Best Gish build?

[Spacehamster]

2 paladin 18 favored soul. Two attacks, level 4 smite spell slot at lvl 8 already, metamagic and other goodies! Start with paladin and variant human for polearm master for more attacks since you delay your 2nd attack.

So what do you guys and girls think of this? Is there any even better build that is better at both mauling faces and melting them with spells?

[ZenBear]

Yeah that's pretty much the best way to do it. Paladin is a really good class all by itself but if you really want to lean into Smite then Favored Soul multiclass gives you Smite for days and 9th level spells so you even get to break the world with all the other full casters.

[Spacehamster]

Thought as much! :D now just home to make one. ^.^

[Paeleus]

Well that depends. What flavor of gish we talking? Hack n' cast? Buff and swing? Heal or attack? Sustained damage or nova focus? Debuff and stack damage?

My point is, gish is a loose term for a arcane (or divine whatever) melee character who has three choices: weapon attack, casting a spell, or both.

[charlesk]

I played a build like this in a short campaign. They are amazing nova damage dealers, using high-level slots on crits for smiting. (Best I did was 248 in one round of very fine dice-rolling.) I found I did that much more than I did actual casting, though that may be because we had a "real" sorcerer in our group.

[MrStabby]

Thats probably the best I have found.

Eldritch knight (11) sorcerer (7) Paladin(2) is also not bad, but is obviously more fighty.


Valor bard (14) Sorcerer (4) Paladin (2) Might work as well, if only to collect combat spells through magical secrets (and most could be got through favoured soul domain anyway)

The trick with these is quickened hold person for crits.

[ZenBear]

IMO you should take War Domain for Spirit Guardians, Crusader's Mantle, Magic Weapon, etc.

[Spacehamster]

IMO you should take War Domain for Spirit Guardians, Crusader's Mantle, Magic Weapon, etc.

Will have a look at the domain spells when I get home from work. :)

[Ralanr]

What no bladelock?

This is why I love there being no Gish class. It makes a bunch of people make builds that try to emulate it without them being the same. No "Gish" in 5e is the same.

[Spacehamster]

What no bladelock?

This is why I love there being no Gish class. It makes a bunch of people make builds that try to emulate it without them being the same. No "Gish" in 5e is the same.

To me the one I started the post with feels the most gish, able to beat enemies into a pulp with great efficiency or melt their face with a fireball(or a meteor shower at higher levels) and also able to heal and play around with meta magic. :)

[Ralanr]

I love metamagic and hope no other class gets it.

[charlesk]

IMO you should take War Domain for Spirit Guardians, Crusader's Mantle, Magic Weapon, etc.

This is what I did, and ended up with a lot of spell options.. which rarely got used because of the concentration mechanism.

Consider level 3 of paladin. Oath of Vengeance allows you to put serious hurt on a boss.

This is also an excellent mage-disruption build. Nothing like having a mage need to make a DC 40 concentration check...

[Spacehamster]

This is what I did, and ended up with a lot of spell options.. which rarely got used because of the concentration mechanism.

Consider level 3 of paladin. Oath of Vengeance allows you to put serious hurt on a boss.

This is also an excellent mage-disruption build. Nothing like having a mage need to make a DC 40 concentration check...

True but it delays that lvl 9 spell even more so it's a hard to decide decision to take. :) were also thinking 2 pal, 6 eldritch knight and 12 sorcerer, Nets lvl 8 slots so not as casty but instead you gain action surge, another combat style and the normal amount of asi's so you can specialize more.

This would probably be a build to take if you want to be another race then vuman so you get enough ASI's to both get a feat or two and raise your stats. :)

[Spectre9000]

The build I'm gonna go with is a buffing build centered around sustainability. I'm gonna do a Pal 5/Wa 1/Pa 6-11/So 8. That'll give Elemental Weapon, which can benefit from Elemental Affinity and with a 7th level spell slot you get 3d4+Cha mod on every attack you make with the enchanted weapon, plus the 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite on every weapon attack period. Also, you'll have Aid, Armor of Agathys, plenty of smites, telepathy, Metamagic (Old ones level 1 ability), Spell points, and all sorts of goodness. This focuses on buffing though, so spell casting will be limited to smiting and maybe Eldritch Blast for large groups. Also, I plan on taking advantage of the 1d8 extra damage by doing dual wield, and with more attacks I can use Divine Smite more for insane burst damage.

[ZenBear]

This is what I did, and ended up with a lot of spell options.. which rarely got used because of the concentration mechanism.

