarnum shroud (0)
4+1
wis 3+6+1
str 3 +6+1




5


Incarnate


gloves (2), Incarnate avatar (3), lucky dice (0), BWG (1)
5+1
wis 3+6+1luck+1bwg
str 3 +6+1luck+1bwg




6


Incarnate
touch of taint
gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0),
6+1
wis 4+8+1luck
str 4 +8+1luck
depravity 1
corruption 1




7


Incarnate


gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (1)
7+1
wis 4+8+1luck +1bwg
str 4 +8+1luck +1bwg
depravity 1
corruption 1




8


Incarnate


gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (3)
8+1
wis 4+8+1luck +2bwg
str 4 +8+1luck +2bwg
depravity 1
corruption 1




9


Incarnate
surge of malevolence
gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (3), planar chasuble (brow)
9+1
wis 4+8+1luck +3bwg
str 4 +8+1luck +3bwg
depravity 1
corruption 1




10


Incarnate


gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (3), planar chasuble (brow),
10+1
wis 4+8+1luck +3bwg
str 4 +8+1luck +3bwg
depravity 1
corruption 1




11


Incarnate


gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (3), planar chasuble (brow),
11+1
wis 4+8+1luck +3bwg
str 4 +8+1luck +3bwg
depravity 1
corruption 1




12


Incarnate
Debilitating strike
gloves (3), Incarnate avatar (4), lucky dice (0), BWG (3), planar chasuble (brow),
12+1
wis: 4+8+1luck +3bwg
str: 4 +8+1luck +3bwg
Con: 2
depravity 1
corruption 1




13


Incarnate


gloves (4), Incarnate avatar (5), lucky dice (0), BWG (4), planar chasuble (brow),
13+1
wis: 5+10+1luck +4bwg
str: 5 +10+1luck +4bwg
Con: 2
depravity 1
corruption 1




14


Incarnate


gloves (4), Incarnate avatar (5), lucky dice (0), BWG (4), planar chasuble (brow),
14+1
wis: 5+10+1luck +4bwg
str: 5 +10+1luck +4bwg
Con: 2
depravity 1
corruption 1




15


swordsage
maiming strike (assassins stance)
gloves (4), Incarnate avatar (5), lucky dice (0), BWG (4), planar chasuble (brow),
14+1
wis: 5+10+1luck +4bwg
str: 5 +10+1luck +4bwg
Cha: 1
Con: 2
depravity 2
corruption 1




16


incarnate


gloves (5), Incarnate avatar (6), lucky dice (0), BWG (5), planar chasuble (brow),
15+1
wis: 6+12+1luck +5bwg
str: 6 +12+1luck +5bwg
Cha: 1
Con: 2
depravity 2
corruption 1




17


incarnate


gloves (5), Incarnate avatar (6), lucky dice (0), BWG (5), planar chasuble (brow),
16+1
wis: 6+12+1luck +5bwg
str: 6 +12+1luck +5bwg
Cha: 1
Con: 2
depravity 2
corruption 1




18


incarnate
indigo strike
gloves (6), Incarnate avatar (7), lucky dice (0), BWG (1), planar chasuble (brow), IS(4)
17+1
wis: 6+12+1luck +1bwg
str: 6 +12+1luck +1bwg
Cha: 1+8IS
Con: 2
depravity 2
corruption 1




19


incarnate


gloves (6), Incarnate avatar (7), lucky dice (0), BWG (2), planar chasuble (brow), IS(4)
18+1
wis: 6+12+1luck +2bwg
str: 6 +12+1luck +2bwg
Cha: 1+8IS
Con: 2
depravity 2
corruption 1





undead are immune to the effects of taint. The first time you are subject to taint or depravity, there are fort save effects. This whole entire build is built around gloves of the poison soul.

[torrasque666]

-snip-
Just a nitpick. You don't qualify for Indigo Strike for two reasons. 1) Sneak Attack special ability is not the same as Sneak Attack Class Feature(and referring to the rules printed for the rogue to save time and space rather than reprinting them doesn't make it so) 2) You have no CON score. Every Incarnum Feat in the Magic of Incarnum has a prerequisite of CON 13. Undead Meldshaper doesn't get around this, just allows you to use Wis in place of Con for DCs.

[The Viscount]

Two other means of dealing ability damage in normal melee are Justiciar and Bloodhound from Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer. Both have some limitations. Justiciar's is triggered whenever it uses its own special nonlethal sneak attack (so doesn't work against those immune to nonlethal). It deals 1 point of strength damage per hit. Bloodhound can only use it on a target it has declared a mark (a simple thing, but only done 1/week and only a few at a time). It works on any melee attack or ranged attack within 30 feet, and deals 2 strength damage per hit. These classes have some shared entry means, so can of course be combined.

[emeraldstreak]

Found an old post of mine answering to an OP about making Touch of Golden Ice DC 3.5-ish; and why Golden Ice is good in general.


Linking ToGI to Con is obviously a good way to bring it to 3.5 standard, however, even at low DC ToGI is extremely powerful. It's a ravage, and so it receives an additional damage bonus equal to its victim's Cha bonus, plus another bonus if said victim is undead/evil outsider/etc. For instance, a Pit Fiend rolling a natural 1 would suffer an average of 13.5 dexterity damage on the first save, or 17 dex damage on the second save if it comes to that.

Increasing DC to 10+1/2lvl+Con will let PCs to reach DCs in the 20s, even powerful evil outsiders will have more than 5% to fail such DCs, and undead, lacking Con, are very vulnerable (i.e. Nightcrawler, the highest CR undead in MM, has +12 on Fort). Mind you, ToGI can be inflicted with a mere touch attack, bypassing the natural armor of monsters, and natural armor is very often a major component of monster AC.

