How should the SG have prepared?

[SPoD]

OK, I hear a lot of people saying that strip #448 proves that the Sapphire Guard are morons, because they got beaten. I want someone to explain to me what, exactly, they were supposed to do to prepare against a force like Xykon.

I'm not asking what you think Rich should have added to their forces to make it a fair battle. I'm not asking you to point out why Symbol of Insanity shouldn't work that way. I'm saying, with the resources that the strip told us that they had, what were they supposed to do ahead of time?

• Assume that we have a group of 30-odd paladins and 4 or 5 clerics, none of whom are higher than 10th level, all higher than (let's say) 2nd level.

• Assume that while they know someone will be attacking the throne room, they don't know if it will be Xykon himself, Redcloak, or an army of low-level hobgoblins/zombies/ghouls.

• Assume that they don't know exactly when the attack is coming until they see Xykon outside the window 2-3 rounds before he breaks in.

• Assume that using Anti-Magic Field is out because it would interfere with the magic of the Gate, thus rendering the battle over anyway. I know, it doesn't say this in the strip, but it's entirely reasonable for it to work that way and given that we KNOW they can create permanent antimagic, we have to assume that there's a reason they didn't.

• You can include things that might have been done long beforehand, as long as they are permanent and constantly active WITHOUT being visible. Remember that members of the general populace needed to come in and out of that throne room daily without knowing about the Gate; you can't stick a Prismatic Sphere around it without raising a few questions.

• DON'T assume that they didn't have a given spell active because it wasn't specifically mentioned. As in, don't tell me, "Oh, I would have had the paladins cast Protection from Evil the round before Xykon broke in!" because for all we know, they DID. We just didn't see it because the narrative followed Xykon. Likewise, we don't know that the throne room wasn't the target of a Hallow spell, because it didn't come up. Unless, of course, the spell in question either a.) would have had a visual effect that we didn't see, such as casting Fly on more than one cleric, or b.) would have been guaranteed to change the outcome of the battle, such as casting Mind Blank on everyone (though that wasn't feasible for other reasons).

In short, I'm trying to ask that no one claim that there should have been magical defenses that we don't actually know WEREN'T there. If you need there to be a spell active for your proposed strategy, that's fine, but don't say they didn't do X, Y, and Z unless it can be conclusively seen in the comic. (For example, "They didn't summon monsters," that's a fact. "They didn't cast Prayer," that's unverifiable. They just didn't cast it after Xykon broke through the window.)

So, given that set of circumstances, what should the Sapphire Guard have done differently BEFORE the battle?

[Mummy king]

Armed everyone with magic hammers and maces.
Cast greater invisibility on the most powerful paladins.

I could go into a whole detailed defense plan, but really, i can't be bothered right now. Maybe later.

[Falkus]

• Assume that using Anti-Magic Field is out because it would interfere with the magic of the Gate, thus rendering the battle over anyway. I know, it doesn't say this in the strip, but it's entirely reasonable for it to work that way and given that we KNOW they can create permanent antimagic, we have to assume that there's a reason they didn't.


That's easily resolved. Use several anti-magic fields positioned so that the throne room and the surrounding area has magic nullified but the gate, in the exact center, isn't in any the field's areas of affect.

[Ravenlord]

And then you have a lich happily blasting all of your troops from the outside with meteor shower, and since you are in an antimagic field you can't retalliate, defend yourself or heck, heal.

[Falkus]

And then you have a lich happily blasting all of your troops from the outside with meteor shower, and since you are in an antimagic field you can't retalliate, defend yourself or heck, heal.

At what point in my suggestion did I mention putting absolutely everybody involved in the defense of the throne room inside an anti-magic field? It is perfect possible to help defend a room without actually being in it.

[Hurkyl]

At what point in my suggestion did I mention putting absolutely everybody involved in the defense of the throne room inside an anti-magic field? It is perfect possible to help defend a room without actually being in it.
So elaborate already.

Still -- if you put your paladins in the anti-magic field you nullify their spellcasting. Given the OOTS setting, it's reasonable to expect that includes smite evil. (it has a glowing special effect)

And you put the clerics and wizards... where? Downstairs, so they are your first line of resistance against the common method of entry to the throne room, and cannot see the battle if anyone happens to fly in?

[SPoD]

Armed everyone with magic hammers and maces.

The paladins only had 24 hours notice to know that they were specifically fighting a lich. They couldn't just whip up a bunch of magic hammers and maces overnight; even using Greater Magic Weapon is unrealistic for so many paladins. Slashing weapons are better against other undead, and non-undead foes aren't any better or worse against bludgeoning weapons. So I don't buy that they just should have carried bludgeoning weapons by default.

I will grant that they should have had maybe one magic bludgeoning weapon for every cleric in the room, based on those clerics making their Knowledge (Religion) checks and then casting Greater Magic Weapon on a warhammer or mace that morning. So, 4 magic hammers.


Cast greater invisibility on the most powerful paladins.

Prove that they didn't. We can't see them, they're invisible. How exactly would we have known? That's what I'm saying, just because we didn't see a wizard saying "Improved Invisibility!" doesn't mean that they didn't use it!