Consider level 3 of paladin. Oath of Vengeance allows you to put serious hurt on a boss.

This is also an excellent mage-disruption build. Nothing like having a mage need to make a DC 40 concentration check...

Fair point, but then you only need to cast the right one for the situation at hand and Smite all day. :smallcool:

That is an excellent point about spell disruption. Never ever occurred to me.

[charlesk]

The build I'm gonna go with is a buffing build centered around sustainability. I'm gonna do a Pal 5/Wa 1/Pa 6-11/So 8. That'll give Elemental Weapon, which can benefit from Elemental Affinity and with a 7th level spell slot you get 3d4+Cha mod on every attack you make with the enchanted weapon, plus the 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite on every weapon attack period. Also, you'll have Aid, Armor of Agathys, plenty of smites, telepathy, Metamagic (Old ones level 1 ability), Spell points, and all sorts of goodness. This focuses on buffing though, so spell casting will be limited to smiting and maybe Eldritch Blast for large groups. Also, I plan on taking advantage of the 1d8 extra damage by doing dual wield, and with more attacks I can use Divine Smite more for insane burst damage.

An interesting-sounding build.

Crits are, well, critical to a good smiting build... unless your DM doesn't allow crits to affect smite dice.

[MrStabby]

The build I'm gonna go with is a buffing build centered around sustainability. I'm gonna do a Pal 5/Wa 1/Pa 6-11/So 8. That'll give Elemental Weapon, which can benefit from Elemental Affinity and with a 7th level spell slot you get 3d4+Cha mod on every attack you make with the enchanted weapon, plus the 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite on every weapon attack period. Also, you'll have Aid, Armor of Agathys, plenty of smites, telepathy, Metamagic (Old ones level 1 ability), Spell points, and all sorts of goodness. This focuses on buffing though, so spell casting will be limited to smiting and maybe Eldritch Blast for large groups. Also, I plan on taking advantage of the 1d8 extra damage by doing dual wield, and with more attacks I can use Divine Smite more for insane burst damage.

I believe it has been clarified that Cha only gets added to damage once per spell.

[Waazraath]

I don't know about 'best', but what I want to try the next time I get a chance to play one: sorcerer favoured (war domain) soul 6 / warlock 3 / sorcerer favored 11. Benefits:

- 2 attacks
- metamagic: quicken & extend (longer buffs and option to cast a spell as a bonus action and make a full attack); 1 free, for example subtle for out of combat situations
- Warlock spells: armor of agathys (AoA), hellish rebuke, hex
- Sorcerer spells: haste, blur, mirror image, misty step, shield
- War domain spells: divine favor, magic weapon, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians
- warlock: more or less 'extra's), 2 invocations (agonizing blast for a powerfull ranged option at will, maybe devil's sight for darkness combo, or something like mask of many faces for utility), patron (probably fiend for extra HP, or great old one gives some utility), pact boon (blade for heavy weapon like maul or greatsword, familiar for 'help' action, or book for utility)
-proficient in con saves

Essentially, this means that every turn, the gish can use a spell as a bonus action (either because it's a bonus action already, like hex, divine favour, spiritual weapon or misty step, or any other with quicken spell), make a full attack, and have a reaction for either damage (hellish rebuke) or shield. The gish knows several spells which are good and don't require concentration, like mirror image, AoA and spiritual weapon. That means lots of offensive and defensive options, and optimal use of the action economy. A gish with mirror image, spiritual weapon and spirit guardians going, that can make 2 attacks, deals damage when hit (AoA) and can increase it with hellish rebuke or prevent it with shield, should be able to go to town.

As for feats and ability scores, cha and str should be maxed, dex 14 is ok, con as high as possible, wis and int dump. With feats allowed, war caster would be nice, and if pact of the blade is chosen, at higher levels great weapon master for extra damage.

Suggestions welcome!

