On Monks and Their Abilities [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Curmudgeon

2015-08-10, 09:52 PM

But if you had to make the monk class a little better, how would you do it?
There are many suggestions. I recommend you ignore the ones about making the Monk better at hitting things. One daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) from you friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard will do quite well to cover that.

Here are my three suggestions. The first two cover all classes.

Use the standard point buy system for character stats, as per DMG page 169, with the number of points dictated by your primary class using the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
50 point buy.

Your points will be based on your primary class, which may change throughout the build. Primary class is the class with the most levels, or the more powerful (lower Tier number) class if you have classes with equal numbers of levels. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary (i.e., would make a sacrifice to earn access to greater power), but would never retroactively gain points.

Favored classes under the normal rules help avoid multiclassing XP penalties, but provide nothing favorable for those class choices. These house rules accentuate positive qualities more than negatives.

If your first class level is in a favored class you get your choice of either a bonus [Racial] or [Regional] feat or 100 gp as a one-time benefit. (You need to meet the feat prerequisites as usual.) Favored Class: Any does not qualify for the bonus feat option (just the gold). A character with Favored Class: Fighter starting as a Fighter may instead select a [Fighter] feat at 1st level, and Favored Class: Monk starting as a Monk may select a fighting style and also get *both* regular level 1 Bonus Feat selections, without needing to satisfy prerequisites for any of those Monk feats.

(Note: 100 gp is the cost of the magical materials needed to summon a familiar.)

Favored classes listed for your character receive 1 extra skill point each level (4 at 1st level). The only Favored Class: Any race which qualifies for this is Half-Elf. (Humans already get both a bonus feat and extra skill points; Half-Elves need a little extra love.)

Multiclassing XP penalties don't happen as long as you have at least 1 level in a favored class. Favored Class: Any *does* qualify for this exception, so Human characters never have multiclassing penalties.

(Favored Class: First one chosen works the same as Favored Class: Any.)

Monks get both bonus feats at levels 1, 2, and 6 (which still doesn't make it a good class). Monks selecting an Unearthed Arcana fighting style (pages 52-53) get the UA fighting style feats plus one of the regular bonus feats. 3 extra feats aren't nearly enough to help this poorly-designed class, so I've added more, in one area of specialization. Monks designate a Dragon magazine fighting style at first level, chosen from those in Dragon # 309 (pages 64-68) or Dragon # 315 (page 66). They then may add an extra feat at every Monk level, which must be chosen from their designated Dragon magazine fighting style. The Monk must meet all prerequisites for the Dragon magazine fighting style feats; if there is no unchosen feat from their designated Dragon magazine fighting style for which they meet the prerequisites, they gain no such bonus feat at that level.

Flickerdart

2015-08-10, 09:56 PM

Thanks for the suggestion! But if you had to make the monk class a little better, how would you do it?
Well, let's take a look at the problem first.

Monks have something of an identity crisis. Tell me - what should a monk do?

Monks fight by dodging and punching - poorly. A monk has very low HP for a front-line fighter, and only a medium base attack bonus (which is further reduced by flurry) which means that he can't take a punch, and he can't throw one. Monks can't wear armour, and while they can add Wisdom to AC, this doesn't go very far because they need five of the six ability scores to be high if they want to get the full benefit of their abilities (a fighter can buy plate mail while a monk needs high DEX and WIS, and a fighter can buy an axe while the monk needs high STR). As a result, monks will usually have to spread their points and have no good scores. To fix this consider reducing a monk's reliance on these scores. More BAB and a smaller Flurry penalty means they need less STR. A larger hit die means they need less CON. More skill points mean they need less INT. Allowing monks to wear light armour reduces their reliance on DEX and WIS.

Monks grapple - poorly. Remember the whole thing about low Strength and low BAB above? A grappling monk means a dead monk, especially as monsters get bigger and stronger. Grappling a halfling at level 1 will work fine, but grappling a dragon at level 10 will not. Small, physically weak targets like rogues and casters have ways to slip out of your grasp - Escape Artist checks or teleportation/freedom of movement. To fix this consider giving the monk full BAB again, as well as more bonuses on grapples than just the bonus feat. Also, give the monk some way of preventing Escape Artist and magic being used to sidestep their grapple.

Monks hit-and-run - poorly. The monk's speed bonus is enhancement, meaning it doesn't stack with the easiest ways to boost speed. Furthermore, flurry needs a full attack action, which you can't do after moving. Monks do not natively gain any advanced movement modes such as climbing or flying. To fix this consider giving them some, as well as giving them better teleportation than 1/day dimension door. Letting them move as a swift action or making Flurry a standard action fixes a big problem.

Monks inflict status effects - poorly. Stunning Fist will have a low DC because the monk can't invest a lot in Wisdom (see point #1) and affects Fortitude saves, which tend to be the highest for most monsters. Quivering Palm is usable too infrequently to matter, and has the same DC problem. To solve this give monks more uses of these abilities, as well as more varied uses.

You can also try to capitalize on monk strengths (of which there are not many).

Monks pack a punch. With the highest base damage die in the game, monks that get big can hit hard. Build in some way for the monk to increase size categories (either for real, or just for damage purposes).

Monks are harder to affect with spells. High saves, Evasion, and crappy spell resistance are not enough, but it's a start. Raise their SR (and/or let them drop it as a free action to let friendly casters cast on them), give them Mettle and Slippery Mind, and so on. Their immunities are useless, so give them immunities to things that actually matter, like energy drain.

Telonius

2015-08-11, 07:29 AM

My own houserules on the Monk are:

Full BAB. Flurry of Blows is a standard action.

Officially proficient in its Unarmed Strike. (IMO, it should be obvious that this was the intent originally, but just to clarify). They also get proficiency with Gauntlets, which are considered a Monk weapon.

Monks can spend time (for meditation), gold (for incense), and XP to enhance their own body, both armor and attacks, as though they were a spellcaster with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. (If the enchantment requires a spell to be cast, and any spellcaster of the Monk's class level were capable of casting the spell, the Monk can add the enchantment). This is an (Ex) ability.

I've also considered another house rule that (while not Monk-specific) could help the Monk: Weapon Finesse is no longer a feat, but a property of the weapon. Finesse-able weapons can use Dex instead of Str on attack rolls.

EDIT: Oh, forgot about alignment: remove the alignment restrictions.

Grim Reader

2015-08-11, 07:59 AM

For a very minor boost, consider relaxing the alignment restrictions, and doing Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Monk x.

D12 starting hit dice, pounce and ability to rage papers over some of the Monks issues at very low levels. It does not really fix the structural issues, so expect problems to reappear as you level up.

In general, I understand Pathfinders Unchained Monk is a better all-around fix.

Taveena

2015-08-11, 09:03 AM

You can also try to capitalize on monk strengths (of which there are not many).

Monks pack a punch. With the highest base damage die in the game, monks that get big can hit hard. Build in some way for the monk to increase size categories (either for real, or just for damage purposes).

Second biggest, after Platinum/Gold Fullblade. But that's not Bludgeoning, so Monks can get a Colossal-damage fist much more easily. Ask your DM if you can TWF unarmed strikes while flurrying - there's some content heavily implying that you can TWF unarmed strikes, but Pathfinder - as little influence as they have on this conversation - made the ruling that they flat-up don't stack. It does kiiiind of lay on the penalties a bit thick, but if - like a Rogue - your damage is coming from high-dice attacks rather than ability scores, getting as many attacks off as possible is good. (Consider Gloves of the Balanced Hand to lessen the feat tax.)

DMVerdandi

2015-08-11, 12:55 PM

Hey everyone, I had a question. I've always enjoyed playing a monk because of the amount of abilities they have. The only problem I see is that they can be a little underpowered at the beginning. I had some ideas of how to make them better, but would like other people's opinion. Thanks (note: I don't want the monk to have too many abilities. Just some more to make him/her a little more powerful)

3.5 already made better monks.
Cleric and druid.

Cleric of course has hella spells, wisdom SADness, and a really decent frame.
Superior unarmed strike+Monk's Belt+ War spontaneous domain+ intuitive attack+ Smiting spell.

Druid can do something similar
Druidic Avenger + Deadly Hunter + Superior unarmed strike + Intuitive attack

The cleric is more cosmic, divine oriented and spiritual.
The Druid is more naturalistic, primal, and physical.

