Excellent Caster Build, please help?

[Laetir]

So, I have a friend, I'm sure you'd all love him, who insists that Fighters are much more powerful than casters, to the point that casters are obsolete with fighters in the party, and completely useless without them:smallamused:. Now, I'm not claiming that fighters are useless by any means, but the fact he has been on this particular soapbox for years, makes me want to show him what casters SHOULD be, instead of the sort of muddled mess that my other group members make when trying to optimize.

The problem I run into here, is that I am no kind of optimizer. I don't have any idea how to do it, and am always humbled by what I read here. A very serious caveat to that, however, is that I am very much a roleplayer, and am not willing to do a bunch of ludicrous 1 level dips into other classes with no justification from my back story. I hope that doesn't offend min/maxxers and optimizers, I've just always found it very silly.

So, if you're still listening at this point, here is what I hope to end up with:
-My character is helping to overthrow a corrupt emperor, who is a puppet to demons. We have the requisite McGuffins, and the true born emperor with us, and are ready to begin.
-My character's motivation is not to gain power for himself, nor to create a utopian society of goodness and light, but to restore the balance of this evil empire.
-To that end, I would like to end up as an Envoy of Balance. The starting class is not important to me, any caster that is created by Paizo is fine. Multi-classing is also fine, but as stated, I am not interested in a bunch of dips that can't be written easily into a back story.
-Feats, traits, skills, spells, race (again, Paizo or Kingdom of Kalimar source only) are in your hands in their entirety.
-There is Mystic Theurge in my party already (Wizard 5/Cleric 3/MT 3). I only mention this in case it is important. He's not particularly good at his job, and stepping on his toes doesn't bother me, because he is a cool guy and won't mind, and I really want to show him how you can optimize regardless of what my loud-mouth friend has to say about it.
-Above MT is also our only healer, so while I'm not trying to influence anyone's preferred brand of caster cheese, another cleric would probably be extremely appreciated by the rest of my group. Not enough that they're willing to roll one, naturally.

If you are willing to help me, then I thank you profusely. I have lurked on these boards for about 8 years, but this is my first ever post, so that you can help me do justice to the caster classes of Pathfinder. I imagine my second post will have something to do with the fact that my DM won't let me use my character's abilities RAW because this particular group has a serious prejudice against casters and we, as a team, will be helping them expand their comfort zone.

Thank you again, and I look forward with great anticipation of your replies.

[skypse]

So are you looking for a full caster that can smash things down like a fighter or are you looking for a full caster that does his job and outshines everything? Or maybe a full caster that tries to prove to his friend that he doesn't need a BSF to survive?

[Laetir]

So are you looking for a full caster that can smash things down like a fighter or are you looking for a full caster that does his job and outshines everything? Or maybe a full caster that tries to prove to his friend that he doesn't need a BSF to survive?

I think I mostly want to prove the usefulness of casters. Either as a pure damage dealer or as a utility/battlefield controller. Of the two, I prefer battlefield controller, but if you have something particularly delicious and evil in mind, feel free to run with it. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and I am quietly in love with counterspelling other casters, if that inspires you at all, but I'm not married to it.

Basically, I'm not going to say "No" to any good ideas :smallsmile:

[skypse]

What is your starting level? Judging from the Mystic Theurge you must create a character at level 11 right? In that case I would propose 3 routes.

1) Straight Conjurer wizard. Shift is pretty powerful for a practically AW ability and having 6th level spells only sweetens the deal. Black Tentacles, pit spells and clouds are your best friends as well as 1d4+1 Augmented Superior Archon Hounds every other round. 2 Rounds later, your fighter won't have any place to step on without squeezing through your army.

2) Only because you start at level 11, I would propose going Conjumancer. You specialize in Necromancy to get Power over Undead, but pick Spell focus (Conjuration). At level 10 you pick the Beyond Morality Discovery that lets you be whatever alignment you want to be and you start casting Animate Dead like a crazy bitch while being Lawful Good. Why? Because Magic > Morals. Soon enough you have a beautiful army so your party's fighter can go for vacation.

3) Summoner/Master Summoner/Unchained Broodmaster. 'Nuff said.

[Laetir]

What is your starting level? Judging from the Mystic Theurge you must create a character at level 11 right? In that case I would propose 3 routes.

1) Straight Conjurer wizard. Shift is pretty powerful for a practically AW ability and having 6th level spells only sweetens the deal. Black Tentacles, pit spells and clouds are your best friends as well as 1d4+1 Augmented Superior Archon Hounds every other round. 2 Rounds later, your fighter won't have any place to step on without squeezing through your army.

