The Evangelist: What's the catch?

[Unbodied]

So I recently became aware of the Evangelist prestige class and to my noob eyes it looks to good to be true which means it probably is and there's something I'm missing.

I'm talking about the Aligned Class ability. I became aware of it when helping a friend look for multiclass options for the Swashbuckler class and saw this in a guide:



You only give up one level of your class progression, for 10 levels of the Prestige Class. These are 3/4th BAB levels, though, so consider it wisely.


Aligned Class (Ex)

Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.


So if I'm getting this right by taking the Evangelist class you basically get everything you would have gotten from taking levels in your main class and you get Evangelist stuff on top of that, with the only downside being that you get the low BAB of the Evangelist class and miss out on one level of your main class? Is that really what it does or is there something that I and the guide missed?

[ghanjrho]

Well, you don't get Favored Class. And none of the base Evangelist stuff is really all that great. And of course, if you don't fulfil your devotion on the morning, you lose it all for the day. Even your aligned class.

[The Vagabond]

Nope- but you don't get much, either. A quick advancement for your Deific Obedience SLA, a loss of 1/HP per level (Like a permanant -2 to con), Two languages, +2 dodge bonus, and two class skills.
Roughly equal to Two traits, a poor feat, and a really, really bad feat. Deific Obediance is the big thing, however- Some are better than class features. Otherwise, it's decent. Not spectacular, but decent.

[AvatarVecna]

The catch? Let's see: it requires either high BAB (and gives you medium BAB), high skills (and gives you less than the rogue gets), or high casting (and gives up a caster level). Furthermore, with the possible exception of the Divine Boons and the capstone, and the definite exception of the class feature advancement, most of these abilities are pretty lackluster, and you only get them if you spend an hour every day dancing for your god like the puppet you are. I mean really, +2 AC when not FF? A bonus language? +4 bonus to skill checks you have no ranks in? It's like you multiclassed into a totally gimped version of a Bard that gets no spellcasting; the only real benefit is that you still get your old class features on top of your new ****ty ones.

That said, Here's what I would change to make this a more balanced class overall: firstly, change the class feature advancement to be 7/10; secondly, make all saves good, to better encourage entry for a wider variety of builds; thirdly, make the bonus languages and the AC bonus scale better (maybe the AC can be "you add your Charisma bonus as a holy/profane bonus to your AC, to a maximum of your Evangelist level"); fourthly, make the non-trained skill bonus equal to half your Evangelist level (minimum +1). This allows for a greater bonus at the end, a lower bonus to start with, and an actual progression (this is the same reason for the suggested AC change).

Note: these changes would make this class less optimal in general, but it makes the class more generally balanced, and gives it a niche ("it's like a little Bardic bonus for other classes that is better than multiclassing into bard").

[Unbodied]

Nope- but you don't get much, either. A quick advancement for your Deific Obedience SLA, a loss of 1/HP per level (Like a permanant -2 to con), Two languages, +2 dodge bonus, and two class skills.
Roughly equal to Two traits, a poor feat, and a really, really bad feat. Deific Obediance is the big thing, however- Some are better than class features. Otherwise, it's decent. Not spectacular, but decent.
Yeah I can see the issue now. It sounded good on paper but when looking closer there's not much extra. I thought it might be useful for a Psion since Students Robes would still let you get the Capstone ability but the loss of extra PP per level that psionic races get probably isn't worth it.

[Segev]

I'm kind-of amused by the notion of Thrallherd-Evangelist who preaches his own greatness.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm kind-of amused by the notion of Thrallherd-Evangelist who preaches his own greatness.

"And lo, the Lord did say unto his followers 'Fetch me some soda, I'm getting a bit parched'! And the followers wept, such was their joy at having a chance to serve the Lord! Can I get an 'amen'?"

[Oberon Kenobi]

You also lose out on two good saves, which could kinda suck depending on what your other class was.

On the other hand, I'm sure some people will tell ya that you can use Evangelist to continue advancing another prestige class, like with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster back in 3.5. So you could theoretically get more Mystic Theurge levels and consequently be casting level 9 arcane and divine spells by level 20. Personally I've never found that argument valid, but figured I'd bring it up.

Thrallherd Evangelist is pretty hilarious (http://cdn.meme.am/instances/54910691.jpg), though. :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

You also lose out on two good saves, which could kinda suck depending on what your other class was.

On the other hand, I'm sure some people will tell ya that you can use Evangelist to continue advancing another prestige class, like with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster back in 3.5. So you could theoretically get more Mystic Theurge levels and consequently be casting level 9 arcane and divine spells by level 20. Personally I've never found that argument valid, but figured I'd bring it up.

