Improving 3.5 sorcerer

[ZhanStrider]

So, common enough knowledge that wizard is more powerful than sorcerer, due to things like bonus feats, faster spell progression, casting ability synergizing with skills.
What's the best or easiest way to balance the classes out while keeping their flavors?
Improved HD for the sorcerer and more skill points per level?
My former DM gave them Turn Undead (for no real reason)

[Brova]

Depends on the level of optimization. For most games, people aren't really squeezing any power out of the Wizard, and the Sorcerer is close enough to work. For mid-OP games, you'd want to drop Sorcerer casting by a level (so they get 2nd level spells at 3rd and so on), give them an extra spell of each level for utility spells (i.e. knock, animate dead), and maybe give them another extra spell known or two. For high-OP games, you could try opening the floodgates and changing their spells known to "all Sorcerer/Wizard spells" while keeping them a level behind.

[AvatarVecna]

For general play, sorcerer could be put on the wizard's level by advancing their casting at the same rate wizards get (that is, 9th level spells at 17 instead of 18) and giving more spells known (as well as making spells known easier to change later on). The only other thing I can think of is to maybe include a limited "metamagic doesn't slow down casting" mechanic into the sorcerer.

That's all I've got...at least, that comes from me. If you want a better overall balance between the two classes, look at what Pathfinder did to them.

[Brova]

The only other thing I can think of is to maybe include a limited "metamagic doesn't slow down casting" mechanic into the sorcerer.

That also depends on how optimized you expect the game to be. In the vast majority of games, Sorcerer metamagic is a disadvantage. But in a game where you can persist arcane spellsurge, Sorcerer metamagic + Invisible Spell turns into pretty insane action economy.

Another possible tack is to give Sorcerers pre-errata Extra Spell a number of times each level equal to their highest level slot minus one. So at 4th level they learn an extra 1st level spell from any list, at 8th level it's three extra 3rd or lower level spells from any lists, and at 18th it's eight 8th or lower spells. You might want to tamp that down (maybe to a max of three or four per level), but I think the basic idea is solid.

[Bronk]

To me, the biggest thing that defines the difference between the two classes is their casting styles. The rest seems like an overcompensation due to fear that the sorcerer would be more 'powerful'.

So, I'd just dial back all the other stuff. Spontaneous spells wouldn't become full round actions when metamagic is applied, add in the once every five level bonus feat, maybe add another skill point or two per level.

You know what? I'd add in a free 'Eschew Materials' feat too (maybe to make up for the wizard's free 'scribe scroll'), since how does it make sense that someone who gets the ability to cast a spell dropped into their head should suddenly also know that he needs to go searching for bat guano or something? That's never felt very 'spontaneous'.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick is enough for a Sorcerer to catch up to any Tier 1 class.

You can get Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and spend two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know of one level higher, including metamagic spells or Runestaff spells that would otherwise take a higher level spell slot than your character has (but only one level higher). It also enables you to cast non-Sorcerer spells you've learned when you activate that feat using Sorcerer spell slots. If you take Magical Training (PGtF) you can get a spellbook that you've put some 0-level spells into, and some 0-level spell slots to prepare and cast those from. The Rules Compendium states that anyone who prepares spells from a spellbook can learn more spells and add them to that spellbook, just like a Wizard does, so you can learn as many spells as you want and put them into that spellbook, then use Versatile Spellcaster to cast them. You'll probably need to have the spellbook open to the spell in question when casting it, so it's not practical for use in combat, but it can give you access to plenty of buffs, utility spells, and situational spells that you wouldn't have otherwise learned or put on your runestaff.

In any case, you still want to prestige out as quickly as possible. Versatile Spellcaster with the Ancestral Relic Runestaff will enable you to go Sorcerer 4/ Ruathar, as long as you put a 3rd level spell on the runestaff.

[Nifft]

What I did years ago was:
- Earlier spell-slot access. At level 3, the Sorcerer has 0 level 2 spells -- so only bonus slots, and he knows no actual 2nd level spells. What good is this? Metamagic. Same deal for levels 5, 7, 9, etc.
- Eschew Materials at level 1 (basically flavor).
- Bonus Metamagic feat at 5, 10, 15 and 20.
- No increase in casting time for Metamagic. Yes, you can Quicken.