[Spectre9000]

I don't know about 'best', but what I want to try the next time I get a chance to play one: sorcerer favoured (war domain) soul 6 / warlock 3 / sorcerer favored 11. Benefits:

- 2 attacks
- metamagic: quicken & extend (longer buffs and option to cast a spell as a bonus action and make a full attack); 1 free, for example subtle for out of combat situations
- Warlock spells: armor of agathys (AoA), hellish rebuke, hex
- Sorcerer spells: haste, blur, mirror image, misty step, shield
- War domain spells: divine favor, magic weapon, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians
- warlock: more or less 'extra's), 2 invocations (agonizing blast for a powerfull ranged option at will, maybe devil's sight for darkness combo, or something like mask of many faces for utility), patron (probably fiend for extra HP, or great old one gives some utility), pact boon (blade for heavy weapon like maul or greatsword, familiar for 'help' action, or book for utility)
-proficient in con saves

Essentially, this means that every turn, the gish can use a spell as a bonus action (either because it's a bonus action already, like hex, divine favour, spiritual weapon or misty step, or any other with quicken spell), make a full attack, and have a reaction for either damage (hellish rebuke) or shield. The gish knows several spells which are good and don't require concentration, like mirror image, AoA and spiritual weapon. That means lots of offensive and defensive options, and optimal use of the action economy. A gish with mirror image, spiritual weapon and spirit guardians going, that can make 2 attacks, deals damage when hit (AoA) and can increase it with hellish rebuke or prevent it with shield, should be able to go to town.

As for feats and ability scores, cha and str should be maxed, dex 14 is ok, con as high as possible, wis and int dump. With feats allowed, war caster would be nice, and if pact of the blade is chosen, at higher levels great weapon master for extra damage.

Suggestions welcome!

You can't use haste, blur, spirit guardians, magic weapon, hex, and several others together as they require concentration. Additionally, casting multiple times every turn (bonus action, reaction, AoO) are gonna burn your spell slots in one combat. You're also gonna suffer from MAD if you want High Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and even just 14 Dex. High Elf, Human, Dwarf, or Dragonborne will probably be good for you as far as races go.

[ZenBear]

@Waazraath: Heavily Armored feat at 1 or 4 so you don't need the 14 DEX. Put it in CON instead.

[Waazraath]

You can't use haste, blur, spirit guardians, magic weapon, hex, and several others together as they require concentration. Additionally, casting multiple times every turn (bonus action, reaction, AoO) are gonna burn your spell slots in one combat. You're also gonna suffer from MAD if you want High Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and even just 14 Dex. High Elf, Human, Dwarf, or Dragonborne will probably be good for you as far as races go.

I know, but you can use AoA, mirror image and spiritual weapon, and 1 concentration spell... depending on the situation, you can either choose an offensive or defensive concentration option. Assuming AoA is on already, that means that the first 3 rounds of combat are mirror image, spiritual weapon, and one concentration spell. What I like is the bit of 'old school' gish feel, buffing oneself with magic to augment melee. Agree with your race suggestions. The heavily armored feat-suggestion of Zenbear is nice as well.

[charlesk]

I do think warlock adds a lot to this build and I would mix that in next time if I did it again. Probably for non-concentration stuff like AoA. But that does take slots of course.

I had grand plans for all the spells I got from being a favored soul. In practice, I mostly used my casting slots and concentration on Haste. Because.. Haste. There's nothing that compares to it for a melee.

[Spectre9000]

I do think warlock adds a lot to this build and I would mix that in next time if I did it again. Probably for non-concentration stuff like AoA. But that does take slots of course.

I had grand plans for all the spells I got from being a favored soul. In practice, I mostly used my casting slots and concentration on Haste. Because.. Haste. There's nothing that compares to it for a melee.

Elemental Weapon outshines Haste quite a bit, especially mixed with Elemental Affinity.

[charlesk]

Debatable. More attacks means more chances at a crit, and crits again are essential for smite builds. Haste also provides significant defensive and mobility benefits.

[hecetv]

Paladin sorc gets quickened hold person/monster into two smites. That's pretty much the best but there are lots of good gish builds. I honestly still think EK is a brilliant gish in and of itself.

I'm a fan of barbarian 5 artificer 6 lol. Buff yourself with your spell slots (enchanting your armor or weapons, making potions) and then rage at people and be indestructable. Probably not best per se.

Bladelock is great.

Valor bard takes a while until magical secrets but once it gets that and picks up some smites it's very good.

[Spacehamster]

Come to think about it... Does not 2 paladin 18 valor bard maybe make for a better gish with its magical secrets and bigger hit die? I mean then you can get the best smite spells and so on?

[Dralnu]

2 paladin 18 favored soul. Two attacks, level 4 smite spell slot at lvl 8 already, metamagic and other goodies! Start with paladin and variant human for polearm master for more attacks since you delay your 2nd attack.

So what do you guys and girls think of this? Is there any even better build that is better at both mauling faces and melting them with spells?

With the sorcerer's 1d6 HD, I don't think it would make a good melee build.

I'd go straight Paladin. Or if you really, really want to MC, Paladin 6 and then start going into Sorc so you have the defensive auras and a decent amount of HP moving forward, plus delaying Extra Attack is probably a bad idea.

