Need help finishing out a Gestalt build

[shawshank]

Hey guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. I am in a long-term game where we have changed the rules a bit. We used the plz brk my campaign class tier list and eliminated tier 1 and 2. We allow two tier 4's to gestalt but anything that gets you to tier 3 means you can no longer gestalt. For example a Bard is considered tier 3 so for any levels you were a bard you can not gestalt. You can also not take a prestige class that would increase your tier above 3 even if not gestalt.

With that out of the way. I currently have a Healer 7 on one side of the gestalt (tier 5) and Master 4/Phrenic (EL2)/Paladin 1 on the other side. So 1 side is tier 5 while the other is tier 4. My question is what should I progress after level 8. I say after 8 because I fully intend to take Paladin to 2 next level to benefit from CHA to saves.

My current stats with phrenic bonuses and VOP/level increases (did i mention I took vow of poverty?) are as follows:

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 21
Cha 18

I have considered sticking with paladin for 14 levels total eventually which yields some nice abilities and additional casting with a moderate 1-2 punch in my healer companion and paly mount. This would yield a very tanky build. There is also the option of Multi-dips(as my dm does NOT enforce xp penalties for multi-classing) such as Monk 1 (yay more AC), Marshal 1/2 (niiiice motivate bro), DFA(good lord your knowledge check is what?), and Dragon shaman(always half health.. ALWAYS!).

Anyways, if anything hits you as THE BUILD, please let me know as I am just not sure what to do!

Thanks!

Shawshank

[LoyalPaladin]

This is difficult to say. VoP could work alright with Battle Dancer... maybe? What exactly are you looking for? What are your allowed books? What's your fighting style?

[shawshank]

This is difficult to say. VoP could work alright with Battle Dancer... maybe? What exactly are you looking for? What are your allowed books? What's your fighting style?

Great questions! I am using the improved Vow of Poverty. Found http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix The book of Exalted Deeds is actually banned. Most all 3.0 stuff is banned. All other books are allowed. Even all the Dragonlance books which are not official but according to my DM "well done and deserving of use". As long as it is 3.5 and well done he generally allows it. Including all the completes forgotten realms eberron etc. He is more of a supporter than a fighter. I do have zen archery and use a short bow for combat. I have knowledge devotion as he studies all things in order to perfect his faith. Healers and paladins are basically the clerics in a system with no tier 1/2 classes allowed so think of healers as the priests and paladins as the battle clerics. I want to go healer 20 on 1 side for sure and I am taking leadership to attract church followers. I already have my cohort figured out and the followers are only allowed to be NPC classes with a couple of PC lieutenant types.

I am starting to question how my LG church does things (We are in Ptolus so Lothian) and am on an quest to find the original texts of the man before he was a god that are buried deep in the bane warrens.

I hope that helps and thanks for the feedback!

[rockdeworld]

Eh, what you have already sounds just fine. Healer provides good BFC spells (edit: no BOED? Well at least you have access to the Spell Compendium) and spellcasting to use with VOP, and Paladin provides good saves and HD.

If you already have Combat Casting and Dodge, you could go into Combat Medic on the Healer side for added value on cure spells, but if not I wouldn't recommend picking them up just for the class.

Contemplative over Healer at level 11 would give you a domain for extra spells/abilities, plus some other goodies if you stay for more than a dip.

Divine Crusader over Paladin/Master would work too (at a slight hit to your chassis), considering your high CHA.

Other than that, nothing really stands out.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hmmm... I'm not to sure where to go with this. Battle Dancer gets Cha to AC, but it is generally frowned upon as a class. Great for unarmed strikes though.

Craigtop Archer is great for archers, but you're a healer too. It's hard to put this one together. I'll let my fellow playgrounders take a crack at this.

[shawshank]

Hmmm... I'm not to sure where to go with this. Battle Dancer gets Cha to AC, but it is generally frowned upon as a class. Great for unarmed strikes though.