This means:
- Sorcerers have access to many PrCs at the same level as Wizards, because I interpreted "can cast 3rd level spells" to mean 3rd level spell-slots.
- Sorcerers are really good at Metamagic, so that became their niche. They couldn't cast many spells, but they could modify those spells more. (This is basically their 5e niche so I feel mildly smug.)

[Segev]

Runestaves can go a long way. They're useful to both wizards and sorcerers, but the wizard has fewer spells/day and actively sacrifices a specific prepared spell slot to use them, so giving them to the sorcerer first makes sense if both are in a party. And runestaves can shore up the sorcerer's spell knowledge. This can be done by a DM in-game just by dropping them, or by the player of the sorcerer by spending his share of loot on them.

A runestaff item familiar, I believe, is really abusable in this regard.

A gray area in the rules is the little call-out that says that sorcerers can occasionally learn spells which are not on the sor/wiz list. Let sorcerers learn, with some careful discretion, spells from other class lists or which are lower-level on other lists.


As far as house rules to actually improve the Sorcerer class... you can use PF Sorcerer; their bloodlines give them some interesting class features. It doesn't make them fully up to wizard power, but it's something unique to them.

I would definitely drop the penalty to casting times for spontaneous metamagic. If that's not enough because of their lack of feat slots with which to pick up metamagic, you could also allow them to learn metamagic feats in spells known slots (using the feat's slot adjustment to determine the level spell-known required).

One thing I've heard was an intention behind the sorcerer way back when 3.0 was written was that they be the go-to class for the themed mage. Elsa from Frozen would have been, conceptually, an ice Sorceress, choosing her spells to give her ice powers. Give sorcerers the Spell Thematics feat for free and offer them the ability to learn two spells in each slot when both spells fit the at-chargen-defined theme, and possibly a free 0-level-adjustment metamagic feat applied to bring some spells in theme. So Elsa, for example, could learn coldball and ice bolt (elemental-substituted fireball and lightning bolt) for only one third-level spell-known slot, because the elemental substitution is in her "ice sorceress" theme, and both spells are in theme so cost only half a spell known each.

Alternatively or in addition, sorcerers could learn in-theme spells as spells 1 level lower than wizards do, and get a +1 to the DC of such spells (to compensate for the level drop in DC). So Elsa, again, could learn cone of cold as a third-level spell, rather than a fourth, putting her a level ahead of Maleficent the wizard, who could pick up cone of cold at wizard level 7 (compared to Elsa's sorceress level 6).

You can also pull back to the "laern spells from other lists in some situations" gray area: let sorcerers learn spells that are "in theme" for their concept even if they're on a different list...or at a lower level on a different list.

So the necromancy-focused sorcerer could learn animate dead as a third level spell (from the cleric list) or even 2nd level (from the Death Master list in Dragon Compendium).

[Enran]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like nerfing or removing the wizard (and, heck, most T1 classes) is a much better way to help Sorcerers fit in balance-wise than buffing the Sorcerer more. But that's a matter of personal preference, I am well aware.

[BowStreetRunner]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like nerfing or removing the wizard (and, heck, most T1 classes) is a much better way to help Sorcerers fit in balance-wise than buffing the Sorcerer more. But that's a matter of personal preference, I am well aware.

I'd have to agree that cutting T1 down makes more sense than trying to raise the other classes up. Doing so not only helps improve balance between Wizard & Sorcerer, but also between Wizard and all other classes. Just boosting the Sorcerer actually makes it more unbalanced with regard to the other classes.

[Threadnaught]

So, common enough knowledge that wizard is more powerful than sorcerer, due to things like bonus feats, faster spell progression, casting ability synergizing with skills.

No, it is versatility which makes Wizard more powerful than Sorcerer.

A Wizard can change their Spells each day, while a Sorcerer can only cast what they know or are able to find in a Runestaff. If all of a Sorcerers Spells Known are rendered ineffective by a particular challenge, they're cooked, but a Wizard could always try again some other time with a whole new stack of Spells, provided the situation weren't life threatening or time sensitive.

