Metallic Dragons!

[ImSAMazing]

So I am playing a Wizard and I have a (great) plan. Our party is almost lvl 17, and my plan is to True Polymorph into an Adult Gold Dragon. I should be able to blend in with the party since I can change shape into Humanoids and Beasts. I do have a question, the feature that lets you change into a Humanoid/Beast(as stated in each Metallic dragons actions part) says you retain your allignment and mental scores, but otherwise gives you all the features of your new form EXCEPT class features. Do you find the Spellcasting feature of an Archmage a class feature? I don't think so, since Spellcasting is a feature you can get by a class, but I dont think that line is the purpose for that. What do you guys think, opinions? Idea's?

[Demonic Spoon]

The archmage is an NPC; it does not have a class, so no.

The real question is whether change shape transforms you into a specific statblock (e.g. Archmage) or a generic example of that race (e.g. human) - one might argue that being an archmage is less about the form you inhabit and more about knowledge.


Personally, I'd do neither, and houserule TP's permanent effects.

[ImSAMazing]

The archmage is an NPC; it does not have a class, so no.

The real question is whether change shape transforms you into a specific statblock (e.g. Archmage) or a generic example of that race (e.g. human) - one might argue that being an archmage is less about the form you inhabit and more about knowledge.


Personally, I'd do neither, and houserule TP's permanent effects.

I'd say a NPC counts as a Monster, monster clarification in the MM:


WHAT Is A MoNSTER?
A monster is defined as any creature that can be
interacted with and potentially fought and killed. Even
something as harmless as a frog or as benevolent as
a unicorn is a monster by this definition. The term
also applies to humans, elves, dwarves, and other
civilized folk who might be friends or rivals to the player
characters.

I think RAI is ment that a Metallic Dragon can Shapechange into someone with Spellcasting, so I think thats what I'd rule.

[bardo]

So I am playing a Wizard and I have a (great) plan. Our party is almost lvl 17, and my plan is to True Polymorph into an Adult Gold Dragon. I should be able to blend in with the party since I can change shape into Humanoids and Beasts. I do have a question, the feature that lets you change into a Humanoid/Beast(as stated in each Metallic dragons actions part) says you retain your allignment and mental scores, but otherwise gives you all the features of your new form EXCEPT class features. Do you find the Spellcasting feature of an Archmage a class feature? I don't think so, since Spellcasting is a feature you can get by a class, but I dont think that line is the purpose for that. What do you guys think, opinions? Idea's?

From True Polymorph, creature-to-creature transformation: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form". After you do this, you are no longer a wizard, you are an adult gold dragon. You got the same personality, alignment, memories, values, and friends as before, but you ARE an adult gold dragon. With all the capabilities of an adult red dragon and none of the capabilities of the wizard you were before.

An adult red dragon can't shape-change into a level 17 wizard. Dragon shape-changing says: "Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form." Spell-casting is a class feature. You can shape-change to look like the wizard you were before, but you won't be a wizard, you're still an adult red dragon with INT 16 and no spell casting abilities. Is this really what you want?

I try not to think of polymorph as "target turns into a beast", but in terms of "target become trapped in a beast's body". I think it better describes the spell's actual effects (which are quite different from previous editions).

In any case, remember to take off all your magical items before you True Polymorph. You don't want them to become permanently melded into the dragon's body and therefore useless. Have a friend keep them safe, so you can don them when shape-changed into a humanoid.

Bardo.

[ImSAMazing]

From True Polymorph, creature-to-creature transformation: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form". After you do this, you are no longer a wizard, you are an adult gold dragon. You got the same personality, alignment, memories, values, and friends as before, but you ARE an adult gold dragon. With all the capabilities of an adult red dragon and none of the capabilities of the wizard you were before.

An adult red dragon can't shape-change into a level 17 wizard. Dragon shape-changing says: "Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form." Spell-casting is a class feature. You can shape-change to look like the wizard you were before, but you won't be a wizard, you're still an adult red dragon with INT 16 and no spell casting abilities. Is this really what you want?

I try not to think of polymorph as "target turns into a beast", but in terms of "target become trapped in a beast's body". I think it better describes the spell's actual effects (which are quite different from previous editions).

In any case, remember to take off all your magical items before you True Polymorph. You don't want them to become permanently melded into the dragon's body and therefore useless. Have a friend keep them safe, so you can don them when shape-changed into a humanoid.

Bardo.

Archmage is CR 12. It has the Spellcasting feature, but that isn't exactly a Class feature. I would count Martial Arts as a class feature, not something universal as Spellcasting.

[Demonic Spoon]

I'd say a NPC counts as a Monster, monster clarification in the MM:


I don't disagree with you from a RAW perspective, but from a RAW perspective you can also turn rocks into legendary magic items. TP is unbelievably broken in a lot of ways if you take a strict RAW perspective so I was arguing what is reasonable and likely RAI. I think it's fair RAI that you don't learn new spells you didn't already know because you changed shape into a guy with a spellbook.

[ImSAMazing]

I don't disagree with you from a RAW perspective, but from a RAW perspective you can also turn rocks into legendary magic items. TP is unbelievably broken in a lot of ways if you take a strict RAW perspective so I was arguing what is reasonable and likely RAI. I think it's fair RAI that you don't learn new spells you didn't already know because you changed shape into a guy with a spellbook.

What do you mean? When you TP into an Adult Gold dragon and then Shapechange(the feature, not the SPELL) into Archmage, you just use the amount of spells available to an Archmage, but you can exchange the spells(it says so in the MM without adjusting CR so...)

[pwykersotz]

What you're asking is technically legal as far as I can tell, but incredibly cheesy. You're basically asking for all of the power with none of the drawbacks that are built into the system. Just like the whole Wish-Simulacrum thing.

I would rule that no, you can't do that, because playing by the exact RAW for cheese is tedious. But if you and your GM want to, more power to you.