But really, pure Oath of Vengeance paladin is really good melee spellcaster. If you want specifically arcane, pure Eldritch Knight is no slouch.

I find that in 5e, MC'ing should be used sparingly if at all. I'd never want to delay Extra Attack, and you have to take a good long look at what you're giving up by multiclassing in the first place.

[Spacehamster]

With the sorcerer's 1d6 HD, I don't think it would make a good melee build.

I'd go straight Paladin. Or if you really, really want to MC, Paladin 6 and then start going into Sorc so you have the defensive auras and a decent amount of HP moving forward, plus delaying Extra Attack is probably a bad idea.

But really, pure Oath of Vengeance paladin is really good melee spellcaster. If you want specifically arcane, pure Eldritch Knight is no slouch.

I find that in 5e, MC'ing should be used sparingly if at all. I'd never want to delay Extra Attack, and you have to take a good long look at what you're giving up by multiclassing in the first place.

That d6 hit die is what the "tough" feat is made for. ^^ Then all of a sudden you get the same
amount of hp/lvl as a d10 character without the feat. :)

[MaxWilson]

Paladin sorc gets quickened hold person/monster into two smites. That's pretty much the best but there are lots of good gish builds. I honestly still think EK is a brilliant gish in and of itself.

Yes, EK Sharpshooter is a brilliant archer gish.

1.) Huge damage with up to 4 attacks per round thanks to Archery style and Sharpshooter.
2.) Shield, Blur/Blink for defense
3.) Expeditious Retreat for kiting/mobility
4.) Fireball for mobs
5.) Counterspell access to deal with enemy mages
6.) Absorb Elements for breath weapon resistance

[Spacehamster]

Yes, EK Sharpshooter is a brilliant archer gish.

1.) Huge damage with up to 4 attacks per round thanks to Archery style and Sharpshooter.
2.) Shield, Blur/Blink for defense
3.) Expeditious Retreat for kiting/mobility
4.) Fireball for mobs
5.) Counterspell access to deal with enemy mages
6.) Absorb Elements for breath weapon resistance

EK is cool in a way but it just feels like the 1/3rd casters get so incredibly slow spell progression
so once you get for example fireball the wizard can throw delayed blas fireball or finger of death
and so on. :)

[charlesk]

EK is cool in a way but it just feels like the 1/3rd casters get so incredibly slow spell progression
so once you get for example fireball the wizard can throw delayed blas fireball or finger of death
and so on. :)

Last night my group did a major battle at level 15. Fireballs were in abundance, far more than most other spells. They are a mainstay, sure not as splashy as some other spells but they never "go out of style". :)

[MaxWilson]

EK is cool in a way but it just feels like the 1/3rd casters get so incredibly slow spell progression
so once you get for example fireball the wizard can throw delayed blas fireball or finger of death
and so on. :)

But Finger of Death does far less damage than your Sharpshooter-boosted Action Surge, so that's okay. You'll only use Fireball rarely, against truly huge mobs that the wizard can't cover alone. Mostly you use your spells for defensive purposes and your arrows for offense.

[E’Tallitnics]

EK is cool in a way but it just feels like the 1/3rd casters get so incredibly slow spell progression
so once you get for example fireball the wizard can throw delayed blas fireball or finger of death
and so on. :)

Wait, are you expecting a Gish to stay toe-to-toe with a Wizard as far as spell progression goes!? For that matter toe-to-toe with a Fighter's Extra Attack?

[Spacehamster]

Wait, are you expecting a Gish to stay toe-to-toe with a Wizard as far as spell progression goes!? For that matter toe-to-toe with a Fighter's Extra Attack?

Well that is what the build I proposed does so... Yeah. ;)

[MaxWilson]

Well that is what the build I proposed does so... Yeah. ;)

Not quite. It has half as many attacks as a 20th level fighter. Also less resilient to things like dragon breath due to no Absorb Element access. As full casters go it's not terrible, but it's heavy on the "caster" side (still without access to the Wizard spell list, so no access to the best spells like Wall of Force/Conjure Elemental/Animate Dead/Planar Binding/True Polymorph/Simulacrum/etc.) and light on the "warrior" side. And of course it doesn't exist by RAW. At some tables that might be an issue...

It's fine if you want to play this build, but it doesn't measure up to "stay toe-to-toe with a Wizard as far as spell progression goes!? For that matter toe-to-toe with a Fighter's Extra Attack?"

