Ideas for an all-Underdark campaign?

[Grimstaff]

I'm brainstorming a new all-underdark campaign setting. It centers on a largish city beside a subterranean sea, a sort of Downer-meets-Babylon 5-type place, neutral ground for any race/alignment/etc. What would you like to see in such a setting in terms of locations, npcs, adventures, and other ideas?

Throw me some good stuff!

[Grimstaff]

Some additional thoughts:

*I'd like to have a well-fleshed out Tavern or Inn as the PCs "home ground" in the campaign. With some flavorful "regulars" in addition to the Inn Keeper. Some archtypes include the Mysterious Old Man, the Is-she-real-or-not Fortune Teller, the Personable Fence with a mean streak, the Prostitute with a Heart of Gold, the Annoying Kid Looking for a Mentor, but all these should be races like Derro, Drow, Duergar, Kuo-Toa, Svirfs, Mind Flayers, etc.

*I'd also like to re-skin some classic adventures for an Underdark setting. Stuff like Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh reskinned as a Derro's Fungus-Manse on the edge of the Sunless Sea, White Plume Mountain reskinned as an inverted volcanic cone, etc.

[Spojaz]

You could get some interesting ideas from why anybody would live here, instead of all the places that have sun, plants, or food as well as a city. Is every inhabitant a member of the typically evil and powerful underdark races? Evil elvish empire on the surface? No habitable surface at all? Mining trade? Really good fishing? Megadungeon entrance?

[Everyl]

What keeps the city neutral? In a place like the Underdark, I'd think that anywhere with the resources to support a city would be targeted for conquest or takeover by pretty much everybody around. Also, I'd expect accusations of violations of neutrality to be common, whether or not violations actually are, with a lot of grey area disputes wherein it's hard to tell who, if anyone, is in the right. Whether or not it's the focus of the players' lives, I'd expect a lot of politicking of that sort in any place that has representatives from so many different factions present.

I like the idea of re-skinning common adventure-fantasy archetypes for Underworld races and situations. I'll be especially impressed if you could fit a mind flayer into the "Annoying Kid Looking for a Mentor" role.

[Celcey]

I know nothing about Downer or Babylon 5, but if the city is neutral grounds, then there should be a bit of everything there. Probably their main export is trade, especially of information. Kind of like the City of Brass: you can go there to find anything, or get any info you need... for a price. Definitely a lot of drow and duergar traders. For funsies, I'd also throw in a Romeo and Juliet type relationship where Romeo and Juliet ask for help to make their escape, and the PCs have to make it happen. If there's a mind flayer part of town, I'd have a whole colony of flumphs next door to feed off of that psychic energy.

There may be a lot of cults in town because they can work here without having worry about being hunted down by the city guard. There might be doppelgangers plotting their next scheme, a noble/politician trying to hire some bugbears to intimidate a rival/opponent, acolytes preaching their god or goddesses creed (and there can be many different gods with many different creeds), devils and demons trying to bargain for souls, and the like. I would also have a high kuo-toa presence, especially since they're near an underground sea.

One thing I would definitely have is a (heavily enforced) code against violence in the city, because of all the different types of folk that come there. If you wanna fight, you take it outside the city walls, unless perhaps you're fighting in the city arena. That could easily be a place where they can consistently make a bit of gold if they put on a good show.

As for plot hooks, some of the aforementioned points can make good hooks, although that may also depend on the party's overall alignment. Helping Romeo and Juliet run away together, helping the noble crush his opponents (getting themselves hired instead of the bugbears) if they're on the neutral/bad side, having some flumphs come to them to spoil an illithid plot if they're good. You also have good potential for underwater adventures because of the sea, so maybe some sahuagin attacks that need to be dealt with, and perhaps the merfolk need some help with some merrows that just got into the area. And if there are merrows, that means there's a portal to the Abyss down there somewhere. Also, there are bound to be slave traders in the area. What are the cities laws on slaves? That can definitely lead to good plots, like escaped slaves who need refuge, or a slaveowner offering to pay for someone to find escaped slaves, or people looking for folks to kidnap and sell into slavery. Maybe they even have an underground railroad of sorts, so get people to places where slavery is completely illegal.

So hopefully some of these ideas are helpful. If you have any books that talk about the City of Brass, than that might give you some good ideas, although there may be less reason for good-aligned folk to be in this city in the Underdark. Also, since I play 5e, most of the stuff I mentioned is based out of the 5e Monster Manuel. So stuff might be different in whatever edition you play, like merrows may nt come through Abyss portal and things like that.

[Grimstaff]

You could get some interesting ideas from why anybody would live here, instead of all the places that have sun, plants, or food as well as a city. Is every inhabitant a member of the typically evil and powerful underdark races? Evil elvish empire on the surface? No habitable surface at all? Mining trade? Really good fishing? Megadungeon entrance?

Good question! Brainstorming: The city is at an accessible point between the Underdark and the world above and so serves as perhaps the most important center of trade between the two "worlds". As an economic center is a natural destination for merchants, migrants seeking a better life, scholars in search of knowledge, folk fleeing their pasts in search of a new start, and ne'er-do-wells looking to prey on all of the above.

[Grimstaff]

What keeps the city neutral? In a place like the Underdark, I'd think that anywhere with the resources to support a city would be targeted for conquest or takeover by pretty much everybody around. Also, I'd expect accusations of violations of neutrality to be common, whether or not violations actually are, with a lot of grey area disputes wherein it's hard to tell who, if anyone, is in the right. Whether or not it's the focus of the players' lives, I'd expect a lot of politicking of that sort in any place that has representatives from so many different factions present.