[Brova]

I'd have to agree that cutting T1 down makes more sense than trying to raise the other classes up. Doing so not only helps improve balance between Wizard & Sorcerer, but also between Wizard and all other classes. Just boosting the Sorcerer actually makes it more unbalanced with regard to the other classes.

I don't think that's a good plan.

First of all, you aren't really cutting down power that much. I mean, the Sorcerer is worse than the Wizard, but it's only obviously so at odd levels other than 1st and 19th. You still get to cast grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, evard's black tentacles, cloudkill, and acid fog in combat, while using any of the minion-making spells outside it. That's not as good as the Wizard, but it's the exact same OP tricks. And it's the same deal with the Dread Necromancer, or the Beguiler, or probably the Wu Jen.

Secondly, the term "Tier 1" is not actually a useful measure of power. You've got classes that can play at any power level (Wizard, Druid, Cleric), classes that do not have objective and predictable abilities (Archivist, Erudite), and the class that is either totally nuts or totally worthless (Artificer). Who do you nerf? How do you nerf them? What balance level are you targeting?

Finally, the problem isn't really the Wizard. Casting a finger of death or web is actually totally fine. The problem is that planar binding exists. And XP free wish exists. And free Persist exists. And honestly, those broken things are really easy to fix.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, reducing Wizard effectiveness is the better plan. One simple change is to make their bonus spells use a second stat, a la the Favored Soul.

[Troacctid]

Well, the EASIEST way to put the Sorcerer on even footing with the Wizard is to give it an extra level of casting and some bonus feats. I'd go with Eschew Materials at 1st, and metamagic, heritage, or reserve feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.


The Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick is enough for a Sorcerer to catch up to any Tier 1 class.

You can get Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and spend two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know of one level higher, including metamagic spells or Runestaff spells that would otherwise take a higher level spell slot than your character has (but only one level higher). It also enables you to cast non-Sorcerer spells you've learned when you activate that feat using Sorcerer spell slots. If you take Magical Training (PGtF) you can get a spellbook that you've put some 0-level spells into, and some 0-level spell slots to prepare and cast those from. The Rules Compendium states that anyone who prepares spells from a spellbook can learn more spells and add them to that spellbook, just like a Wizard does, so you can learn as many spells as you want and put them into that spellbook, then use Versatile Spellcaster to cast them. You'll probably need to have the spellbook open to the spell in question when casting it, so it's not practical for use in combat, but it can give you access to plenty of buffs, utility spells, and situational spells that you wouldn't have otherwise learned or put on your runestaff.

In any case, you still want to prestige out as quickly as possible. Versatile Spellcaster with the Ancestral Relic Runestaff will enable you to go Sorcerer 4/ Ruathar, as long as you put a 3rd level spell on the runestaff.

Haven't we talked before about how the Versatile Spellcaster thing doesn't work? Or if it does work, it works without Versatile Spellcaster, so the feat, while admittedly a generally good feat, is unnecessary for the trick.

[Segev]

Oh, one other thing. While the notion of "psychic magic" bugs me on a number of levels, one of the mechanics in Occult Adventures which is restricted to it really should be something that (particularly for Sorcerers) is just a freebie: undercasting.

Sorcerers should be able to cast spells that come in chains - from Greater Celerity to Summon Monster XI - as their lower-level cousins by spending a lower-level spell slot, and should generally be able to, upon learning a higher-level version, replace the lower-level version.

So if they know Summon Monster I, and then learn Summon Monster II, they are fluff-wise just improving on their ability to summon monsters. So they didn't have time to learn, say, false life, and instead learned, say, silent image. Replacing summon monster I with a first-level spell rather than learning a second-level spell. (And still able to cast summon monster I by "undercasting" summon monster II with a 1st-level spell slot.)

[DMVerdandi]

Give the Sorcerer Spirit shaman casting.


Now it's WAY more versatile, but not unbalanced.
Fluff them having access to the whole list as being more closely tied to the arcane itself than the wizard, and communing with it, rather than studying and prodding.
Also make it require wisdom and charisma to cast.

Done.