Invisible paladins would have still fallen victim to the Symbol, though. More to the point, there aren't any wizards in the Sapphire Guard. We don't know that they had any wizards who could be trusted with the secret of the Gate at all.


That's easily resolved. Use several anti-magic fields positioned so that the throne room and the surrounding area has magic nullified but the gate, in the exact center, isn't in any the field's areas of affect.

At what point in my suggestion did I mention putting absolutely everybody involved in the defense of the throne room inside an anti-magic field? It is perfect possible to help defend a room without actually being in it.

Explain how. I don't see how anti-magic is of any use if no one is standing in it. Xykon can simply destroy anyone outside the antimagic field, then walk in. He doesn't need to go right for the Gate, he can just pick off all the defenders.

Please, I'm really trying to see what sort of tactics were so obvious that the paladins were "morons" for not using them.

[Setra]

Unless they could nullify his casting powers somehow

It doesn't matter how they prepared.

[Poppatomus]

At what point in my suggestion did I mention putting absolutely everybody involved in the defense of the throne room inside an anti-magic field? It is perfect possible to help defend a room without actually being in it.

Except for the fact that it appears to be on the 8th floor of a tall tower and the people on the wall appear to be out of range of a flying opponent like xykon.

Also, remember, they don't necessarily know in advance it will be a magical opponent. Given the dependence of paladins on magic, they risk even more trouble in the case of competent mundane opponents if they can't use their magic within their own throneroom.

(I like the invisible paladin idea. I also wonder if it woudl be possible/available to throw a trap the soul on the gem itself.)

[Oxymoron]

The paladins couldn`t win over Xykon. They were mostly mid-level paladins and clerics with a few high-level paladins like O-chul. Xykon is at the very least 17th lv (most likely higher) and he could mop the floor with them with his high DC spells. The Sapphire Guard where prepared, but not for Xykon.

In respect for the SG, both Lirians forest creatures and Dorukans magic failed to stop Xykon. He is that powerful. Only the Oots will have any hope of deafeating him in the end.

[fangthane]

The only way the Sapphire Guard could reasonably have prepared, and obviously it's not realistic because they couldn't have known early enough, would have been to cast Blindness on several of their own. And of course that would have sucked fairly severely as soon as the rest went insane anyhow.

Which reminds me, I wonder whatever became of Sangwaan...

[Poppatomus]

The only way the Sapphire Guard could reasonably have prepared, and obviously it's not realistic because they couldn't have known early enough, would have been to cast Blindness on several of their own. And of course that would have sucked fairly severely as soon as the rest went insane anyhow.

Which reminds me, I wonder whatever became of Sangwaan...

ACtually wouldn't have worked. As long as any one of them saw the symbol, any other paladin, seeing it or not, within 60 ft. would have have to make the check. They would have needed to all be blind.

[Mr Wizard]

ACtually wouldn't have worked. As long as any one of them saw the symbol, any other paladin, seeing it or not, within 60 ft. would have have to make the check. They would have needed to all be blind.

Oh god... 40 some odd paladins wielding swords... while blind...

:smallfrown: The insanity spell might not have been necessary at that point...

[Poppatomus]

Oh god... 40 some odd paladins wielding swords... while blind...

:smallfrown: The insanity spell might not have been necessary at that point...

lol.

50% Miss chance though, might have allowed them to last a bit longer.

[LtPowers]

Two words: Dispel Magic.

Edit to add: I should point out, though, that I don't feel the SG were "morons" for not being able to defeat Xykon. I just can't figure why the one cleric didn't have any Dispels prepared.


Powers &8^]

[inky13112]

OK we know they don't have antimagic fields because we've seen magic go on inside the throne room. How do you think they summoned Eugene? (from the trial sequence)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that they were totally screwed, and really had nothing they could do to save themselves.

[Mef]

And then you have a lich happily blasting all of your troops from the outside with meteor shower, and since you are in an antimagic field you can't retalliate, defend yourself or heck, heal.

Ehm... doesn't Antimagic Field suppress all spell effects? Meteor swarms can't go off in there.

[Setra]

Two words: Dispel Magic.

Edit to add: I should point out, though, that I don't feel the SG were "morons" for not being able to defeat Xykon. I just can't figure why the one cleric didn't have any Dispels prepared.


Powers &8^]
Um.. two things: I don't think they can beat the DC to dispel the ball, and even then would it end the insanity?

Plus it's more dramatic this way.

[PlasticSoldier]

I would have flooded the lower parts of the throne room, put elementals in the water, have all spellcasters cast greater dispell magic, and when xykon fell in the water elementals would have got him, if they failed lightning bolt the water and convince the DM that the spellcasters should get plenty of situation bonuses.

[EvilElitest]

Realisticlly, the only thing i would expect was a dispel magic,
from,
EE

[Hurkyl]

Two words: Dispel Magic.

Realisticlly, the only thing i would expect was a dispel magic,
Alas, they can't dispel the rune until they know it's there. But by then, it's too late.

[happyturtle]

Design the throne room for defense instead of having it open to the outside. Make sure that anyone who wants to get in there has to go through a lot of doors, around corners, and other defensible points
Traps. Lots of traps.
Don't bunch all the defenders together so they can be hit by one spell. Use fortifications so that a few men can fight effectively in various spots, forcing an magical attacker to expend numerous spells before they get through.
Have a few anti-magic rooms that have to be passed through to get to the throne room.