I like the idea of re-skinning common adventure-fantasy archetypes for Underworld races and situations. I'll be especially impressed if you could fit a mind flayer into the "Annoying Kid Looking for a Mentor" role.

More good questions! Brainstorming: The city's "neutrality" is enforced by the Drow, I'm basing my drow on ERB's Black Pirates of Mars - above the city is the access point for their flying ships to reach the outside world. The city is kept neutral to keep trade flowing - being the unofficial law enforcement of the city entitles the Drow to collect tariffs. The neutrality also makes the place a center of diplomacy - all the major Underdark races/nations/factions have embassies here. The Drow's protection further allows them easy access to spy on whatever their rivals are up to and play them against each other. I expect the status-quo won't play much of a role in the PCs lives - until they start accumulating a bit of wealth and notoriety, when things could start to get a bit uncomfortable.

PS - Challenge Accepted! The Annoying Kid in search of a Mentor is now officially an adolescent Illithid. Gods help us all.

[Grimstaff]

One thing I would definitely have is a (heavily enforced) code against violence in the city, because of all the different types of folk that come there. If you wanna fight, you take it outside the city walls, unless perhaps you're fighting in the city arena. That could easily be a place where they can consistently make a bit of gold if they put on a good show.

Great ideas, Celcey. I especially like the above quoted bit. In keeping with the ERB vibe, its likely the Drow throw criminals of even minor offences into the arena to fight for their amusement (and for their share of the masses' compulsive wagering on these bouts)!

[Celcey]

I'd like to have a well-fleshed out Tavern or Inn ... with some flavorful "regulars" in addition to the Inn Keeper. Some archtypes include the Mysterious Old Man, the Is-she-real-or-not Fortune Teller, the Personable Fence with a mean streak, the Prostitute with a Heart of Gold, the Annoying Kid Looking for a Mentor.

For these, I would take those typical archtypes and subvert them Hooker with a Heart of Gold? Kindest man you ever met. The kid looking for a mentor doesn't get in the way of everything you do (a la Buddy from The Incredibles), but is instead scarily competent and just begging for you approval. One of my favorite NPCs that I've ever made up was an illithid wizard who was banished for their wizardry, and keeps company with a Flumph as he tries to be a good person... even though he needs to eat brains to survive.


More good questions! Brainstorming: The city's "neutrality" is enforced by the Drow, I'm basing my drow on ERB's Black Pirates of Mars - above the city is the access point for their flying ships to reach the outside world. The city is kept neutral to keep trade flowing - being the unofficial law enforcement of the city entitles the Drow to collect tariffs. The neutrality also makes the place a center of diplomacy - all the major Underdark races/nations/factions have embassies here.

I don't know anything about the Black Pirates of Mars, so I don't know what that says about your drow. But I think (and this is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree) the city should be run by the people in it, who, based on what you said, would be all sorts of different folks. Again, I don't know what your drow are like, but they're usually not the most impartial of people, and in a city like this, they would need to be. I;d assume it's a mishmosh, and all the people who live there would be fiercely loyal to the city as opposed to any race or racial prejudices.

[redwizard007]

Consider mining Sigil from Planescape for ideas. They have planar factions that could easily be reflavoured to more terrestrial groups. In addition, each faction was responsible for certain cival services which gave them immense power over a limited sphere.

I'd also be inclined to have a ruling council of multiple races as the main government, possibly under a Drow executive... That might build more political tension you can exploit for adventure opportunities.

As far as prohibitions against killing. Not a fan. You need an outlet for your evil inhabitants. You could always do a "prohibition against killing" that applies when no witnesses "of value" are left to testify. Something like how FR Drow do house wars in Salvatore novels.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Go play a bit of Sunless Sea. It's exactly what I think you're looking for.

[Celcey]

I'd also be inclined to have a ruling council of multiple races as the main government, possibly under a Drow executive... That might build more political tension you can exploit for adventure opportunities.

I agree with the more diverse ruling, although I wouldn't put it under the control of a drow. But I see a lot of potential in a council made up of many different races.


As far as prohibitions against killing. Not a fan. You need an outlet for your evil inhabitants. You could always do a "prohibition against killing" that applies when no witnesses "of value" are left to testify. Something like how FR Drow do house wars in Salvatore novels.

In this, I disagree. This place is neutral to the core. They don't care what you do outside their city, but if you're in their city, you follow their rules. I'd figure most permanent residents are fiercely loyal to the city (the way people from any big city are proud of their home town), and probably grew up there, so they're used to the rules. You wanna kill someone, do it outside the city walls.

[LudicSavant]

Something I posted in another thread that was asking for ideas for where people in the Underdark get their food if one doesn't want to just wave their hands and say "magical radiation." Thought the OP might find it helpful (it provides a lot more details for underdark stuff than just food sources).


In my most recent setting that uses classic races:

First off, the underdark is a really terrible place to live. Do you have any idea how bloody awful it is to be neighbors with Mind Flayers? It bloody sucks. The drow aren't living there because it's their first option, they're living there because they got exiled there by the other elves who took all the good land for themselves by force.

That said, in my world there are vast underground oceans (think something like Sunless Sea (http://store.steampowered.com/app/304650/)) full of geothermal vents, which drives a rich yet entirely alien aquatic ecosystem which serves as a basis for the less wet Underdark life. This is also part of why the underdark is full of aberrations, since in my setting aberrations are related to deep sea life (anglerfish actually have the aberration type in this world).