2) Only because you start at level 11, I would propose going Conjumancer. You specialize in Necromancy to get Power over Undead, but pick Spell focus (Conjuration). At level 10 you pick the Beyond Morality Discovery that lets you be whatever alignment you want to be and you start casting Animate Dead like a crazy bitch while being Lawful Good. Why? Because Magic > Morals. Soon enough you have a beautiful army so your party's fighter can go for vacation.

3) Summoner/Master Summoner/Unchained Broodmaster. 'Nuff said.

All excellent ideas, I knew I came to the right place. Thank you also, for your exceedingly fast replies!

If anyone else has any good ideas that they want to recommend, I should have posted initially that the starting level will probably be 12. My current character is level 11, and he has a Sword of Damocles over his head, so I expect him to be dead by 12, or 13 at the latest. Which is not a bad thing, I love all my characters, and I love all my new characters as well.


Also, would you care to elaborate a bit on any of your builds, such as useful feats, traits, or skills you think would be important to them?

I have several sessions to go before I need this character, I believe, so I am welcoming all ideas, please do feel free to keep them coming. Any bolts of inspiration that come to you, might likewise strike a chord in me.

[noob]

"a Sword of Damocles"
The true one?
Or are you just using an expression?
At least it is funny to put a sword of Damocles above players.

[Laetir]

"a Sword of Damocles"
The true one?
Or are you just using an expression?
At least it is funny to put a sword of Damocles above players.

I was using it as an expression. Actually it is an exotic drow poison which is resistant to magic cures. It is currently an excellent driving force in our campaign story, and I get the honor of being a fighter who failed a fortitude check and changed the focus of our story for a while. It's an excellent character growth opportunity, and I think the ultimate culmination of his death is the perfect way to end it.

I wasn't even aware there is a physical Sword of Damocles available in PF or 3.5. Sounds like an excellent idea though.:smallwink:

[Slithery D]

2) Only because you start at level 11, I would propose going Conjumancer. You specialize in Necromancy to get Power over Undead, but pick Spell focus (Conjuration). At level 10 you pick the Beyond Morality Discovery that lets you be whatever alignment you want to be and you start casting Animate Dead like a crazy bitch while being Lawful Good. Why? Because Magic > Morals. Soon enough you have a beautiful army so your party's fighter can go for vacation.


Beyond Morality Discovery doesn't do that at all!


Benefit(s): As long as you are neutral, you may choose to be treated as the most favorable alignment when affected by spells whose effects vary based on alignment (such as holy word). If you are neutral in relation to evil and good, you may choose to be treated as good or evil. If you are neutral in relation to chaos and law, you may choose to be treated as lawful or chaotic. You may only choose to be treated as one alignment type along a single axis at a time (for instance, if you were within the area of both a magic circle against evil spell and an unholy blight spell, you would have to choose to be either evil, good, or neutral for the purpose of determining the spells' effects).


The effects of Animate Dead don't vary based on alignment - it always raises dead, and it's always an evil spell. Casting it can change your alignment, but not because of the effects of the spell.

It's defensive, not a "get out of Hell free" card. For that you need the Beyond Morality Mythic Path ability, only available to 3rd-Tier mythic heros.


Beyond Morality (Ex): You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.

[noob]

White necromancer fix that making your undead exalted good aligned.
Also nothing forbids you from using create immortal.

[Laetir]

Good points, made by all. Speaking as someone who is intending to PrC into Envoy of Balance, I'm not that concerned by whether Animate Dead is evil or not. So, Conjumancer remains viable. However, if you had any alternatives, please feel free. :smallsmile:

[marphod]

I'm not very familiar with the Envoy of Balance (reading it now in another window), but in reference to other things:

Pathfinder reduced the power of a the 1 level dip schtick, both in as much as fewer base classes are quite as front loaded, and in as much as their are reasons to stay in a base class for more than a handful of levels. You can still do it for the right build, but it isn't the Always Right (except for some druids) answer that it is in 3.5.

It is hard to make a bad choice for a full caster type around 11th level. There are poor archetypes and you can always screw up a build, but any of the full casters can provide a good chassis. What you can do will be defined by your spell list and your other class abilities.

I'm not sure why the Envoy of Balance, if you're looking for Battlefield Control or Blaster roles. It looks more a Buffer or Minion based PrC to me. Although, the class abilities aren't strongly tied to any role.