It's a Confucianism/Taoism duality between the two.
Will one move closer to heaven, or root themselves down to earth.

Extra Anchovies

2015-08-11, 01:06 PM

EDIT: Oh, forgot about alignment: remove the alignment restrictions.

Indeed. The lawful-only restriction prevents characters like Sing from Kung Fu Hustle (CN, eventually CG) or Dr. Yang from The Iron Monkey (NG).

Jormengand

2015-08-11, 01:10 PM

Honestly, monk fixes have always ranged from "Give them full base attack bonus" which is what you want to compete with a fighter, through "Be an unarmed sworcererdsage" which is what you want to compete with bards all the way to monstrously powerful top-down rewrites which are totally not shameless self-promotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431660-quot-Mind-over-matter-matter-over-magic-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29), which is what you want to be taking on wizards. It depends on how powerful you need this person to be, really.

Baroknik

2015-08-11, 01:12 PM

There is actually a pretty decent homebrew for monks from this forum. Jiriku wrote it back in 2010, and from the few times I've had players use monks I've offered them this option and things seemed to have gone well for me. It definitely ups the power/versatility of the monk, but if it is enough I cannot say. YMMV.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed

Rubik

2015-08-11, 03:20 PM

It is possible to optimize a monk so hard that they can keep up with anything but seriously optimized T1 characters, but it requires knowing how to abuse the hell out of the monk's innate properties, such as the fact that its unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons -- so if you can somehow manage to nab 300 gp at 1st level, make your unarmed strike masterwork, add a bunch of items that enhance your unarmed strike, and then pile on lots of weapon enhancements, as I've done here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) Note that that monk build is the one I used to go toe-to-toe solo with some of the most powerful monsters in 3.5.

If you count the monk's entire body as an unarmed strike (which it is), then you can start doing things like adding Ghost Touch for at-will incorporeality, Throwing for rocket punching/Dhalsim punching/Falcon punching/ranged ki strikes, Exit Wounds for a chestburster Kool-Aid Man effect, and Metalline to turn yourself into living adamantine. Throwing is especially awesome, since Falcon punching by throwing your own body around means you put your own movement speed to shame and can, essentially, fly at a ridiculous speed by aiming for 5' spaces a long ways away. Even better with Distance, Far Shot, and other means of improving throwing ranges.

There are tons of ways to stack effects onto a monk's unarmed strikes. If you have enough cash, you can get a +80 or better weapon pre-epic. The enhancement bonuses themselves won't stack, but all the special abilities will. And then you have things like Greater Magic Weapon and MIC weapon crystals.

Good stuff.

If you want to know how such a monk would look while doing his thing, look no further than this food fight scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U10ZY14KHPI

All the food they're throwing? Reflavored ranged unarmed strikes.

Necroticplague

2015-08-11, 03:39 PM

If you count the monk's entire body as an unarmed strike (which it is), then you can start doing things like adding Ghost Touch for at-will incorporeality, Throwing for rocket punching/Dhalsim punching/Falcon punching/ranged ki strikes, Exit Wounds for a chestburster Kool-Aid Man effect, and Metalline to turn yourself into living adamantine. Throwing is especially awesome, since Falcon punching by throwing your own body around means you put your own movement speed to shame and can, essentially, fly at a ridiculous speed by aiming for 5' spaces a long ways away. Even better with Distance, Far Shot, and other means of improving throwing ranges.

Um, that doesn't work. Your unarmed strike is delivered with any part of your body, but it is not your body itself. You can add those enchantments, but they don't give you those weird transformations/ablities. Ghost touch doesn't make you selectively incoporeal, Metalline doesn't give your body the properties of adamantine (other than giving you what's basically improved ki strike), Throwing your unarmed strike doesn't move you.

Rubik

2015-08-11, 03:51 PM

Um, that doesn't work. Your unarmed strike is delivered with any part of your body, but it is not your body itself. You can add those enchantments, but they don't give you those weird transformations/ablities. Ghost touch doesn't make you selectively incoporeal, Metalline doesn't give your body the properties of adamantine (other than giving you what's basically improved ki strike), Throwing your unarmed strike doesn't move you.Citation?

It's not breaking any rules, and it keeps monks competitive in ways they simply aren't otherwise. They need all the help they can get.

Troacctid

2015-08-11, 04:29 PM

Citation?

It's not breaking any rules, and it keeps monks competitive in ways they simply aren't otherwise. They need all the help they can get.

It's breaking a bunch of rules. You can only craft objects, so you can't just make your unarmed strike masterwork, unless a rule specifically says otherwise. Ranged attacks also don't work that way; the attacker explicitly remains in their own square. And the jump from "Using any part of your body to make an unarmed strike" to "Your entire body is an unarmed Strike" is not supported by the rules; an unarmed strike is defined as a type of attack, not a type of creature. This is just off the top of my head; I'm sure I could find more problems with it if I dug around.

D&D is permissive, not restrictive. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.

Mr Adventurer

2015-08-11, 04:29 PM

My instafix:

-Full BAB
-Flurry of Blows is a Standard Action
-All abilities usable per day are instead usable per encounter
-At 11th level, all (Sp) or (Su) abilities that normally take a Standard Action instead take a Swift Action
-Add Wis to all Str-, Dex-, and Con-based skills.

Rubik

2015-08-11, 05:15 PM

It's breaking a bunch of rules. You can only craft objects, so you can't just make your unarmed strike masterwork, unless a rule specifically says otherwise.And a monk's unarmed strike counts as manufactured for various effects. Making a weapon masterwork and enhancing it is an effect, as the first grants a +1 to hit, and the second grants +1 to damage and whatever other effects you want to add, so that's perfectly legal. There are lots of examples in the rules for enhancing body parts on creatures, such as the kensai, the psionic weapons master, the necklace of natural weapons, and the warforged. Monk is just another example given, since a monk's unarmed strike is considered manufactured, and manufactured weapons can be enhanced.

Ranged attacks also don't work that way; the attacker explicitly remains in their own square.You can explicitly make your unarmed strikes into throwing weapons. See the entry for a necklace of natural weapons, for this specific example.

And the jump from "Using any part of your body to make an unarmed strike" to "Your entire body is an unarmed Strike" is not supported by the rules; an unarmed strike is defined as a type of attack, not a type of creature.And a body slam is a perfectly valid way to make use of your unarmed strike. Body slamming an enemy via throwing is a perfectly reasonable way to move your body from where you are to where you are throwing to, if you can't Falcon punch your way there. It's not like you won't go where your body goes, after all.

This is just off the top of my head; I'm sure I could find more problems with it if I dug around.Except every one of your objections is wrong.

D&D is permissive, not restrictive. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.And the rules say you can do so, as I mentioned above.

Jormengand

2015-08-11, 05:17 PM

You can explicitly make your unarmed strikes into throwing weapons. See the entry for a necklace of natural weapons, for this specific example.

To clarify, the NoNW explicitly lists throwing as an example of a property you could put on your natural weapons.

Yael

2015-08-11, 05:32 PM

Have it take the Vow of Poverty feat, it improves a lot the monk class.

For this post, Blue means sarcasm.

Curmudgeon

2015-08-11, 05:34 PM

And a monk's unarmed strike counts as manufactured for various effects. Making a weapon masterwork and enhancing it is an effect
That step (making a weapon masterwork after it is created) is explicitly disallowed.
You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill, page 70). The character's unarmed strike exists (is created) before they become a Monk, at which time it starts to also be treated as a manufactured weapon.

Heliomance

2015-08-11, 05:47 PM

To clarify, the NoNW explicitly lists throwing as an example of a property you could put on your natural weapons.

I always figured that turned you into Rayman.

I'mma take the opportunity to plug my own Monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?421168-Yet-Another-Monk-Fix-(High-T3-)-PEACH), which I'm really rather fond of.

Troacctid

2015-08-11, 06:29 PM

That step (making a weapon masterwork after it is created) is explicitly disallowed. The character's unarmed strike exists (is created) before they become a Monk, at which time it starts to also be treated as a manufactured weapon.

Right, exactly. It might be possible to have a masterwork unarmed strike somehow, I dunno, but it would have to involve weird shenanigans.

And a body slam is a perfectly valid way to make use of your unarmed strike.

Citation on this? I can't find any rules support for an unarmed attack that uses your whole body rather than just part of your body, or for an unarmed strike that causes you to move into a different square as part of the attack.