The Deep Ones (Procan, Sekolah, etc)
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/156/8/d/water_colossus_by_lappisch-d3i2opq.jpg
http://img15.deviantart.net/b4bb/i/2011/164/1/c/water_colossus_by_farkwhad-d3itl81.png
http://img15.deviantart.net/24bd/i/2011/167/c/6/rift_water_colossus_by_zulusplitter-d3iytim.jpg
http://img05.deviantart.net/3ddf/i/2011/160/b/d/rift_contest_water_colossus_by_onikaizer-d3igrrg.jpg
"Call me king, call me demon. Water forgets the names of the drowned." -Tahm Kench, League of Legends

Domains: There are many Deep Ones with many domains. Common ones include Dragon Below, Windstorm, Weather, Watery Death, Water, Vile Darkness, Metal, Madness, Life, Blackwater, Animal, Cavern, Corruption, Darkness, Chaos, Charm, Gluttony, Knowledge, Shadow, Seafolk, Entropy, and Evil.
Portfolio: Life (especially saltwater life, but all life has water in it), Aberrations (Aboleths, Mind Flayers, etc), Water, Oceans, The Abyss, Salt, Lost Technology, Psionics (especially Wilders), Bioluminescence, The Far Realms, Pressure, Madness
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e2e3QU4ft0

Knowledge (Religion) DC 10:
In this world, the popular vision of hell is not a place of fire and brimstone, but a deep, dark, wet place of crushing pressure and mad physics populated by luminous alien forms and the looming hulks of Atlantean machinery.... for in this world, magic has let people see the deepest depths of the ocean, and there lies creatures far stranger than any fire-breathing dragon.

This is the Abyss, a place of terrifying contradictions. It is a place where water is all around you, but every drink is poison. It is a place of vast open spaces that exert a crushing claustrophobia. It is an unsheltered place of transparent fluid, yet Pelor's sunlight cannot pierce its depths, which are instead lit by the bright silhouettes of alien bodies. It is a place of poison and darkness, yet life flourishes. It is a place where lakes can exist underwater. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUEr7uMnXU) No less strange is the bizarre architecture that can be found in some places in the Abyss; cyclopean ruins of towering metal and thick, snaking cables that seem to loop and twist in on themselves, with interiors resembling metallic innards of a behemoth.

In these alien depths lie the Deep Ones, the chaotic font of primordial life and the source of all the world's oceans. It was the struggle of Corellon, Moradin, and Gruumsh to overcome the Deep Ones in the dawn times that made life apart from the poison seas possible.

It is said that being too long at sea drives men to death or madness, and none know the truth of this as well as sailors themselves, who often sacrifice to the terrible Deep Ones in order to keep them appeased and sleepy. Seeking to explore the depths of the ocean is often regarded as madness itself.

All aberrations are born of the Deep Ones. In this world, anglerfish and the like have the Aberration type.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 15:
Long ago, long before the First Civilizations, there was the Creation War, where the gods forged the world as we know it today from the primordial sea and sealed away the lords of the old world, the Deep Ones, in the deepest trenches of the Abyss.

In the beginning, the world was wrapped in thick black clouds. There was no sunlight, and all beings glowed with their own, inner light, as did the volcanic earth itself. Before Moradin, land could not rise above the waves, and the world was wrapped entirely in water. Before Corellon, no life could exist apart from saltwater, and all blood was aberrant. Before Gruumsh, the sea was not subjected to the power of storm and sky, and water obeyed an entirely different kind of physics than it does today, flowing and writhing like the very life it spawned. Indeed, hurricanes are the result of Gruumsh wrestling the sea to keep it from rising up and consuming everything, returning the world to the briny depths from which the gods raised it.

Gruumsh wrapped the earth in sky to hold the sea down, so that Moradin could raise the core of the world and forge the land from it. When Moradin first created land, life could only exist on its shores and beaches, and nothing could survive inland, where all was dry and barren. Pelor's first purpose was to purify the sea with the power of evaporation, allowing fresh water, free of corrupting salt, to rain down upon the land, creating lakes and rivers free of the influence of the Deep Ones. Corellon then created a new kind of blood, foreign to the Deep Ones, and seeds which could use sunlight and the new purified water.

Though the Deep Ones are sealed away, their influence still seeps into the world around them, and their will spreads through their dreams.
The deeper beneath the surface one goes, farther and farther from Pelor's light, the more it resembles the primeval world where the Deep Ones reigned over all. There, some still remember the old ways.

Knowledge: (Religion) DC 20:
Salt contains the crystallized power of the deep ones, and is thus an ingredient in many spells and rituals, as well as a reagent for fueling life itself. Salt is the essence of corruption, and to salt the land is to corrupt it. Salt flats are seen as forsaken, haunted places.

Unfortunately, we cannot live without salt or water. We are dependent upon the essence of the Deep Ones to live, and so it is, some priests say, that we are necessarily impure and imperfect. Others would point out is a testament to our strength that we can overcome a base, animal nature. Some scholars claim that those of the most noble breeding have less connection to the Deep Ones (and more to Corellon) in their blood, and that through good bloodlines the influence of the Deep Ones can gradually be filtered out.

The twisting caverns of the underdark are said to have been carved out by the Deep Ones. A great underwater ocean, the Sunless Sea, can be found in the deeper depths of the underdark, and it is from here that many of the terrible aberrations of the underdark emerge.

Psionics comes from tapping into the power of the dreaming Deep Ones, which is present in all life, for all life comes from water. Bioluminescence is a sign of natural psionic potential, as indeed the first form of bioluminescence developed as a result of psionic displays. Sight developed later to see the psionic displays in a world that was otherwise all but completely dark. "Psionic tattoos" are actually a form of bioluminescence.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 25:
Many aquatic creatures refer to the surface world as "the Lack" and the oceans as "the Plenty." This reflects a certain mindset amongst many aquatic creatures which is perhaps fortunate for us. After all, the Sahuagin are smarter and stronger, on average, than humans... and the oceans still cover most of the world.