[Telonius]

To my mind, Sorcerers should be the metamagic specialists and themed casters. (They are magic, while Wizards study magic). I'd suggest the following for houserules:

They can apply metamagic at no increased casting time.
Sorcerers gain bonus metamagic feats at the same rate Wizards get their feats; Wizards only get bonus item crafting feats.
Free Eschew Materials at first (but only for spells obtained by Sorcerer levels, or PrCs that advance sorcerer casting).
Make heavy use of the "primarily" clause in allowing and encouraging spells known from other lists besides Sorcerer/Wizard.


You might want to add on a few other gimmicks, like maybe a higher number of skill points, or Bloodlines (assuming you rewrote them into something comprehensible).

[Pluto!]

Just use PF base classes.

Sorcerer isn't underpowered by any stretch, it just doesn't have any flashy filler abilities, which conveniently enough are what PF fills it with.

[marphod]

For general play, sorcerer could be put on the wizard's level by advancing their casting at the same rate wizards get (that is, 9th level spells at 17 instead of 18) and giving more spells known (as well as making spells known easier to change later on). The only other thing I can think of is to maybe include a limited "metamagic doesn't slow down casting" mechanic into the sorcerer.

That's all I've got...at least, that comes from me. If you want a better overall balance between the two classes, look at what Pathfinder did to them.

So Spellstaves, Knowstones, and the Metamagic Alternate Class Feature from Complete Mage.

[Krobar]

We give them more spells known, in the same numbers as bonus spells based on Charisma. Same with bards and other spontaneous casters with puny spells known.

[ericgrau]

For casual play you aren't losing much by playing the sorcerer as-is. From ease of use it can often be an advantage. If anything you may want to nerf excessive optimization on the wizard. But this takes such a large amount of real life time that many people don't do it. So mainly you might want to stop the easy to use tricks like abrupt jaunt.

[Thurbane]

Common house rules I've seen are Eschew Material as bonus feat 1st, then a bonus Metamagic every 5 levels; also, adding other "social" skills to his list (Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, Knowledge (local)), and possibly 4 skill points/level.

I've seen some suggest ability to wear light armor with no ASF, and increasing their HD to d6.

...if you did ALL of these, it would help bridge the gap, I guess.

[nedz]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like nerfing or removing the wizard (and, heck, most T1 classes) is a much better way to help Sorcerers fit in balance-wise than buffing the Sorcerer more. But that's a matter of personal preference, I am well aware.

This is what I did, well I went further: I removed all vancian casting as well as T1s.

Wizard is banned, though I added a Sorcerer ACF which was Int based and had the same skill set as Wizard
Clerics and Druids are Spontaneous, also Healer FWIW
The half casters (Ranger etc.) get 1 spell known per level after 3rd — this is a boost
No Archivist, Sha'ir or Artificer
I mulled over Spirit Shaman quite a lot before making that spontaneous also.

[Nifft]

Banning the T1 classes does help, but the Sorcerer suffers from more than just competition.

It also suffers from having no real class features after level 1.

Bonus feats help with that, but they're probably not enough -- they're certainly not enough to keep people in the Wizard class.

[nedz]

Well, in general, Spells > Class Features

Aside from that, there are PrCs.

If you remove T1s, then T2s are still the most powerful classes.

[Troacctid]

I mean, spells kind of are class features.

[Pluto!]

How on earth does banning T1s help balance Sorcs? They go from the top 10 to the top 2.

[nedz]

When people talk about Class Features they usually mean the things listed in the Special column, but yes Spells are Class Features.


How on earth does banning T1s help balance Sorcs? They go from the top 10 to the top 2.

Well how does Improving them help balance Sorcerers, even assuming T1s are in play ?

I took the point of this thread as being Wizard envy anyway.

[Nifft]

Well, in general, Spells > Class Features

Aside from that, there are PrCs. Not aside from that.

That's precisely the issue which I'm talking about.

Leaving the Sorcerer class for a full-casting PrC costs nothing, because the Sorcerer class has no class features (other than spells, which the PrC will continue to advance).

[nedz]

Not aside from that.

That's precisely the issue which I'm talking about.