To clarify, the NoNW explicitly lists throwing as an example of a property you could put on your natural weapons.

Oh sure, I'm aware of this, my point is there's no indication that throwing a natural weapon causes you to leave your space. The default rule is that you don't leave your space while attacking (even if you use part of your body to attack someone in a different square) and nothing's contradicting that in this scenario.

RolkFlameraven

2015-08-11, 10:53 PM

That step (making a weapon masterwork after it is created) is explicitly disallowed. The character's unarmed strike exists (is created) before they become a Monk, at which time it starts to also be treated as a manufactured weapon.

That is what I thought as well, barring a NoNW or a AoMF, however there is a spell in pathfinder 'Masterwork Transformation' that might work, though i'm unsure if there is anything like it in 3.5.

ben-zayb

2015-08-12, 09:19 AM

Hey everyone, I had a question. I've always enjoyed playing a monk because of the amount of abilities they have. The only problem I see is that they can be a little underpowered at the beginning. I had some ideas of how to make them better, but would like other people's opinion. Thanks (note: I don't want the monk to have too many abilities. Just some more to make him/her a little more powerful)

You may find Bekeleven's Monkday Guide to Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524-Bekeleven-s-Monkday-Guide-to-Monks) helpful, as it outlines what a monk ought to do, what the monk actually does, and what possible fixes to the monk can be done so that it does what it needs to do. This Monk alternative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404941-a-Monk-alternative-not-posted-on-a-monkday-PEACH) is what I ended up making, taking said things into consideration.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 09:25 AM

That is what I thought as well, barring a NoNW or a AoMF, however there is a spell in pathfinder 'Masterwork Transformation' that might work, though i'm unsure if there is anything like it in 3.5.

This won't work - while a monk's unarmed strike is indeed treated like a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells, it is neither an "item" nor an "object."

RolkFlameraven

2015-08-12, 09:36 AM

This won't work - while a monk's unarmed strike is indeed treated like a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells, it is neither an "item" nor an "object."

It would require a very permissive DM yes and I would simply point them to the UnMonk in the first place. But as the target line is 'Weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool or skill kit touched' and a monk's body (or at lest parts of it) is a 'weapon' it could be argued.

Rubik

2015-08-12, 09:41 AM

This won't work - while a monk's unarmed strike is indeed treated like a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells, it is neither an "item" nor an "object."Except "manufactured weapon."

Regardless of whether you senselessly nerf the monk, there are lots of other ways to add enhancements to a monk's unarmed strike. Knocking +9 off won't affect it that much, especially considering that there are so many other ways to do so that it's likely you won't fill them all up prior to epic anyway. And if you take kensai (or psionic weapons master, assuming you take Psiforged as a warforged), you can ignore the nerf anyway.

So you can still make the monk work in the way I suggested fairly easily.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 09:48 AM

It would require a very permissive DM yes and I would simply point them to the UnMonk in the first place. But as the target line is 'Weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool or skill kit touched' and a monk's body (or at lest parts of it) is a 'weapon' it could be argued.

Right, but the spell effect references items and objects. I wouldn't let you cast that on a bite or tentacle either, and those are also weapons (but again, not items.)

Except "manufactured weapon."

Regardless of whether you senselessly nerf the monk, there are lots of other ways to add enhancements to a monk's unarmed strike. Knocking +9 off won't affect it that much, especially considering that there are so many other ways to do so that it's likely you won't fill them all up prior to epic anyway. And if you take kensai (or psionic weapons master, assuming you take Psiforged as a warforged), you can ignore the nerf anyway.

So you can still make the monk work in the way I suggested fairly easily.

I have no problem enhancing their unarmed strike. Just not with Masterwork Transformation. (Nor do I consider it to be "senseless" to disallow that one spell, there are plenty of others they can benefit from like GMW and Strongjaw.)

RolkFlameraven

2015-08-12, 10:11 AM

Right, but the spell effect references items and objects. I wouldn't let you cast that on a bite or tentacle either, and those are also weapons (but again, not items.)

As I said, argued. Every DM is going to have to look at it and decide if the guys over at Paizo even thought about the monk at all when they made the spell in the first place. A claw, bite, slam or tentacle is a natural attack while a monk's unarmed strike is an oddball that can ACT as an item while a bite can't.

In your game it wouldn't fly, in mine it might. All the spell would give is a +1 on attacks and a 3.5 monk needs all the help it can get. If they are going to enchant their whole body its not like getting a sword custom made where they can come back in a week, if a monk is doing the same he has to sit there every day for eight hours getting tattooed, or having surgery or running though kata while under the training of a grand master or what have you for a day per 1000 GP, and many campaign's don't give that kind of down time.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 10:53 AM

I don't really see it helping the monk because it's an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with their AoMF or Bodywrap anyway. Regardless we can agree to disagree.

Taveena

2015-08-12, 11:21 AM

Well... the Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species lets you enhance unarmed strikes unambiguously, and the Combining Magic Items/Common Magic Items and Effects rules mean they're not particularly penalized for the lack of a neck slot.

Curmudgeon

2015-08-12, 11:32 AM

Well... the Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species ...
The 3.5 update is the Necklace of Natural Attacks, and you can find it here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) (bottom of the page).

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 11:33 AM

Wait, hang on, this argument is about whether or not you can masterwork your UAS, right? But...

"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
"Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5."
"For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus and the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer's natural weapons."

So you just put on your necklace and your UAS is automatically masterwork, right?

Curmudgeon

2015-08-12, 11:54 AM

Wait, hang on, this argument is about whether or not you can masterwork your UAS, right? But...

"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
You're overlooking one important point:
unarmed strike

A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.
You can make the unarmed strike magical, but it remains without weapons. Magical or not, there's still nothing there to be masterwork.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 12:09 PM

Oh lawdy, not this can of worms again.

(Can a talented person make the Jetpack Guy (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/203/742/nothing_to_do_here_by_rober_raik-d4cxltj.png) meme look like Ember or Sajan?)

Segev

2015-08-12, 12:33 PM

I suppose you could develop a masterwork body by hiring a wizard to create a clone of you, spending the extra gp (mechanically) and going through the extra effort (fluff-wise) to make that clone a masterwork body.

Then kill yourself to transfer into it.

Your body is now a masterwork weapon.

For warforged, you could probably literally forge yourself a new body, replacing yourself bit by bit with new, masterwork bits.

Fouredged Sword

2015-08-12, 12:35 PM

That step (making a weapon masterwork after it is created) is explicitly disallowed. The character's unarmed strike exists (is created) before they become a Monk, at which time it starts to also be treated as a manufactured weapon.

Obviously the solution to this problem is to be born into a long line of monks, from a mother who is a monk, who took cross class ranks in craft (babymaking). She can then spend 300gp while crafting the child and adding more time to the crafting period to ensure that the baby is born "masterwork". Because the child is born to such a long line of monks, it is a monk from birth, allowing it to be treated as a manufactured weapon.

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 01:03 PM

You're overlooking one important point:
You can make the unarmed strike magical, but it remains without weapons. Magical or not, there's still nothing there to be masterwork.

Right, but they are treated for all purposes as weapons, so it doesn't matter that they aren't weapons. You can make them masterwork because they're treated, for all purposes, as weapons. Including the ability to make a MWK version.

Extra Anchovies

2015-08-12, 01:11 PM

Right, but they are treated for all purposes as weapons, so it doesn't matter that they aren't weapons. You can make them masterwork because they're treated, for all purposes, as weapons. Including the ability to make a MWK version.

Which "unarmed strikes are treated as weapons" clause are you citing here? It appears in the PHB multiple times with different wordings and contexts. We should probably start giving page numbers.

Segev

2015-08-12, 01:14 PM

Right, but they are treated for all purposes as weapons, so it doesn't matter that they aren't weapons. You can make them masterwork because they're treated, for all purposes, as weapons. Including the ability to make a MWK version.

To make a masterwork version, yes. Not to upgrade existing into masterwork.

Hence why you need to have a new body built that is masterwork. (Clone works well for this, so you can body-hop by dying.)

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 01:19 PM

To make a masterwork version, yes. Not to upgrade existing into masterwork.

Right, only the point is the necklace makes it magic, which means it's MWK.

Segev

2015-08-12, 01:27 PM

Right, only the point is the necklace makes it magic, which means it's MWK.No, the necklace transfers the benfits of its magical properties to your unarmed strike. It doesn't make your unarmed strike magical, itself. So you treat it for most purposes as such, but it's still not masterwork.

