Monk/Rogue

[keeper2161]

I have a monk/rogue that I would like to see what everyone thought of it. It is a level 6 shadow monk and a level 2 rogue. I plan to go the rest in rogue and choose the assassin subclass. The purpose of the six monk dip is for shadow step. The character is a halfling and my dm has ruled that shadows are considered dim light. It's nice to be able to zip around in people's shadows sneak attacking them even though no ally is near them. The unarmed defense is nice plus the extra attack and the life saving stunning attack. I do lose out on 3d6 of sneak attack, slippery mind, elusive, stroke of luck, and the assassin cap stone ability death strike. I use a short sword because a short sword is a monk weapon and it can be enchanted while my fists can't be.

[Ardantis]

That's the best break point for a Shadow Monk/Rogue. You have perpetual advantage under many circumstances from Shadow Step and a host of great stealth-enhancing spells which you can use three times per day. Martial Arts conflicts with Cunning Action, but they each have their own place depending on the tactical circumstance.

Not sure I would go Assassin, though. It's just not my favorite Rogue archetype.

[ZenBear]

You could also just take 3 levels of Rogue for Assassinate and the rest in Shadow Monk. Less bursty without SA but lots of other perks from Monk. Depends on your character. What is their background? How/Why did they become a monk? What led them down the Path of Shadow? Is the dip into Rogue a fall into temptation straying from the disciplined lifestyle of a true Monk? Try to have a good reason for your class choices, not just gamey ones.

[keeper2161]

She was an urchin living on the street. Never having money she learned to fight with her fists. The purpose for the rogue is the sneak attack.

[Naanomi]

Consider 2-3 levels in Warlock as a possibility for some 'forbidden ninja magic'

[keeper2161]

Level 14 rogue I would get blind sense. Plus I don't want to go lower then 7d6 of sneak attack.

[Vogonjeltz]

I have a monk/rogue that I would like to see what everyone thought of it. It is a level 6 shadow monk and a level 2 rogue. I plan to go the rest in rogue and choose the assassin subclass. The purpose of the six monk dip is for shadow step. The character is a halfling and my dm has ruled that shadows are considered dim light. It's nice to be able to zip around in people's shadows sneak attacking them even though no ally is near them. The unarmed defense is nice plus the extra attack and the life saving stunning attack. I do lose out on 3d6 of sneak attack, slippery mind, elusive, stroke of luck, and the assassin cap stone ability death strike. I use a short sword because a short sword is a monk weapon and it can be enchanted while my fists can't be.

I'm not sure that you're getting alot out of monk for what you lose. Martial arts, flurry of blows, patient defense, step of the wind, shadow step and cunning action all compete for the bonus action. Unarmored movement and defense rely on you not wearing armor (as does martial arts).

Actually, that is problematic. If you don't have a friendly threatening the target you won't be able to apply sneak attack damage, because there's no way for you to hide, shadow step, and attack on the same turn. It seems like this would divide your attack output into every two rounds.

[ssandulak]

Well another way to sneak attack is to have advantage, so shadow step to target, attack, sneak attack gets applied. It actually provides you with a really easy way to get advantage, plus an amazing escape/mobility tool. Cunning action is also really nice to have for a monk since you can disengage without the ki point cost (though that's only going to come up if you don't want to shadow step away for some reason).

You do have a lot of things competing for your bonus action, but most of them just give you more options, which isn't really a bad thing imo.

[MeeposFire]

Remember bonus actions for the rogue typcially involve variations of a few themes.

1. Get SA on your attack.

2. Get yourself out of dodge so you can live.

3. Get an extra attack so you have an extra shot at SA damage (two weapon fighting is common for this).


The rogue/monk does have a lot of options for his bonus action but most of the new options are superior to normal rogue options (though of course with a cost).

He can get advantage on an attack just by shadow stepping which is an at will ability. That is point one. In addition he gets 2 attacks per attack action this is a nice way of getting option 3 WITHOUT using your bonus action. In terms of survival the monk can shadow step or use his standard rogue options.

Martial arts do not really come up in this. Martial arts (or flurry) will not activate SA (unless your DM decides to rule otherwise for fun reasons) an thus you would only use it on rounds where you already got SA damage applied, you did not need to run away, you did not shadow step, and you just want to add basic damage. In this way it is just an additional option that is situationally useful. This is nice because it means the monk will always have an effective use for his bonus action even if just for more than normal damage.

