Leadership, and an army of lv1 mage/warlock followers.

[MatrixStone93]

The Leadership feat is fun, but the sheer amount of followers and other underlings you pick up at higher Charisma levels is just epic.

But if I wanted my character, possibly half-dragon, to use the Leadership feat and not only have craftsmen, artificers, etc to raise gold and spend gold on itemcrafting for myself and my team, but to also have an army of wizards and warlocks and other casters following him around, casting no-save fixed-damage spells or using a bunch of wands containing powerful attack spells and so on... if my character is level 10 with a charisma of 16 or 16+8 for being half dragon, and I want to begin the epic Leadership abuse as soon as I can, how quickly can this awesome adventure start?

Note: I may instead decide to keep the army of spellcasters hidden, disguised as fangirls and fanboys or something, waiting until the main villain shows up so he can take wand bombardment or long-range warlock spells or both to the face.

[AvatarVecna]

The quickest and easiest path to Leadership abuse is nested Thrallherds with feat-taking psicrystals and Undead Leadership. You can't get Epic Leadership pre-epic that way (or any way other than Pun-Pun that I'm aware of), but with proper TO Leadership stacking, you can get your army of brainwashed and/or zombified minions into the millions before you even get Epic Leadership...which is kind good, because that's the one place where this build suffers, since Thrallherds can't take Leadership, and Epic Leadership requires Leadership.

[MatrixStone93]

Sorry. While I've been playing the games for a while, I'm new to forum terminology. What is TO, how do Nested Thrallherds work, and what books have that?

[OldTrees1]

Sorry. While I've been playing the games for a while, I'm new to forum terminology. What is TO, how do Nested Thrallherds work, and what books have that?

PO and TO:
Practical Optimization(what is allowed at your table)
Theoretical Optimization(what is not allowed at your table and thus things that use it are theoretical exercises)


Nesting Thrallherds(or Nesting Leaders) is when a Thrallherd's 6th level believers(Thrallherd prestige class is in Expanded Psionics Handbook) or a leader's 6th level followers themselves have 6th level believers/followers.

[shawshank]

The Leadership feat is fun, but the sheer amount of followers and other underlings you pick up at higher Charisma levels is just epic.

But if I wanted my character, possibly half-dragon, to use the Leadership feat and not only have craftsmen, artificers, etc to raise gold and spend gold on itemcrafting for myself and my team, but to also have an army of wizards and warlocks and other casters following him around, casting no-save fixed-damage spells or using a bunch of wands containing powerful attack spells and so on... if my character is level 10 with a charisma of 16 or 16+8 for being half dragon, and I want to begin the epic Leadership abuse as soon as I can, how quickly can this awesome adventure start?

Note: I may instead decide to keep the army of spellcasters hidden, disguised as fangirls and fanboys or something, waiting until the main villain shows up so he can take wand bombardment or long-range warlock spells or both to the face.

I assume this means your DM is okay with pc levels for your followers. The books state that your followers are GENERALLY from NPC classes (adept, magewright, expert, warrior, noble). The cohort is always a PC class. Myself and my DM have interpreted that to mean the lieutenants could maybe be PC classes such as the 6th level followers but the level 1's are all npc's or at least 60-70% of them are.

However, if you DM does not mind, then fire away. There is argument about it as there is about everything else in the super fun but poorly written world of DnD 3.5.

[Dondasch]

I've tried to optimize low-level characters for damage, and there are some that really stick out:

Incarnates with Dissolving Spittle. They have an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack at level 1. These guys are probably best if you want to fight high level opponents.
Warlocks with Eldritch Spear are the best when it comes to range.
Binders with Leraje are pretty good at 1st also, provided the enemies are massed. If you can afford to equip them with Elven Double Bows (from the Arms & Equipment Guide), and they have proficiency somehow, they're can chew through large groups of fodder (Ricochet+Elven Double Bow).
2nd level Totemists can be really deadly, but have short range. Bind a Lammasu Mantle to their Totem for an at-will breath weapon, and shape any two of Claws of the Wyrm/Chaos Roc's Span/Dragon Tail for melee potential.