More to the point, even if it were, you'd have to enchant on top of the necklace's other enchantments, and it would probably fall apart when you took of the necklace, anyway. You're better off just enchanting the necklace more.

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 01:29 PM

No, the necklace transfers the benfits of its magical properties

No, it transfers the magical properties themselves, not their benefits.

Segev

2015-08-12, 01:32 PM

No, it transfers the magical properties themselves, not their benefits.

Regardless, it doesn't say it makes it masterwork. Greater magic weapon doesn't make the weapon upon which it's cast masterwork, either. So you have an unarmed strike with magical properties.

The masterwork rule is that a thing must be masterwork before it can be enchanted as a magic item. Your unarmed strike is not being made a magic item; it is receiving magical properties from a magic item. That magic item - the necklace - is masterwork. But unless it says otherwise, it is not making your unarmed strike masterwork.

DMVerdandi

2015-08-12, 01:44 PM

Ahem...
Ward Cestus.

Now, what was the main topic?

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 01:51 PM

Regardless, it doesn't say it makes it masterwork. Greater magic weapon doesn't make the weapon upon which it's cast masterwork, either. So you have an unarmed strike with magical properties.

"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."

Segev

2015-08-12, 02:00 PM

"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."
"All magic weapons are masterwork weapons."

Your fists are not magic weapons, any more than the club upon which you cast greater magic weapon is one. It's a weapon with a magical enhancement bonus.

Moreover, if you look at the context of the rule you're quoting, it is specifically in the magic weapons section, and is making a point about the consequence of another rule: that an item must be masterwork before it can be made into a magic item. All magic items that are weapons are masterwork weapons because they had to be before they could be made into magic weapons.

You're getting cause and effect backwards, both in fluff and in RAW when taken in context. All magic weapons are masterwork items because they had to be masterwork before they could be made magical.

Things which give them magical properties without making them "magic weapons" in the context of "required Craft Arms and Armor to make" bypass this and invalidate that statement.

illyahr

2015-08-12, 02:13 PM

Which "unarmed strikes are treated as weapons" clause are you citing here? It appears in the PHB multiple times with different wordings and contexts. We should probably start giving page numbers.

Unarmed strikes are listed in the PHB as a weapon on the weapons table in the chapter on equipment. It is on a table that lists weapons, so it is a weapon.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 02:15 PM

I think what Segev is saying is that a "magic weapon" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) isn't the same as a "magic weapon" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) - if that makes sense.

(Of course, none of this matters for the purposes of Masterwork Transformation - even if an unarmed strike is considered a masterwork weapon after it becomes magical, you still can't use that spell to make it one.)

Hal0Badger

2015-08-12, 02:17 PM

I really like how this thread goes off from trails, like wrecking train. This was supposed to be a discussion about enhancing monk, not "if unarmed strikes can be masterwork or not".

On the topic:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained

Unchained monk, allows a better Monk overall: Full BAB, no penalty on flurry of blows, flurry of blow style attacks, a better bonus feat list (you might want to convert some of them to 3.5, like adding paralyzing strike or rapid stunning feats to list instead of pathfinder ones) and a customized ki abilities: Normally it is fixed what a monk gains at each level, but Unchained monk can select these abilities from a list, so you can aim the ones you like, and skip the useless ones.

It still does not fix the AC problem, but somewhat mitigates hitting and damage problem (you can use a staff 2 handed+flurry of blows, with PA, and I would add two weapon frighting for an extra unarmed strike, which still gets the full str bonus). Beside, you get "monk only" special flurry of blow style strikes, which some of them are quite nice (one of them allows movement "while doing" a full-attack action)

Is it a fix? I cannot tell for sure. Is it more fun than monk? YES, IN EVERY SENSE.

Taveena

2015-08-12, 02:22 PM

Is it a fix? I cannot tell for sure. Is it more fun than monk? YES, IN EVERY SENSE.

It's a stealth massive buff, because Unchained Monk has a buried note in it that you can now take Qinggong powers. Which push the monk to a low tier 3. Alongside the other more obvious buffs.

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 02:24 PM

All magic items that are weapons are masterwork weapons because they had to be before they could be made into magic weapons.

Only, it doesn't say that. All it says is, all magic weapons are masterwork. If I make something magic by having a necklace that makes it magical (which it does), then it also becomes masterwork.

Rubik

2015-08-12, 02:29 PM

To make a masterwork version, yes. Not to upgrade existing into masterwork.

Hence why you need to have a new body built that is masterwork. (Clone works well for this, so you can body-hop by dying.)Note that I explicitly talked about spending 300 gp on character creation to ensure your body is masterwork, rather than upgrading later. The effect is identical, mechanically, even if you fluff it as training in kame-sen'nin ryu, or something.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 02:32 PM

Taveena

2015-08-12, 02:33 PM

Note that I explicitly talked about spending 300 gp on character creation to ensure your body is masterwork, rather than upgrading later. The effect is identical, mechanically, even if you fluff it as training in kame-sen'nin ryu, or something.

I've seen this come up before. What Craft check is it to make a Masterwork Unarmed Strike, given a newborn human is capable of making an unarmed strike? For a Warforged, that's feasible, but unless you've got some kind of Artisan Babymaker in your town who ISN'T just an extremely drunk man making every woman in the village uncomfortable, I'm not sure how you'd craft it. Can you have a Masterwork Claw made by the Catsmith?

Rubik

2015-08-12, 02:35 PM

I've seen this come up before. What Craft check is it to make a Masterwork Unarmed Strike, given a newborn human is capable of making an unarmed strike? For a Warforged, that's feasible, but unless you've got some kind of Artisan Babymaker in your town who ISN'T just an extremely drunk man making every woman in the village uncomfortable, I'm not sure how you'd craft it. Can you have a Masterwork Claw made by the Catsmith?Again, fluff it as intense training. Bruce Lee certainly had a masterwork body if anyone in history did, but he crafted it through training.

Yeah, it's fluffing it different than the mechanics say is normal for weapons, but if it's mechanically identical (spend 300 gp to make it masterwork) and the fluff makes sense, why is it that big of a deal?

Segev

2015-08-12, 02:43 PM

Only, it doesn't say that. All it says is, all magic weapons are masterwork. If I make something magic by having a necklace that makes it magical (which it does), then it also becomes masterwork.
Let me try putting it another way: What you're quoting is a statement of fact the SRD provides for clarity, not a rule the SRD is laying out as a source-fact. It is a fact as a consequence of the rule that a weapon must be masterwork before it can be made into a permanent magic item known as a "magic weapon." If you bypass the creation process that requires a masterwork weapon in order to get magical properties onto a nonmasterwork weapon, it remains a nonmasterwork weapon with magical properties. It is not, however, a "magic weapon" in the sense that it appears on a list of magic items and is made using Craft Arms and Armor. It is to that latter kind of "magic weapon" which the sentence you are quoting is referring in context. It is not a rule; it is a stated consequence of another rule in a specific context.

Again, fluff it as intense training. Bruce Lee certainly had a masterwork body if anyone in history did, but he crafted it through training.

Yeah, it's fluffing it different than the mechanics say is normal for weapons, but if it's mechanically identical (spend 300 gp to make it masterwork) and the fluff makes sense, why is it that big of a deal?Perhaps. Honestly, I know DMs who allow this kind of thing. I probably would, too. But it does come down to "DM call."

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 03:05 PM

Let me try putting it another way: What you're quoting is a statement of fact the SRD provides for clarity, not a rule the SRD is laying out as a source-fact. It is a fact as a consequence of the rule that a weapon must be masterwork before it can be made into a permanent magic item known as a "magic weapon." If you bypass the creation process that requires a masterwork weapon in order to get magical properties onto a nonmasterwork weapon, it remains a nonmasterwork weapon with magical properties. It is not, however, a "magic weapon" in the sense that it appears on a list of magic items and is made using Craft Arms and Armor. It is to that latter kind of "magic weapon" which the sentence you are quoting is referring in context. It is not a rule; it is a stated consequence of another rule in a specific context.

Only, it doesn't say that. All it says is, all magic weapons are masterwork. If I make something magic by having a necklace that makes it magical (which it does), then it also becomes masterwork.