Aberrations tend to regard sunlight as alien light (that is, not coming from things on the earth itself, such as its molten core or bioluminescence). They see themselves as the native inhabitants of the world, and some Aboleths still remember the beginning times when all things glowed with their own inner light. To them, we are the soulless aberrations, whose existence is only made possible by wretched artifice.

The bizarre ruins of flowering metal towers deep within the Abyss seem to have some connection with the Deep Ones and the ancient aberrations that preceded the First Civilizations, but their ultimate purpose is unknown. Some Sahuagin nations are actively engaged in investigating these places. Most believe that going anywhere near these places risks disturbing the Deep Ones. Some Aberrations may have some idea of what is going on down there, but if they do they aren't explaining it to us.


In the depths, the energy comes from molten rivers and geothermal vents. These provide heat and gasses, which in turn feed things like chemoautotrophic bacteria and small organisms, which in turn feed fungi and oozes and the like. Think like, say, the Villa Luz caves in Mexico with their ecology based around hot hydrogen sulfide springs.

The drow generally don't build terribly large societies, due to the challenges of agriculture (which is... weird and relatively inadequate, when it's possible at all. It mostly relies on dredging stuff from around thermal vents or the odd Etrian-Odyssey-like underground forest, or impressive feats of engineering). The Houses are essentially glorified tribes unified by a need to stand against the horrors of the deep or raids from the surface. They rely on herding, hunting, gathering, raiding, magical food production, and access to the subterranean seas for fishing and aquaculture. They have some really cool floating gardens. They also often have to protect themselves from the very noxious gasses that allow the underground ecosystems to function.

Early exile societies were seriously carried by a core of clerics of Lolth who were capable of tiding them over with magical food production when the elves who exiled them were sure that they had given them a death sentence. This is why drow society is centered around the Lolth religion so closely, it seriously was the functional rock their society was built upon (contrary to the high elf propaganda view that their society somehow works DESPITE their religious tendencies, rather than BECAUSE of it). Not only did the priests cast magical spells that served fundamental societal functions, but they also espoused a philosophy which bred a people capable of surviving in such a harsh environment. Drow wear their culture's survival in the underdark as a badge of pride.



Lolth, The Hunted
http://pre03.deviantart.net/3095/th/pre/f/2013/007/1/f/lolth_by_agentscarlet-d5qt5do.jpg
Domains: Abyss, Cavern, Chaos, Darkness, Destiny, Destruction, Dream, Drow, Evil, Family, Fate, Knowledge, Luck, Lust, Oracle, Pride, Spider, Trickery
Portfolio: Assassins, ambition, chaos, cunning, darkness, destiny, drow, fate, luck, mothers, post-traumatic growth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_growth), potential, spiders, self-actualization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization), strength
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iApGYxLTpXo

Knowledge (Religion) DC 10:
Lolth is the patron goddess of the Drow. Tales of her treachery are infamous amongst the high elves. Known as the "Queen of Spiders" or "Queen of the Demonweb Pits," she is reviled for her betrayal of Corellon Larethian, perverse cruelty against her own subjects, and disturbing fixation with spiders.

Formerly the wife of Corellon Larethian, Lolth was corrupted by greed and lust. Not satisfied with her divine rank, she conspired to aid Corellon Larethian's enemy Gruumsh, and steal his power. This led to a great war between the elves, at the end of which Lolth's wicked followers were driven underground.

In art, Lolth is typically depicted as a beautiful drow woman, sometimes with the body of a great spider.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 15:
The Drow tell the story of Lolth rather... differently from the rest of the elves. Formerly a minor goddess and the humble lover of Corellon Larethian, Lolth is said to have realized her own beauty, acquired a sense of self worth, and determined that she and her people were destined for greater things. She came to realize that the ways of the gods of higher divine ranks (almost all men in standard D&D cosmology, and Corellon and Moradin are alone at the highest divine rank, meaning Lolth was basically Hera) were short-sighted, corrupt, and stifling, causing history's problems to endlessly repeat themselves in a cruel drama. Refusing to play second fiddle to Corellon Larethian, whose ways would forever hold the elves back, she left him and instead fell in love with Gruumsh, whose sense of honor she respected. With her guile and wisdom, she managed to secure a greater portfolio for herself.

For this transgression, Corellon Larethian cursed all of her followers, forcing them to flee underground as the other elves turned against them. Ever since, Lolth has sworn vengeance against Corellon Larethian, and promised to restore the drow to their rightful place in the world.

According to her followers, Lolth's philosophy is one of the virtues of ambition, strength, individuality, self-actualization, and realizing your full potential.

The veneration of spiders is based on Lolth's parables. She would often point to the nature of spiders as demonstrations of moral principles, particularly regarding femininity and motherhood. Perhaps the most famous example is the parable of the brood, wherein the new-born spider broods tear each other apart to survive, such that the next generation will be stronger than the last. Another is the parable of the mother, which points to the nature of female spiders to illustrate the strengths of women when we cast off our presumptions.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 20:
Lolth presents a rather novel set of moral principles. She rejects patriarchy, monarchy, chivalry, and other such principles in favor of other notions of honor and virtue. A few examples are as follows:

To a follower of Lolth, there is no concept of "fighting fair." Such notions are invented by the weak-minded to corrupt the cunning. Chivalry states that men may not gang up because nobles are individually better armed, trained, and educated, while peasants are numerous. Chivalry states that poison and assassination is vile, because it deals with the individual who transgresses rather than making war on their minions while they hide within their castles. Chivalry states that fire and swords are honorable, because castles do not burn like cottages, and steel does not slice like linen.