Craigtop Archer is great for archers, but you're a healer too. It's hard to put this one together. I'll let my fellow playgrounders take a crack at this.

It just occured to me you might want to know what is in the party to see what niche I might need to fill. Everyone in the party is a competent optimizer. That is the biggest reason for banning tier 1's and 2's. We are basically unchallenged when we have access to that. So, we have a Bardsader. Bard 4/Crusader 3 right now. We have a half-dragon, half-ogre, (we charged 2 el for half-ogre instead of 1 for a total of 5)Silverbrow human(I think.. it gets confusing with him) that has like a 30 strength or something. He has 1 level of Crusader and 1 level of Marshall with Fighter thrown in the rest. We consider most templates to be tier 4's. Phrenic with magic in the blood is considered tier 3 and therefore you just lose 2 HD. Anyways. So, I did not take that feat. We also have a warlock combo of some sort that does like 6d6 unresistable damage that he resolved as a touch attack. Gets 2-3 attacks a round. I think he might be DFA/WARLOCK though I am unsure. The last member is a Beguiler with the ghost template. So like 5th level beguiler ghost.

As you can see.. the party is pretty powerful in its own right. I am the worst offender when it comes to optimization so I purposely chose to play a healer 20 on 1 side and then do some optimizing on the other so I could keep myself somewhat balanced. I also limited myself to 2 templates max with no magic in the blood (cheese as we like to call it).

Thanks so much for the responses. Apologies for the Wall of Text!

[shawshank]

I am beginning to think I have already hit up all the suggestions. Have like 35 views with no additional feedback. Well, if anyone thinks of anything please let me know. Maybe I could go 12 level of Adept for some additional spells. Maybe take warmage and Arcane Disciple to add some nice domain spells? Oh well, I will keep thinking on it.

Any ideas... LET ME KNOW!

[AvatarVecna]

Unarmed Swordage//Battle Dancer is a decent melee combo: you get lots of options, and yet because they're all focused around unarmed melee combat, they'll never be powerful enough to warrant bumping you up a tier, even though both of them are high-T4 classes.

[shawshank]

Unarmed Swordage//Battle Dancer is a decent melee combo: you get lots of options, and yet because they're all focused around unarmed melee combat, they'll never be powerful enough to warrant bumping you up a tier, even though both of them are high-T4 classes.

Thanks for your input. Everywhere I have read, however, states that swordsage(unarmed variant included) is tier 3. All the TOB classes are tier 3 so therefore I can not use it.

Thanks!

P.S. - Also the Battle Dancer is Tier 5.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Include Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 2, take one or more levels of [i]anything that gets arcane spellcasting (Warmage 1, for example), and get Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 to add your Cha bonus to your AC as a Dodge bonus. So you'll get your Cha bonus to AC and saving throws, and your Wis bonus to your AC. Take Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and you'll be able to spend two Warmage spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including spells you've learned from another class.

[Demidos]

Magic in the Blood. Its a feat, but look at it. Look at your phrenic template. Look back at the feat. Cry tears of joy. Dang, you guys are pretty good. :smalleek:

Woodland archer would definitely add to your build (no pun intended), if you intend to go with an archer.

[shawshank]

Include Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) 2, take one or more levels of [i]anything that gets arcane spellcasting (Warmage 1, for example), and get Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 to add your Cha bonus to your AC as a Dodge bonus. So you'll get your Cha bonus to AC and saving throws, and your Wis bonus to your AC. Take Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and you'll be able to spend two Warmage spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including spells you've learned from another class.

Nice feedback. I also considered this route. Fortunately my DM is not very hung up on Alignment. He thinks of alignment as more of your morality. If you have a code, of course, you must stick to it. For example the knight's code or paladin code. However, the must be chaotic good vs lawful good etc he does not really enforce. So, more than likely, I would be able to accomplish the same cha to AC with just a dip in Battle Dancer. Having said that, a two-level dip into monk with the right style sounds very promising. I was already strongly considering a 1 level dip. I have also decided to do a 1-level dip into contemplative on the healer side and will be taking the Good domain to add some anti-evil damage to my arsenal. I am thinking of doing something like this.