[Demonic Spoon]

What do you mean? When you TP into an Adult Gold dragon and then Shapechange(the feature, not the SPELL) into Archmage, you just use the amount of spells available to an Archmage, but you can exchange the spells(it says so in the MM without adjusting CR so...)


Yes, so, narratively, when you transform into the archmage, you somehow learn the arcane knowledge needed to cast whatever spells are appropriate. You somehow learn this knowledge even though the text of change shape says that you basically retain your own mind.

In addition to the fact that it doesn't make any narrative sense whatsoever, it can also be used to break the game in some pretty major ways (given there's no limitation in the number of times you can shift into an archmage and cast its spells). I shouldn't need to spell out why casting one 9th level spell once to to give you access to cast as many 9th level spells as time allows isn't RAI.

[SharkForce]

spellcasting is a class feature. read the spellcasting ability entry in the monster manual, it repeatedly talks about casting the same as a certain class, including class features, etc.

in contrast, innate spellcasting is not a class feature. creatures that have an innate (ie not learned) ability to cast spells have the innate spellcasting ability instead of the spellcasting ability. note that the innate spellcasting ability *explicitly* calls out that this is what creatures that innately cast spells have, so the regular spellcasting ability is not innate, and as such must be learned, and is a class ability.

unfortunately for the abilities that use language about class features, very few abilities are specifically noted as being class features. for example, i suspect most people on the forums would agree that the hobgoblin captain and warlord (and also knight NPC) ability to inspire their minions is probably a learned ability that should likely count as a class ability, but nothing actually ever indicates that it is. likewise, most extra attack abilities that don't relate to natural attacks should probably be class abilities, as well as most humanoid creature's abilities in general with the exception of a few specific ones (elves, for example, have an innate proficiency with perception). but anyways, i've already had this argument before, and don't feel like having it again; there are things that should work differently, but don't. the only ability of which i am aware that has any indication of explicitly being a class ability is spellcasting. anything else is DM's discretion.

(note that true polymorph does not use any language about not gaining class features of a creature, and spellcasting definitely *is* part of a creature's statistics, however; that is, the rules do allow you to true polymorph into an archmage and gain the spellcasting class feature, because it has no restrictions on not gaining class abilities, but the gold dragon ability does restrict class abilities. you could, however, turn into a drow and get some free uses of their innate spellcasting).

[ImSAMazing]

What you're asking is technically legal as far as I can tell, but incredibly cheesy. You're basically asking for all of the power with none of the drawbacks that are built into the system. Just like the whole Wish-Simulacrum thing.

I would rule that no, you can't do that, because playing by the exact RAW for cheese is tedious. But if you and your GM want to, more power to you.
Simulacrum can only be used one time I believe,



SIMULACRUM
7th-level illusion
*SNAP*
If you cast this spell again, any currently
active duplicates you created with this spell are
instantly destrayed.


Yes, so, narratively, when you transform into the archmage, you somehow learn the arcane knowledge needed to cast whatever spells are appropriate. You somehow learn this knowledge even though the text of change shape says that you basically retain your own mind.

In addition to the fact that it doesn't make any narrative sense whatsoever, it can also be used to break the game in some pretty major ways (given there's no limitation in the number of times you can shift into an archmage and cast its spells). I shouldn't need to spell out why casting one 9th level spell once to to give you access to cast as many 9th level spells as time allows isn't RAI.
If you shapechange into an Giant Ape you somehow learn the way to fight with your bare hands and still be able to kill people. If you shapechange into a Wolf Spider you learn how to climb surfaces, if you shapechange into an Aarakockra you learn how you can fly. That isn't a good point. I do agree about the spell slot spamming. Every DM should say that you can't spam them. I'd say that you can only use a maximum spell slots(if you obtain them) not higher then a lvl 20 character has. So if you shapechange 10 times into an Archmage, only 1 time you can cast a lvl 9 spell, a lvl 8 spell, 2 times a lvl 6 & lvl 7 spell, 3 times a 2-5 level spell, 4 times a lvl 1 spell and unlimited cantrips.

[1Forge]

yeah I'd rule this transformation would take your spells. Also the dragon community might not appreciate you just jumping into dragon form.

[ImSAMazing]

yeah I'd rule this transformation would take your spells. Also the dragon community might not appreciate you just jumping into dragon form.

Is there a Dragon Community? WOW! And how will they know ;)

[1Forge]

Is there a Dragon Community? WOW! And how will they know ;)

At least in my setting there is, and I'm guessing at least one is peering into a crystal ball, and will find him.

[Shining Wrath]

By RAW, you can TP into anything with a MM entry, subject to the usual limitations about CR. There's nothing by rule that stops using the MM Archmage as a target.

What we don't know, though, is how an Archmage prepares spells. Do they have spell books? There is no mentioned of spell books as treasure, which would be a Big Deal for a party wizard.

Are their spells inherent, like a sorcerer? Then you get a fixed list of spells, and if you want something different than is listed in the MM, you need DM agreement.

Do they choose their spells each day like a cleric, but from the entire wizard list? Then TP into the archmage is probably the most powerful option available.

The mechanism by which an archmage selects and prepares spells is not specified, and therefore must be houseruled by the DM if you choose to do this.

[SharkForce]

i hesitate to point this loop out to imsamazing, but the loop is that your simulacrums cast simulacrum.

it is generally regarded as a broken loophole that no sane DM would allow a player to use, but it is also what the rules say can happen.

[Daishain]

Is there a Dragon Community? WOW! And how will they know ;)
Depends on the setting, but if we're talking about the default FR setting, then yes they do have a community, including governmental bodies.

As to how they'll know, a gold dragon pops up out of nowhere, isn't related to anyone they've ever heard of, and has never been seen before for the thousand or so years of its supposed existence? That's on top of their elders being top notch spellcasters and masters of changing form, not to mention a personal god that takes an active role in their lives. They'll figure it out pretty quick.