Segev

2015-08-12, 03:12 PM

Only, it doesn't say that. All it says is, all magic weapons are masterwork. If I make something magic by having a necklace that makes it magical (which it does), then it also becomes masterwork.

Yes. If you completely ignore all of the context around it, ignore how it's used, what section it's in, and pretend that it is a prescriptive, stand-alone rule, it does say that.

Which means that anything on which you cast magic weapon is a masterwork weapon, too! As are all natural weapons upon which magic fang is cast!

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 03:18 PM

Yes. If you completely ignore all of the context around it, ignore how it's used, what section it's in, and pretend that it is a prescriptive, stand-alone rule, it does say that.

Which means that anything on which you cast magic weapon is a masterwork weapon, too! As are all natural weapons upon which magic fang is cast!

Yes, they are. It is a rule, because there's nothing that says it isn't. The idea of it being "Reminder text" is an idea from Magic, not from D&D.

SkipSandwich

2015-08-12, 03:24 PM

this is why, I, personally simply rule that "unarmed strikes function as natural weapons, full stop" and proceed from there. You cannot make iterative attacks or two-weapon fight with your Unarmed Strike, but you can make secondary Unarmed attacks as part of a full-attack action just like with any other natural weapon. This has the bonus of actually encouraging monks to make use of their various weapon proficiencies. Instead of Flurry of Blows, Monks get Multiattack as a bonus feat, instead of Greater Flurry, they gain 1 extra Unarmed Strike attack.

Instead of Ki Strike, Monks can meditate to enhance their Martial Arts, gaining an enhancement bonus that applies to their Unarmed Strike, Natural Weapons and attacks with special monk weapons they posses the Weapon Focus feat for. This works just like the Bonded Weapon ability of the Psychic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) minus the psicrystaly bits. The maximum effective bonus starts at +1 for a 1st level monk and increases by +1 for every 2 additional levels ending at +10 at 19th level. Monks gain Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a bonus feat at 1st level, but their unarmed strike damage does not otherwise increase outside of the bonus from Ki Strike. You can reassign your chosen enhancement bonuses, this takes the same amount of time spent medatation as awakening a bonus of that level, but costs no xp.

I haven't yet worked out a good way to handle all the supernatural abilities monks get, I'm considering just giving them Psychic Warrior manifesting at class level -4 starting at 5th level and calling it done, similar to the Divine Mind's power progression.

Segev

2015-08-12, 03:26 PM

Yes, they are. It is a rule, because there's nothing that says it isn't. The idea of it being "Reminder text" is an idea from Magic, not from D&D.

Nonsense. Magic clearly marks "reminder text." This isn't a rule; it's a clarification. It's clear from context. You want it to be otherwise, for reasons I can't quite figure out, but you're wrong.

Seriously, it doesn't actually help you solve the underlying problem of being unable to enchant the monk's unarmed strike due to it not being masterwork. If your reading were 100% right, it would only be masterwork while wearing the necklace. You'd have to enchant it while wearing it, thus it would have to ADD enchantments to what the necklace gives. This is, first of all, as expensive as just adding them to the necklace in the first place.

Secondly, because when you removed the necklace, the costs associated would be all off, the structure of the enhancement bonuses and equivalents would break down; it would be an illegal magic item and thus wouldn't work under the RAW and thus wouldn't remain a magic item. It also, per your justification for it being masterwork, would cease to be masterwork, so you couldn't even re-enchant it without putting the necklace back on.

You have, at best, made yourself dependent on the necklace for your unarmed strike's weapon properties, because you lose them without it. This is functionally equivalent to having put them on the necklace in the first place, except that now you can't sell the necklace along with the other weapon properties if you want to redo it.

At worst, you've had the magical properties vanish completely as illegal rules constructs, so putting the necklace back on means all you have is what it gave you before yo ustarted this whole exercise.

In short: there's no reason to do it this way; just further enchant the necklace. It's clear what that does within the rules, and it has the same net effect as your best-case scenario.

In any event, whether or not your argument about the necklace making your unarmed strike masterwork (and whether magic weapon makes anything upon which it's cast, even that rusty sword made by a careless apprentice blacksmith, masterwork) is irrelevant to any actually useful thing one could do dependant on it being masterwork.

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 03:34 PM

This isn't a rule; it's a clarification.

The distinction doesn't exist in D&D.

You want it to be otherwise, for reasons I can't quite figure out, but you're wrong
I don't care whether it is or not, it just happens to be.

Seriously, it doesn't actually help you solve the underlying problem of being unable to enchant the monk's unarmed strike due to it not being masterwork. If your reading were 100% right, it would only be masterwork while wearing the necklace. You'd have to enchant it while wearing it, thus it would have to ADD enchantments to what the necklace gives. This is, first of all, as expensive as just adding them to the necklace in the first place.

Oh absolutely, except that by the time you've enchanted it and removed the necklace, it's already masterwork in its own right, because it's already magical in its own right.

Secondly, because when you removed the necklace, the costs associated would be all off, the structure of the enhancement bonuses and equivalents would break down; it would be an illegal magic item and thus wouldn't work under the RAW and thus wouldn't remain a magic item.
I don't follow your logic here, because there isn't any.

It also, per your justification for it being masterwork, would cease to be masterwork, so you couldn't even re-enchant it without putting the necklace back on.

No, because it would be magical, which would sustain the MWKness, which sustains the magicalness. True, it's irreducibly complex, but that doesn't matter if nothing actually tries to reduce it.

Curmudgeon

2015-08-12, 04:11 PM

Unarmed strikes are listed in the PHB as a weapon on the weapons table in the chapter on equipment. It is on a table that lists weapons, so it is a weapon.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
The Glossary text (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U) which I quoted says an unarmed strike is without weapons, so it's not a weapon. The text takes precedence.

Segev

2015-08-12, 04:14 PM

Oh absolutely, except that by the time you've enchanted it and removed the necklace, it's already masterwork in its own right, because it's already magical in its own right.

I don't follow your logic here, because there isn't any.

No, because it would be magical, which would sustain the MWKness, which sustains the magicalness. True, it's irreducibly complex, but that doesn't matter if nothing actually tries to reduce it.

The logic you're failing to follow is essentially this:

You put on a +1 flame strike necklace. You enchant your unarmed strike further with acid strike. This costs what it takes to move your weapon from a +2 equivalent to a +3 equivalent. You remove the necklace; your unarmed strike is now a +3-equivalent weapon with only acid strike. It does not even have the requisite +1 enhancement bonus. It is not a legal magic item. It therefore ceases to be one in an implosion of paradoxical rule dysfunction (created by your inversion of cause and effect).

At best, it becomes legal again when you put the necklace back on, and retains the acid strike. At worst, the acid strike is just gone because (if you're going to use M:tG style programmatic rules) it ceased to have a valid play zone in which to exist and thus isn't there to "return" when you put the necklace back on. Congratulations, you wasted 2000 gp and whatever time it took to get your unarmed strike enhanced to +3 equivalent.

Either way, it's not magical once you take the necklace off, because the RAW do not support acid strike existing on a permanent item in that fashion. Even if you put an addtional +1 enhancement bonus on it (making it a +2 flame strike acid strike unarmed strike while you wear the necklace), it cannot be a +4-equivalent weapon with only +1 acid strike on it, so it still isn't rules-legal and the RAW do not support it existing.

Obviously, you can house rule it to work very easily, but it's a house rule. The paradoxes in the RAW caused by your inversion of cause and effect (all magical weapons are masterwork because they had to be to become magical weapons; they are not made masterwork by becoming magical, despite your claims) mean that, by the RAW, it collapses into dysfunction when you take off the necklace.

You still haven't refuted my claim that (per your reading) magic weapon makes a rusty, crappily-built sword into a masterwork sword. Do you agree that this is so?

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 04:22 PM

it cannot be a +4-equivalent weapon with only +1 acid strike on it

Nor is it trying to be.

You still haven't refuted my claim that (per your reading) magic weapon makes a rusty, crappily-built sword into a masterwork sword. Do you agree that this is so?

Of course it does. And drowning a creature can be used to heal them. What, were you expecting the rules to make sense?

Psyren

2015-08-12, 04:22 PM

The Glossary text (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U) which I quoted says an unarmed strike is without weapons, so it's not a weapon. The text takes precedence.

At the risk of kicking off another 50-page thread, the text in the Weapons chapter also states that unarmed strike is a weapon. As the weapons chapter is the primary source on weapons, it therefore trumps the Glossary by your own citation.