Leaving the Sorcerer class for a full-casting PrC costs nothing, because the Sorcerer class has no class features (other than spells, which the PrC will continue to advance).

I don't see this as a problem more a feature of the system. If anything it's the existence of no cost PrCs which are the issue.

[Brova]

I don't see this as a problem more a feature of the system. If anything it's the existence of no cost PrCs which are the issue.

I (assuming I understand you correctly) disagree. If you are going to write twenty levels of Sorcerer, there should be some reason to take those levels, if only because it's space efficient to write one less PrC. Plus, it gives you some level of basis for what the Sorcerer "is". Does he get powers because his grandma hooked up with a Dragon? Does he dabble in all kinds of magic? Is he a metamagic specialist, able to adapt his spells on the fly? What is he doing that makes him different from a Wizard or a Beguiler or a Dread Necromancer?

[Nifft]

I don't see this as a problem more a feature of the system. If anything it's the existence of no cost PrCs which are the issue.

It's obviously BOTH things which are necessary ingredients for the issue to be relevant.

If the Sorcerer had class features, then no-cost PrCs would be nearly impossible, because all PrCs would have an inherent opportunity cost ("you lose the Sorcerer class features").

It's not one thing or the other.

[Razanir]

For general play, sorcerer could be put on the wizard's level by advancing their casting at the same rate wizards get (that is, 9th level spells at 17 instead of 18)

So they do... I advocate this entirely because they're apparently the only 9-level casting/manifesting/what-have-you class to not improve on the odd levels. Other than that, the metamagic suggestion seems reasonable.

But a question to the OP: Do they need improving? If you're not talking about incredibly high optimization games, there isn't a difference between Tiers 1 and 2.


If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.

Unless it actually matters that you have 11 nukes, (and no, Spinal Tap isn't a reason) there's not much difference. Either way, you can solve all sorts of problems with ease.

[Troacctid]

But a question to the OP: Do they need improving? If you're not talking about incredibly high optimization games, there isn't a difference between Tiers 1 and 2.

Not the OP, but yes, they need improving. The class is poorly designed and just generally unappealing from a player standpoint. It's not about their power level in a vacuum. Cleric 10/Shining Blade of Heironeous 10 is powerful. Would you say Shining Blade of Heironeous is acceptable as-is?

The goal should be for all the different full-casting classes to be more-or-less equally viable, with different strengths and weaknesses.

[ericgrau]

They're simple and lots of fun to play. Unless the optimization is crazy it's fine to play them alongside wizards.


Common house rules I've seen are Eschew Material as bonus feat 1st, then a bonus Metamagic every 5 levels; also, adding other "social" skills to his list (Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, Knowledge (local)), and possibly 4 skill points/level.

I've seen some suggest ability to wear light armor with no ASF, and increasing their HD to d6.

...if you did ALL of these, it would help bridge the gap, I guess.
In order: nice for fluff, nice for fluff and power as metamagic works nicely with them; minor and minor.

Minor and minor.

Like I said I have no issue playing them as-is, but Thurbane's first paragraph could be fun. I don't think it makes a big difference but eschew materials is convenient. And spontaneous metamagic is a lot of fun on sorcerers, so more could be nice. For the second paragraph don't get me wrong defense is important for squishy casters but light armor isn't going to be that much different from mage armor & similar spells, and +1 hp/level only goes so far.

[ranagrande]

Lots of good ideas in here, but I would do even more to make the Sorcerer stand out.

Starting with skills, I would do much like Thurbane: increase to 4 + int mod, and add more class skills, like diplomacy, sense motive, and use magic device. I'd give it bonus Heritage feats.

I would also change the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to just be the Wizard spell list. Sorcerers could draw their spells known from any other class's spell lists. For each individual Sorcerer, the spell list for the Sorcerer class would be equal to that Sorcerer's spells known. And that will change on a daily basis.

This is the part that will take a bit of work to set up. Make a list of every spell available in the campaign, organized by spell level. Each day, when the Sorcerer regains his spell slots, use a random number generator to determine each spell known. Each day, the Sorcerer may choose to retain up to one spell known for each level he is capable of casting in lieu of randomly learning one.