[bardo]

Archmage is CR 12. It has the Spellcasting feature, but that isn't exactly a Class feature. I would count Martial Arts as a class feature, not something universal as Spellcasting.

Spellcasting is literally listed as a class feature in the class features tables in chapter 3 in the PHB:
Bard 1st level features: Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration (d6)
Cleric 1st level features: Spellcasting, Divine Domain
Druid 1st level features: Druidic, Spellcasting
Paladin 2nd level features: Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
...
Universal or not, that makes spellcasting a class feature in my book (which is the PHB).

The Archmage description says "Spellcasting. The archmage is an 18th-level spellcaster."
I can't think of what 18th-level could possibly mean other than 18 levels in a class. A class with a spellcasting feature, which a gold dragon would not acquire on shape-change.

I don't see anything, either RAW or RAI that would make me think a gold dragon shape-changing into an Archmage would be able to cast spells. And even if it's house-ruled as allowed, the gold dragon would have an INT score of 16 (+3), lowering the spell attack from +9 to +7, and DC from 17 to 15. No spellbook, only the prepared spells listed in the description, no arcane tradition, and most importantly no ability to gain XP or levels.

Bardo.

[ImSAMazing]

By RAW, you can TP into anything with a MM entry, subject to the usual limitations about CR. There's nothing by rule that stops using the MM Archmage as a target.

What we don't know, though, is how an Archmage prepares spells. Do they have spell books? There is no mentioned of spell books as treasure, which would be a Big Deal for a party wizard.

Are their spells inherent, like a sorcerer? Then you get a fixed list of spells, and if you want something different than is listed in the MM, you need DM agreement.

Do they choose their spells each day like a cleric, but from the entire wizard list? Then TP into the archmage is probably the most powerful option available.

The mechanism by which an archmage selects and prepares spells is not specified, and therefore must be houseruled by the DM if you choose to do this.
True. The MM does say that you can change the spells of Monsters that can cast spells as long as the spell level isn't higher.


i hesitate to point this loop out to imsamazing, but the loop is that your simulacrums cast simulacrum.

it is generally regarded as a broken loophole that no sane DM would allow a player to use, but it is also what the rules say can happen.
True. Forgot about that.


Depends on the setting, but if we're talking about the default FR setting, then yes they do have a community, including governmental bodies.

As to how they'll know, a gold dragon pops up out of nowhere, isn't related to anyone they've ever heard of, and has never been seen before for the thousand or so years of its supposed existence? That's on top of their elders being top notch spellcasters and masters of changing form, not to mention a personal god that takes an active role in their lives. They'll figure it out pretty quick.
If you immediately change into Archmage and cast Mind Blank they wont spot you. And for me, a "top notch spellcaster" is someone with lvl 9 spell slots. A Dragon can only have spells with a level equal to 1/3 their CR(so max of lvl 8 for Ancient Gold & Red)


Spellcasting is literally listed as a class feature in the class features tables in chapter 3 in the PHB:
Bard 1st level features: Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration (d6)
Cleric 1st level features: Spellcasting, Divine Domain
Druid 1st level features: Druidic, Spellcasting
Paladin 2nd level features: Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
...
Universal or not, that makes spellcasting a class feature in my book (which is the PHB).

The Archmage description says "Spellcasting. The archmage is an 18th-level spellcaster."
I can't think of what 18th-level could possibly mean other than 18 levels in a class. A class with a spellcasting feature, which a gold dragon would not acquire on shape-change.

I don't see anything, either RAW or RAI that would make me think a gold dragon shape-changing into an Archmage would be able to cast spells. And even if it's house-ruled as allowed, the gold dragon would have an INT score of 16 (+3), lowering the spell attack from +9 to +7, and DC from 17 to 15. No spellbook, only the prepared spells listed in the description, no arcane tradition, and most importantly no ability to gain XP or levels.

Bardo.
You wont need XP or levels when you are a Dragon. After some time you will turn into an Ancient Dragon and then you wont ever need levels. An Adult Gold Dragon also doesn't need them I think.

[Demonic Spoon]

If you shapechange into an Giant Ape you somehow learn the way to fight with your bare hands and still be able to kill people. If you shapechange into a Wolf Spider you learn how to climb surfaces, if you shapechange into an Aarakockra you learn how you can fly. That isn't a good point. I do agree about the spell slot spamming. Every DM should say that you can't spam them. I'd say that you can only use a maximum spell slots(if you obtain them) not higher then a lvl 20 character has. So if you shapechange 10 times into an Archmage, only 1 time you can cast a lvl 9 spell, a lvl 8 spell, 2 times a lvl 6 & lvl 7 spell, 3 times a 2-5 level spell, 4 times a lvl 1 spell and unlimited cantrips.


Wolf spider climbing, Aarakockra flying, and giant ape punches are much less about knowledge and more about having the right physiology. Regardless, there's a wide gap between "transforming into this animal means you know how to do things any example of this animal knows how to do" and "transforming into a human teaches you to be a powerful wizard capable of casting the most powerful spells".

And none of this changes the fact that you're breaking game balance in a huge way. Spell slot limitations aside, you're still saying that, for the cost of one level 9 spell slot once, you should effectively be able to learn every single wizard spell. That's absurd.


The Archmage description says "Spellcasting. The archmage is an 18th-level spellcaster."
I can't think of what 18th-level could possibly mean other than 18 levels in a class. A class with a spellcasting feature, which a gold dragon would not acquire on shape-change.


If the Archmage had class levels then its statblock should include a whole lot more than it does, such as Arcane Recovery and every other wizard feature he should've gotten from 1 to 18. You say that he has 18 levels in a class, but you're just inferring from the "level" phrasing.