8 - Healer8//master4/phrenic2/paly2
9 - Healer9//master4/phrenic2/paly2/Monk1
10 - Healer 10//master4/phrenic2/paly2/Monk1/Monk 2
11 - Healer 10/Contemplative1//master4/phrenic2/paly2/Monk1/Monk2/Battle Dancer 1

From 12-20 I will go back to healer on the left side of the gestalt. For the right I am struggling again. I could go more paladin and pick up Turn Undead to get some divine feats or to power some devotion feats. I could also pick up a bit of divine metamagic though at this late it would be limited to a couple persisted or quickened spells per day. Nothing wrong with a persisted vigorous aura or a quickened heal etc.

Still, there is nothing wrong with 11 levels of paladin. Adds additional support options and if I am doing my math right, I would end up with a 17 BAB ((11 from paly 11) + (3 from Master 4) + (1 From healer 2) + (1 from Monk 2) + (1 from Battle Dancer1)) which would allow me to hit fairly often especially with Zen Archery figured in. I may not do a ton of damage but I could still contribute decently with +5 from knowledge devotion and +5 from VOP weapon. Add the Bard buffs of +6/+6 and 6d6 from dragonfire inspiration(when not resisted) and its at least noticeable damage from a 90% support/buffer character.

Ascetic Knight feat could really shine here.

Thanks guys! Keep it coming!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Multiple class features named "AC Bonus" don't stack, because multiple unnamed bonuses from from the same source (same name = same source) don't stack. So if you go Monk 1/ Battle Dancer 1, you would add either your Cha bonus or your Wis bonus to your AC, but not both.

[shawshank]

Multiple class features named "AC Bonus" don't stack, because multiple unnamed bonuses from from the same source (same name = same source) don't stack. So if you go Monk 1/ Battle Dancer 1, you would add either your Cha bonus or your Wis bonus to your AC, but not both.

I politely disagree with you. =) And so does my DM.

[LoyalPaladin]

I politely disagree with you. =) And so does my DM.
Actually, this is generally the case. If it shares a name, it will almost never stack. However, I think I remember seeing something about Battle Dancer's AC stacking because it was a dodge bonus. I could be wrong.

[shawshank]

Actually, this is generally the case. If it shares a name, it will almost never stack. However, I think I remember seeing something about Battle Dancer's AC stacking because it was a dodge bonus. I could be wrong.

The monk bonus was insight and the battle dancer was dodge even thought it was based on cha which is odd. It has been changed over time to just be a plain untyped "bonus". My DM and I noted that the ninja class specifically states it does not stack with Monk as a reason for this one TO stack. Also, the fact that they are based on totally different ability scores and the "fluff" as non-rule as it is... is very different. Also, it's two tier 5 classes. And it is based off cha/wis which adds to mad in general. If it was some sort of cleric, wizard, (insert tier1, tier2) combo then I would be more strict in interpretation... but even if it is RAW and RAI bad classes like monk and battle dancer and Healer for that matter need all the love and generous interpretation they can get in order to just be competitive.

But it is all opinion anyways. Even the developers of the game themselves get rules questions wrong... alarmingly often.

[HughJ]

Magic in the Blood. Its a feat, but look at it. Look at your phrenic template. Look back at the feat. Cry tears of joy. Dang, you guys are pretty good. :smalleek:

Woodland archer would definitely add to your build (no pun intended), if you intend to go with an archer.

I'm the DM for this game, so thank you. I've been trying to balance things around the tier 3 level of play. Everything I've read about MitB+phrenic screams t3 or, possibly t2. I'd be glad to post the other characters for feedback if anyone was interested in seeing how our experiment looks.