[jindra34]

Design the throne room for defense instead of having it open to the outside. Make sure that anyone who wants to get in there has to go through a lot of doors, around corners, and other defensible points
Traps. Lots of traps.
Don't bunch all the defenders together so they can be hit by one spell. Use fortifications so that a few men can fight effectively in various spots, forcing an magical attacker to expend numerous spells before they get through.
Have a few anti-magic rooms that have to be passed through to get to the throne room.


yes that would have been a good idea for Soon but after the building was built... um... sorry no dice...

[Poppatomus]

yes that would have been a good idea for Soon but after the building was built... um... sorry no dice...

and it goes against the hide in plain sight concept. Though you might be able to subtely have many rooms that had to be cleared (which wouldn't work in this case since he flew in through a window) the traps would not only draw excess attention, but actually be dangerous.

"excuse me sire, the scroll seems to have rolled near this large tapestry, let me just move it out of the wa...urk"

"oh yea, watch the darts."

[EvilElitest]

Alas, they can't dispel the rune until they know it's there. But by then, it's too late.

wait, can't you dispel the insanity
from,
EE

[jindra34]

wait, can't you dispel the insanity
from,
EE

Nope takes "higher" healing type spells...

[taraxia]

Ehm... doesn't Antimagic Field suppress all spell effects? Meteor swarms can't go off in there.

Xykon could figure out some way to abuse Conjuration magic to get past an AMF like that.

And if he couldn't, he'd reluctantly sigh and wait for his hobgoblin army to swarm through the throne room and kill off the paladins by attrition.

[Mummy king]

Ok, here is what i would have done.

1) Boarded up the windows, with magically reinforced steel.
2) Dismantled all the staircases etc .
3) All SG members lvl 5-9 on the floor below throneroom
4)Boarded up and magically reinforced all doors
5) All SG members lvl 10+ in throneroom
6) All lvl 12+paladins with greater invisibility and warhammers w/greater magic weapon


Then i'd have some in-depth combat tactics. Which would change with the situation.

[jindra34]

Ok, here is what i would have done.

1) Boarded up the windows, with magically reinforced steel.
2) Dismantled all the staircases etc .
3) All SG members lvl 5-9 on the floor below throneroom
4)Boarded up and magically reinforced all doors
5) All SG members lvl 10+ in throneroom
6) All lvl 12+paladins with greater invisibility and warhammers w/greater magic weapon


Then i'd have some in-depth combat tactics. Which would change with the situation.

Good thing they got a MONTHS notice to Xykon's invasion... they did not have enough time to do all that...

[taraxia]

Ok, here is what i would have done.

1) Boarded up the windows, with magically reinforced steel.
2) Dismantled all the staircases etc .
3) All SG members lvl 5-9 on the floor below throneroom
4)Boarded up and magically reinforced all doors
5) All SG members lvl 10+ in throneroom
6) All lvl 12+paladins with greater invisibility and warhammers w/greater magic weapon


Then i'd have some in-depth combat tactics. Which would change with the situation.

This would require considerably more than a day's worth of preparation, and would completely shatter all pretense of secrecy about the Sapphire Guard immediately afterwards.

Also, "all SG members lvl 10+" probably means about four or five people, i.e. Miko, Hinjo, maybe Lei and *possibly* O-Chul. "All level 12+" is probably only Miko.

If you add the Order of the Stick your odds look considerably better, of course.

[Finwe]

The problem with an anti-magic field is that without smite evil (a supernatural ability) the Sapphire Guard have little to no chance of bypassing Xykon's DR. One thing they could have done is made the windows out of steel-glass, so any enemy wishing to enter would have had to com from the tower, or spend several rounds pounding glass - either way it would give them several more rounds of preparation. Next, cast mass eagle's splendor on everyone there. Now, when Xykon breaks through, the spellcasters that go before the paladins in initiative (if any) throw their most powerful nukes at Xykon. Next, highest level paladins with the greatest charisma rush Xykon and all use Lay on Hands. Lay on hands only requires a successful touch attack, and automatically bypasses a Lich's DR. An eighth level paladin with 14 cha and eagle's splendor will do 32 damage. You can get eight people around a single target (plus one for the flying boots guy). 9*32 = 288 damage. If Xykon's level 20 and has maximum hp for every roll and improved toughness, he's only got 260 health. Game over. Of course, after the first round, you'll still have to deal with the insanity, but no plan is perfect.

[The_Weirdo]

The problem with an anti-magic field is that without smite evil (a supernatural ability) the Sapphire Guard have little to no chance of bypassing Xykon's DR. One thing they could have done is made the windows out of steel-glass, so any enemy wishing to enter would have had to com from the tower, or spend several rounds pounding glass - either way it would give them several more rounds of preparation. Next, cast mass eagle's splendor on everyone there. Now, when Xykon breaks through, the spellcasters that go before the paladins in initiative (if any) throw their most powerful nukes at Xykon. Next, highest level paladins with the greatest charisma rush Xykon and all use Lay on Hands. Lay on hands only requires a successful touch attack, and automatically bypasses a Lich's DR. An eighth level paladin with 14 cha and eagle's splendor will do 32 damage. You can get eight people around a single target (plus one for the flying boots guy). 9*32 = 288 damage. If Xykon's level 20 and has maximum hp for every roll and improved toughness, he's only got 260 health. Game over. Of course, after the first round, you'll still have to deal with the insanity, but no plan is perfect.

