Need Advice on a Psionic build

[5w337x7007h]

I'm curious if there's a psionic build that would impress a mindflayer, given the right 'spells' and feats. I'm also interested in the new Occult Adventures and howu the Mesmerist and Psychic work, and if they'd be a more balanced choice instead of using Ultimate Psionics by Dreamscarred Press.

I'm aiming to build character touched by Chthulhu (or maybe Nethys?). A build that focuses on dominating intelligent creatures, but with some capacity to deal the mindless, example; constructs, swarms, oozes, and undead. Or a build that focuses on the ability to pull the ectoplasm from the void to create monstrosities that would aid in combat.

Psion looks like a heavy contender, maybe the path of metacreativity, or telepathy.

What would you guys advise?

[rockdeworld]

I'm curious if there's a psionic build that would impress a mindflayer, given the right 'spells' and feats.
There are (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0) several (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/lordofprocrastinations-dirty-tricks.html). The question is how far down the optimization path you'd like to go.

Perhaps the simplest way to impress a Mindflayer: catch one, then use Diamonds Are Forever (in the link above) to turn into one, complete with 17th level Egoist manifesting.

But for less TO advice, the psion handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) will help.

[Eldaran]

I'm also interested in the new Occult Adventures and howu the Mesmerist and Psychic work, and if they'd be a more balanced choice instead of using Ultimate Psionics by Dreamscarred Press.

I find Ultimate Psionics to be the most balanced and interesting book in Pathfinder, so I'd definitely recommend sticking with that.

[5w337x7007h]

Mindflayers aren't available to Pathfinder, which sucks, but hey, it's the situation.

I'm curious about the Occult Adventures classes, because Paizo decided to turn psionics into a third class of magic. Divine, Arcane, and Psychic. I'm not sure how it works, so when I can I'll look into it.

That aside, I do have Ultimate Psionics, and metacreativity and psychometabolism are the highly recommended in that psion handbook.

Any advice from there on?

[Unbodied]

Mindflayers aren't available to Pathfinder, which sucks, but hey, it's the situation.

I'm curious about the Occult Adventures classes, because Paizo decided to turn psionics into a third class of magic. Divine, Arcane, and Psychic. I'm not sure how it works, so when I can I'll look into it.

That aside, I do have Ultimate Psionics, and metacreativity and psychometabolism are the highly recommended in that psion handbook.

Any advice from there on?

If you want to dominate people's wills you should probably give the Thrallherd a glance. Might be a bit op though.

[Nyaa]

I'm curious about the Occult Adventures classes, because Paizo decided to turn psionics into a third class of magic. Divine, Arcane, and Psychic. I'm not sure how it works, so when I can I'll look into it.

"Psychic spells" are just exact copies of arcane spells with no verbal or somatic components.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm curious about the Occult Adventures classes, because Paizo decided to turn psionics into a third class of magic. Divine, Arcane, and Psychic. I'm not sure how it works, so when I can I'll look into it.

Paizo didn't "turn psionics into" anything. Psychic magic is not paizo vancian psionics, as much as people like to paint it that way to disparage the system. The only thing it has in common with 3.5 or DSP psionics is a vague mental fluff, and each of the two systems establishes and develops this mental fluff in different ways.

The main functionality difference between psychic magic and arcane/divine magic is that instead of verbal and somatic components you have thought and emotion components (the psychic version of a spell replaces verbal components with thought components and somatic components with emotion components). The concentration DC for a spell with a thought component is 10 higher because of the focus needed to properly carry out the spell, but the DC can be reduced back to the normal amount by spending a move action to get your s**t together center yourself. A spell with an emotion component can't be cast by a character experiencing an effect with the fear or emotion descriptors, because they are not in control of their own emotions. Psychic spells are also entirely mental actions, so they can be cast while heavily armored, pinned, tied up, paralyzed, or whatever.