A follower of Lolth would also say that the idea of the strong protecting the weak is a flawed idea, akin to the proverb of the fisherman. To give a man a fish is to feed a man for a day, but to teach a man to fish is to give him the strength to feed a family for a lifetime. To spare the rod is to spoil the child, denying them the strength of discipline. Competence is borne of struggle, and the most saintly character is as worthless as a lifeless stone if it lacks the power to impose itself on the world and thereby better it. Lolth's philosophy speaks volumes about self-realization and self-actualization, and of creating a stronger individual through ambition and trial.

The notion that the weak should not be protected has some limits or exceptions... the duties of an adult is different from the duties of a child, and the sacred duties of a mother are to make their children strong. Also, some trials are so mismatched that they will grant no strength, only destruction.

To a follower of Lolth, strength means more than simply muscle. It means strength of will, strength of character, and strength of mind, as well as pursuing grand dreams and ambitions. Cleverness and guile are respected even more than strength of arm. They often claim that in these respects, women are truly the stronger gender amongst the elves.

One major effect of Lolth's unique philosophy is that drow society seems to be the largest community able to survive with no true central government or monarchy of any kind, though some scholars would note that their society is dwarfed by those of the greater races, considering the drow little more than a loose confederation of tribes (or "houses" as the drow call them).

Lolth is sometimes known as Arachne, Araushnee, or Megwandir in ancient sources. Her connection with spiders goes back to her original role as Corellon's wife and the Weaver of Fate, in which she weaved destiny like a spiderweb. Indeed, it is said that the reason Lolth encourages her followers to cultivate strength is because of the way fate works. She desires to craft the greatest of destinies for her children, but one must be strong enough to seize a grand destiny intended for them.

Drow are not the only worshippers of Lolth, and her philosophy has found traction with many cults, such as that of the human cleric Lareth the Beautiful.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 25:
In ancient times, Lolth was known as the Weaver of Destiny, a patron goddess of luck, fate, and motherhood. Her role was to weave the threads of fate for the elves, to ensure they lived up to their destinies, as well as to protect mothers and promote childbirth.

It was Lolth who urged the lords of the gods to appoint Wee Jas as psychopomp in the Age of Winter, despite Corellon's skepticism that she could fill such a crucial role.

It is said that Lolth was not satisfied with the petty fates she was able to craft, with roadblocks put in her way at every turn, and that this desire to craft a greater destiny for her children (essentially, what she saw as being allowed to do her job properly) was the first seed of her resentment for Corellon Larethian.

It is also sometimes speculated that the reproductive problems of the elves began because of Lolth's schism from Corellon, and that the high infant mortality rate of the elves results from her absence... or perhaps her vengeful curse.

Some give thanks to Lolth when they accomplish great deeds, paying homage to her as the weaver of their grand fate. Some high level adventurers claim that they have received omens from Lolth, telling them of how they may seize their destinies.

There is much speculation of Lolth's role in divine events, as it is uncertain how much influence she currently wields in the pantheon, and her influence as the weaver of fate (now shrouded by her portfolio of darkness and assassins) is nothing if not subtle. Many believe that she is plotting something big... while skeptics say that she is merely hiding from the forces that hunt her.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 30:
A fragment of the apocryphal Leaf Stone claims that Lolth was a goddess of minor stature in early times, one of many lesser deities with small portfolios working under the greater deities such as Corellon Larethian. According to it, dissatisfaction with her role began even earlier than her relationship with Corellon, and indeed it was her dissatisfaction that drove her to seduce him in the first place. Desperate to secure the destiny she longed for for her children, she hoped to steal some of Corellon Larethian's vast divine power. She used her inside position to aid Gruumsh, supporting his ill-fated revolution in which he lost his eye... and indeed making such a fight possible in the first place against the two highest ranked deities. In some ways, Gruumsh holds his failure against Lolth, and their relationship is at best inconsistent and dysfunctional.

Recovered writings of the scholar Esegrius claim that Lolth was actually responsible in part for Joramy and Vecna's ascension to godhood. Why she would do this is unclear.


But all of this still doesn't account for all of the food that modern drow societies consume. What allowed such growth? Where does the rest come from? The answer is simple: Trade. The underdark might be full of horrors, but it's also full of treasures the likes of which cannot be found anywhere else... which is of course why adventurers are always spelunking around down there. The drow Houses that live in the Underdark export marvels of the deep, and import food (as well as other things that are tricky to get ahold of underground). They aren't self-sufficient at their population density, because they don't have to be.

How's that sound?



Real life sunless ecosystems in caves or the deep sea often spring up around geothermal vents or chemical energy sources (like methane or hydrogen sulfide). This alone is sufficient to support a huge amount of biomass wherever those sources of energy are abundant. Chemosynthesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis) is common in such environments, but apparently you don't even need sunlight for photosynthesis, either (http://www.asu.edu/feature/includes/summer05/readmore/photosyn.html). You could throw in things like oozes if you want to say they make such systems even more efficient, but that's hardly necessary. If you want, you could further supplement that with external sources like raids, magical food production, and of course a huge factor that has made so many real life societies flourish in numbers in places that otherwise wouldn't be self-sufficient to handle the needs of such populations: trade.

Depending on how deep your underdark is, there may also be the option of some real life cave ecosystems that produce things like verdant underground forests.