What the "level" phrasing almost certainly is intended to mean is that he is considered 18th level for the purposes of spells and features that depend on the level of the character - cantrip damage being the most obvious one. Without saying what "level" he is, you have no way of telling what the damage should be on his cantrips.

[ImSAMazing]

My tweet to Mike Mearls and Jeremy E Crawford:

@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls can a Gold Dragon(with Shapechange feature) change into an Archmage with the Spellcasting feature?
Answer 1:

@Fred_Kadet @JeremyECrawford in my own campaign, I'd be OK with it.

Answer 2:

@Fred_Kadet @JeremyECrawford shapechange specifically says you don't get class features, but the NPC appendix is kind of shaky on that.

[DivisibleByZero]

The dragon's feature says that you can shapechange into a beast or humanoid.
So the entire thing here is whether an Archmage is an humanoid.
I rule that it is not.
An human is a humanoid. An Elf is an humanoid. An Archmage is a specific person or profession. It's not a creature type, it's a specific example of one kind of creature type. That's like saying that you shapechange into a butcher or an accountant.
You can't do that, because you keep your own mind. You physically become the race or beast that you choose, but the change is only physical. You can become an human, or an elf, or a dwarf, or whatever, but that's where it ends. You get all of the racial features of the choice, but not any that would have come from experience or learning or (virtual) class levels.

You can say that all Archmages are humanoid, but you cannot say that all humanoids are Archmages, therefore Archmage would not be a suitable candidate for the dragon's shapechange (nor would any other specific NPC entry in the MM).

Look at it this way:
If you can shapechange into a specific example of an humanoid, then what's to stop you from using shapechange to become an exact duplicate of the party's druid? I mean, the character that your friend across the table is playing is an humanoid, isn't he?
That's just one example. It's a bit extreme due to the class features clause, but it amounts to the same thing.
Functionally speaking, an Archmage has class levels.

[zinycor]

If you immediately change into Archmage and cast Mind Blank they wont spot you. And for me, a "top notch spellcaster" is someone with lvl 9 spell slots. A Dragon can only have spells with a level equal to 1/3 their CR(so max of lvl 8 for Ancient Gold & Red)


You wont need XP or levels when you are a Dragon. After some time you will turn into an Ancient Dragon and then you wont ever need levels. An Adult Gold Dragon also doesn't need them I think.

Why would you turn into a golden dragon in order to only play only as an Archmage? And i think the dragon himself may only (¿?) have level 8 spells, but he can certainly have a servant with level 9 spells.

Personally, I would not allow it. I would say that true polymorph doesn't allow you to transform into any monster with the ability to shapechange. Or, you would turn into a golden dragon, but a young dragon, which would be appropiate for your age in the game.

Of course, nothing of this is in the book, so your Dm may feel fine with this (which wouldn't be weird, given that you already are lvl 17 and you probably are facing challenges big enough, that this sort of thing wouldn't make a big difference).


EDIT: Having re-read the entry for gold dragon and his ability to shape change, it allows the dragon to transform into a humanoid, but I would understand it as a "normal humanoid" (A humanoid with the stats of a dragon xD), since "Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.", as such, I would understand that the ability to cast spells is a class feature of the archmage, therefore, the dragon (or a wizard who got polymorphed into a dragon) would only have the spellcasting ability appropiate for the dragon he got transformed into, and none of the spellcasting of the archmage, he could have the archamage appearance though.

One more thing, if I were to consider the Archmage as Monster, based o nthe fact that he is on the MM (which I don't), I would transform lvl 12 adventurers into archmage, which I think would be much more powerful.

[ImSAMazing]

Why would you turn into a golden dragon in order to only play only as an Archmage? And i think the dragon himself may only (¿?) have level 8 spells, but he can certainly have a servant with level 9 spells.
Who says that is the reason? Of course it isn't the ONLY reason. Some reasons why EVERY wizard should consider it:

As an Adult Gold Dragon you are more stronger and you still got some spells
You can transform into Humanoids and Beasts, so in combat you can turn into a T-Rex or a Giant Ape
You can transform yourself into a humanoid so nobody will think of you as a dragon which gives a great advantage
As a Dragon you can do even more good and you got a fly speed :D
Lair Actions.
Legendary Actions.
Coolness
Cuz I said it



Personally, I would not allow it. I would say that true polymorph doesn't allow you to transform into any monster with the ability to shapechange. Or, you would turn into a golden dragon, but a young dragon, which would be appropiate for your age in the game.

Of course, nothing of this is in the book, so your Dm may feel fine with this (which wouldn't be weird, given that you already are lvl 17 and you probably are facing challenges big enough, that this sort of thing wouldn't make a big difference).


True. At lvl 17, every Wizard wants "just a month or something" to spam Wish-Simulacrum for 30 Simulacrums and 2.5 dozen Firebolts/round. Becoming a Dragon takes much, all your features are gone and when you become permanent there is only 2 ways back and each involve a lvl 9 spell slot which aren't buyable.



EDIT: Having re-read the entry for gold dragon and his ability to shape change, it allows the dragon to transform into a humanoid, but I would understand it as a "normal humanoid" (A humanoid with the stats of a dragon xD), since "Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.", as such, I would understand that the ability to cast spells is a class feature of the archmage, therefore, the dragon (or a wizard who got polymorphed into a dragon) would only have the spellcasting ability appropiate for the dragon he got transformed into, and none of the spellcasting of the archmage, he could have the archamage appearance though.

One more thing, if I were to consider the Archmage as Monster, based o nthe fact that he is on the MM (which I don't), I would transform lvl 12 adventurers into archmage, which I think would be much more powerful.
Well you are right. I'd say that you can transform into a Drow Mage for example...

[zinycor]

Well you are right. I'd say that you can transform into a Drow Mage for example...

Why would you be able to transform into a Drow mage?

[Raphite1]

Absolutely not.