However, since your DM is allowing PC classed followers, he appears to be pretty cheese-tolerant. Therefore, allow me to present a member of the Robot Death Squadron:

Laser McZappy is a Lesser Mechanatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun has Lesser Planetouched rules, Fiend Folio has Mechanatrix). He has taken a single level in Incarnate, and has put most of his stat points into Con and Dex. He shapes Lightning Gauntlets for infinite free healing (Mechanatrix allows healing from electricity) plus an at will touch attack. He also shapes Astral Vambraces, and this is where he invests his essentia; the resulting DR 4/magic gives him an advantage against mundanes of similar level. Now, the Big Thing: he has taken the Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun. This lets him absorb spell levels with a readied action up to a stored maximum of his Con. He can then release this energy as a standard action to produce a 400ft ray that deals 1d6 damage for each spellfire level he spends (so he can deal Cond6 damage at level 1). They get a DC 20 Reflex save for half, but it's still a huge amount of damage. Since spellfire can be fueled by SLAs and spells cast from items, either get a few Warlocks or have your crafters make some resetting spell traps, so he can recharge after every battle.
For extra cheese, convince your DM that since spellfire references the Rod of Absorption, which changed in 3.5, it doesn't even require a readied action to absorb spells with spellfire.

Mass produce these suckers, and march your robot army right over any nearby kingdoms.

[MatrixStone93]

I've tried to optimize low-level characters for damage, and there are some that really stick out:

Incarnates with Dissolving Spittle. They have an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack at level 1. These guys are probably best if you want to fight high level opponents.
Warlocks with Eldritch Spear are the best when it comes to range.
Binders with Leraje are pretty good at 1st also, provided the enemies are massed. If you can afford to equip them with Elven Double Bows (from the Arms & Equipment Guide), and they have proficiency somehow, they're can chew through large groups of fodder (Ricochet+Elven Double Bow).
2nd level Totemists can be really deadly, but have short range. Bind a Lammasu Mantle to their Totem for an at-will breath weapon, and shape any two of Claws of the Wyrm/Chaos Roc's Span/Dragon Tail for melee potential.



However, since your DM is allowing PC classed followers, he appears to be pretty cheese-tolerant. Therefore, allow me to present a member of the Robot Death Squadron:

Laser McZappy is a Lesser Mechanatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun has Lesser Planetouched rules, Fiend Folio has Mechanatrix). He has taken a single level in Incarnate, and has put most of his stat points into Con and Dex. He shapes Lightning Gauntlets for infinite free healing (Mechanatrix allows healing from electricity) plus an at will touch attack. He also shapes Astral Vambraces, and this is where he invests his essentia; the resulting DR 4/magic gives him an advantage against mundanes of similar level. Now, the Big Thing: he has taken the Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun. This lets him absorb spell levels with a readied action up to a stored maximum of his Con. He can then release this energy as a standard action to produce a 400ft ray that deals 1d6 damage for each spellfire level he spends (so he can deal Cond6 damage at level 1). They get a DC 20 Reflex save for half, but it's still a huge amount of damage. Since spellfire can be fueled by SLAs and spells cast from items, either get a few Warlocks or have your crafters make some resetting spell traps, so he can recharge after every battle.
For extra cheese, convince your DM that since spellfire references the Rod of Absorption, which changed in 3.5, it doesn't even require a readied action to absorb spells with spellfire.

Mass produce these suckers, and march your robot army right over any nearby kingdoms.

*Patrick voice* I love you.

Is there a way to make this even cheesier? I heard about a "Chaining Efreeti with Planes and Wish" trick, how does that work?

[Segev]

Chaining efreet is...pretty straight-forward, and utterly broken:

Get a Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation).
Use its gate function to summon an efreeti.
Order the efreeti to grant you three wishes.
Use each wish to wish for another Candle of Invocation (they're well within the 25,000 gp limit of a wish).