[Spacehamster]

Not quite. It has half as many attacks as a 20th level fighter. Also less resilient to things like dragon breath due to no Absorb Element access. As full casters go it's not terrible, but it's heavy on the "caster" side (still without access to the Wizard spell list, so no access to the best spells like Wall of Force/Conjure Elemental/Animate Dead/Planar Binding/True Polymorph/Simulacrum/etc.) and light on the "warrior" side. And of course it doesn't exist by RAW. At some tables that might be an issue...

It's fine if you want to play this build, but it doesn't measure up to "stay toe-to-toe with a Wizard as far as spell progression goes!? For that matter toe-to-toe with a Fighter's Extra Attack?"

It gets smite and metamagic instead tho + access to some cleric spells. And 4 attacks from going pure fighter I count as almost useless at least for pure dpr as pure fighter does not get that much that adds to the damage of each attack. :) And if favored soul does not fly can always swap them 18 levels with valor bard for more hp, access to 6 spells from any other caster class and all other bard goodies. :)

[Rfkannen]

Come to think about it... Does not 2 paladin 18 valor bard maybe make for a better gish with its magical secrets and bigger hit die? I mean then you can get the best smite spells and so on?

yeah, this seems to be correct. Why is no one talking about this? just put a rapier on the build and you have a great gish. This build even has more ways to mix up spells and attack with the valor features. Seems like it would be better. Not as flavorfull maybe but if you are going for pure min max this seems to take the key (okay it could be plenty flavorful but flavored soul/paladin makes sense automatically, bard/paladin makes sense if you think about it for half a second)

you can get all those cool weapon buffing paladin and ranger spells! Why are people not addressing this?

[ZenBear]

yeah, this seems to be correct. Why is no one talking about this? just put a rapier on the build and you have a great gish. This build even has more ways to mix up spells and attack with the valor features. Seems like it would be better. Not as flavorfull maybe but if you are going for pure min max this seems to take the key (okay it could be plenty flavorful but flavored soul/paladin makes sense automatically, bard/paladin makes sense if you think about it for half a second)

you can get all those cool weapon buffing paladin and ranger spells! Why are people not addressing this?

That is an excellent point.

Huzzah for the Bardladin! :smallbiggrin:

Point of interest: why would you need to use a rapier? Paladin gives martial weapons and heavy armor, you can use any weapon you like, no?

Oh! High level Elemental Weapon! I'm sold!:smallcool:

[Rfkannen]

That is an excellent point.

Huzzah for the Bardladin! :smallbiggrin:

Point of interest: why would you need to use a rapier? Paladin gives martial weapons and heavy armor, you can use any weapon you like, no?

Oh! High level Elemental Weapon! I'm sold!:smallcool:

I said that literately only because I like the flavor of dex based fighters,so it was the first weapon to pop into my head.

Oh yeah, best weapon for something like this would probably be thrown axes. They count as melee weapons acording to the new sage advice. So you have the option to smite at range.


okay I suppose you could just fireball people at range, but it is nice to have.

I suppose any weapon you want will work.

[PoeticDwarf]

I love metamagic and hope no other class gets it.

It is for my the only reason to ever become a sorcerer, next to favored soul and fluff.

[Spacehamster]

I said that literately only because I like the flavor of dex based fighters,so it was the first weapon to pop into my head.

Oh yeah, best weapon for something like this would probably be thrown axes. They count as melee weapons acording to the new sage advice. So you have the option to smite at range.


okay I suppose you could just fireball people at range, but it is nice to have.

I suppose any weapon you want will work.

Will probably make mine a polearm master with heavy armor myself since I enjoy either 2h or dual wield. :) question is take 10 levels straight valor bard first to get the awesome lvl 5 spell banishing smite and then pick up 2 levels paladin or start with 1 lvl paladin so you get heavy armor without a feat but instead get 2nd attack 1 lvl later?

Edit: guess can aswell take 2 levels pala to start with so you can burn spells to smite, that way it does not matter that much you get 2nd attack later especially if you grab polearm master so you can have 2 at will attacks anyways if you want.