[Ardantis]

Martial arts also adds Dex mod to damage, so it does more additional damage than dual wielding.

[DracoKnight]

I use a short sword because a short sword is a monk weapon and it can be enchanted while my fists can't be.


Level 6: Ki-Empowered Strikes: Your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purposes of over coming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage.

You don't need to enchant them.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well another way to sneak attack is to have advantage, so shadow step to target, attack, sneak attack gets applied. It actually provides you with a really easy way to get advantage, plus an amazing escape/mobility tool. Cunning action is also really nice to have for a monk since you can disengage without the ki point cost (though that's only going to come up if you don't want to shadow step away for some reason).

You do have a lot of things competing for your bonus action, but most of them just give you more options, which isn't really a bad thing imo.

True, you just have to make sure that you use dim-light, or can see in darkness otherwise being blinded negates the advantage.

Options can be nice, but when your optimal synergy abilities basically rule out the other options, they might as well not exist. Having those as your primary benefits at several levels makes the levels less valuable in comparison to the levels you could have taken instead. The monk levels don't really benefit the rogue abilities, and the rogue levels don't really benefit the monk abilities. There's not alot of synergy there, is what I'm getting at.

[. Shadowblade .]

True, you just have to make sure that you use dim-light, or can see in darkness otherwise being blinded negates the advantage.
+

what about to take 2 levels of Warlock (Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight) ?
for the cost of 1D6 of sneak dmg we could also take race without darkvision (in default config. ;) and kill in globe of Darkness spell ...

[ZenBear]

You don't need to enchant them.

Enchanted weapons can get up to +3 to attack and damage rolls along with other riders like Flametongue, Vorpal, etc. Until you get a BA weapon your fists do fine, though.

[BladedWizard]

You could ask your DM if he can allow you to use the "Way of Shadow" monk subclass as a rogue subclass. I've seen this done on this forum before. You go full rogue but flavor in the Shadow Monk subclass instead of the other. Your DM will need to come up with a mechanic to replace the ki needed to use the shadow monk abilities.

My 2 cents.

[. Shadowblade .]

You could ask your DM if he can allow you to use the "Way of Shadow" monk subclass as a rogue subclass. I've seen this done on this forum before. You go full rogue but flavor in the Shadow Monk subclass instead of the other. Your DM will need to come up with a mechanic to replace the ki needed to use the shadow monk abilities.

My 2 cents.

that sounds like good old ninja from The Complete Ninja's Handbook I would like to play (Sneak & Backstab). I like the "Way of Shadow" (Monk) :



"These monks might be called ninjas or shadowdancers. and they serve as spies and assassins."


but I miss the Sneak Attack ability (Rogue) here - especially Shadow Step calls to be followed-up by Sneak attack. I would even sacrifice the Extra Attack or Shadow Arts for it ...

[Citan]

that sounds like good old ninja from The Complete Ninja's Handbook I would like to play (Sneak & Backstab). I like the "Way of Shadow" (Monk) :



but I miss the Sneak Attack ability (Rogue) here - especially Shadow Step calls to be followed-up by Sneak attack. I would even sacrifice the Extra Attack or Shadow Arts for it ...
Maybe my homebrew Prestige Achievements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434253-New-mechanic-Prestige-achievements) will interest you. I designed something specific for Monk/Rogue dual-class to allow it to use Sneak Attack with fists (it's as a matter of fact precisely what I propose: sacrifice second attack to apply SA instead). :)

[PoeticDwarf]

I have a monk/rogue that I would like to see what everyone thought of it. It is a level 6 shadow monk and a level 2 rogue. I plan to go the rest in rogue and choose the assassin subclass. The purpose of the six monk dip is for shadow step. The character is a halfling and my dm has ruled that shadows are considered dim light. It's nice to be able to zip around in people's shadows sneak attacking them even though no ally is near them. The unarmed defense is nice plus the extra attack and the life saving stunning attack. I do lose out on 3d6 of sneak attack, slippery mind, elusive, stroke of luck, and the assassin cap stone ability death strike. I use a short sword because a short sword is a monk weapon and it can be enchanted while my fists can't be.

It's cool, a rogue/monk is very and if I say very I mean very, mobile. Not bad damage but tanky in his own way, cool.

[. Shadowblade .]

