Single-Dipping into Monk for Saving Throws

[Jay R]

Has anybody ever considered taking a single level of monk just because it is better for saving throws overall than any level of any other class?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Monk 2 is actually a really decent dip in a lot of melee builds, it has quite a few ACF that allows a lot of customization.

[Curmudgeon]

Favored Soul also has all good saves.

[emeraldstreak]

Has anybody ever considered taking a single level of monk just because it is better for saving throws overall than any level of any other class?


I did it back in the day to make the fastest character to undefeated Great Renown on the Core Coliseum, but at the time many 3.5 splats weren't yet released.

[Urpriest]

+2 to all saves isn't really worth it. In general you want to make use of at least some of the other benefits (bonus feats, AC bonus) before dipping Monk.

[emeraldstreak]

+2 to all saves isn't really worth it. In general you want to make use of at least some of the other benefits (bonus feats, AC bonus) before dipping Monk.

Well...it depends.

For example, that arena champ I mentioned, officially a Cleric of the Many-Faced God (before GoT was all the rage) started at lvl 3 per the rules of the CoCo and had a level of cleric, monk, and psywarrior each.

The cleric had Travel and Magic domains and provided Freedom of Movement (a key defense for arenas or even in general) and ability to use divine/arcane consumables.

The psywarrior mostly provided the alpha strike.

The monk mostly provided saves, in addition to the highest saves race I could get at the time: a dwarf from Core, not the normal one, but Deep for even more save against magic.

Against most opponents, this character went invisibility/fly into flying charge and kill them, or even cheaper things to save on consumables; and if needed he could do a ton of other things including save-or-suck spells. But it didn't have the power to hard-shutdown a smart magic user, so I needed the saves as a soft counter.

Eventually, when more splats came out, I was able to transition to even more powerful builds that outright defeated magic, no rolling saves at all. Obviously, they don't use monk.

[ComaVision]

For saves, I prefer a Paladin dip to Monk since Divine Grace scales with more Charisma.

It's a nice extra if I need some feats and don't need full BaB though.

[Kurald Galain]

Has anybody ever considered taking a single level of monk just because it is better for saving throws overall than any level of any other class?

I find that there are a lot of classes with two out of three good saves, and better class features than a monk. For example, dipping into cleric gives you two good saves, two domain abilities (and there are some excellent choices there), some buff spells and a small amount of channel energy.

[martixy]

For certain builds where I want Evasion I find the +3 base saves + Evasion + feats very compelling for a 2-level dip.

[Hiro Quester]

I dipped monk on a Druid, for unarmed strikes (Kung fu panda) improved grapple, and monk AAC bonus. Better saves was nice too, but I wouldn't do it only for that reason.

[bean illus]

For certain builds where I want Evasion I find the +3 base saves + Evasion + feats very compelling for a 2-level dip.


Human for one feat
1st level for one feat
Martial Rogue for two feats
Monk Passive way for two feats
Fighter for two feats
3rd and 6th level feats

BAB 4, but great saves, and 10 feats at level 6 makes a great AoA tripper. Probably overkill.

I never figured out the best thing to top it with. Maybe just straight Duskblade? lol

[Geddy2112]

Druids can gain a lot from a single dip in monk. Mostly because their wis mod will be better than most armor they can wear without serious enhancement, and because they need the wild enchantment to gain benefits from armor when wild shaped. Pathfinder in particular allows for some seriously awesome combinations. Clerics and other wis based classes benefit, but to a lesser degree.

[Greenish]

The saves are nice, but I wouldn't consider dipping just for that. Luckily enough, Monk 1 also grants you two feats, and 4+Int of some fairly decent skills. It's not a caster, but I have utilized it on occasion. I prefer Monk 2, though, for another feat and Evasion.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Cleric 1 is a far stronger dip. It gives you +2 to the saves that actually matter, along with spells and access to divine wands and scrolls, plus turn undead to power divine feats and the domains, and all their assorted powerful options.

I've never met anyone who's well-versed in 3E or PF who gets terribly excited over a Reflex save boost. The ones that will auto-kill you or make you kill your friends are so much more important.

[ericgrau]

That's primarily in theoretical discussion because people say "Well fort and will are the insta-killers, that's worse than getting hurt". There was a RHoD campaign where Saph noticed that reflex killed the most often in that module. Probably because reflex hits multi-target, so even though it may not kill you in 1 hit, it hits you way more often. Monsters tend to have less insta-kills than PCs too and often with lower save DCs or more of a reversible disable than a kill. On the flipside monsters tend to be more resistant/immune to insta-kills.

It's not just about the saves though and saves usually wouldn't be enough to warrant a dip. There are other abilities to consider on all the dips suggested. Cleric is nice.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Human for one feat
1st level for one feat
Martial Rogue for two feats
Monk Passive way for two feats
Fighter for two feats
3rd and 6th level feats

BAB 4, but great saves, and 10 feats at level 6 makes a great AoA tripper. Probably overkill.

I never figured out the best thing to top it with. Maybe just straight Duskblade? lol

Cleric 1 for a few more feats. Several domains grant feats outright, while others can be traded for Devotion feats. Human Paragon 3 will retroactively make one skill count as a class skill for every class, give a +2 to an ability score, a bonus feat, and advance the cleric casting. Finish off with a prestige class of choice.