I think Xykon's throwing the ball came before the vast majority could do anything. So, only three won Initiative.

[Finwe]

I think Xykon's throwing the ball came before the vast majority could do anything. So, only three won Initiative.

Had they been prepared for him breaking in, they all would have had readied actions.

[Hurkyl]

One thing they could have done is made the windows out of steel-glass, so any enemy wishing to enter would have had to com from the tower, or spend several rounds pounding glass - either way it would give them several more rounds of preparation.
This is the only thing you mention that falls under the umbrella of "preparation". (steel glass? I don't know enough D&D to know if there is such a thing) This couldn't be part of the throne room design, because it would draw too much unwanted attention. Could it be aquired on such short notice? (don't forget all the civilians have evacuated)

And does it really help with anything? It certainly doesn't help with the most likely direction of attack (i.e. from downstairs) And anyone attacking from the outside, well, starts outside so you can't get the jump on him with melee.

[fractal]

Next, highest level paladins with the greatest charisma rush Xykon and all use Lay on Hands. Lay on hands only requires a successful touch attack, and automatically bypasses a Lich's DR. An eighth level paladin with 14 cha and eagle's splendor will do 32 damage. You can get eight people around a single target (plus one for the flying boots guy). 9*32 = 288 damage. If Xykon's level 20 and has maximum hp for every roll and improved toughness, he's only got 260 health. Game over. Of course, after the first round, you'll still have to deal with the insanity, but no plan is perfect.
Yes, that's a much better plan than what they did do. Actually, even with what they did, they might still have won; they were clearly dealing damage to Xykon. They just needed to keep attacking. Even the insane paladins had a decent chance to act normally the first round; when they did, they needed to use that action to attack Xykon.

The paladins were there as a noble sacrifice; they should have made that sacrifice count for something.

[Mef]

The problem with an anti-magic field is that without smite evil (a supernatural ability) the Sapphire Guard have little to no chance of bypassing Xykon's DR.[...]

Well, actually a lich's damage reduction is a supernatural ability, which means that it disappears inside of an antimagic field.

The reasons why there's no antimagic field, if there are any, are purely story-related, I think (lack of casters to put it up, suspiciously costly, makes magic in the throne room impossible while they usually summon angels for trials there... don't know, something like that)

[Irbis]

The problem with an anti-magic field is that without smite evil (a supernatural ability) the Sapphire Guard have little to no chance of bypassing Xykon's DR. One thing they could have done is made the windows out of steel-glass, so any enemy wishing to enter would have had to com from the tower, or spend several rounds pounding glass - either way it would give them several more rounds of preparation.

One spell = no windows, or big enough hole in the wall

Next, cast mass eagle's splendor on everyone there.

That's a bit high level for them.

Now, when Xykon breaks through, the spellcasters that go before the paladins in initiative (if any) throw their most powerful nukes at Xykon.

And maybe one penetrates his SR, sorry.

Next, highest level paladins with the greatest charisma rush Xykon and all use Lay on Hands. Lay on hands only requires a successful touch attack, and automatically bypasses a Lich's DR. An eighth level paladin with 14 cha and eagle's splendor will do 32 damage.

He's:
A. Flying. No touchy.
B. Instantly paralysing anyone touching him.
C. We don't know if even O-Chul was actually as high as 8 level.
D. No bonus :smallwink:

You can get eight people around a single target (plus one for the flying boots guy). 9*32 = 288 damage. If Xykon's level 20 and has maximum hp for every roll and improved toughness, he's only got 260 health. Game over. Of course, after the first round, you'll still have to deal with the insanity, but no plan is perfect.

Only three of them managed to act before insanity kicked in, so 3*24 max. They did'n have a horde of 8 level guys.



Frankly, the only thing they could have done would be copypasting Elminster's stat block into O-Chuls. Besides that? Nothing, it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Mummy king]

1) I didn't say it was a perfect plan, or even a possible plan, but it was a plan nonetheless.

2) Liches don't have SR

[Falkus]

lack of casters to put it up,

Obviously not, since they have anti magic fields in the prison.


suspiciously costly

If they can afford them in the prison, they can afford them in the room with the item that can end the world.


makes magic in the throne room impossible while they usually summon angels for trials there

Hold the trials elsewhere then. I think that protecting the world from destruction takes precedence over holding trials in the throne room.

[jindra34]

Hold the trials elsewhere then. I think that protecting the world from destruction takes precedence over holding trials in the throne room.

Then you clearly do not understand middle-ages Asian politics... during that time period rulers Always issued decrees, judgements, and what not from the throne... to do so elsewhere would render the statement without formal authority.

[happyturtle]

Good thing they got a MONTHS notice to Xykon's invasion... they did not have enough time to do all that...

Shojo did have months. He knew the gate was in danger from Xykon as far back as strip 120. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Surely he was not foolish enough to wait for Xykon to be at his gates to start preparing.