If I were running the game, I'd definitely let you True Polymorph into the gold dragon - that's entirely within the intent of the rules. I'd even let you keep your class levels, even though the spell description is a bit fuzzy on this.

A gold dragon with that many wizard levels is already extremely powerful, so you'd have to do more to earn it than just concentrate on a level 9 spell for an hour. Other dragons would definitely find out about you if you stayed in dragon form for any significant amount of time, and it would be a big, big deal to them.

You absolutely 100% could not, could NOT Change Shape from dragon to Archmage. And frankly if you tried to argue for this I'd take it as a sign that you were a player to be suspicious of, who was looking to abuse the game and was more interested in hogging the spotlight than having a fun game together with the group.

OBVIOUSLY the archmage in the Monster Manual is intended to be a quick-and-dirty way for the DM to drop a wizard NPC into the game without having to spend hours building one via class levels like a PC. OBVIOUSLY. Change Shape turns you into a creature's physical form, which MAY come with innate abilities depending on the race/species, but you definitely don't get their specialized training and memorized spells. You'd turn into a normal human, elf, or whatever race you chose.

[ImSAMazing]

Absolutely not.

If I were running the game, I'd definitely let you True Polymorph into the gold dragon - that's entirely within the intent of the rules. I'd even let you keep your class levels, even though the spell description is a bit fuzzy on this.

A gold dragon with that many wizard levels is already extremely powerful, so you'd have to do more to earn it than just concentrate on a level 9 spell for an hour. Other dragons would definitely find out about you if you stayed in dragon form for any significant amount of time, and it would be a big, big deal to them.

You absolutely 100% could not, could NOT Change Shape from dragon to Archmage. And frankly if you tried to argue for this I'd take it as a sign that you were a player to be suspicious of, who was looking to abuse the game and was more interested in hogging the spotlight than having a fun game together with the group.

OBVIOUSLY the archmage in the Monster Manual is intended to be a quick-and-dirty way for the DM to drop a wizard NPC into the game without having to spend hours building one via class levels like a PC. OBVIOUSLY. Change Shape turns you into a creature's physical form, which MAY come with innate abilities depending on the race/species, but you definitely don't get their specialized training and memorized spells. You'd turn into a normal human, elf, or whatever race you chose.
You'd let him keep his class levels? WOW that is OP. I agree you can't Shapechange into an Archmage. Was jsut wondering. YOu know what is abuse? TP into an Adult Dragon which is 799 years and 364 days old.

[GiantOctopodes]

Yeah, Archmage doesn't work. Arcanaloth, however, works just fine, as do Ultroloths. (For true polymorph forms with spellcasting, not change shape ability of dragons)

Edit: I've still been trying to figure out how, if at all, you could get your form Back after true polymorph. Obviously you use Simulacrum before you do it, so you've got a disposable duplicate of yourself running around whose form you can copy, but what then? Are there any body snatching abilities you can use to reclaim your form? Intellect Devourer doesn't work since it's kinda just riding inside the body, and you'd have to sack your Int to get the form, and the Simulacrum will disappear after it hits 0 HP anyway. Any better ideas, such as soul gem equivalents?

[ImSAMazing]

Yeah, Archmage doesn't work. Arcanaloth, however, works just fine, as do Ultroloths.

Those aren't Humanoids are they?

[Raphite1]

You'd let him keep his class levels? WOW that is OP. I agree you can't Shapechange into an Archmage. Was jsut wondering. YOu know what is abuse? TP into an Adult Dragon which is 799 years and 364 days old.

Yes on the class levels, since the spell says the target keeps "personality" which at least suggests that all memories such as training would be intact (if the form is capable of using the training), and it also goes on to specify that the target can't cast spells in the new form unless the new form has appropriate speech and hands, which implies that the spellcasting would have been something that the target had before the Polymorph and retained afterwards.

But, changing into a powerful form has powerful consequences. In this case, some dragons may be deeply offended, or other entities in the game may struggle to gain the favor of this new being, or try to enslave or manipulate it. The results of this will probably put the newly-Polymorphed character in great danger of being killed. However, they may surmount the challenge and be able to live happily ever after with their new power.

[zinycor]

If I were running the game, I'd definitely let you True Polymorph into the gold dragon - that's entirely within the intent of the rules. I'd even let you keep your class levels, even though the spell description is a bit fuzzy on this.


The new form loses all previous features, but his personality and alignment. So it wouldn't keep his class levels.

[GiantOctopodes]

Yes on the class levels, since the spell says the target keeps "personality" which at least suggests that all memories such as training would be intact (if the form is capable of using the training), and it also goes on to specify that the target can't cast spells in the new form unless the new form has appropriate speech and hands, which implies that the spellcasting would have been something that the target had before the Polymorph and retained afterwards.

But, changing into a powerful form has powerful consequences. In this case, some dragons may be deeply offended, or other entities in the game may struggle to gain the favor of this new being, or try to enslave or manipulate it. The results of this will probably put the newly-Polymorphed character in great danger of being killed. However, they may surmount the challenge and be able to live happily ever after with their new power.

No, it's not fuzzy on it, it's quite clear- the game statistics (which include all elements of the stat block, spellcasting included) REPLACE those of your current form. No more spellcasting, no more skill proficiencies, no more anything. You have the stat block of the new creature AND THAT'S IT. Your personality is just that- your winning personality, the Role Playing elements of the RPG, nothing more. Compare and contrast with Shapechange for additional clarity, or the Wild Shape feature, which spell out exactly what you retain. If nothing is spelled out, nothing is retained, as is the case with True Polymorph.

[ImSAMazing]

Yes on the class levels, since the spell says the target keeps "personality" which at least suggests that all memories such as training would be intact (if the form is capable of using the training), and it also goes on to specify that the target can't cast spells in the new form unless the new form has appropriate speech and hands, which implies that the spellcasting would have been something that the target had before the Polymorph and retained afterwards.