[Slithery D]

Additionally, psychic magic can be cast in armor with no arcane spell failure chance, and there's apparently no way to spellcraft ID a spell being cast, so you can't be counter spelled and your DM might let you get away with casting in social situations to do some secret mental manipulation. I'd expect maybe a sense motive check to figure out why you look so intent, though.

Psychic spells are very focused on enchantment, illusion, summoning, and spirits/ectoplasm. You get a few force and fewer sonic effects, but no real evocation for reliable damage dealing. The new spells are often useable by arcane casters, usually at a higher level, and have a number of new mental/dream/spirit/ectoplasm effects. The psychic only spells tend to be more cool and flavorful than OP.

[5w337x7007h]

Alright then, I'll go Psion, but I don't know much about it beyond what it does in theory. Would someone mind pushing me in the right direction? I'd enjoy knowing that I can do these things, but I don't want to get stuck in a situation without a decent understanding.

I'm aware, from the description in the book, that Metacreativity is similar to conjuration, but instead of summoning, you pull energy from the astral plane. Telepathy is similar to enchantment and illusion, in the compulsory/mind-effecting capabilities.

Would it be better to fall into telepathy or metacreativity for versatility in combat?

[Slithery D]

Metacreativity is more versatile. Your constructs can do damage and can be customized with special abilities. You also have powers that can crowd control and do direct damage. Telepaths mostly can just control, debuff, and have some minor damage options. Lots of stuff is immune to them. On the other hand, they can have a dominated army follow them around and do the heavy lifting if you're not good aligned.

[Unbodied]

Metacreativity is more versatile. Your constructs can do damage and can be customized with special abilities. You also have powers that can crowd control and do direct damage. Telepaths mostly can just control, debuff, and have some minor damage options. Lots of stuff is immune to them. On the other hand, they can have a dominated army follow them around and do the heavy lifting if you're not good aligned.
Plus don't you get an army and loads of dominated followers for free if you're a Thrallherd? Probably pretty op but if the goal is to make a mindflayer give a tentacles up and tell you how much it admires your work its probably the best class.

[5w337x7007h]

Well I'm considering the fact that the group is about to encounter an entire army of giants. Stone, Hill, Ogre, and above. I shiver at the thought of actually controlling an entire army of giants with a wave of my hand.

Edit: Alright guys, I'd like to work on a Thrallherd. Undermine my enemy and just have fun.

[Ssalarn]

I'm curious if there's a psionic build that would impress a mindflayer, given the right 'spells' and feats. I'm also interested in the new Occult Adventures and howu the Mesmerist and Psychic work, and if they'd be a more balanced choice instead of using Ultimate Psionics by Dreamscarred Press.


As a note on this subject, Vancian casting tends to be responsible for the bulk of the imbalances to be found in the system. Psychic magic doesn't change this much, it mostly just changes the way the spells are cast (in several ways, like the removal of ASF, to the benefit of the caster). Occult Adventures is pretty solid, but it doesn't change much at the core of things and it definitely isn't psionics. Psychic magic is very different than 3.5/DSP style psionics.

If you have any question about the balance of Ultimate Psionics materials, I'd point you to the top reviewer in the industry (http://endzeitgeist.com/ezg-reviews-ultimate-psionics/). Some relevant snippets:



"10 psionic 20-level base classes, all of which are superior to any prior incarnation"

"Editing and formatting of this massive tome are of a surprising quality – excellent and top-notch by any realistic definition."

"We’re talking about what essentially is a completely non-optional book in my opinion"

"Every campaign that shirks psionics not for flavor, but for by now completely inaccurate accusations of balance-issues is missing out on one of the most rewarding expansions for Pathfinder"

"my players consider unanimously psionics to be the superior system when compared to vancian spellcasting"


Just to hit the highlights.

[5w337x7007h]

Alright! Alright! Quit twisting my arm! I'll use Ultimate Psionics!