[Varachan]

Since silence is so grotesquely overpowered, use that!

Have all of those low-level clerics cast silence on a tanglefoot bag each and give them to archer-types spread around the room. Then, when Xykon shows up, glue him, then holy water the hell out of him. That'll get through DR.

Glyph of Warding (shatter) on the sapphire should have been cast, as a final failsafe...

[taraxia]

Shojo did have months. He knew the gate was in danger from Xykon as far back as strip 120. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Surely he was not foolish enough to wait for Xykon to be at his gates to start preparing.

Like everyone else, he had no idea that Xykon had stumbled on a massive army of hobgoblins and was planning to attack Azure City first rather than Girard's Gate or Kraagor's Gate. He probably also would've handled the situation with the nobles better, rather than simply allowing most of AC's wealth and high-level non-Paladins to flee the city. And he probably didn't plan on his highest-level Paladin falling and his super-high-level Wizard getting eaten by a bird.

The original plan -- send the OotS to stop Xykon while Xykon is trying to take over Girard's Gate -- would've been a great plan had their assumptions been correct.

[Hurkyl]

Shojo did have months. He knew the gate was in danger from Xykon as far back as strip 120. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Surely he was not foolish enough to wait for Xykon to be at his gates to start preparing.
Months ago, he thought the threat was that of a lich and a cleric, not a lich, cleric, and forty-odd legions of hobgoblins.

[Finwe]

Frankly, the only thing they could have done would be copypasting Elminster's stat block into O-Chuls. Besides that? Nothing, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Firtly, eagle's splendor is not too high level for their casters: it's the same level as AMF. Secondly, Xykon did NOT fly while in the throne room: he stood on the floor. Thirdly, he doesn't have spell resistance. Fourthly, he only paralyzes those who he hits with his touch attack, not everyone who touches him. Fifthly, even if the paladins are only sixth level, that's still 216 damage from lay on hands. Again, it's not a perfect plan, and its certainly not guaranteed to destroy Xykon, but it would have been more effective than what they did.



I stand corrected on the Lich's DR though. Didn't notice it was a supernatural ability. In that case, creating an AMF in the throne room could have been a good idea, albeit a little impractical.

[Irbis]

2) Liches don't have SR

There are any number of spells, either Redcloak's or Xykon's would have access to that would have granted him high SR, immunity to spells level 1-4, immunity to spells with combined levels of 14 etc. :smallsigh:

[Irbis]

Months ago, he thought the threat was that of a lich and a cleric, not a lich, cleric, and forty-odd legions of hobgoblins.

Did they even know that Xykon is alive? I've recently read Miko's Fall story arc and they all were so shocked when she announced Xykon's alive (well... you know) and kicking; Nope, they didn't have months, they had half-a-day.

[Hurkyl]

Did they even know that Xykon is alive?
Shojo did -- Eugene told him. Roy found out after the trial.

[Dausuul]

Did they even know that Xykon is alive? I've recently read Miko's Fall story arc and they all were so shocked when she announced Xykon's alive (well... you know) and kicking; Nope, they didn't have months, they had half-a-day.

Shojo knew, thanks to Eugene telling him. None of the paladins had a clue until Miko ran into Xykon at the watch tower.

As far as setting AMFs all around the throne room, that's not really such a good idea for long-term defense. You might just as easily have to defend the place against a non-magical threat, in which case you'd be screwing yourself. Suppose Xykon had in fact taken the conventional approach and sent a horde of hobgoblins to seize the gate. If the paladins had to fight in the midst of an AMF, they'd be in a bad way.

(Then, too, it's probably really expensive and time-consuming to lay down a permanent AMF. AFAIK, there are no rules for doing that. Permanency doesn't work on AMF. It's entirely possible that the anti-magic area in the dungeons is the result of a naturally-occurring dead magic zone and not the work of AC casters at all.)

Casting AMF during the battle... who would cast it? With Shojo's pet wizard dead and most of the other high-level folks fled with the nobles, V is probably the only person in all of Azure City who can cast 6th-level arcane spells. Add to that the fact that AMF is centered on the caster, moves with the caster, and has a radius of ten feet, and it starts to look a lot less appealing as a defensive tactic.

And dispelling--good luck with that. You need an 11th-level caster to have even a chance of success against a 20th-level enemy; even then, they'd have to roll 19-20; and dispel magic doesn't work on insanity anyhow.

I agree that rushing Xykon with lay on hands the moment he hit the ground would have been a good idea. Unfortunately, it wouldn't really have helped; you can't ready a charge, and you can't charge with lay on hands anyhow. Assuming he used his move action to land and then his standard action to toss the ball, that's Game Over right there.

The one thing I can think of that would be a really good idea here--and it could well have happened, we won't know until Xykon takes a closer look--would be for a certain elf to write some little tiny letters on the sapphire saying:

I prepared explosive runes this morning.

It probably wouldn't take out Xykon, but it sure would take out the gate.

[Irbis]

Firtly, eagle's splendor is not too high level for their casters: it's the same level as AMF.

For all we know, that might have been cast by mr-bird-eaten-wizard; Prove that someone else (except V) could have cast that.

Secondly, Xykon did NOT fly while in the throne room: he stood on the floor.