But, changing into a powerful form has powerful consequences. In this case, some dragons may be deeply offended, or other entities in the game may struggle to gain the favor of this new being, or try to enslave or manipulate it. The results of this will probably put the newly-Polymorphed character in great danger of being killed. However, they may surmount the challenge and be able to live happily ever after with their new power.

It does state that the statistics are all replaced. Class levels seem statistics to me. And fighting some dragons would be cool.

[Raphite1]

No, it's not fuzzy on it, it's quite clear- the game statistics (which include all elements of the stat block, spellcasting included) REPLACE those of your current form. No more spellcasting, no more skill proficiencies, no more anything. ...

All ability scores change for sure, and I'd say that proficiency bonus and "statistics" like vision, movement, etc. do as well.

But, to me, skills and class levels (if any) still seem to be retained. Why else would the spell description call out the fact that spellcasting ability is still possible if the new form has speech/hands for it?

Edit: This reading would work for most classes, but would be problematic for sorcerers, whose class features are dependent from some element of their physical being rather than purely learned. Not sure how I'd handle that.

[SharkForce]

whether or not the archmage's spellcasting comes from having a class in the PHB, it is definitely a class feature. it is even defined in terms of a class ability; they cast as level 18 wizards. not just as a level 18 character, using intelligence, but specifically as a level 18 wizard.

you can true polymorph into an archmage because it has no caveats about not gaining class features (much as I might wish it didn't give or take them, it does both), but the dragon's shapechange very clearly does not give class abilities, and the archmage ability to cast spells as a level 18 wizard is very clearly a wizard class feature.

note that you could still per RAW shapechange into an archmage, you just wouldn't gain class features (as Crawford notes, the MM is incredibly vague regarding what actually counts as a class features, but spellcasting is clearly identified as a class feature). that includes the spellcasting of the arcanoloth and ultroloth as well; you would gain any innate spellcasting abilities, as those are by definition not class features, but the actual spellcasting feature is definitely a class feature, and is always defined in terms of what class the feature comes from.

[Shining Wrath]

The dragon's feature says that you can shapechange into a beast or humanoid.
So the entire thing here is whether an Archmage is an humanoid.
I rule that it is not.
An human is a humanoid. An Elf is an humanoid. An Archmage is a specific person or profession. It's not a creature type, it's a specific example of one kind of creature type. That's like saying that you shapechange into a butcher or an accountant.
You can't do that, because you keep your own mind. You physically become the race or beast that you choose, but the change is only physical. You can become an human, or an elf, or a dwarf, or whatever, but that's where it ends. You get all of the racial features of the choice, but not any that would have come from experience or learning or (virtual) class levels.

You can say that all Archmages are humanoid, but you cannot say that all humanoids are Archmages, therefore Archmage would not be a suitable candidate for the dragon's shapechange (nor would any other specific NPC entry in the MM).

Look at it this way:
If you can shapechange into a specific example of an humanoid, then what's to stop you from using shapechange to become an exact duplicate of the party's druid? I mean, the character that your friend across the table is playing is an humanoid, isn't he?
That's just one example. It's a bit extreme due to the class features clause, but it amounts to the same thing.
Functionally speaking, an Archmage has class levels.

Substitution for counterexample: All hobgoblins are humanoids, but not all humanoids are hobgoblins; therefore, hobgoblin would not be a suitable candidate for the dragon's shapechange.

The question is whether or not having a MM entry makes you a creature type. Can you become a veteran? A bandit captain?

It may be that the necessary ruling is that entries in the NPC section of the MM are not valid results of a polymorph - any of them. But until that ruling is made, an archmage is doable by RAW as I see it.

[Vogonjeltz]

I think RAI is ment that a Metallic Dragon can Shapechange into someone with Spellcasting, so I think thats what I'd rule.

I don't think that quote said what you seem to think it said. In any event, the shapechange spell specifies that it's an average member of the species with any class features or the spellcasting trait. Does the dragon provide an exception to this in its ability?

Also, True Polymorph only lets the creature retain alignment and personality, the mental stats (i.e. the mind) are replaced entirely. So if your wizard was a nice neutral good wizard, your party would have a nice, neutral good, NPC dragon. But that's all. You'd be dead effectively and the DM would take control of the character.

The spell you're looking for, where you maintain your ego, is Shapechange. True polymorph is for threatening to turn people into newts...and then doing it.

[ImSAMazing]

I don't think that quote said what you seem to think it said. In any event, the shapechange spell specifies that it's an average member of the species with any class features or the spellcasting trait. Does the dragon provide an exception to this in its ability?

Also, True Polymorph only lets the creature retain alignment and personality, the mental stats (i.e. the mind) are replaced entirely. So if your wizard was a nice neutral good wizard, your party would have a nice, neutral good, NPC dragon. But that's all. You'd be dead effectively and the DM would take control of the character.

The spell you're looking for, where you maintain your ego, is Shapechange. True polymorph is for threatening to turn people into newts...and then doing it.
You can still contribute to the party. In combat you change into a Giant Ape/T rex, and in Social you change into a humanoid. During important fights you CAN chamge into Dragon form.

[tieren]

You can still contribute to the party. In combat you change into a Giant Ape/T rex, and in Social you change into a humanoid. During important fights you CAN chamge into Dragon form.

"Dragon" isn't a playable class. DM should npc it and you should reroll.

[Raphite1]

...
Also, True Polymorph only lets the creature retain alignment and personality, the mental stats (i.e. the mind) are replaced entirely. So if your wizard was a nice neutral good wizard, your party would have a nice, neutral good, NPC dragon. But that's all. You'd be dead effectively and the DM would take control of the character.
...

It says the new form keeps your personality. That's seems way closer to being "you" than your mental stats. Maybe you're more or less clever now, maybe you're more or less insightful, but the new form is still just as much "you" as a real-life person was still the same person when they were a kid with worse mental stats.