Regardless of the class list the spells may be drawn from, all Sorcerer spells are arcane spells.

That should help differentiate it a bit.

[Troacctid]

Randomizing spells known seems overcomplicated, and takes the Sorcerer away from its core concept. I'm not a fan. Sounds more like a buff for Wild Mages.

[Sagetim]

I like the out of the blue granting of turn undead usage. For three reasons: One) it's charisma based, and so is sorcerer. Delicious synergy. Two) It kind of fits with the idea that a sorcerer is a proto-god. They can turn undead because they have inherent divine authority that they grant to themselves to do so. Or...something like that. It's just kind of a fun concept that you could play with. Three) Divine Metamagic. If you're giving sorcerer's Turn Undead Uses, you might as well let them take Divine Metamagic too to really use those turn undeads to their utmost. With lowered metamagic costs, that can make a helluva metamagic specialist with an arcane list to draw from.

So, if I was going to do something I would cherry pick from suggestions others have made here for:
Eschew Materials at 1. No increased casting time for metamagic. The 0 slots suggestion at odd levels to let high charisma sorcerers make use of bonus slots. Bonus feats at 5, 10, 15, and 20. Access to Divine Metamagic applicable to their sorcerer spells. And maybe some kind of 'pick a theme' class feature that would give them a +1 caster level per 4 sorcerer levels for spells that fall within their theme. Maybe some kind of combination of an Arcane Domain and the theme bonus or some such.

Now, that's probably rolling over too far into the direction of overpowered, but since I'd probably be the DM in a game with those kinds of changes, I'm willing to put up with that.

[nedz]

I (assuming I understand you correctly) disagree. If you are going to write twenty levels of Sorcerer, there should be some reason to take those levels, if only because it's space efficient to write one less PrC. Plus, it gives you some level of basis for what the Sorcerer "is". Does he get powers because his grandma hooked up with a Dragon? Does he dabble in all kinds of magic? Is he a metamagic specialist, able to adapt his spells on the fly? What is he doing that makes him different from a Wizard or a Beguiler or a Dread Necromancer?
This isn't unique to Sorcerer, most base classes have this issue. How often to people play Fighter 20 or Rogue 20 or Barbarian 20 or Wizard 20 etc. ? Are you going to fix them all ? Base classes are just a framework you hang a build off.

It's obviously BOTH things which are necessary ingredients for the issue to be relevant.

If the Sorcerer had class features, then no-cost PrCs would be nearly impossible, because all PrCs would have an inherent opportunity cost ("you lose the Sorcerer class features").

It's not one thing or the other.
You could do this either way: either have the opportunity cost of lost base class class features or impose the cost at the front end of the PrC. In terms of the Sorcerer if the best PrCs were 9/10 (front loaded) then you would be giving up a level of spellcasting to enter them - which is the Sorcerer's class feature.

[Pluto!]

Well how does Improving them help balance Sorcerers, even assuming T1s are in play ?

I took the point of this thread as being Wizard envy anyway.
I don't think it does, which was the point of my first post here.

What I think the Sorcerer needs for "balance" relative to the Wizard isn't a power-up, it's a reason to exist in the same game as the Wizard. At high-op, I do think that already exists, between Kobolds, Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, but at low- to mid-op, I really don't think it does.

Fluffing it out with minimally powerful but highly flavorful and distinguishing abilities in the way that PF did gives Sorcerers something to feel special about and to have fun tinkering with, but doesn't force them to break the game even harder and doesn't give fuel for people pushing the high end of optimization.

[Optimator]

My group gives Sorcerers there next level of spells a level early so it's in line with Wizards. We also allow a GP and XP expenditure to permanently learn a new spell known. We also take away the increased casting time for metamagic (without giving up the familiar). That does the trick for us.

[Crake]

Not aside from that.

That's precisely the issue which I'm talking about.

Leaving the Sorcerer class for a full-casting PrC costs nothing, because the Sorcerer class has no class features (other than spells, which the PrC will continue to advance).