Thrallherd Evangelist is pretty hilarious (http://cdn.meme.am/instances/54910691.jpg), though. :smallbiggrin:

In regards to PrCs that advance another classes class features, I think that the rules on it are pretty undefined; because of this, there's a decent argument both by RAW and RAI, that it does or does not work, making it largely a matter of opinion or DM judgement. I think the strict RAW reading is that gain class features "as if" you'd gained another level in that class implies that you're not breaking the level limits on PrCs.

Just my two coppers, so take it for what it's worth.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Yeah, I get the argument there. My personal reading of the RAW and RAI is that you can't "act as if" gaining another level in a class if there aren't any more levels to act as... if. But that's a can of worms that's waaay past its sell-by date. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

With regards to the "1 hour worship session" every day, that ties into the Deific Obedience feat, which also loses all the fancy benefits if you don't do it.
Depending on deity, some 'worships' are stupid simple, and some of the abilities are worth the effort (as for how much "simple" and "worth it" overlap...your mileage may vary).

Mechanically, I find Evangelist is most worth it for classes with few/no Prestige options and full arcane casters, and is least worth it for Martial-types.
It is also stupid-easy to meet the entry requirements.
*Alchemist/Summoner/Witch don't have much in the way of PrC options. The Alchemist has 2 (one of which is horrendously bad), the Witch has 1 (which is archetype specific), and Summoner doesn't have any. If you want a way to expand your options a little and not completely tank your main class, then this is a decent enough choice.
*Sorcerer/Witch/Wizard: Evangelist functions as a 'mini-gish' class. It'll bump your Bab to 3/4, and Skills up to 6. The loss of good Will save is offset some by the fact you had a good Will save to start with.
*Full Bab classes don't have much reason to go here. They lose Bab and the Saves aren't much of a bonus (most Full Bab would wind up switching Fort for Reflex, and that isn't the best trade, if it was good Will save maybe...).

[ghanjrho]

What's the other alchemist option? I know of Master Chymist, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as horrendously bad. Disappointing, yes.

[Extra Anchovies]

What's the other alchemist option? I know of Master Chymist, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as horrendously bad. Disappointing, yes.

It's only disappointing because it doesn't advance Vivisectionist sneak attack, really. Being able to use mutagen more times without having to stop for an hour to brew it more times is really nice, and the flat +6 to damage is great too. It's one of the good Paizo PrCs, along with Winter Witch and Mammoth Rider.

[grarrrg]

What's the other alchemist option? I know of Master Chymist, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as horrendously bad. Disappointing, yes.

Thuvian Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist)
It can be entered by Alchemists, Arcane casters, and Investigators (although it was released before Investigators existed, it still works).
From the Alchemist point of view, it is _almost_ a strict down-grade from just taking more levels of Alchemist. There are a couple features that would be nice in the right situation, but generally "eh".
From the Arcane Caster side it looks MUCH better (it has 10/10 casting advancement), to the point where I'm convinced it was designed to be a Wizard PrC with "alchemist flavor", and then some guy said "Hey! We could make this advance extracts too!", and then they promptly did nothing to improve it for Alchemist entry.
I suppose it would work OK for Investigators, as it would expand their options a touch.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Master Chymist is good for the builds not taking vivisectionist (they don't like the fluff, GM won't allow it, etc). After all, a little switch-hitting never hurt, and nobody ever complained they have too many bombs.

[animewatcha]

Take a spontaneous caster in which you could give a flip about the 20th level capstone. Combine this prestige class with the magical training from one of the guild things ( I can't remember correctly, but you try to gain fame and prestige points ) that gives your level of spellcasting back ( for spontaneous this includes spells known ).

[Unbodied]

Take a spontaneous caster in which you could give a flip about the 20th level capstone. Combine this prestige class with the magical training from one of the guild things ( I can't remember correctly, but you try to gain fame and prestige points ) that gives your level of spellcasting back ( for spontaneous this includes spells known ).

I'm playing as a Psion. I thought it might work pretty well since Students Robes would still let me get the Capstone ability.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm playing as a Psion. I thought it might work pretty well since Students Robes would still let me get the Capstone ability.

Can we get a source on that item?

[Slithery D]

It's in Ultimate Psionics, gives you 4 levels for determining class abilities.

[Unbodied]

It's in Ultimate Psionics, gives you 4 levels for determining class abilities.

Pretty sure its 5.

Only works on Psion's though.

[AvatarVecna]

I think there's a similar item for Sorcerers, although I can't recall what it is (some kind of robe, perhaps).

[Doc_Maynot]

Pretty sure its 5.

Only works on Psion's though.

Confirming that the Student's Robes on pg 424 make psions act as 5 levels higher for your discipline abilities, and if you have multiple, you must select one.


I think there's a similar item for Sorcerers, although I can't recall what it is (some kind of robe, perhaps).

Robe of Arcane Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-arcane-heritage)