Maybe my homebrew Prestige Achievements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434253-New-mechanic-Prestige-achievements) will interest you. I designed something specific for Monk/Rogue dual-class to allow it to use Sneak Attack with fists (it's as a matter of fact precisely what I propose: sacrifice second attack to apply SA instead). :)

well, I was meaning to have just single class - Ninja aka "The way of Shadow" Monk - which would have the same Sneak Attack feature just like Rogue, so we dont have to multiclass to Rogue to get SA

[MaxWilson]

True, you just have to make sure that you use dim-light, or can see in darkness otherwise being blinded negates the advantage.

All Shadow Monks can see in (non-magical) Darkness, thanks to the no-concentration 8-hours-long Darkvision spell that they can cast for 2 ki points starting at level 3.

[CNagy]

First and foremost: Assassin's usefulness depends entirely on how giving your DM is in regards to surprise rounds.
Next: Unless your DM has house-ruled that Blind Sense is a Daredevil-esque Blind Sight, then it isn't worth the level. Blind Sense as written is an awful ability. At ultra short range, it just lets you know the location of creatures that are invisible or hidden. You could do that (out to a further range) with a Perception check. Which should have Expertise. And you've got Reliable Talent. And as a multiclass Monk, your Wisdom modifier is at least +1, but as high as +5. So at the same level that you get Blind Sense, your passive Perception should be 21-25, enough to automatically pass a Hard check and maybe a Very Hard check. Your active Perception is 21/25-31/35, a fair shot at passing a "nearly impossible" check.

So opinion for a better build would be to drop 2 more levels of Rogue, and go 12 Rogue/8 Monk. You do double up on Evasion, which is a shame, but you get Stillness of Mind (and with it the ability to use an action to end a charm or frighten effect against you, both conditions that can shut your character down in combat.) You lose an extra 1d6 damage most rounds from a slightly lower Sneak Attack, but you gain an extra ASI/feat (for a total of 6) and 2 extra Ki points.

My other suggestion is a bit further out, but I wouldn't take the Assassin archetype. There are two general Assassin builds that work really well and the Assassin Shadow Monk isn't one of them. Don't get me wrong, it plays competently enough but I've put enough miles on one to know that the very thing that makes it cool is what holds it back: Shadow Step doesn't work well with Assassinate.

--Shadow Step gives you advantage; this is good. But you're already getting advantage against any target that meets Assassinate's conditions. So Shadow Step's advantage becomes redundant.
--Shadow Step is a bonus action teleport; this is amazing. But Assassinate only works in the surprise round, and on a Monk that bonus action can be turned into 2 unarmed attacks that if hit are automatic criticals, can be used for stuns, and (on a different Monk) can knock opponents down, away, or rob them of their reactions. So Shadow Step's cost becomes magnified because bonus actions are a lot more valuable to an Assassin during a surprise round. In the worst case scenario, that bonus action could be a death dealer: you miss with your first shortsword attack, so you draw a dagger into your offhand and make your second shortsword attack. You miss again but now you've triggered two weapon fighting, so you have one last chance to trigger Assassinate with your offhand dagger attack.

That said, the Assassin's ability is a purely mechanical one, so losing it changes the numbers but not the concept. Any Rogue could look like a Shadow Assassin teleporting around and stabbing people. The actual Assassin just does it better during the surprise round. The other Rogue archetypes work better all the time, and personally I think the Arcane Trickster works the best; the Thief is nice but unless you are trying to play Batman, the Rogue/Monk already has a lot of things competing for his bonus action. The Arcane Trickster gives you cantrips and a half-dozen or so spell slots. You can avoid MADness by leaving your Int score low and choosing spells that work without saving throws. Or you can get whatever 1st or 2nd level spell you want at 8th level and just devote your slots to that--a Rogue/Monk who can use Shield half a dozen times a day? Why not?

[. Shadowblade .]

@CNagy - imho the Lvl6 Shadow monk has superior mobility/surprise advantage thanks to Shadow step over the Rogue. Monk/Assassin can teleport and backstab his victims and has higher chance to assassinate them with first SA (Assassinate/critical dmg) - dead cant talk and alert their still unsuspecting friends so Assassin can go kill them stealthily too. Shadow step could be used for passing security and enemy defence lines / bodyguards and going directly for eliminating the key enemy targets or swiftly pass terrain obstacles - it is definitely much more difficult to stop such Shadow monk than Rogue...