Weapon Descriptions

Weapons found on Table 7–5: Weapons are described below, along with any special options for the wielder (“you”) has for their use.
...
Strike, Unarmed:
...
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

Segev

2015-08-12, 04:27 PM

Nor is it trying to be.Except it is, since you paid for it to be.

Of course it does.Okay. Just so we're clear on what you are trying to claim. That makes magic weapon a lot more powerful than it seems.

And drowning a creature can be used to heal them.Technically, no. There's nothing in the suffocation rules that says that you are saved from the death a couple of rounds later if you're pulled out and your hp are healed. Thus, even if you're pulled out once you hit 0 hp, and you're heal to full, the next round you go to -1. Even if you're then healed again, the next round you die.

If you're going to use rules technicalities to try to get you healed to 0 hp, you can't escape the rules technicalities that kill you two rounds later without any recourse.

What, were you expecting the rules to make sense?Not necessarily, but when a rule can be read in two ways, one of which leads to silly results and the other of which makes sense, the way that makes sense is generally the right way to interpret it. And in this case, it's not even necessary, but it is further evidence that your attempt to read the cause and effect backwards is wrong.

Curmudgeon

2015-08-12, 04:27 PM

At the risk of kicking off another 50-page thread, the text in the Weapons chapter also states that unarmed strike is considered a light weapon.
I fixed that for you. It's still not a weapon, just considered as a light one for categorization.

Psyren

2015-08-12, 04:33 PM

I fixed that for you. It's still not a weapon, just considered as a light one for categorization.

Where does it say "for categorization?" No qualifiers are given in the text. Furthermore, you haven't responded to the first part of the text that says "weapons are described below." Every entry in that section pertains to a weapon.

Odin's Eyepatch

2015-08-12, 04:33 PM

In the current campaign we're playing, I'm playing a character with 12 levels of Monk (with 1 level of cloistered cleric)

To make it more palpatable:

Wholeness of Body: "Wisdom mod x Monk levels" healing points today. Like the Paladin lay of Hands, but wisdom based, and self only. Also +5 sacred bonus to Heal checks

Abundant step: 3+wis mod charges a day, instead of 1. Can bring additional people for an extra +2 charges per person. Can do it as a move action for the cost of 4 uses.

Speed Bonus: Untyped bonus, and can choose to add +10 to speed, OR +10 to either Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble. Can mix and match.

We often play a bit unomptimised in our campaigns (plenty of new players have arrived), hence changes may seem small to what other people on these forums do. Doesn't fix everything, but shores me up in battle compared to the 2 sorcerers and the cleric...

Jormengand

2015-08-12, 04:35 PM

Except it is, since you paid for it to be.

You paid for your wand to have 50 charges.

Not necessarily, but when a rule can be read in two ways, one of which leads to silly results and the other of which makes sense, the way that makes sense is generally the right way to interpret it. And in this case, it's not even necessary, but it is further evidence that your attempt to read the cause and effect backwards is wrong.

You're adding further context to the rule that doesn't exist. The rule, as written, states that all magic weapons are masterwork. That's it. That is the entire context of the rule. It doesn't come with any ifs, buts or becauses.

I fixed that for you. It's still not a weapon, just considered as a light one for categorization.

"Weapons [...] are described below"

And what do we find "Below"?

"Strike, Unarmed:"

Segev

2015-08-12, 04:44 PM

You're adding further context to the rule that doesn't exist. The rule, as written, states that all magic weapons are masterwork. That's it. That is the entire context of the rule. It doesn't come with any ifs, buts or becauses.

"Context" doesn't mean "in the same sentence, it states 'unless...'"

"Context" means, if you read the section it's in, look at what is said near it, and understand to what it's referring, you get the correct meaning.

However, even in a vacuum, absent context, your reading is only one possible reading. Mine is also possible. If we had no other context, no clear way to determine which was right, yours would even be the more sensible one.

But we do have context. We know that weapons must be masterwork before they can be enchanted.

In fact, if we take that in exactly as much stand-alone vacuum as you wish to take the other, that means that your necklace does absolutely nothing when you put it on. Your unarmed strike was not masterwork before you put it on, so it cannot be made into a magic weapon. Therefore, since you say the necklace makes them magic weapons, it doesn't work.

Similarly, magic weapon doesn't actually give a +1 enhancement bonus to that sword unless the sword is already masterwork.

Of course, if we take the whole thing in context, as a cohesive set of rules, these dysfunctions go away. But so, too, does your attempted chicanery of turning your unarmed strike into masterwork via putting on a necklace.

Taken as a whole, cohesive set, in the context of the game as written, magic weapon and your necklace both impart magical properties to weapons without actually making them "magic weapons," and the sentence you're reading and the sentence about weapons needing to be masterwork before they can be enchanted are non-contradictory and actually have the latter explain the former.

Troacctid

2015-08-12, 05:59 PM

I guess I might as well share my current houserule fix for Monks.

Monks gain a bonus on all Strength checks, grapple checks, opposed attack rolls (such as disarm attempts), and Athletics, Balance, and Tumble checks equal to 3/4 of their class level, so long as they are unarmored; furthermore, starting at 3rd level, while unarmored, if they would add their Strength modifier to such checks, they may add their Dexterity modifier instead. Also, they gain a bonus feat at every level where they don’t already get a bonus feat; unlike standard Monk bonus feats, they must meet the prerequisites, and it can either be a Fighter feat or a feat that has a Monk bonus feat or class feature as a prerequisite. Monk levels count as full initiator levels rather than half for the purpose of maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw disciplines.

I also added some general buffs that affect the Monk: Weapon Finesse and Able Learner are given to everyone for free; Climb, Jump, and Swim are consolidated into Athletics; abilities like Flurry of Blows and Rapid Shot that normally only work on a full attack also work on a standard attack action; and I buffed a bunch of Monky feats.

smcmike

2015-08-12, 07:16 PM

Of course it does. And drowning a creature can be used to heal them. What, were you expecting the rules to make sense?

Yes.

My knowledge of silly rules tricks in D&D is admittedly slim, but it is a fundamental canon of statutory interpretation that rules are not meant to be absurdities. If something is ambiguous, rule on the side that makes sense.

If you play another way that's fine, maybe even great. I wouldn't know. But don't claim that it is objectively correct that, for instance, Magic Weapon is a good method for permanently changing rusty old swords into masterwork weapons.

RPZip

2015-08-12, 07:28 PM

I would say it does fix the AC problem - between Barkskin and Defensive Spin and Furious Defense you've got plenty. I'm less sure about their offense though, and I really think they didn't need weak Will. I would have preferred weak fort with a bunch of immunities instead.

Their offense is really solid out of the gate; Flurrying with a two-handed weapon (and 1.5x Power Attack) is fantastic, they've got full BAB, and with Flying Kick they have great mobility while still Full Attacking. Their will save is a little frustrating but between Still Mind, grabbing a trait to boost it and Wis being their secondary stat it's really not that bad. I recognize that this is less interesting than pages of discussion about whether or not you can masterwork enchant a monk's fists, though. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2015-08-12, 11:11 PM

Their offense is really solid out of the gate; Flurrying with a two-handed weapon (and 1.5x Power Attack) is fantastic, they've got full BAB, and with Flying Kick they have great mobility while still Full Attacking. Their will save is a little frustrating but between Still Mind, grabbing a trait to boost it and Wis being their secondary stat it's really not that bad. I recognize that this is less interesting than pages of discussion about whether or not you can masterwork enchant a monk's fists, though. :smalltongue:

I do like Flying Kick a lot but it takes a bit to get going - you can first do it at 5th and even then you can only go 10ft, and of course you can't combine it with another Style Strike (e.g. Defensive Spin, Spin Kick or Shattering Punch) in the same round until 10 levels later. Meanwhile Pummeling Charge is available only 3 levels later and you can combine that with a style strike, thanks to the errata.

Jormengand

2015-08-13, 04:11 AM

permanently

Duration: 1 min./level

TiaC

2015-08-13, 04:21 AM

Jormengand

2015-08-13, 04:29 AM

So, if I put on an AoMF and walk into an anti-magic field, do I get +1 to my attack from masterwork?

No, because the AoMF itself shuts off, so it's no longer making your weapon MWK.

Ashtagon

2015-08-13, 05:06 AM

Only, it doesn't say that. All it says is, all magic weapons are masterwork. If I make something magic by having a necklace that makes it magical (which it does), then it also becomes masterwork.