Yep, because he choose to land to give them false hope. He still has that overland spell active.

Thirdly, he doesn't have spell resistance.

Excuse me? Why? He could have an entire arsenal of magic-busting buff on him. Look one post higher.

Fourthly, he only paralyses those who he hits with his touch attack, not everyone who touches him.

I'm pretty sure that would have worked both ways, just like gaze effects, where it doesn't matter whatever you look at something, or it looks at you. Otherwise, PT would be one intelligent spell.

Fifthly, even if the paladins are only sixth level, that's still 216 damage from lay on hands.

From six paladins, of which only three managed to win initiative? Besides, they were mostly multiclassed; there might not been not even one guy with 6 pally levels. They weren't stupid, they haven't LoH him for a reason - either because of paralyse thing or because their pal/war or pal/monk build made them far more effective at hacking at him than LoH him. Besides, if the first three managed to damage him next thing X would've made would be flying up and bombarding their most powerful group beneath him with a MS, not plying stupid and pretending they managed to fizzle his spell.



Meh, 10 character limit.

[Irbis]

Shojo did -- Eugene told him. Roy found out after the trial.

Well, I looked that strip up and It might been shock at her words about his army, not about Xykon. Okay, but still, Shojo had his wizard eaten almost immediately after the tral, when they went to Cliffport, and without him there were not much in the category of pernament spell they could do with their remaining wizards. Anyone would have noticed turning throne room into a bunker with less finesse methods and said lich in disguise wouldn't have to search for a gate when he would finally slip into a city.

It makes me wonder, though, because in that case it would have make sense to made a decoy - a bunker with most possible damage withstanding wall, with wards, troops etc so said lich would have walked into a trap. In the context of a coming battle that would waste their resources, but if they put paladins in there, leaving throne room undefended...?

Nah, wouldn't worked, Miko screwed things up.

[happyturtle]

Months ago, he thought the threat was that of a lich and a cleric, not a lich, cleric, and forty-odd legions of hobgoblins.

Yes, and said lich was the one who just wiped out the SG. So my point stands. Shojo should have been using the time Miko was tracking down the Order and dragging them back in chains to prepare for Xykon to attack. He didn't have to wait until the Order arrived.

[jindra34]

Yes, and said lich was the one who just wiped out the SG. So my point stands. Shojo should have been using the time Miko was tracking down the Order and dragging them back in chains to prepare for Xykon to attack. He didn't have to wait until the Order arrived.

Excpet that would have done a whole lot of revelatory stuff... like explaining the secret to half the city... and making the gate's primary defense (very few people nknow where it is) pointless as any uber heavily fortified thing will attarct a lot of attention from not so nice people...

[Falkus]

As far as setting AMFs all around the throne room, that's not really such a good idea for long-term defense. You might just as easily have to defend the place against a non-magical threat, in which case you'd be screwing yourself. Suppose Xykon had in fact taken the conventional approach and sent a horde of hobgoblins to seize the gate. If the paladins had to fight in the midst of an AMF, they'd be in a bad way.

That's what the army in the city is for. If the horde of hobgoblins can actually get to the throne room, then odds are the battles already lost.

[Ubiq]

One problem I see with just about any possible action the Sapphire Guard could take is that Xykon inspected the situation from outside the window before going in.

If the situation seemed to be too dangerous, he has numerous options besides going inside.

1. He can go help Tsukiko kill and raise as many people as possible and then flood the throne room with undead. Those warhammers and maces that people have suggested wouldn't be so handy then, would they? As a bonus, he could have Tsukiko send then in through the main door right after he tosses Crazy Happy Super Fun Ball in through the window.

2. He can go to the main wall and do the same thing there instead of helping Tsukiko.

3. He could just huck the ball into the room anyway and enjoy the show from outside, though that risks the chance that somebody will destroy the Gate.

4. He could go out onto the field and help his "brothers" breach the wall.

5. He could just go back to Redcloak and wait.

As far as Xykon being buffed goes... well, couldn't he have had both Redcloak and the huecava do that before he set out on the dragon earlier?

[Nahmer]

It wouldn't have saved them, but it would have been a good idea to have someone (Durkon if none of the SG clerics can cast 6th levels spells) to have cast Forbidence around the Throne before the battle started.
(You wouldn't normally have forbiddence on it because it would look pretty bad if some innocent non-lawful-good person inexplicably died when approaching the throne).

That 6 or 12d6 damage (though he would have made his will save) certainly wouldn't have destroyed Xykon, but it would have moderately incovenienced him (he probably has around 130 base hit points)

Similarly, the throne room should have been Hallowed, with a Death Ward spell attached to it. Again, it wouldn't have saved the SG (well, except for the air-walking cleric), but it's the kind of thing you want up when dealing with a high level caster who can probably wipe out the entire SG with one Wail of the Banshee or two/three castings of Circle of Death.

Again, I stress that none of that would have saved them from Xykon, but they would have been smart preparations.