If you're going EoB, you probably want to start with a class that can channel energy. Necromancer, Cleric, (Is there an oracle archetype that combines the Life and Bones mysteries?), Hex Channeler Witch, Sanctified Sorcerer, etc. (Given Spioritual Equilibrium and Twinned Channeling; on the other hand, taking those forces your hand to take Versatile Channeler and Selective Channeling)

Select your spells and class abilities carefully. At 11th level, if your 2 free 6th level spells (assuming Wizard/Witch/Non-spontaneous) are, say Age Resistance and Transfer Familiar, your effectiveness is significantly worse than Eyebite and Summon Monster VI. This is especially true for the Spontaneous Casters who have a known spells list.

[Laetir]

I'm not very familiar with the Envoy of Balance (reading it now in another window), but in reference to other things:

Pathfinder reduced the power of a the 1 level dip schtick, both in as much as fewer base classes are quite as front loaded, and in as much as their are reasons to stay in a base class for more than a handful of levels. You can still do it for the right build, but it isn't the Always Right (except for some druids) answer that it is in 3.5.

It is hard to make a bad choice for a full caster type around 11th level. There are poor archetypes and you can always screw up a build, but any of the full casters can provide a good chassis. What you can do will be defined by your spell list and your other class abilities.

I'm not sure why the Envoy of Balance, if you're looking for Battlefield Control or Blaster roles. It looks more a Buffer or Minion based PrC to me. Although, the class abilities aren't strongly tied to any role.

If you're going EoB, you probably want to start with a class that can channel energy. Necromancer, Cleric, (Is there an oracle archetype that combines the Life and Bones mysteries?), Hex Channeler Witch, Sanctified Sorcerer, etc. (Given Spioritual Equilibrium and Twinned Channeling; on the other hand, taking those forces your hand to take Versatile Channeler and Selective Channeling)

Select your spells and class abilities carefully. At 11th level, if your 2 free 6th level spells (assuming Wizard/Witch/Non-spontaneous) are, say Age Resistance and Transfer Familiar, your effectiveness is significantly worse than Eyebite and Summon Monster VI. This is especially true for the Spontaneous Casters who have a known spells list.

Good points. I don't know why I picked that particular Prestige Class, I just had an eye for it. Would you recommend something different if I wanted to do the battlefield mage type? An earlier poster recommended Conjuration specialist, and I've looked into it a bit. What do you think?

[skypse]

Beyond Morality Discovery doesn't do that at all!



The effects of Animate Dead don't vary based on alignment - it always raises dead, and it's always an evil spell. Casting it can change your alignment, but not because of the effects of the spell.

It's defensive, not a "get out of Hell free" card. For that you need the Beyond Morality Mythic Path ability, only available to 3rd-Tier mythic heros.
It actually is a "get out of Hell for free" card since even if you become Evil due to spamming an Evil spell, you can ALWAYS be the alignment you chose to be which mechanically (and flavory(??) ) can translate into "no I am not Evil, I choose to be neutral Good so I will spam even more Animate Dead and when my alignment changes again, I will be Neutral Good again because I say so"



Good points. I don't know why I picked that particular Prestige Class, I just had an eye for it. Would you recommend something different if I wanted to do the battlefield mage type? An earlier poster recommended Conjuration specialist, and I've looked into it a bit. What do you think?

Conjuration specialist is not an archetype and you can run it for full levels without needing to change. If you WANT to change to a PrC, you can go for Agent of the Grave which will again require you to be skeleton-friendly.

[grarrrg]

I'm not very familiar with the Envoy of Balance (reading it now in another window),

If you're going EoB, you probably want to start with a class that can channel energy. Necromancer, Cleric, (Is there an oracle archetype that combines the Life and Bones mysteries?), Hex Channeler Witch, Sanctified Sorcerer, etc. (Given Spioritual Equilibrium and Twinned Channeling; on the other hand, taking those forces your hand to take Versatile Channeler and Selective Channeling)

Out of all the options you listed, Cleric is pretty much the only viable choice.
Hex Channeler Witch doesn't advance Channeling the normal way, and thus wouldn't play nice with Envoy of Balance.
Oracles don't get to "choose", so they don't qualify for Versatile Channeler.
And I'm not entirely sure how Necromancers are supposed to interact with Versatile Channeler. Do they gain the ability to Channel all energies normally? Or only for the purposes of Command/Turn Undead? If the later it's kinda worthless. If the former it has potential.

That said, Selective Channeling both energies at once can be quite the handy combat tactic.