I don't understand why the DM should now control the character. Would the DM control your PC if you hit level 4 and added 2 to your Int? Your char's personality and alignment stayed the same, but mental stats changed!

[Sigreid]

Given the line about only casting spells if the form has the correct anatomy I think it was intentionally left open to interpretation so the DM can make their own choice without the player countering with "But the rules say".

[Vogonjeltz]

It says the new form keeps your personality. That's seems way closer to being "you" than your mental stats. Maybe you're more or less clever now, maybe you're more or less insightful, but the new form is still just as much "you" as a real-life person was still the same person when they were a kid with worse mental stats.

I don't understand why the DM should now control the character. Would the DM control your PC if you hit level 4 and added 2 to your Int? Your char's personality and alignment stayed the same, but mental stats changed!

One (true polymorph) replaces your mental stats, the other (ASI) increases them. So no, not in the latter case.

As for spellcasting:
Page 10

"A monster with the Spellcasting class feature has a spellcaster level and spell slots"

As to the appendix B:

Page 113
"Change shape: The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast"

Page 7
"Humanoids are the main people of the D&D world...including humans.... The most common humanoid races are the ones most suitable as player characters.... Almost as numerous...are the races of goblinoids.... ...the races detailed in the Players Handbook...are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you can use to make various members of those races."

So, the stat blocks at the end are explicit in not being humanoids per se, rather they are NPC roles. The dragon can become a kind of humanoid (human, elf, dwarf, gnome, goblin, Orc, etc) but not a profession (acolyte, arch mage, assassin, bandit)

[AbyssStalker]

I would allow the person True-Morphed to retain control of the character, but I don't think I would allow a player to just transform into any NPC with spellcasting abilities. Because I see no harm in it I would allow the character to shapeshift into a form that is identical to it's original (In appearence), I MIGHT be convinced to allow the creature to shapeshift into it's original form and regain class features and it's original statistics (even though it isn't RAW), as long as it is not abused to a ridiculous extent, or in-fact any extent I would be uncomfortable with. (If they did that I would likely have him killed by Bahamut for so callously mocking the grandeur of dragons)

But then again, if you want your original form back, you could always just have someone clone you before you morph, that would be completely fine with me, the person might even earn brownie points for good contingency.

That said, and I do not believe this to be the case myself, could the dragon GAIN class levels, or whatever form he turned into do so?

[DivisibleByZero]

The question is whether or not having a MM entry makes you a creature type. Can you become a veteran? A bandit captain?

It may be that the necessary ruling is that entries in the NPC section of the MM are not valid results of a polymorph - any of them. But until that ruling is made, an archmage is doable by RAW as I see it.

And that is exactly why my post pretty much began with "I rule that...."
Because NPCs are not viable choices. NPCs are specific characters. So no bandit captain, no veteran, no priest, no archmage, no scout, no nothing. No NPCs.

Choose a type of humanoid.
Not a type of a type of humanoid. Not a specific profession or individual under that humanoid umbrella.
This also means that you could shapechange via the dragon's feature into an Orc, but not an Eye of G Orc. Orc is a humanoid. EoGO is a specific individual that just happens to be an Orc.

[ImSAMazing]

So no Drow Mage ?

[Gwendol]

Correct, unless Drow mages are typical drow in the current setting.

[Shining Wrath]

The Drow are both in the MM and the PHB; I'd say any Drow above bog-standard is actually a form of NPC, and I don't think you ought to be able to polymorph into an NPC as previously stated.

Ought to be meaning RAI; RAW I think the MM is open for business.

[tieren]

I don't understand why the DM should now control the character. Would the DM control your PC if you hit level 4 and added 2 to your Int? Your char's personality and alignment stayed the same, but mental stats changed!

There are certain playable races and certain playable classes. When you hit level 4 you were still a playable race and a playable character. "Dragon" is not a playable race and it does not have a playable class, therefore the character becomes un-playable and the player should create a new playable character so they can continue to play the game.

[Daishain]

There are certain playable races and certain playable classes. When you hit level 4 you were still a playable race and a playable character. "Dragon" is not a playable race and it does not have a playable class, therefore the character becomes un-playable and the player should create a new playable character so they can continue to play the game.
Goblin isn't a playable race either technically, and yet many DMs would have no problem allowing it.

The problem has more to do with appropriate challenges and game balance. If the DM is not prepared to run a campaign that will challenge a dragon, and/or the other players will get left behind the player who became a dragon, then no one will have fun, and the group might as well pack up and go home. The easiest solution by far is to 'retire' characters that hit near godlike levels of power, rather than futilely attempting to accommodate them.

The threat of forcible retirement can also serve as a deterrent to acts of munchkinry, like a fighter who starts out with 8 strength and describes himself as having been bitten by a werebear the week before the campaign starts.

[ImSAMazing]

There are certain playable races and certain playable classes. When you hit level 4 you were still a playable race and a playable character. "Dragon" is not a playable race and it does not have a playable class, therefore the character becomes un-playable and the player should create a new playable character so they can continue to play the game.
I disagree. A player can become a Vampire, a Lich, and every other type of creature in the game at lvl 20(Except CR20+). It will give lots of Roleplaying opportunities and if you don't allow it, that is a bad job as DM. As a DM you should make the challenges harder, not nerf the players. Come on, at lvl 17 I could also do the Wish-Simulacrum shenagin so yeah, becoming an Adult Dragon is worse then that. You lose all your spells and features, intrade for other features. Seems fair to me, at least less OP then becoming a Vampire.


Goblin isn't a playable race either technically, and yet many DMs would have no problem allowing it.