Remember that Hinjo is the second most powerful paladin of the Saphire Guard and he's between 6th (the Dire wolf mount) and 10th level (doesn't have three iterative attacks), so the third best paladin (probably O-Chul) is somewhere between 5th and 9th. It's certainly no surpise that he failed his save against the paralyzing lich touch - even if Xykon had to use the elite array his starting Charisma would have been 15 + 5 for 20 levels + 2 for being a Lich, giving a minimum Charisma of 22 ((he's the BBEG so his Charisma is probably closer to 30) for a save DC of 10 + 10 (1/12 HD) + 6 (min Cha) = 26 (though it's probably 30). The save DC on the symbol of Insanity is 18 + Cha, so it's at least 24 and probably 28. If the average paladin was 6th level (and they were proably lower), they'd have (assuming Con, Wis, and Cha of 14) a will save of 6, giving them only a 15% or 5% chance of saving (considering how at least 3 SG memebers saved, that's reasonable).

Of course, I'm not as creative as Xykon - I would have just used the Excellent Prismatic Spray (the few who survived the too-high DC of the various sprays would have automatically been blind). Acid Fog would have worked almost as well, reducing their movement to almost nothing and killing them with acid damage (Xykon probably doesn't have the patience to slowly kill them, though). Cloudkill would have done wonders as well. If I were going to use enchantment I would have just used mass suggestion or mass hold person to render the SG helpless.

Heck, the SG would have been equally doomed if Redcloak had air-walked in: one Blasphemy and you've got a room full of dead or paralyzed NPCs

[Hurkyl]

Yes, and said lich was the one who just wiped out the SG.
While their strongest fighter is in jail, the OotS, Hinjo, and all of the guard's clerics and arcane casters attending to the battle, their support from the nobles lurking in the shadows waiting for a power vacuum, and other possible reinformcements too far away to recall.
(#413 and #414)

[happyturtle]

Excpet that would have done a whole lot of revelatory stuff... like explaining the secret to half the city... and making the gate's primary defense (very few people nknow where it is) pointless as any uber heavily fortified thing will attarct a lot of attention from not so nice people...


'Mr Scruffy is afraid of getting skin cancer and wants the windows bricked up. And he needs more antioxidants in his diet.'

As long as he mixed up the useful preparations with nonsensical stuff, he would have gotten away with it. He already had the whole city convinced he was insane, and no one suspected for years.

[Poppatomus]

'Mr Scruffy is afraid of getting skin cancer and wants the windows bricked up. And he needs more antioxidants in his diet.'

As long as he mixed up the useful preparations with nonsensical stuff, he would have gotten away with it. He already had the whole city convinced he was insane, and no one suspected for years.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the cost. Could you trust that the guy you handed 1,000,000 GP to to build a trap for a 16+ level character to actually build that trap if you told him it was for your cat's amusement? even if you could trust the paladin you gave the money to, could you trust the caster?) could you trust that you wouldn't just be removed for gross incompetence?

because the fact is that the reason the defenses they have are so ineffective is not just bad planning and not just the confluence of several unexpected events, its the sheer power of the enemy. My building is pretty well protected, but if you came in with a squad of special forces guys my dead lock and RFID key would count for about 0.

40 low-mid level paladins, even without shojo, the nobles, miko, and the oots would have been more than enough against, say a level 14 lich. or a bunch of vampires. But they're facing a guy where, if he wanted to, he could banshee screamed half of them to death, and mass teleported the other half into the ocean. I doubt they expected to face someone who could fly right in through the window, alone, and still be a threat.

There may be traps still left to be uncovered that would have an effect, but I would expect them to be much closer to the gem, to avoid being noticed/triggered accidently.

[happyturtle]

I'm not saying there's anything Shojo or the SG could have done would have made it possible to defeat Xykon. I don't know 3.5 rules, but enough people who do say that the level differential guaranteed Xykon's success. What I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense story-wise for the gate to be so poorly protected. The Sapphire Guard's entire existence is for the purpose of protecting the gate, and they've had three generations to prepare. If the only preparation turns out to be keeping it a secret, I'll be very disappointed in The Giant for leaving such a huge plot hole.

[Finwe]

'Mr Scruffy is afraid of getting skin cancer and wants the windows bricked up. And he needs more antioxidants in his diet.'

As long as he mixed up the useful preparations with nonsensical stuff, he would have gotten away with it. He already had the whole city convinced he was insane, and no one suspected for years.

The only reason that he was not deposed by the nobles was that they thought he was senile, and they were able to convince him to do things their way (or that a rival noble had succeeded in swaying Shojo the other way). Had he started to act in a way that seemed too autonomous, the nobles would have found a way to depose him.






Meh, 10 character limit.

When you want to quote someone, please close the quote tag, reply, and reopen the quote tag instead of writing your responses in red. It makes it much harder to reply.


Anyways:

1. A cleric was able to cast resurrection, a 7th level spell. Mass eagle's splendor is on the cleric spell list. (although come to think of it, he isn't seen in the throne room. He's probably somewhere else right now).

2. He landed. The fact that he had the ability to fly is irrelavent, because Xykon decided to land.

3. Given that he's anticipating a room full of paladins, I doubt that he would cast a great deal of anti-magic buffs, especially when they all have a relatively low duration. Even if he does, the spellcasters are not the major factor in damage done - lay on hands it.

No, it does not work both ways. Read the SRD - it only applies when the Lich's touch attack successfully hits.


Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

4. What evidence, if any, do you have that any of the paladins are multi-classed? The only reason that Miko is a monk/paladin is that she was raised in a monastery before joining the guard. Also, they DID fizzle his spell - he wasn't pretending. And 3 guys with five paladin levels is 60 damage - much more than they could possibly have done with their meelee attacks.

[Munchkin Mensch]

It's been awhile since I ran a 3.5 game, and my players were far better at pushing the rules to their limit, so I hope they'll offer some good ideas. In the mean time, here are two ideas to get things started.

1) Have a 7th level cleric cast "Lesser Planar Ally" to summon Parson from Erfworld, and let him figure out what to do. (Sorry, the joke had to be made.)

2) Gate in a Solar. A scroll of gate costs 8.825 gp (=25*9*17+5*1000), which is the price of a decent magic sword, for those of you who don't know the 3.5 rules. A 6th level cleric with Owl's Wisdom has a wisdom of 19 (=14base +1level +4spell), so he has a 45% chance of successfully casting the scroll, but no chance of scroll mishap, so he can keep trying until he succeeds. A Solar will typically charge 22,000gp (=22 HD * 1000gp/HD for a few days work) and should make short work of Xykon (commune to locate, fly/invisible to appoach, surprise round: dimensional anchor from 150', reserve greater dispel magic to stop Xykon from doing anything, use dancing sword to kill in 2 rounds).

The Sapphire Guild has previously summoned Angels (ie, the trial), and 30,000gp isn't a huge amount of money for a city (about the cost of a new tower in the city wall). They should have kept a couple Gate scrolls around for emergencies since the time of Soon.

Anyone have a cheaper plan?

[ZeroNumerous]

Yes. One scroll of Planar Ally. Summon a Trumpet Archon. Trumpet Archon casts Planar Ally. He summons a Trumpet Archon. Trumpet Archon #2 repeats #1's action. #3 keeps the cycle going. They begin this the round the war starts. By the end (assuming it has been about 30 minutes) they have 30 trumpet archons. The trumpet archons gang up on Xykon while he's in the air.

Since you can normally have 8 characters in all the squares around a character, you gain 9 more for the squares within five feet above and below Xykon. They all cast Heal beforehand, but don't discharge the spell.

They all teleport in, surrounding Xykon in a cube. They immediate hit him with their held-charge Heal. 26*120=One dead Xykon. Evil isn't the only one who can bend the rules.

Scroll of Planar Ally: 2700 gold.
Cleric Level needed to cast it: 12(Sangwaan could have easily done so).
Owning an rule-exploiting Lich with an exploited rule: Priceless.

[Poppatomus]

Yes. One scroll of Planar Ally. Summon a Trumpet Archon. Trumpet Archon casts Planar Ally. He summons a Trumpet Archon. Trumpet Archon #2 repeats #1's action. #3 keeps the cycle going. They begin this the round the war starts. By the end (assuming it has been about 30 minutes) they have 30 trumpet archons. The trumpet archons gang up on Xykon while he's in the air.



pretty sure that a summoned creature can't itself summon (not the scroll-summoned guy, the creature summoned guy) exactly to prevent that. I know that's how it works with demons.

[jindra34]

Poppatumus ye just quad-posted...

[Poppatomus]

Yea, sorry about that. computer finally loaded the page so I could Fix it now though.

[Munchkin Mensch]

I think there's a number of problems.

First, I don't think Trumpet Archons have an inate summon ability
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersA.html#trumpet-archon
and they can't be summoned by any Summon Monster spell, so I don't see how they would summon each other. Even if they did, I think Poppatomus is correct that summoned creatures can't summon more (can some one check that?).

If you want to have each Archon use Planar Ally, there's some other problems. You need to pay each Archon ally 6,000 gp (24HD *500 gp/HD) to stay for a few hours. The casting time is 10 minutes, so they do need to stick around that long, and Planar Ally isn't a standard Archon spell, so you'd need to wait some time for them to pray for new spells. Also, the spell takes 250xp, so you should probably be paying them another 1,250gp (5gp/xp*250xp) for casting the spell. Roughly speaking, each Archon is costing you 7000gp, so you're spending over 60,000gp just to get them.

[Munchkin Mensch]

That shoud have been 6000gp =12HD*500gp/HD for the calculation on the price of hiring Archons with Planar Ally.

[Ubiq]

Had he started to act in a way that seemed too autonomous, the nobles would have found a way to depose him.


Any open attempt to increase defenses for the throne room likely would have been perceived by the nobles as a preemptive move against them. Of course, Shojo could always try explaining the situation, but that would get him assassinated by nobles wanting to control the Gate for their own purposes.


1. A cleric was able to cast resurrection, a 7th level spell. Mass eagle's splendor is on the cleric spell list. (although come to think of it, he isn't seen in the throne room. He's probably somewhere else right now).

Wasn't that cleric one of the people that Xykon nuked before talking to Tsukiko? Or was it just somebody that looked exactly like him?


2. He landed. The fact that he had the ability to fly is irrelavent, because Xykon decided to land.

The only reason he landed was because he didn't view them as a threat. Unless he's completely and totally unable to perceive magic used by others (which he may well be, I'm not familiar with the rules after all), he wouldn't land and put himself at more risk than necessary.