Also, the Underdark is (at least in most settings) much bigger than any real world cave systems. To get an idea of the possibilities inherent in this, here's a link to pictures of a cave so big it has its own weather system: http://www.unbelievable-facts.com/2014/08/18-first-ever-images-of-cave-so-massive.html

[Everyl]

Great ideas, Celcey. I especially like the above quoted bit. In keeping with the ERB vibe, its likely the Drow throw criminals of even minor offences into the arena to fight for their amusement (and for their share of the masses' compulsive wagering on these bouts)!

What if, instead of arena battling being the default punishment, it was instead a hefty fine based on the severity of the offense? You'd wind up with a powerful, but likely corrupt, police force with a strong incentive to police thoroughly and aggressively. People who can't pay their fines are thrown into the arena to fight until their "debt to society" is paid off by the house cut of the arena betting on their fights. Thus, the rich can buy their way out of punishment by paying the fine, and high-profile figures (like perhaps high-level adventurers) could fight away their fines relatively quickly as their celebrity status attracts heavy betting on their bouts.

[Grimstaff]

Also, the Underdark is (at least in most settings) much bigger than any real world cave systems. To get an idea of the possibilities inherent in this, here's a link to pictures of a cave so big it has its own weather system: http://www.unbelievable-facts.com/2014/08/18-first-ever-images-of-cave-so-massive.html

That link's amazing!

To feed my underground culture, I'm thinking vast, terraced, fungi-plantations worked by blind, pallid slaves captured by drow from the world above and below, and supplemented by trade and "great hunts" (not unlike the "Faerie Hunts" of northern european floklore) that venture into dangerous corners of the Underdark in search of rare and dangerous delecacies.

[Grimstaff]

Any ideas for villains?

I don't want the Drow to be the main villains - too obvious, and they are more important as the stabilizing force in the area.

I've always liked the idea of a rival party of PCs becoming a recurring thorn in the group's side. Maybe some sort of revenge/romantic rivalry angle?

Also, what sort of villain is so evil as to make the Drow look like a force for Law & Order? Something alien and unknowable, like Illithids or Aboleths? Or something lower planar in nature?

I'd really like to avoid stereotypes in this setting - the shifty-looking Derro turning out to be a greater ally than the gorgeous top-lander priestess, for example.

[LudicSavant]

That link's amazing! Putting clouds in your caves is both fun and accurate. Did you check the spoiler sections for my post? It might contain some helpful ideas for villains and stereotype-avoiding allies alike.


To feed my underground culture, I'm thinking vast, terraced, fungi-plantations worked by blind, pallid slaves captured by drow from the world above and below, and supplemented by trade and "great hunts" (not unlike the "Faerie Hunts" of northern european floklore) that venture into dangerous corners of the Underdark in search of rare and dangerous delecacies.

The thing I'd consider for fungi plantations would be where the energy for the fungi is coming from... which in turn will inform other fun traits for your environment.

Also, if your city is on the edge of a subterranean ocean, fishing and aquaculture could be good options to explore.

[Grimstaff]

Some thoughts on how the various races fit in the city:

Myconids - This fungal race operates as peddlers of drugs - the majority of them of the recreational and addictive hallucinogen / narcotic variety, but some few of healing properties. It would be interesting to see a PC seek them out to cure a diease or something and end up hooked on something dangerous and expensive.

Duergar - This race serves as hired muscle in the city - bodyguards for Drow nobles, mercenaries for Svirf caravans, bouncers, enforcers at the Punitive Arena, and so on. They could be a cheap source of "red shirts" for the party as well.

Derro / Goblins - These races serve as the cheap labor and civil servants of the city. Their potential for spying and the occasional violent uprising could serve as adventure hooks for the party.

Svirfneblin - These caravan masters of the Underdark are frequent visitors to the city, shopkeepers, traders, and guildsmen. Their great wagons are pulled by Chuul and Giant Lizards. They may need the party's help to clear the way through difficult areas.

Kuo-Toa - These inscrutable folk serve as fishermen and aquatic farmers to help feed the city. They have a dark side as well - kidnapping those they think will not be missed to sacrifice on the bloodstained altars of their dark gods.

More ideas, anyone?

[Creed]

Any ideas for villains?


Since you've already worked out in your setting that you want your campaign to defy stereotypes and general Heroic Fantasy assumptions, why not make the villains (maybe not the main ones, at least) an adventuring party laden with staples of the genre? In many D&D games, the players are more or less vagrants with a penchant for shooting first, shooting later, shooting some more and then asking some questions (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Murderhobo), so why not make the stereotypical party of adventurers villains? The players have to clean up the collateral damage of this loose-cannon group of killers, and occasionally compete with them over contracts, especially if you put the "home-base Inn" of the players inside of an adventurer's guild, where the players are constantly trying to get an aloof guild-master to crack down on this other group.

[MrZJunior]

I'm basing my drow on ERB's Black Pirates of Mars - above the city is the access point for their flying ships to reach the outside world.

I was thinking "wow, that really sounds like the Black Men of Mars," and then I realized what ERB stood for. One of the coolest ideas I have come across recently. I might have to steal this if I ever use Drow in a campaign.

As to cool things to have in the city, you should have a Lord Vetinari type character sitting in the middle of the government pulling all the strings and scheming all the schemes necessary to preserve the cities neutrality.

Why not make the villains raiders from the surface?

[Grimstaff]

Since you've already worked out in your setting that you want your campaign to defy stereotypes and general Heroic Fantasy assumptions, why not make the villains (maybe not the main ones, at least) an adventuring party laden with staples of the genre?

I like that idea - maybe I'll even take it a step farther and have the villains be what used to be an adventuring party, but after years of successful adventuring have "retired" to enjoy their gains, and gradually succumbed to corruption, vice, and ambition. So you have villians that not only will reasonably be able to predict the party's every move, but also serve as a sort of "moral lesson" to the party of the pitfalls their vocation may hold in store for them.

