Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail - must have, or am I missing something?

[T.G. Oskar]

While revising my guide for the Pathfinder Paladin for new content and also doing the same for the Inquisitor, I stumbled upon a very interesting weapon - one that seems TOO good to be true, and my senses started to tingle.

For the uninitiated: the Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fleshwarped-scorpion-s-tail) is a +1 scorpion whip (as a whip, but lets you deal lethal damage; you can use it without properties as a performance weapon or as a whip that deals lethal damage if you're proficient with whips) that has a 3/day ability to apply poison to the target. So far, so good - specific magical weapons are rare, and as things go, it's not that bad.

However, here's where things got weird: it has a second paragraph explaining that you can attach it to someone (with 1 hour of surgery and a DC 20 Heal check, the beneficiary taking 1d4 Con damage in the process) and make it a natural sting attack that deals the same damage as the weapon, with the enhancement bonus and poison effects tacked on top. Now, normally, this might not seem as much, but as far as I reckon, the rules for natural attacks state that you can attack with weapons and use your natural attacks as secondary natural attacks (with a -5 penalty)...therefore giving you a free attack every turn on a full attack. Attacks with natural weapons are typically separate from TWF or extra attacks granted by Haste, so it's a legitimate extra attack. Going by the most conservative reading (the natural sting attack doesn't have reach, nor it can be used to trip as a normal whip, and you only get the +1 base enhancement bonus), it's still a boon for characters who depend on multiple attacks.

Thus, I want confirmation - is this viable? Why the weapon isn't mentioned constantly as a must-have item? Sure, it can be a bit expensive, but it's still under 10k, and as things go, 10k for a free attack that ignores DR as a magic weapon is almost a freebie. I have the impression that I must be missing something (maybe it was errata'ed?), because otherwise it's a formidable recommendation for many characters (i.e. Rogues with high attack bonuses, Inquisitors, Slayers, probably Investigators, maybe even Magi). With a more liberal interpretation (any enhancement you add to the weapon counts towards the natural attack's properties, the potential for reach) it's probably THE weapon to have, but even with the conservative interpretation it's still something I'd consider for various melee builds.

[Greenish]

I'm not seeing anything saying you can only have one of those attached at the time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Minor correction, the 9505 GP tag is for creating the item, the actual price is 18505, a lot pricier which shifts from "decent buy" to luxury item, specially if you aren't using it as primary weapon.

Edit: Given what I've read about the Kineticist they might consider getting it grafted, given their con-focus the DC ought to be decent. Veil-shapers probably can make decent use of it, though I can't recall if they are Con based as Incarnum classes were.

[Mithril Leaf]

Minor correction, the 9505 GP tag is for creating the item, the actual price is 18505, a lot pricier which shifts from "decent buy" to luxury item, specially if you aren't using it as primary weapon.

Edit: Given what I've read about the Kineticist they might consider getting it grafted, given their con-focus the DC ought to be decent. Veil-shapers probably can make decent use of it, though I can't recall if they are Con based as Incarnum classes were.

The Veil-Weavers aren't as Con heavy as they were, but still like a hefty buffer of it. I would recommend it for anyone with Sneak Attack focus though, such as the Vivisectionist Alchemist.

[upho]

Considering that you can for example get a gore attack that also counts as magic, along with a few other features, for 10,000 gp less and without the need of any surgery (Helm of the Mammoth Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/helm-of-the-mammoth-lord)), I don't really see the "must have" of the Scorpion's Tail. Unless you're focusing on natural attacks and thus want as many primary ones as possible (AFAIK, the only other good option to get a sting attack is to be a Synth), the Tail attached and used as a sting only has the weapon enhancement bonus "carry-over", its slotless/limbless nature and poison going for it. And AFAICT only more specialized builds (perhaps a super high Con build) would gain anything significant from the poison, making this relatively expensive item a secondary or tertiary high level choice rather than a primary low level choice of "add a natural attack"-item for most other builds. But sure, for most melee builds, spending 18.5k for an additional attack at -5 which doesn't require a free hand or magic item slot is definitely not a bad idea.

Re: the interpretations, I believe the following is RAW for the surgically attached "whip-as-sting":

No reach, trip or any other scorpion whip weapon properties since the text says the natural attack gained is a "sting attack", full stop. As sting attacks don't have any inherent properties besides "primary natural", all other whip weapon properties (and anything else whip related, such as feats) other than those specifically mentioned (enhancement bonus and poison 3/day) does not apply.
The enhancement bonus of the whip, at the time it was attached, also apply to the sting attack. Once attached, the whip has become a sting and can thus only be further enhanced as a natural attack (through an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, for example). All magic weapon special abilities the whip had (if any) are lost. The sting can of course be removed, further enhanced as a whip and then re-attached again.