I still need some advice though. I'm going to build a Thrallherd, and I want to know how to keep it expedited and minimalist. I really don't want to drag out the fights by dominating hordes of minions.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright! Alright! Quit twisting my arm! I'll use Ultimate Psionics!

I still need some advice though. I'm going to build a Thrallherd, and I want to know how to keep it expedited and minimalist. I really don't want to drag out the fights by dominating hordes of minions.

Take boring full attack melee brutes for your major Thralls, only ever use your strongest dominated monster in any given combat and sacrifice them regularly.

[Ssalarn]

Take boring full attack melee brutes for your major Thralls, only ever use your strongest dominated monster in any given combat and sacrifice them regularly.

That'd be my advice as well.

[5w337x7007h]

Alright, so I'll consult with my GM on what a good brute thrall would be at lvl 10. I might go with an orc barbarian, have a wand of enlarge and use it as a mount when not in combat. Can you effectively keep a raging barbarian in check with mind control?

[Extra Anchovies]

As a note on this subject, Vancian casting tends to be responsible for the bulk of the imbalances to be found in the system. Psychic magic doesn't change this much, it mostly just changes the way the spells are cast (in several ways, like the removal of ASF, to the benefit of the caster). Occult Adventures is pretty solid, but it doesn't change much at the core of things and it definitely isn't psionics. Psychic magic is very different than 3.5/DSP style psionics.

If you have any question about the balance of Ultimate Psionics materials, I'd point you to the top reviewer in the industry (http://endzeitgeist.com/ezg-reviews-ultimate-psionics/).

It's worth noting that DSP psionics has just as much potential to break games as 3.5 psionics does, because the former inherited a lot from the latter. You can, for example, still create fast-time demiplanes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/g/genesis), disjoin people's items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/u/unravel-psionics), double your action economy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/f/fission), bring about the tippyverse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychoportation-circle), do whatever the heck you want (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/r/reality-revision), and so forth.

That being said, although DSP psionics has its share of options that are every bit as unbalancing as those provided by paizo spellcasters, it also has plenty of well-designed, balanced content (as does paizo spellcasting, but that's besides the point here). The Soulknife is alright (and getting better, with its installment in the Psionics Augmented series), the Aegis is very nice (but it's starting to get a fair bit of power creep), the Marksman, Cryptic, and Dread are all at least decent (but I barely ever hear about them on the forums and haven't played them myself, so I can't really know), and the Psychic Warrior is a very well-written update to the 3.5 version. As with vancian magic, it's the 9th-casters - psions, wilders, and to a lesser extent (due to their more limited lists) tacticians and vitalists - that can cause balance issues.

[5w337x7007h]

Guys we're getting off track here! Lets ignore Occult Adventures and focus on the fact that I've got Complete Psionics, I'm going to use it. I need your advice, however, on how I should build the character. What feats, equipment, items?

[Nyaa]

Complete Psionics

Isn't it a 3.5 book?

[Extra Anchovies]

Isn't it a 3.5 book?

He's mentioned Ultimate Psionics upthread, which I think is what he's actually using. That's a good thing; CPsi is the second worst d20 psionics book after the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. *experiences psionic combat flashbacks*

[5w337x7007h]

He's mentioned Ultimate Psionics upthread, which I think is what he's actually using. That's a good thing; CPsi is the second worst d20 psionics book after the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. *experiences psionic combat flashbacks*

Yes yes! Ultimate Psionics, my bad! I"m just used to 'complete' and 'ultimate' meaning generally the same thing when it comes to source books, with respect to when they're printed.

Now, my fellow Giants, I'd appreciate some help on this. I'm not sure which feats I need, because I want to maximize the ability to dominate, but I'd like to be able to deal with enemies that can't be mentally controlled. Undead, Constructs, Ooze, Swarms, Plants, Vermin.

I'm building a lvl 11 Blue
5 Psion (Telepath)/6 Thrallherd; Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 10