[Telonius]

A one- or two-level dip in Monk is nicest if you're playing a primarily melee character. Not necessarily for the saves, though they are nice; but for the skill list and bonus feats. Especially if you're using the Fighting Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) variants, you can pick whichever style gets you the feats you want. For a Fighter, Overwhelming Attack mixes nicely with Shock Trooper, and you get a lot more skill points than you would have if you take the class before your Fighter levels. Rogues (typically feat-starved) can take Sleeping Tiger for Weapon Finesse and get a minor bonus to Hide. There are trade-offs; a Fighter would lose a point of BAB and a couple hit points, and a Rogue would lose out on some skill points (more if you take Monk first; you should avoid this if possible).

[bean illus]

Human for one feat
1st level for one feat
Martial Rogue for two feats
Monk Passive way for two feats
Fighter for two feats
3rd and 6th level feats

BAB 4, but great saves, and 10 feats at level 6 makes a great AoA tripper. Probably overkill.

I never figured out the best thing to top it with. Maybe just straight Duskblade? lol


Cleric 1 for a few more feats. Several domains grant feats outright, while others can be traded for Devotion feats. Human Paragon 3 will retroactively make one skill count as a class skill for every class, give a +2 to an ability score, a bonus feat, and advance the cleric casting. Finish off with a prestige class of choice.

I think the time domain gives Extend. But i have to remind that Cleric and Paragon both lose a BAB, and the PRC probably does also. 15 BAB on a character with 10 battle feats seem ..counterproductive? You could probably buff with Extend to make up the difference.

That's one of the reasons I mentioned Duskblade. High HP, Full BAB, and spells, as well as Arcane Channeling and Armored Mage, and Quick Casting... Not TO but I bet it could be made useful. Remember that Rogue had UMD, and you have Feats which means Able Learner, and DB is an int caster so you have the points. Take Rogue first, and 6th and you don't even have to waste a cross class point till 7th level or after. Max UMD is a thing to behold.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I think the time domain gives Extend. But i have to remind that Cleric and Paragon both lose a BAB, and the PRC probably does also. 15 BAB on a character with 10 battle feats seem ..counterproductive? You could probably buff with Extend to make up the difference.

That's one of the reasons I mentioned Duskblade. High HP, Full BAB, and spells, as well as Arcane Channeling and Armored Mage, and Quick Casting... Not TO but I bet it could be made useful. Remember that Rogue had UMD, and you have Feats which means Able Learner, and DB is an int caster so you have the points. Take Rogue first, and 6th and you don't even have to waste a cross class point till 7th level or after. Max UMD is a thing to behold.

BAB won't be a problem once you get access to Divine Power. Take the Planning and Undeath domains and build up to Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell. Cloistered Cleric gets the Knowledge domain for free. Trade that for Knowledge Devotion to gain attack and damage bonuses on a successful knowledge check. These are standard cleric optimization choices that work perfectly fine on this type of character. This could be a pretty decent unarmed build.

[bean illus]

BAB won't be a problem once you get access to Divine Power. Take the Planning and Undeath domains and build up to Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell. Cloistered Cleric gets the Knowledge domain for free. Trade that for Knowledge Devotion to gain attack and damage bonuses on a successful knowledge check. These are standard cleric optimization choices that work perfectly fine on this type of character. This could be a pretty decent unarmed build.
Those are very standard cleric optimizations (love cloistered) But no one i know allows Persist. Extend is all we get.:smallmad:

[emeraldstreak]

I dug up some old posts, turns out the monk dip of the arena champion I talked about wasn't so much about saves, but grappling. Saves and other things like skills certainly played a role, however a secondary one.

Here's an example of order of combat:



Start at -30,0 with scrolls of Invisibility and Fly.

Cast Invisibility, cast Fly, get up and hover somewhere below the ceiling (50'). Draw the guisarme and use Dissolving Weapon (stone) on it. Go find the prince, staying near the ceiling. If he is nowhere to be seen, use See Invisibility scroll.

Once he is found, Enlarge(scroll), and draw True Strike scroll. Get in position for a dive charge and cast True Strike. He might try to break LoS if he hears the castings - yet he doesn't know Almaar's exact location, so that might not be easy considering Almaar's high speed. True strike or not, dive charge him, using Psionic Weapon (don't forget dissolving weapon and enlarge). Then continue attacking with the guisarme using its enlarged reach(20') to stay untouchable above him (try to get AoOs if he tries sling shooting).

If he survives the Enlarge duration, use Hold Person from scroll, if successful approach and coup de grace. If not, fly away, cast Prot from Arrows (scroll), and pepper him with arrows, keeping maximum distance so that his sling is badly penalized.

-if Fly is about to end and he is still alive, dive charge with guisarme, move within 5', manifest Iron Grip defensively and try to initiate a grapple. Grapple for damage, using Flurry of Blows for two grapple attempts per round. Try a second Iron Grip manifestation when the first is up (2 rounds), without breaking the grapple (Concentration DC 21).

Contingency 1: Invisibility scroll doesn't work fast enough and he arrives within 25 ft. Use Cause Fear (5' step or defensive casting, if needed to avoid AoOs). If Cause Fear fails, grapple (see above).

Contingency 2: Fly scroll explodes. Use Dissolving Weapon on guisarme, then Enlarge. Find him (cast See Invisibility if needed), charge with psionic weapon guisarme. Then grapple (see above).


Apparently, Evasion was not a factor, as by lvl 5 the character was Monk 1/Cleric 2/Psywarrior 2 (http://community.wizards.com/comment/24860741#comment-24860741) as opposed to, say, Will (as the presence of Empty Mind suggest). At any rate Fort and Will are very high from the start: high enough to fail against consumable magic on natural 1 only, which greatly reduces all threat from non-dedicated spellcasting.