Going by this, I'd say the greatest generally applicable advantage of an attached Scorpion's Tail is the unique ability to enhance it as a separate weapon. Although this requires surgery (additional healing/time to overcome the Con damage, someone with a Heal skill high enough etc), for any build not specifically focused on natural attacks or unarmed strikes, especially in higher levels it's a LOT cheaper than buying or further enhancing an item applying to natural attacks (like an AoMF). And for, say, a high Con build which can make good use of the poison and already focuses on natural attacks (such as a beast barb, or abyssal or draconic bloodrager), this item is pretty damn awesome.

[T.G. Oskar]

Considering that you can for example get a gore attack that also counts as magic, along with a few other features, for 10,000 gp less and without the need of any surgery (Helm of the Mammoth Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/helm-of-the-mammoth-lord)), I don't really see the "must have" of the Scorpion's Tail. Unless you're focusing on natural attacks and thus want as many primary ones as possible (AFAIK, the only other good option to get a sting attack is to be a Synth), the Tail attached and used as a sting only has the weapon enhancement bonus "carry-over", its slotless/limbless nature and poison going for it. And AFAICT only more specialized builds (perhaps a super high Con build) would gain anything significant from the poison, making this relatively expensive item a secondary or tertiary high level choice rather than a primary low level choice of "add a natural attack"-item for most other builds. But sure, for most melee builds, spending 18.5k for an additional attack at -5 which doesn't require a free hand or magic item slot is definitely not a bad idea.

I reckon that I overstepped on the price, but the underlined statement is what makes it special. The Helm of the Mammoth Lord requires sacrificing your head slot for a cheaper natural attack, when you could have better stuff based on your class. Of course, it's good as a mid-level item (unless you find the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier a better option), but it'll eventually get replaced. The FSW, being slotless, implies you can keep it with all the other weapons (though it'll imply spending a bit of your WBL). Note, also, that unless you have (Greater) Magic Fang nearby, you can't improve the traits of the helm, even if it normally counts as a magical weapon. I can grant you that the Helm is superior for a Ranger or Hunter, and even then, it's limited in focus (though, as another plus, the creatures which the item affects are some of the strongest animals in the game).

The poison isn't even the most important aspect, but it's nice to add it. I mean - that automatically disqualifies the Paladin from adding it, because of the poison property (well, perhaps you can have it as long as you never use the poison in the first place).


Re: the interpretations, I believe the following is RAW for the surgically attached "whip-as-sting":

No reach, trip or any other scorpion whip weapon properties since the text says the natural attack gained is a "sting attack", full stop. As sting attacks don't have any inherent properties besides "primary natural", all other whip weapon properties (and anything else whip related, such as feats) other than those specifically mentioned (enhancement bonus and poison 3/day) does not apply.
The enhancement bonus of the whip, at the time it was attached, also apply to the sting attack. Once attached, the whip has become a sting and can thus only be further enhanced as a natural attack (through an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, for example). All magic weapon special abilities the whip had (if any) are lost. The sting can of course be removed, further enhanced as a whip and then re-attached again.


Hmmm...have you considered the repercussions of the second interpretation? What you're mentioning is the more conservative approach (RAW or otherwise - that the conservative approach is supported by RAW and the item still has worth is what makes it impressive), but the second interpretation does lead to an interesting combination: enchant the item to +5, then make the Amulet/Bodywrap provide up to +7 worth of weapon special qualities. The enhancement bonus would overlap (thus you use the highest one, being the +5), but you'd still get the special qualities of the amulet/bodywrap. I figure it might not fly (the closest interpretation on that matter would be the Bracers of Armor, negating the benefit of the amulet/bodywrap as it would have the lower enhancement bonus, or perhaps negate the +5 by having the higher effective enhancement bonus), but if it does, it can lead to a superb synergy only restrained by price.


And for, say, a high Con build which can make good use of the poison and already focuses on natural attacks (such as a beast barb, or abyssal or draconic bloodrager), this item is pretty damn awesome.

Anyone who can impose debuffs reliably also counts. Never underestimate the effect of a Prayer spell and the stacking penalties of shaken and sickened. That adds up. A Crown of Conquest + a Cruel weapon on a demoralize build can make some serious effect on a creature with a decent, albeit not spectacular, Fortitude save without depending much on Constitution; on one with insane Con, it goes even further.

[Azoth]

Is their a limit to how many of these you can graft onto yourself? Is there a hard limit to the number of sting natural attacks a character can have?