[Grimstaff]

I was thinking "wow, that really sounds like the Black Men of Mars," and then I realized what ERB stood for. One of the coolest ideas I have come across recently. I might have to steal this if I ever use Drow in a campaign.

As to cool things to have in the city, you should have a Lord Vetinari type character sitting in the middle of the government pulling all the strings and scheming all the schemes necessary to preserve the cities neutrality.

Why not make the villains raiders from the surface?

Glad someone recognized that reference lol! Drow are such an archetypal Underdark race, that I want to use them in the campaign, but following my "defy the stereotypes" theme, I didn't want them to be the usual Drow-Priestess-Nobles-Infighting type. ERB's Black Pirates seem like a good model for how a more unified society of Drow might look, right down to the fervant goddess worship.

I have been pondering an ongoing "Crusade" of sorts of Paladin/LG Cleric types from the surface world. While perhaps a force for good on the surface, in my Underworld setting they may be seen as nothing more than intolerant butchers!

[MrZJunior]

Glad someone recognized that reference lol! Drow are such an archetypal Underdark race, that I want to use them in the campaign, but following my "defy the stereotypes" theme, I didn't want them to be the usual Drow-Priestess-Nobles-Infighting type. ERB's Black Pirates seem like a good model for how a more unified society of Drow might look, right down to the fervant goddess worship.

Yeah, coming up with an alternate interpretation like that is more interesting to my mind than just doing a sort of reversal of the tropes.


I have been pondering an ongoing "Crusade" of sorts of Paladin/LG Cleric types from the surface world. While perhaps a force for good on the surface, in my Underworld setting they may be seen as nothing more than intolerant butchers!

Perhaps they are truce breakers? This just popped into my head:

"In ancient times, when the world was new and magic was still young and vibrant the mortal races warred amongst themselves for the glory of their small gods. They loosed dreadful magics and the world ran red with the blood of millions. So terrible were they energies they channeled that they threatened to unmake the world, casting it once more into formless void. To preserve their creation the elder gods returned and, in a last act of creation, divided the surface from the underdark. To each of the mortal alliances they granted one of these new homelands and decreed that from henceforth there shall be no more war between the two."

In this scenario raiding isn't counted as "war", probably because it is more of the action of an individual or small group rather than a state funded or organized expedition. If the "good guys" are launching large scale invasions/raids, then they might be seen as breaking the god given truce, a position ripe for political exploitation.

[Belac93]

Could use this as an alternative to humans
Underdark humans (darkborn) +1 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity, +1 Constitution; You gain darkvision to a range of 120 ft. You also gain proficiency with Stealth and Intimidation checks. Sunlight sensitivity.

[Grimstaff]

Today's idea fishing:

I want some cool landmarks for my Underdark city, cool things to see and visit that bring the city to life. Some initial brainstorming:

The Daystar Obelisk - an obelisk set up in a small city square in the "upworlder's quarter" that brightens and dims according to the position of the sun in the world above, helping expats keep track of time back home. Good place to meet a contact, lover, etc.

The Ziggurat of the Eye - the premier non-Drow temple in the City. In service to "The Great Eye" a deity of greed and good fortune particular to the Underdark. Five Beholders (of greatly varied personalities, think the Skeksis of the Black Crystal) serve as the temple's "high priests", though the clergy can be of any race.

The Black Canal - a modified inlet of the sunless sea, this canal and its wharves and taverns are the center of smuggling in the City. Denizens give out a peculiar warbling whistle to alert each other to the approach of one of the Drow's flying patrol ships.

The Gray Gardens - A weird, winding fungal maze lit by multi-hued phosphorescence and filled with strange music from unseen sources. The Myconid Dream-Peddlers sell their psychotropic wares in secluded grottoes and their customers act out strange hallucinogenic scenes oblivious to the goggling eyes of passersby.

More Ideas???

[MrZJunior]

Black Rock Castle - A larger castle built on a rocky island off the coast of the city. It protects the entrance to the harbor as well as providing a garisson for the Drow military and a prison for confining particullarly dangerous criminals.

[hiryuu]

Most of my ideas tend to come from Pellucidar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellucidar), the original underdark.

[Grimstaff]

I'm thinking about creating about 20 unique monsters for the setting. These would be ubiquitous to the setting to add still more character to it. Though "monsters", these beasts would not necessarily need to take a predatory or adversarial role, but also serve as beast of burden, mounts, pets, and so on.

Wikipedia has a fun list of "Troglobite" (creatures that live entirely underground) that seems like a good place to start, with awesome real-life specimens (to add "Giant" to!) like:

- Giant Phantom Cave Snail
- Giant Mimic Cavesnail
- Giant White Cave Velvet Worm
- Giant Pseudoscorpion
- Giant Eyeless Huntsman Spider
- Giant Meshweaver Spider
- Giant Bristly Cave Crayfish
- Giant Sword-tail Cave Amphipod
- Giant Serrated Cave Isopod
- Giant Cave Eel
- Giant Climbing Cave Fish
- Giant Demon Eyed Poison-tipped Cave Squid

Okay, so maybe I invented the last one, but you get the picture.

Any ideas???

[MrZJunior]

The fishing industry must be really exciting in this city.