Use one of the wishes from each efreeti you summon from here on out to actually get useful effects. Use the other two for more Candles. You have more wishes in your stockpile after each wish you make!



This works because the designers of the Candle forgot to include the exp cost of the Gate effect in their item pricing.

[Sagetim]

The Leadership feat is fun, but the sheer amount of followers and other underlings you pick up at higher Charisma levels is just epic.

But if I wanted my character, possibly half-dragon, to use the Leadership feat and not only have craftsmen, artificers, etc to raise gold and spend gold on itemcrafting for myself and my team, but to also have an army of wizards and warlocks and other casters following him around, casting no-save fixed-damage spells or using a bunch of wands containing powerful attack spells and so on... if my character is level 10 with a charisma of 16 or 16+8 for being half dragon, and I want to begin the epic Leadership abuse as soon as I can, how quickly can this awesome adventure start?

Note: I may instead decide to keep the army of spellcasters hidden, disguised as fangirls and fanboys or something, waiting until the main villain shows up so he can take wand bombardment or long-range warlock spells or both to the face.

I....What? Half Dragon gets a +2 to Charisma, the +8 they get goes into Strength. Leadership (as far as I know) isn't keyed to your strength modifier. Anyway, if you're going epic level, then use the leadership feat. If you aren't going epic level and you know it, then go thrallherd. Thrallherd's can hit the leadership cap without any charisma modifier because their effective leadership score counts the thrallherd prc levels twice. On purpose. Also, they get believers and thralls. Believers are superior to followers. Because you can get believers killed and it won't lower your leadership. And you'll get new ones within 24 hours. And so on...The best reason to pick up leadership if you're going to go into epic levels is to pick up epic leadership, because it has a scaling table that goes beyond a leadership score of 25, and there's an epic leadership based feat (which requires 30 charisma) that multiplies your followers by 10. There are also a lot of leadership feats that you can take along the way to epic levels, though that does mean you won't be using those feats for other cheese.

On the bright side, half dragon's +3 ecl can be bought off (assuming those rules are in play from Unearthed Arcana) by the time you would reach epic levels anyway, so that's helpful.

I can't remember, does thrallherd have an epic level progression? It should. It really really should. And it should probably have the epic level feats built into it as class features, since it's normal class features already have 'better than normal leadership' built into it anyway.

[Ruethgar]

Might makes right gets Str to leadership as I recall. Go with a Magic Bloodled Lesser Assimar as the base and you get +4 to Cha, add on the Draconic and Half Dragon templates then the template classes and you get a very dragony(3 halves) +8 more Cha and a nice +26 Str. Bonus points, the draconic template class has 4 levels technically so you can do LA buyoff that much sooner if you drop the Half Dragon template it goes at a reasonable rate.

[Sagetim]

Might makes right gets Str to leadership as I recall. Go with a Magic Bloodled Lesser Assimar as the base and you get +4 to Cha, add on the Draconic and Half Dragon templates then the template classes and you get a very dragony(3 halves) +8 more Cha and a nice +26 Str. Bonus points, the draconic template class has 4 levels technically so you can do LA buyoff that much sooner if you drop the Half Dragon template it goes at a reasonable rate.

That's completely insane. I think the GM of my thursday games would say 'that's wonderful, do it.' But I think most gm's would be more than willing to just say no. Anyway, that's template stacking and so on, it's not a 'half dragon' it's a 'piling on of various templates'. A gloriously high strength piling of templates with an incredible strength score, but as monstrous as it is powerful. Or maybe really really bishounen with that much charisma.

[Ruethgar]

Its not really various templates, it is only two, Draconic and Magic Blooded.

[Socratov]

That's completely insane. I think the GM of my thursday games would say 'that's wonderful, do it.' But I think most gm's would be more than willing to just say no. Anyway, that's template stacking and so on, it's not a 'half dragon' it's a 'piling on of various templates'. A gloriously high strength piling of templates with an incredible strength score, but as monstrous as it is powerful. Or maybe really really bishounen with that much charisma.

becuase Thursday is silly-day, opposite day, or some variation or permutation thereof? :smallconfused:

Or do you have a DM on thursdays who like his players to throw whatever they have at his sick and insane encounters?