No it doesn't.

By RAW, to create a magic weapon using the crafting rules, the base weapon must be masterwork. It says absolutely nothing about making a weapon magical by any other method wrt whether or not it is masterwork.

Heliomance

2015-08-13, 05:55 AM

No it doesn't.

By RAW, to create a magic weapon using the crafting rules, the base weapon must be masterwork. It says absolutely nothing about making a weapon magical by any other method wrt whether or not it is masterwork.

You're talking at cross purposes to each other and going round in circles. Jor's position is that AoMF, the Magic Weapon spell, and the like bypass the crafting rules entirely and just state "this is now a magic weapon". As the section on magic weapons didn't take this into account, it used a blanket statement of "all magic weapons are masterwork". It probably should have read "all crafted magic weapons are created from masterwork bases" or something similar, but "should have" holds no weight here.

All magic weapons are masterwork. This is laid out in black and white, and I honestly don't see any way to argue against it. The only place Jor's argument is vulnerable to attack is in the precise definition of the term "magic weapon". If having the Magic Weapon spell cast on something turns it into a magic weapon, I don't see any way you can argue that it doesn't also become masterwork. The only way to avoid that consequence is to claim that the term "magic weapon" refers only to weapons with permanent enhancements created with the magical crafting rules. I'm not going to speculate on whether that's the case as I CBA to do enough source-diving to work it out. But if you want to disprove Jor's case, that's where you need to do it, not on the context of the sentence "all magic weapons are masterwork".

Segev

2015-08-13, 09:12 AM

Sorry, but if you're going to state that the consequences of other rules, when spelled out, make new rules in and of themselves, then you're essentially making a lot of spells permanent. Because you can take the sentence that gives their effect out of context and use it alone. The fly spell says that you have a fly speed. Clearly, you have one! That whole duration thing? No, no, that's reading for more context than you need. You have a fly speed. Heck, you don't even need to cast the spell! You just have one. It's right there in black and white.

Well, black and whatever color the SRD background is in, anyway.

Ultimately, it boils down to this: it's not a rule. It's a statement of the consequence of another rule.

And that other issue is also applicable: "Magic Weapon" in context of that sentence is referring to "magic items which are weapons," not "weapons enchanted with magical properties."

Your unarmed strike when you wear that necklace, as well as that rusty old sword upon which magic weapon has been cast, are not magic items that happen to be weapons. They are weapons which happen to have magic placed upon them.

Finally, once again, if we're taking stand-alone rules in a vacuum, then the rule that says that a weapon must be masterwork before it can be made magical would cause Jomagand's whole scenario to fail.

A weapon must be masterwork before it can be made into a magic weapon.
Your unarmed strike is not masterwork. It cannot be made into a magic weapon.
By Jorm's reading, putting on the necklace and giving your unarmed strike magical weapon properties makes it a magic weapon.
Since your unarmed strike is not masterwork and cannot be made into a magic weapon, putting on the necklace cannot make it a magic weapon.
Therefore, putting on the necklace does nothing.

Jormengand

2015-08-13, 09:15 AM

It's a statement of the consequence of another rule.

Show me any evidence to that effect.

Your unarmed strike when you wear that necklace, as well as that rusty old sword upon which magic weapon has been cast, are not magic items that happen to be weapons. They are weapons which happen to have magic placed upon them.

Show me any evidence to that effect.

Ashtagon

2015-08-13, 10:08 AM

...

Therefore, putting on the necklace does nothing. it is physically impossible to put the necklace around your neck.

That's how it should work, right?

Segev

2015-08-13, 12:12 PM

Show me any evidence to that effect.The costs of magic weapons use the masterwork cost as the base. It even notes that double weapons require the masterwork surcharge twice.

If your claimed reading was accurate, there would be no cost for the base weapon being masterwork. It would be made masterwork by being enchanted.

In addition, you have yet to address the fact that the fact that the rules state that a weapon must be masterwork before it can be made into a magic weapon would, by your reading achieve the following.

Therefore, putting on the necklace does nothing. it is physically impossible to put the necklace around your neck.

That's how it should work, right?

I'm not sure sure it would prevent you from putting it on; you can put on four magic rings, but only 2 function. The necklace just wouldn't function.

Jormengand

2015-08-13, 01:24 PM

The costs of magic weapons use the masterwork cost as the base. It even notes that double weapons require the masterwork surcharge twice.

If your claimed reading was accurate, there would be no cost for the base weapon being masterwork. It would be made masterwork by being enchanted.

Uhm, no, because you need it to be MWK before you can add magical properties, except when...

In addition, you have yet to address the fact that the fact that the rules state that a weapon must be masterwork before it can be made into a magic weapon would, by your reading achieve the following.

...specific is overriding general. Which it is, like, right now. Magic Weapon bypasses the restrictions because it applies to any weapon. So does the AoMF/NoNW because they apply to weapons that can't be masterwork unless those specific items are involved. So those items bypass the general restriction that any magical item must be MWK first, but they don't then bypass the restriction that anything magical must then become MWK, because there's nothing that implies that they do.

Psyren

2015-08-13, 01:56 PM

Unarmed Strike is a weapon, but it can't be made masterwork because that has to happen during its creation (gestation, heh.) It becomes masterwork if it ever becomes a magic weapon, but neither the magic weapon spell not the amulet of mighty fists actually state that they turn an unarmed strike into a magic weapon - rather, they just give it an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. It's a Chicken and Egg problem - there is no way to turn an unarmed strike masterwork except by constructing it as a magic weapon, and there is no way to construct an unarmed strike as a magic weapon without first making it masterwork.

So while you can enhance unarmed strikes, you can't actually make them into magic weapons.

Rubik

2015-08-13, 02:02 PM

So while you can enhance unarmed strikes, you can't actually make them into magic weapons.Unless you're a warforged, which can be augmented via magic.

And even if directly enhancing a non-warforged monk's unarmed strikes is disallowed (kensai aside), there are still plenty of other ways to do the exact same thing with equipment, spells, and feats so there's no real difference between the two.

danzibr

2015-08-13, 03:14 PM

Have it take the Vow of Poverty feat, it improves a lot the monk class.

For this post, Blue means sarcasm.
Huh. Ya know, you could give them the benefits of VoP for free.

TiaC

2015-08-13, 04:14 PM

No, because the AoMF itself shuts off, so it's no longer making your weapon MWK.

What if I stand outside the AMF and punch someone inside?

Jormengand

2015-08-13, 05:32 PM

What if I stand outside the AMF and punch someone inside?

Only ranged attacks from outside are demagicked when they enter. It's just like swording someone inside.

Psyren

2015-08-13, 07:53 PM

Unless you're a warforged, which can be augmented via magic.

They can only be augmented "just as armor can be." It doesn't say anything about weapon augments.

And even if directly enhancing a non-warforged monk's unarmed strikes is disallowed (kensai aside), there are still plenty of other ways to do the exact same thing with equipment, spells, and feats so there's no real difference between the two.

Oh I agree, there's no functional difference, and that's a good thing. Monks need ways to keep up with other martial classes - including magic items, buffs, class features and feats. Nobody is saying monks shouldn't benefit from these and more. But all of those have drawbacks - spells are limited in duration and can be dispelled, magic items have to found or purchased and then protected, and feats have an opportunity cost, just like they do for any other class.

What if I stand outside the AMF and punch someone inside?

Only ranged attacks from outside are demagicked when they enter. It's just like swording someone inside.

Swording, punching, shooting etc. someone inside an AMF will cause whatever portion of the attack crosses into the field to become nonmagical as it lands.

TiaC

2015-08-13, 07:55 PM

Only ranged attacks from outside are demagicked when they enter. It's just like swording someone inside.

Ok then, a +1 Throwing AoMF. Are my boomerang fists masterwork weapons in an antimagic field?

RPZip

2015-08-13, 08:08 PM

I do like Flying Kick a lot but it takes a bit to get going - you can first do it at 5th and even then you can only go 10ft, and of course you can't combine it with another Style Strike (e.g. Defensive Spin, Spin Kick or Shattering Punch) in the same round until 10 levels later. Meanwhile Pummeling Charge is available only 3 levels later and you can combine that with a style strike, thanks to the errata.

What errata is that, out of curiosity?