The problem has more to do with appropriate challenges and game balance. If the DM is not prepared to run a campaign that will challenge a dragon, and/or the other players will get left behind the player who became a dragon, then no one will have fun, and the group might as well pack up and go home. The easiest solution by far is to 'retire' characters that hit near godlike levels of power, rather than futilely attempting to accommodate them.

The threat of forcible retirement can also serve as a deterrent to acts of munchkinry, like a fighter who starts out with 8 strength and describes himself as having been bitten by a werebear the week before the campaign starts.
I am the only one with NO artifacts. Every other player in the party already has an artifact. The game is based around them. We are currently fighting Goristro's. It is not like it will make a big difference, a lvl 4 spell can do what I can do when I have become a Gold Dragon and not in Dragon form.

[tieren]

Goblin isn't a playable race either technically, and yet many DMs would have no problem allowing it.


Obviously the correct answer is always talk to your DM and see what they will allow. You may have DMs that would let her true polymorph into a dog and be another characters pet or true polymorph permanently into an inanimate object like a chair or spellbook.

But if the player is trying to plan out some insane munchkinry (she basically wants to stay a wizard and just change into a dragon whenever she wants with the dragon ability instead of a spell that would do it) the expectation under the rules should be your character will not be playable if it is not a playable race or class.

[ImSAMazing]

Obviously the correct answer is always talk to your DM and see what they will allow. You may have DMs that would let her true polymorph into a dog and be another characters pet or true polymorph permanently into an inanimate object like a chair or spellbook.

But if the player is trying to plan out some insane munchkinry (she basically wants to stay a wizard and just change into a dragon whenever she wants with the dragon ability instead of a spell that would do it) the expectation under the rules should be your character will not be playable if it is not a playable race or class.

When True Polymorphed into a Dragon and if you dont stop concentrating, it becomes permanent. You cant turn back, except using Shapechange to change into your old RACE, not character. It's a 1 time choice.

[Daishain]

I am the only one with NO artifacts. Every other player in the party already has an artifact. The game is based around them. We are currently fighting Goristro's. It is not like it will make a big difference, a lvl 4 spell can do what I can do when I have become a Gold Dragon and not in Dragon form.
Under those circumstances, it might be justifiable. Though I wouldn't blame your DM for considering it carefully.

[ImSAMazing]

Under those circumstances, it might be justifiable. Though I wouldn't blame your DM for considering it carefully.

At lvl 12 we had the opportunity to become Vampires, so Yeah I think so. Also another question:
Where should I build my hoard?

[Daishain]

At lvl 12 we had the opportunity to become Vampires, so Yeah I think so. Also another question:
Where should I build my hoard?
Gold dragons are known to build elaborate mansion like underground complexes. If that doesn't quite appeal, any securable setup will do.

[ImSAMazing]

Gold dragons are known to build elaborate mansion like underground complexes. If that doesn't quite appeal, any securable setup will do.

Cool. But they don't have Burrow, so how are they going to make holes? \

[Daishain]

Cool. But they don't have Burrow, so how are they going to make holes? \
A lack of burrow speed doesn't mean an inability to dig, it just indicates they can't tunnel fast enough to measure progress in a matter of seconds.

That aside, Golds are known as particularly powerful spellcasters, I imagine most of them would utilize magic to do the grunt work rather than dirty their claws. Failing that, hiring a trustworthy team of dwarves or other such creatures for the job is not out of the question. In addition, kobolds were previously characterized as serving dragons of all types rather than just the chromatic ones. A kobold tribe could easily act to build and maintain a Gold's lair.

[SharkForce]

Cool. But they don't have Burrow, so how are they going to make holes? \
that's what minions are for.

[Shining Wrath]

Gold dragons do have water breathing, so I think digging your lair beneath a large lake, arranging everything just so, and then knocking a hole in the roof somewhere is a good start.

[AbyssStalker]

Or you could find a mean ol' cloud giant, kill him and take his awesome sky home, for flavor you might even attempt to get a personal cadre of Urds to be minions.

[ImSAMazing]

Or just change into a beast with Burrow speed.

[Vogonjeltz]

The Drow are both in the MM and the PHB; I'd say any Drow above bog-standard is actually a form of NPC, and I don't think you ought to be able to polymorph into an NPC as previously stated.

Ought to be meaning RAI; RAW I think the MM is open for business.

The whole point of quoting out those sections of the Monster Manual (MM) is that they provide proof that, as written, the NPC appendix stat blocks aren't what is meant by humanoids, those are specifically defined in the front of the MM as: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Goblinoid and NOT Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.


So no Drow Mage ?

Drow yes, Drow <profession>, no. The ability isn't Change Profession.

[SharkForce]

The whole point of quoting out those sections of the Monster Manual (MM) is that they provide proof that, as written, the NPC appendix stat blocks aren't what is meant by humanoids, those are specifically defined in the front of the MM as: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Goblinoid and NOT Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.



Drow yes, Drow <profession>, no. The ability isn't Change Profession.

RAW, a drow mage is a humanoid and is a valid target (even if I'd rather it not be).

but then, I wouldn't follow RAW exactly anyways.

it is worth noting, however, that most other transformation spells and effects specifically say they won't give you class abilities, but true polymorph does not (nor, for that matter, does regular polymorph... I suppose you could arguably polymorph into an awakened version of the creature with learned abilities, does the type change when you awaken a beast?)

[Daishain]

RAW, a drow mage is a humanoid and is a valid target (even if I'd rather it not be).

Technically, so is "god like human with 50 in all stats and every class feature ever"

Somehow I suspect that's not the intent.

[SharkForce]

Technically, so is "god like human with 50 in all stats and every class feature ever"

Somehow I suspect that's not the intent.

well, no.

20 in all stats is theoretically possible. 50 is well beyond natural human capabilities.

but yes, theoretically you could make an argument for human with 20 in everything. I wouldn't allow it, but then, I wouldn't allow "human knight" either. that doesn't mean it isn't an option.