I take that as an encouragement to PrC, which was a major part of the 3.5 system, rather than a discouragement to go full sorc. Most of the changes proposed are all front loaded anyway and wouldn't help with this at all. It's not like wizard's bonus feat at level 5 levels keeps people going straight wizard anyway.

[Nifft]

I take that as an encouragement to PrC, which was a major part of the 3.5 system, rather than a discouragement to go full sorc. Most of the changes proposed are all front loaded anyway and wouldn't help with this at all.
Which is why I bring it up, yeah.

PrC superiority is a major part of 3.5e, especially for Clerics and Sorcerers.

That's a thing which I feel could use some improvement.


Bonus feats help with that, but they're probably not enough -- they're certainly not enough to keep people in the Wizard class.

It's not like wizard's bonus feat at level 5 levels keeps people going straight wizard anyway.
Indeed.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'd like to to something with rolling them up with the fixed-list casters: choose a specialty that adds a slew of spells known and class features to the basic chassis to be a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer. Maybe come up with one or two more, and perhaps a generalist based on the draconic aspect that's so popular for sorcerers, which gets some divine spells (since that's a feature of high-level True Dragon casting) and the spell-fiddling spells in Dragon Magic etc.

[nedz]

I don't think it does, which was the point of my first post here.

What I think the Sorcerer needs for "balance" relative to the Wizard isn't a power-up, it's a reason to exist in the same game as the Wizard. At high-op, I do think that already exists, between Kobolds, Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, but at low- to mid-op, I really don't think it does.

Fluffing it out with minimally powerful but highly flavorful and distinguishing abilities in the way that PF did gives Sorcerers something to feel special about and to have fun tinkering with, but doesn't force them to break the game even harder and doesn't give fuel for people pushing the high end of optimization.

OK, you could take the PF route — which moves away from PrCs to archetypes etc. — so why not just back-port the PF Sorcerer ?

The 3.5 route though was to create specialist PrCs — to add flavour and diversification — unfortunately many of these just serve to power up the most powerful classes.

[daremetoidareyo]

I've never seen this suggested before. In fact I just thought of it, so this hasn't been totally vetted.

Just let sorcerers use their spells as many times per day as they wish. Their spells are class features, inherent to their being. All spells chosen by player are reviewed by DM, accepted, rejected, or altered (spell level increase). Keep the metamagic casting time thing.

It might get hairy with summons, maybe limit summons to 5 x caster level HD?

[atomicwaffle]

eschew materials is inherent, I think. I also think it should be taken a step further. Sorcerers should need no material components, ever...for anything.

[Pluto!]

OK, you could take the PF route — which moves away from PrCs to archetypes etc. — so why not just back-port the PF Sorcerer ?

Just use PF base classes.
You've responded to me twice, but I don't think you've read my posts.

[nedz]

You've responded to me twice, but I don't think you've read my posts.

Ah sorry, I missed your first post. I was responding to your later ones.

[ZhanStrider]

When people talk about Class Features they usually mean the things listed in the Special column, but yes Spells are Class Features.



Well how does Improving them help balance Sorcerers, even assuming T1s are in play ?

I took the point of this thread as being Wizard envy anyway.

it is wizard envy.

[Sgt. Cookie]

As a start, I'd let them be Battle Sorcerers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), but using the ordinary progression. Gives them a little more staying power compared to Wizards. "Oh, look at that, I have no more spells for the day. Guess I'll just stab you in the face, then, eh?"

[ZhanStrider]

So they do... I advocate this entirely because they're apparently the only 9-level casting/manifesting/what-have-you class to not improve on the odd levels. Other than that, the metamagic suggestion seems reasonable.

But a question to the OP: Do they need improving? If you're not talking about incredibly high optimization games, there isn't a difference between Tiers 1 and 2.



Unless it actually matters that you have 11 nukes, (and no, Spinal Tap isn't a reason) there's not much difference. Either way, you can solve all sorts of problems with ease.

It's not really high-optimization per-say, so much as the DM has a bunch of homebrew classes that he REFUSES to make balanced, so every class is much weaker by comparison.

[Deox]

Clearly the way to improving the sorcerer would be to have them get off their lazy butts and into a gym. They can improve their physique and will no longer be reliant on atrocities such as shirts.