If not, I may have found a fun use for my Mystic Theurge cohort...

[upho]

I reckon that I overstepped on the price, but the underlined statement is what makes it special. The Helm of the Mammoth Lord requires sacrificing your head slot for a cheaper natural attack, when you could have better stuff based on your class. Of course, it's good as a mid-level item (unless you find the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier a better option), but it'll eventually get replaced. The FSW, being slotless, implies you can keep it with all the other weapons (though it'll imply spending a bit of your WBL). Note, also, that unless you have (Greater) Magic Fang nearby, you can't improve the traits of the helm, even if it normally counts as a magical weapon. I can grant you that the Helm is superior for a Ranger or Hunter, and even then, it's limited in focus (though, as another plus, the creatures which the item affects are some of the strongest animals in the game).Well, you're right, I think - about you somewhat overstating its low price as well as me understating the benefits of its upgradable nature. But regarding the slotless nature, I believe that you can indeed have several magic item properties in the same slot (such as a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier), the "only" drawback being that you pay 1.5 x the listed price for all items cheaper than the most expensive one occupying the same slot (so the Jingasa would be 50% more expensive in this case). Of course, me being rather unimpressed by the slotless nature does not take any potential abuse of attaching several FSWs into account...


The poison isn't even the most important aspect, but it's nice to add it. I mean - that automatically disqualifies the Paladin from adding it, because of the poison property (well, perhaps you can have it as long as you never use the poison in the first place).I agree, although it is a nifty feature for high Con builds (not pallys, though), making the FSW a slightly more attractive option for such builds.


Hmmm...have you considered the repercussions of the second interpretation? What you're mentioning is the more conservative approach (RAW or otherwise - that the conservative approach is supported by RAW and the item still has worth is what makes it impressive), but the second interpretation does lead to an interesting combination: enchant the item to +5, then make the Amulet/Bodywrap provide up to +7 worth of weapon special qualities. The enhancement bonus would overlap (thus you use the highest one, being the +5), but you'd still get the special qualities of the amulet/bodywrap. I figure it might not fly (the closest interpretation on that matter would be the Bracers of Armor, negating the benefit of the amulet/bodywrap as it would have the lower enhancement bonus, or perhaps negate the +5 by having the higher effective enhancement bonus), but if it does, it can lead to a superb synergy only restrained by price.Just to be clear, my two-point list was not intended to be read as two separate possible interpretations of the RAW, but rather two aspects/effects of the RAW (I also think the RAW is pretty clear on these effects). Re the overlapping/combined bonuses when used with AoMF/BWoMS, note that the AoMF cannot be enchanted to a total bonus higher than +5, but doesn't need a +1 enhancement bonus in order to gain special abilities. Which means that RAW, you could combine an AoMF with +5 worth of special abilities and a FSW with a +10 total worth of enhancement bonuses (max +5) and special abilities. But even if can indeed get superb synergy with a few special abilities not dependent on attacking or dealing damage with the weapon, I think there are very few combinations that would give benefits significant enough to make it worth the costs. Maybe if for a high level natural attack build using a BWoMS though...?

EDIT: I totally forgot special abilities are lost when the FSW is attached, meaning I think the potential gain of combining it with an AoMF is too small to motivate the additional costs in virtually every case. /EDIT


Anyone who can impose debuffs reliably also counts. Never underestimate the effect of a Prayer spell and the stacking penalties of shaken and sickened. That adds up. A Crown of Conquest + a Cruel weapon on a demoralize build can make some serious effect on a creature with a decent, albeit not spectacular, Fortitude save without depending much on Constitution; on one with insane Con, it goes even further.Exactly. Though as a sidenote I wouldn't have anything but a serious crit-fishing build spend money on a Crown of Conquest (the Intimidate bonus is rather wasted on most well-built demoralizers due to "must-have" stuff like Intimidating Prowess and Soulless Gaze). And I believe the typical penalties wouldn't be shaken and sickened with a good Str-based (Cornugon Smash) demoralize build, but rather panicked and sickened!

[upho]

Is their a limit to how many of these you can graft onto yourself? Is there a hard limit to the number of sting natural attacks a character can have?

If not, I may have found a fun use for my Mystic Theurge cohort...LOL! Good question though. The number of sting attacks a creature can have is normally limited to the number of tails you have, but as the FSW seems to attach both the stinger and the tail delivering the attack...? Strictly RAW, I actually don't think there's anything to prevent you from attaching several ones, though I don't think many DMs would allow it. Flavor-wise, I'd pity your poor many-tailed cohort...