[MaxWilson]

It gets smite and metamagic instead tho + access to some cleric spells. And 4 attacks from going pure fighter I count as almost useless at least for pure dpr as pure fighter does not get that much that adds to the damage of each attack. :) And if favored soul does not fly can always swap them 18 levels with valor bard for more hp, access to 6 spells from any other caster class and all other bard goodies. :)

Sharpshooter is actually really good at adding to the damage of each attack, and unlike Smite it's usable from range, all day, every day. If I had to come into melee range and blow multiple spell slots each round just to keep up with the damage the archer can do from 600' away I would be a sad panda. So I'm going to pass on Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18. Thanks all the same.


yeah, this seems to be correct. Why is no one talking about this? just put a rapier on the build and you have a great gish. This build even has more ways to mix up spells and attack with the valor features. Seems like it would be better. Not as flavorfull maybe but if you are going for pure min max this seems to take the key (okay it could be plenty flavorful but flavored soul/paladin makes sense automatically, bard/paladin makes sense if you think about it for half a second)

One important think you lose out on is Con save proficiency. If you're trying to mix it up in melee, neither the Bard's Str/Dex saves nor the Paladin's Wis/Cha saves are going to help you make concentration saves.

[ZenBear]

Sharpshooter is actually really good at adding to the damage of each attack, and unlike Smite it's usable from range, all day, every day. If I had to come into melee range and blow multiple spell slots each round just to keep up with the damage the archer can do from 600' away I would be a sad panda. So I'm going to pass on Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18. Thanks all the same.



One important think you lose out on is Con save proficiency. If you're trying to mix it up in melee, neither the Bard's Str/Dex saves nor the Paladin's Wis/Cha saves are going to help you make concentration saves.

Sharpshooter's extra damage comes with a -5 attack penalty, so there is some give and take. That being said, Sharpshooter/GWM are the borderline OP Feats in the same way the Paladin is the borderline OP class.

You only get CON prof if you go Sorc at 1st level, which means losing heavy armor and martial weapon proficiencies. Whatever class you choose to start with you will want to take a Feat to get a missing feature, whether that's Heavily Armored or Resilient: CON.

[Spacehamster]

Sharpshooter is actually really good at adding to the damage of each attack, and unlike Smite it's usable from range, all day, every day. If I had to come into melee range and blow multiple spell slots each round just to keep up with the damage the archer can do from 600' away I would be a sad panda. So I'm going to pass on Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18. Thanks all the same.



One important think you lose out on is Con save proficiency. If you're trying to mix it up in melee, neither the Bard's Str/Dex saves nor the Paladin's Wis/Cha saves are going to help you make concentration saves.

Ah always hated ranged dpr unless its magic spellslinging so matter of opinion I guess, always been some form of melee, spellcaster or mix of those cause thats the playstyle I enjoy. :)

[Millface]

yeah, this seems to be correct. Why is no one talking about this? just put a rapier on the build and you have a great gish. This build even has more ways to mix up spells and attack with the valor features. Seems like it would be better. Not as flavorfull maybe but if you are going for pure min max this seems to take the key (okay it could be plenty flavorful but flavored soul/paladin makes sense automatically, bard/paladin makes sense if you think about it for half a second)

you can get all those cool weapon buffing paladin and ranger spells! Why are people not addressing this?

The ability to quicken a spell before going in for two smites (3 if you're hasted) is why you want FS over Valor Bard.

Quicken Hold Person followed by two auto crit smites = dead thing.

Warcaster allows for some crazy nova here. You can Quicken a disintegrate or fireball, smite twice, and then if you get the opportunity you can use your reaction to cast another offensive spell. This makes me wonder how warlock would work with this... eldritch blast with repel, then use your attack of opportunity for the creature leaving your reach to do it again.

Sorcery points also allow you to create spell slots on the fly to add more smites to your day and the ability to pick a domain to gain bonus spells from is close enough to equal to the benefit of magical secrets, though admittedly not quite as good.

[charlesk]

Warcaster allows for some crazy nova here. You can Quicken a disintegrate or fireball, smite twice, and then if you get the opportunity you can use your reaction to cast another offensive spell. This makes me wonder how warlock would work with this... eldritch blast with repel, then use your attack of opportunity for the creature leaving your reach to do it again.


Just a quick note that this last part doesn't work: opportunity attacks cannot be triggered by involuntary physical movement of this sort. You get one if you compel a creature magically to leave under its own power, but not by shoving it. So Dissonant Whispers works, but Repelling Blast does not.

[Millface]

Just a quick note that this last part doesn't work: opportunity attacks cannot be triggered by involuntary physical movement of this sort. You get one if you compel a creature magically to leave under its own power, but not by shoving it. So Dissonant Whispers works, but Repelling Blast does not.

Cool, I wasn't sure if it would or not, thanks for the answer!

So I'm not seeing much use for warlock at that point, still I think you go FS over bard for Sorcery Points and metamagic. Both are really potent though.