[LudicSavant]

The fishing industry must be really exciting in this city.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vy21MZlVMgc/VdelXtdGm4I/AAAAAAAAGic/TBS_3TpGUrI/s1280-Ic42/__gone_fishing___by_arvalis-d4j6xs5.jpg

[Vereshti]

I want some cool landmarks for my Underdark city, cool things to see and visit that bring the city to life. Some initial brainstorming:

I know it's a day late, but maybe you could include something like the Cave of the Crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Crystals) in the Naica mine? Perhaps there is an impressive crystal garden surrounding the gem cutter's guild, showing off their finest work?

[Solaris]

I know it's a day late, but maybe you could include something like the Cave of the Crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Crystals) in the Naica mine? Perhaps there is an impressive crystal garden surrounding the gem cutter's guild, showing off their finest work?

Well, I'll be using it for my own Underdark. That's rather cool.

[Grimstaff]

I know it's a day late, but maybe you could include something like the Cave of the Crystals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Crystals) in the Naica mine? Perhaps there is an impressive crystal garden surrounding the gem cutter's guild, showing off their finest work?

That's a good idea - maybe the crystals are used to power the Drow airships?

Btw, certainly not too late - I've got at least 3 months left before my RotRL campaign wraps (we're finishing up book 5 next session).

[Grimstaff]

Some more iconic locations:

The Deep Bazaar - a maze-like warren of exotic stalls and vendors. Also a favorite haunt of pickpockets, slavers on the lookout for an easy catch, and myconid drug-peddlers. The Market is run by an infamous Ithilid merchant, Rithkar the Exile, and his gang of fee-collectors, the Red-Arms.

Sanctum of the Oracle - A single dome of white marble, within which hovers an ancient female Beholder, all eleven eyes milky and blind, called Uthryx the Oracle, and her humanoid attendents the Blind Sisters (not really blind, just blindfolded).

The Bladremu Theatre - The most popular theatre in town, featuring plays, comedies, and gaudy Drow operas. Run by the flamboyant playwright Karkos the Half-Drow. There are said to be more sinister performances played out in the Theatre's cellars for an exclusive clientele only.

[Vereshti]

The Bladremu Theatre - The most popular theatre in town, featuring plays, comedies, and gaudy Drow operas. Run by the flamboyant playwright Karkos the Half-Drow. There are said to be more sinister performances played out in the Theatre's cellars for an exclusive clientele only.

Does the Theatre have a Great Stalacpipe Organ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Stalacpipe_Organ) like the one in the Luray Caverns?

[Grimstaff]

Does the Theatre have a Great Stalacpipe Organ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Stalacpipe_Organ) like the one in the Luray Caverns?

It does now! :smallcool:

[Vorgoth]

Landmark: The Pyre

The Pyre is a massive stone step reverse pyramid that starts from the roof and gets smaller as it goes down. It is laced with elemental fire

The Pyre is home to Al'Fla The inferno a ancient red dragon and one of the original citizens if not founders of the city.
Every ten years a great feast is held in his honor in which he is offered food and drink in exchange for protection and him not burning the city down to the ground.If the feast is sabotaged...(adventure hook!)

[Grimstaff]

Landmark: The Pyre

The Pyre is a massive stone step reverse pyramid that starts from the roof and gets smaller as it goes down. It is laced with elemental fire

The Pyre is home to Al'Fla The inferno a ancient red dragon and one of the original citizens if not founders of the city.
Every ten years a great feast is held in his honor in which he is offered food and drink in exchange for protection and him not burning the city down to the ground.If the feast is sabotaged...(adventure hook!)

Spot on, thanks!

[Grimstaff]

Some thoughts on the PC's main hangout in the city:

The Galleon Tavern & Inn

Built in the overturned hull of a wrecked and abandoned Drow airship. The inside is hollowed out for the most part, resulting in a surprisingly airy alehall. The proprietor, Big Marl, is an ogre who was born with a severe birth defect - intelligence! He affects the mannerisms and interests of a colonial-era English gentleman. He fancies himself a gourmet, but no one trusts his concoctions, preferring instead to stick to the grilled albino fish that constitute the Galleon's mainstay. He maintains a staff of waitresses of many underdark races, all dressed in Marl's bizarre and unnecissarily revealing idea of what Top-lander fasion must be like. His accountant and staff supervisor is Relaera, a whip-smart Drow who fled an arranged marriage not to her liking. His head bouncer is Nokker, a heavily scarred Trog who reeks of cheap perfume (to cover his natural pungeance).

Below the hull of the Galleon are two levels of Subterranean chambers, the uppermost consisting of kitchens, storerooms, private dining areas, and a common sleeping hall, the lower hall consisting of private rooms. There is a well in the main kitchen with hidden rungs that is available (for a price) to enable a quick escape into the sewers that run down into the sunless sea.

Throw me some ideas here - decorations, wall trophies, cool regulars, menu items, house drinks, anything?

[Vereshti]

Since he fancies himself a cultured gentleman, perhaps Big Marl collects artwork from far-flung locales and ancient civilizations and decorates the Tavern with artfully arranged pieces of his collection. He’ll pay a handsome price for any relics, statues, tapestries, etc. that the PCs find on their adventures that suit his fancy. Of course, his sense of aesthetics is rather unorthodox…

An idea for a business:

If this is an old and well established city, real estate is probably at a premium, and it might be prohibitively expensive to build a sprawling mansion in the heart of the high class district. Slum landlords looking to pack in as many tenants per square foot as possible are running out of space. That’s where Aurvandil’s Excellent Extradimensional Architecture comes in! This company designs and builds extradimensional extensions to existing buildings to suit the needs of anyone with enough coin. That inconspicuous one-story storefront may have a huge warren of back rooms and meeting places for clients requiring more discretion in their business dealings. Perhaps some buildings have been expanded so many times that they warp Euclidean space and certain… things… slip through the cracks.