[daremetoidareyo]

All of the nonmagical ability damage builds that I put together are hampered by a few things.
1.) wording
First you need a source of ability damage. Usually this is limited to a few points, and often doesn't have a damage die. You need a DM that is willing to accept that bonuses to damage rolls apply to all damage, not just hp damage.

2.) save DCs. The save DCs for many abilities are pretty bad, so you need to blow feats on them. And they are build on FORT saves, so the people you want to cripple the most, the front liners, are the most immune.

3.) outright immunity to stuff.


I made a fuglimancer build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19553550&postcount=248) for a terrible prestige class that, once it gets going, does 10-15 charisma damage per turn.

Lastly, if magic is involved, nothing beats a druid.
breath of the jungle and venomfire alone make them kings of attribute damage. At least you can do real damage too! Take aspect of nature druid from UA, spit poison, extra spell for lightning bolt, and finish it all off with 10 levels of hexer.

[Troacctid]

Found an old post of mine answering to an OP about making Touch of Golden Ice DC 3.5-ish; and why Golden Ice is good in general.

I don't know if I'd be singing its praises against undead, since undead are immune to physical ability damage.

[daremetoidareyo]

Last one. I worked on this last week but couldn't get it to jive. I was trying to use thayan slaver 2's ability to do a single point of wisdom damage by overshooting an intimidate check. I just couldn't do it to enough people per round to really deplete them. The Break will ability of Thayan Slaver reads: "Any time the Thayan slaver wins an Intimidation check by 10 or more, the opponent takes 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage." So I thought about how to get the max number of intimidate checks into a turn. What I need are unlimited skill trick uses!

Nobuo the Taskmaster: Changeling rogue 1/fighter
str:8 dex:10 con 14 int: 14 wis: 10 cha: 18


Level
Class
Feats
Abilities



1

Changeling sub level rogue
Able learner
Take 10 on intimidate checks, sneak attack, 10 skillpoints



2
Thug Fighter (UA)

Join the Land of Honor Affiliation (PHB2)



3
Thug Fighter (UA)
Scathing wit (DrComp), Intimidating Strike (CW)
Bonus feat



4
Zhentarim Fighter (CoV)
Skill Focus (intimidate)
skill focus intimidate



5
Thug Fighter
Combat Panache, Never outnumbered skill trick (CS)
bonus feat, Fearsome Roster Teamwork benefit (HoB)



6
Zhentarim fighter (CoV)
Imperious Command (DotU)
Extended intimidation



7
Avenging Executioner (CS)

Bloody Blade, sudden strike



8
Avenging Executioner (CS)

Rapid intimidation (move action)



9
Thayan Slaver (UE)
Precocious Apprentice (CA)
Ruthless beating, enervating attack. Land of Honor affiliation Score 11: (+2 racial bonus on intimidate checks)



10
Thayan Slaver (UE)

Break will



11
Fighter
weapon focus (whip or net)
bonus feat



12
Exotic weapon master (CW)
practiced spellcaster (CA)
Exotic weapon stunt: Showoff



13
Fighter





14
Fighter
Fighter bonus feat
bonus feat



15
Zhentarim Fighter
Extra spell (cause fear) (CA)
Swift demoralization.



16
Dread witch (HoH)
Unnatural will (HoH)
Master of terror. +2 to intimidate checks per level. Unnatural will.



17
Dread witch (HoH)

absorb fear



18
Dread witch (HoH)
feat
fear empowerment



19
Dread witch (HoH)

Delay fear, Land of Honor affiliation Score 16: (+4 racial bonus on intimidate checks)



20
Dread witch (HoH)

Horrific aura, reflect fear





So what do we have @ 15th level:
Before round 1: use Scathing wit to begin fight. Target takes 1 wisdom damage and has -1 to attack rolls for (charisma bonus) rounds.
Round 1: Duel of wills before initiative: they submit, take -2 to initiative and another -1 to attack this round. Ignore or participate, you get bonus to attack and target takes 1 wisdom damage.
Swift Imperious never outnumbered Demoralize: All within 10 feat of target cower, drop items, -2 all rolls, no dex bonus. All take 1 wisdom damage
Move
Intimidating Attack: target is shaken for the rest of the encounter, target takes 1 wisdom damage. Because they have no dex bonus, they can be treated as flat footed, so avenging executioner's Bloody Blade comes into play, everyone who can see your attack has to make a will save or be shaken for 2 rounds.

Not bad, on round 1, you successfully did 4 wisdom damage to 1 target, made 1 or more opponents within 10 feet of him drop their weapons and cower and take 1 wisdom damage, and opponents within 30 feet had to make a will save vs. being shaken.

Round 2:
Move action: Combat panache: Sneering Glower the opponent you just struck. He takes 1 wisdom damage. He also takes -4 to attacks.
Standard action: Exotic weapon stunt: showoff: target becomes shaken for 1 round, takes 1 wisdom damage:
Swift action imperious demoralize someone else: target cowers, takes 1 wisdom damage.

Main target has taken 6 wisdom damage. And people are starting to panick.

Round 3:
Choose any combination of moving, intimidating striking a cowering or panicked dude, sneering at the guy you hit last turn, and showing off, swift imperious demoralizing anyone you haven't explicitly targeted yet.

I do suppose that there is room for maiming strike and craven in this build somewhere to do massive charisma damage on your intimidating strikes, but you won't get to really enjoy the build until a level over 10.