[Laetir]

Out of all the options you listed, Cleric is pretty much the only viable choice.
Hex Channeler Witch doesn't advance Channeling the normal way, and thus wouldn't play nice with Envoy of Balance.
Oracles don't get to "choose", so they don't qualify for Versatile Channeler.
And I'm not entirely sure how Necromancers are supposed to interact with Versatile Channeler. Do they gain the ability to Channel all energies normally? Or only for the purposes of Command/Turn Undead? If the later it's kinda worthless. If the former it has potential.

That said, Selective Channeling both energies at once can be quite the handy combat tactic.

That does actually sound cool. One of my previous characters for this campaign (Does it seem like I have a lot of them? You have no idea...) was a cleric of a war god, and he had selective channeling, which he could do as a swift action. Made a lot of fun combos, especially when he was in juggernaut mode. What would you recommend for a caster cleric, which will teach my friend what Tier 1 means?

[DMVerdandi]

That does actually sound cool. One of my previous characters for this campaign (Does it seem like I have a lot of them? You have no idea...) was a cleric of a war god, and he had selective channeling, which he could do as a swift action. Made a lot of fun combos, especially when he was in juggernaut mode. What would you recommend for a caster cleric, which will teach my friend what Tier 1 means?

If you want a caster cleric, How about an evangelist cleric of the void(Stars)domain.
Fluff as an astrologist sage whom is being commanded by the movement of the spheres themselves to make right the wrongs and correct the natural cosmic order.

It would be really awesome to have a sort of raving lunatic, talking about how the stars are telling him to bring balance to the world. It harkens to the philosophers of antiquity being seen as quacks ready to upset the status quo.


Cleric 10/Envoy of balance 10.

Metamagic that I suggest [Extend,empower,heighten,intensify]
Channel Feats that I suggest [Channel Ray, Channel smite]
Bardic performance feats I suggest [Extra performance +4]

Summoning spells are definitely suggested, as your evangelical performances will also benefit your summons. And don't forget that the role of cleric can be easily modified with your spell choices.

[Azoth]

Not to mention the fun that is having the right spell on hand by way of Summon Monster. It might actually be worth it to go Wizard 1/cleric5/EoB/10/cleric4. That way you can snag Academea Graduate and pull out your summons as standard actions instead of 1 round casts. It will also snag you shift a few times/day and an extra round of summon durations to make up for the lost round from the dip. This of course comes from Conjuration (teleportation) specialist as a you wiz level.

[Waker]

If you wanted a versatile spellcaster with a lot of BFC options, you might look into a Teleportation Conjurer/Collegiate Arcanist. Teleportation grants the useful Summoner's Charm and Shift abilities, while a Conjurer Wizard also has access to a wide variety of useful spells. The reason I suggest the Collegiate Arcanist is for a few reasons.
One is Halcyon Magic. Really take a look at the Druid spell list, it has a great deal of excellent spells. Lots of BFC options like Entangle or Soften Earth and Stone at low levels, buffing options and just some other fun situational type spells. 10 Druids spells (two levels lower than your current maximum) is a lot of potential firepower to play with.
Superior Spell Mastery/Intoned Recollection/Immediate Spell Mastery. By itself, Spell Mastery is a situationally useful feat, since the spells are chosen at the time of taking the feat. Now you can alter what spells are mastered to something better when you gain access to new spells. And who doesn't love having the ability to spontaneously cast spells?
Lasting Goodness. Increased durations for Good spells doesn't apply in a ton of situations. But whenever you cast a Summon spell, if you choose a Good creature, the spell itself becomes Good. Summon Monster and Nature's Ally already have a number of Good options, but perhaps consider grabbing the Summon Good Monster feat if you want more options. Don't forget that if you are using a Summoning spell, Summoner's Charm would also apply.
Holy Arcana. Grants you the spells from the Good domain. They aren't all amazing, but Blade Barrier and Holy Word ain't terrible.

If you are making a lvl 12 character, you could go right into the class with a 5 Conjurer/7 Collegiate Arcanist.

[ericgrau]

1. Squashing an unoptimized fighter that one person quickly made with an optimized wizard with help from 10 people doesn't prove anything.
2. The most powerful casters for parties are over-glorified support characters who make the fights easier and make the fighter even stronger.

But hey, casters are fun so I'll throw in some basics. Your high level spells should be primarily battlefield control spells; spells like wall of force that block off or delay half of the monsters on the field. This makes fights far easier and most are SR no. If you expect to be fighting a lot of teleporting demons, you can at least delay multiple demons one round or delay the ones that can't teleport or pick an area of effect save-or-disable effect. Though these tend to be SR yes and many demons have SR. Widened or heightened glitterdust may help since it's SR no, but its normal area is a bit small.