It's not quite as bad as all that, mostly because it gives you 15' of movement while full attacking (Flying Kick + 5' step), upgrading to 25' the level after you can first get it since the fast movement bumps up a tier at level 6. Pummeling Charge is definitely nice but locking you out of using actual weapon attacks hurts quite a bit and it's a three-feat combo; it also locks you out of other style feats if you're going into that route, like Dragon Style (quite a bit of damage and still keeping mobility because of Flying Kick) or Crane Style ('don't get hit', the musical). Pummeling Charge is also prone to overkilling issues, whereas Flying Kick means you can throw the overflow at another enemy.

Rubik

2015-08-13, 08:11 PM

They can only be augmented "just as armor can be." It doesn't say anything about weapon augments.Unless I'm mistaken, warforged can enhance their fists, which is what they use for slam attacks.

Psyren

2015-08-13, 08:35 PM

What errata is that, out of curiosity?

The Advanced Class Guide errata that dropped near the end of last month. Basically it changed Pummeling Style from a single punch into a combo, which means the Unchained Monk can replace one of the individual punches with a style strike now.

It's not quite as bad as all that, mostly because it gives you 15' of movement while full attacking (Flying Kick + 5' step), upgrading to 25' the level after you can first get it since the fast movement bumps up a tier at level 6. Pummeling Charge is definitely nice but locking you out of using actual weapon attacks hurts quite a bit and it's a three-feat combo; it also locks you out of other style feats if you're going into that route, like Dragon Style (quite a bit of damage and still keeping mobility because of Flying Kick) or Crane Style ('don't get hit', the musical). Pummeling Charge is also prone to overkilling issues, whereas Flying Kick means you can throw the overflow at another enemy.

Two feats actually, Pummeling Charge doesn't require Pummeling Bully and you get IUS for free.
Style Strikes also require you to use unarmed strike (at least for that particular hit) so I don't think it's all that different really.

Good point on the 5-foot step, as written you could 5-foot and flying kick but not 5-foot and Pummeling Charge.

Having said that though, it's worth pointing out that you can both Pummeling Charge and Flying Kick if you need to fly across the battlefield and really get into something's grill. This is especially true for your latter point with the overkill issues - you can Pummeling Charge one foe, pound the gently caress out of them with the first couple of punches, and if they drop and you still have attacks left, you can Flying Kick over to someone else and keep the combo going.

So I would always recommend Pummeling Style unless you don't plan to fight unarmed at all.

Unless I'm mistaken, warforged can enhance their fists, which is what they use for slam attacks.

Their slam is a natural weapon and is enhanced the way all other natural weapons are - via Necklace of Natural Attacks or AoMF or the like. Not via crafting - they can only enhance their plating that way, and only as if it were armor.

RPZip

2015-08-13, 10:04 PM

The Advanced Class Guide errata that dropped near the end of last month. Basically it changed Pummeling Style from a single punch into a combo, which means the Unchained Monk can replace one of the individual punches with a style strike now.

Two feats actually, Pummeling Charge doesn't require Pummeling Bully and you get IUS for free.
Style Strikes also require you to use unarmed strike (at least for that particular hit) so I don't think it's all that different really.

Good point on the 5-foot step, as written you could 5-foot and flying kick but not 5-foot and Pummeling Charge.

Having said that though, it's worth pointing out that you can both Pummeling Charge and Flying Kick if you need to fly across the battlefield and really get into something's grill. This is especially true for your latter point with the overkill issues - you can Pummeling Charge one foe, pound the gently caress out of them with the first couple of punches, and if they drop and you still have attacks left, you can Flying Kick over to someone else and keep the combo going.

So I would always recommend Pummeling Style unless you don't plan to fight unarmed at all.

Just went to go reread the errata'd version and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It loses the increased crit chance, which was really nice, but it does work quite a bit better with Style feats now as well as having fewer weird interpretations. With that said, it's still an opportunity cost; in a lot of fights, even if not all of them, you can probably get full attacks off just on the basis of Flying Kick and not needing to spend the two feats on Pummeling Charge, since you can reach your enemies just on the basis of the initial movement; investing in Dragon Style instead gets you +1x STR on your first hit and .5x STR on every other hit as well as other bonuses, which adds up pretty fast.

Pummeling Charge is still a great feat, don't get me wrong, I just feel like the UnMonk doesn't actually require it the way the normal Monk or Brawler does.

Psyren

2015-08-13, 11:38 PM

Keep in mind that if you're using Flying Kick, that locks you out of any other style strike that same round until level 15. No Defensive Spin, No Spin Kick, no Shattering Punch. So again, even if you do plan to use Flying Kick a lot, it's still handy to have the option. I agree the UnMonk can do without it more than regular and Brawler, but I would nevertheless still take it on every monk (that fights unarmed), including them.

As for Dragon Style - proper application of Combat Style Master will let you get most of the goodies there, and the fluff is fantastic as you flow from style to style. (I need to go reread Wheel of Time...)

Sir Chuckles

2015-08-14, 01:47 AM

That step (making a weapon masterwork after it is created) is explicitly disallowed. The character's unarmed strike exists (is created) before they become a Monk, at which time it starts to also be treated as a manufactured weapon.

So, what Craft skill would a Druid have to take to Reincarnate the party monk with Masterwork Hands?

Troacctid

2015-08-14, 02:25 AM

So, what Craft skill would a Druid have to take to Reincarnate the party monk with Masterwork Hands?

Reincarnation doesn't use the Craft skill, so that's not a thing you can do.

Jormengand

2015-08-14, 07:36 AM

Ok then, a +1 Throwing AoMF. Are my boomerang fists masterwork weapons in an antimagic field?

You mean a throwing NoNW; the AoMF can't put special qualities on. But no, because the only thing making them MWK is the fact that they're magical.

Segev

2015-08-14, 08:32 AM

Except they can't be, because they had to be masterwork to make them magical, and they weren't. So your necklace didn't work.

Or, they're enchanted, but not magic weapons, and the necklace works just fine by giving them magical properties. They are not, however, masterwork.

If you attempt to use "specific overrides general," then the specific rules about enchanting magic weapons would override the general rule that weapons have to be masterwork to be enchanted.

Which would mean that that rule never applies, since every time magic weapons are created, they become masterwork due to specific overriding general.

Or it can be read in a consistent and sensible manner, taking the whole thing in context, and realizing that "all magic weapons are masterwork" refers to the fact that they had to be before they could be made into the class if item known as "magic weapons."

Your necklace-enhanced unarmed strike is not a "magic weapon."

In fact, the full text just around the sentence you like to quote out of context is as follows:

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

Note that it does not say one crucial thing to support your claim that your unarmed strike is a magic weapon: it does not say, "Weapons with enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5 are magic weapons."

In fact, it does not define the term. It gives a necessary, but not sufficient, quality: that they are +1 to +5 and that they are masterwork.

This would imply that anything which does not meet ALL of these qualifications, at the least, are not "magic weapons."

Even if you have a rusty sword with a +1 enhancement bonus, it is not masterwork, and therefore is not a "magic weapon."

For an indication of what a "magic weapon" is, that is, what is a sufficient condition, we are left to to turn to the rest of the section, which defines magic weapons in terms of their crafting costs and, in the case of "specific magic weapons," their names. Magic weapons, we learn, as we read about them, require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat to create, and have costs associated with them, including being masterwork before the enchantment process even begins.

There are rules for creating magic weapons. If a weapon is not made following those rules, it is not a magic weapon.

Your unarmed strike was not made according to those rules. It was given magic weapon properties by another magic item (which did follow the magic item creation process), but that is not sufficient to make it a "magic weapon" under the rules.

There is no way for there to be a magic weapon that was not masterwork to begin with. The process to make them says they're required to be. Anything that does not follow that process is not a magic weapon.

The only "specific trumps general" rules still follow that stricture, too: call weapon and other spells and effects which conjure magic weapons from whole cloth still are masterwork from the get-go.

About the only thing I can think of that would overcome this and allow you to transform a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon by making it magical would be something along the lines of the wish spell: "I wish this rusty old sword was a flaming sword!" would work, but it's making it masterwork as part of making it magical, rather than making it magical to make it masterwork. In effect, the wish spell is making a wholly new magic item out of whole cloth, mechanically; the original rusty sword is just fluffed to have transformed. (Though I suppose one could argue for upgrading existing items above the 25k gp limit of wish by using the cost of the base item to make up the overage.)