Your lower level spells should be hour/level spells to keep up 24 hours such as greater magic weapon on the fighter or false life on yourself. A lesser rod of extend spell or two is often helpful for these.

Mass buffs such as haste are nice too. PF adds some more of these I think. Low duration single target buffs are usually a waste of time though. Unless they are super powerful to be worth a round that could be spent doing other things.

Finally pick up tons of level 1 and 2 utility scrolls for everything imaginable. Just 1-2 of each, and be ready for everything. Or if the entire party could benefit, get enough for the entire party. Usually at minimum caster level, unless you think for some reason a little higher caster level will often be needed such as for Floating Disk. A wand of invisibility is amazing too for bypassing many encounters, though not all especially with true seeing demons around. Still awesome when you can use it.

Above all, have fun!

[Geddy2112]

The short answer is throw a save or lose will save at the fighter and off his character. If you just want to prove that casters are better, which is comically easy. Even if your friend can minmax a fighter, a halfway competent caster will still be a god at level 10, where the fighter is just a really good fighter.

I am going to suggest a druid over the other choices-druids are likely to take augment summoning as a feat and put ranks in spellcraft. A few ranks in knowledge:planar won't kill you either because it is a useful knowledge. This is an easy single class intro to Envoy. Druids can still cast on par with wizards, and you have wild shape. So not only can you summon monsters and cast with the best, but you also have the option of wild shaping and becoming a better frontliner than your fighter friend.


casters are obsolete with fighters in the party, and completely useless without them:smallamused
Lolwut?! All fighters are are meatshields/distractions the wizard did not have to summon

[Laetir]

The short answer is throw a save or lose will save at the fighter and off his character. If you just want to prove that casters are better, which is comically easy. Even if your friend can minmax a fighter, a halfway competent caster will still be a god at level 10, where the fighter is just a really good fighter.

I am going to suggest a druid over the other choices-druids are likely to take augment summoning as a feat and put ranks in spellcraft. A few ranks in knowledge:planar won't kill you either because it is a useful knowledge. This is an easy single class intro to Envoy. Druids can still cast on par with wizards, and you have wild shape. So not only can you summon monsters and cast with the best, but you also have the option of wild shaping and becoming a better frontliner than your fighter friend.


Lolwut?! All fighters are are meatshields/distractions the wizard did not have to summon

Lol. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to kill my friend's character, I just want him to realize that parties aren't gimped if they're not primarily composed of fighters. It's funny, because when he DMs, he insists on at least 1 fighter, preferably 2, so that we won't be underpowered. And no, that's not subterfuge because he really hates dealing with how broken casters are, this is his legitimate feeling on the matter. Truth be told, I never really considered summoning, because I tend to feel that it leaves the rest of the party out when you get 4 moves a round to their 1, but I will make an exception in this case. The cleric concept sounds amazing as well., I love the idea of a kooky old elf running around interpreting the stars for the betterment of life on Kalimar!

[ericgrau]

Well a fighter is a lot harder for a rookie to screw up, especially in PF.

Whether you go druid or wizard I think it'll work out either way. With a well made druid you get another fighter plus some casting. With a wizard (or sorcerer) you show how well you can support everyone else in the party and make them grateful that you're there.

[Geddy2112]

Lol. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to kill my friend's character, I just want him to realize that parties aren't gimped if they're not primarily composed of fighters. It's funny, because when he DMs, he insists on at least 1 fighter, preferably 2, so that we won't be underpowered. And no, that's not subterfuge because he really hates dealing with how broken casters are, this is his legitimate feeling on the matter. Truth be told, I never really considered summoning, because I tend to feel that it leaves the rest of the party out when you get 4 moves a round to their 1, but I will make an exception in this case. The cleric concept sounds amazing as well., I love the idea of a kooky old elf running around interpreting the stars for the betterment of life on Kalimar!

If you don't want to easily ghost him to show him the godly power of a tier one caster, minomancy is a pretty strong bet. When your derps are taking more actions than the rest of the party, doing the same job the fighter would do(often better) then maybe your friend will see that casters are better than fighters. If a caster needs or wants a fighter, they can simply summon one. They can get one that fly, shoot spells, use swords, teeth, grapple, and all the other things fighters can do(and can't do).

Another way is to simply lock down the encounter for all non casters. Things like walls of force, stone shape, earth to mud, flight, reverse gravity or other things that break the laws of physics and nature. Tell the martial classes to sit in the corner and watch as you singlehandedly beat the encounter. It is not even remotely difficult.