[Sagetim]

becuase Thursday is silly-day, opposite day, or some variation or permutation thereof? :smallconfused:

Or do you have a DM on thursdays who like his players to throw whatever they have at his sick and insane encounters?

I posted a summary of my thursday game as the 5th post in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433751-Epic-PC-Answers-and-Epic-DM-Rebuttals

So...yeah, we have some crazy encounters and a DM who is often a bit too willing to say yes to things. We also have players that sometimes throw encounters at the party too...despite also having characters in the party...

[MatrixStone93]

I love you all. Roll20 can suck it, THIS is the best gaming site.

I really want to play that 3/4ths Dragon now. What would he look like? Can I
I give him epic hair and a moustache?

Also, how does level buyoff work? I don't think I have that book.

[Socratov]

I posted a summary of my thursday game as the 5th post in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433751-Epic-PC-Answers-and-Epic-DM-Rebuttals

So...yeah, we have some crazy encounters and a DM who is often a bit too willing to say yes to things. We also have players that sometimes throw encounters at the party too...despite also having characters in the party...

Now that really sounds like a fun game

[MatrixStone93]

Srsly. I have a moustache IRL, and after some dumb running gag became a houserule, all my characters get a +1 morale bonus on one thing a day if I give them my moustache.

[MatrixStone93]

Really, what is level buyoff? Also, I have never played a Level Adjustment character before.

Are there LA races that give you bonus levels for being something weak?

Also, how would one stat Lelouch Vi Brittania?

[nedz]

I've tried to optimize low-level characters for damage, and there are some that really stick out:

Incarnates with Dissolving Spittle. They have an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack at level 1. These guys are probably best if you want to fight high level opponents.
Warlocks with Eldritch Spear are the best when it comes to range.
Binders with Leraje are pretty good at 1st also, provided the enemies are massed. If you can afford to equip them with Elven Double Bows (from the Arms & Equipment Guide), and they have proficiency somehow, they're can chew through large groups of fodder (Ricochet+Elven Double Bow).
2nd level Totemists can be really deadly, but have short range. Bind a Lammasu Mantle to their Totem for an at-will breath weapon, and shape any two of Claws of the Wyrm/Chaos Roc's Span/Dragon Tail for melee potential.



However, since your DM is allowing PC classed followers, he appears to be pretty cheese-tolerant. Therefore, allow me to present a member of the Robot Death Squadron:

Laser McZappy is a Lesser Mechanatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun has Lesser Planetouched rules, Fiend Folio has Mechanatrix). He has taken a single level in Incarnate, and has put most of his stat points into Con and Dex. He shapes Lightning Gauntlets for infinite free healing (Mechanatrix allows healing from electricity) plus an at will touch attack. He also shapes Astral Vambraces, and this is where he invests his essentia; the resulting DR 4/magic gives him an advantage against mundanes of similar level. Now, the Big Thing: he has taken the Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun. This lets him absorb spell levels with a readied action up to a stored maximum of his Con. He can then release this energy as a standard action to produce a 400ft ray that deals 1d6 damage for each spellfire level he spends (so he can deal Cond6 damage at level 1). They get a DC 20 Reflex save for half, but it's still a huge amount of damage. Since spellfire can be fueled by SLAs and spells cast from items, either get a few Warlocks or have your crafters make some resetting spell traps, so he can recharge after every battle.
For extra cheese, convince your DM that since spellfire references the Rod of Absorption, which changed in 3.5, it doesn't even require a readied action to absorb spells with spellfire.

Mass produce these suckers, and march your robot army right over any nearby kingdoms.

Human Sorcerer 1 with Metamagic School Focus and Fell Drain
or <any> Wizard 1 with the same
Fell Drain Sonic Snap

[Sagetim]

Now that really sounds like a fun game

It is.

Level Adjustment Buyoff rules are in Unearthed Arcana, page...18? The entire book is a pile of alternate and optional rules.

Also, just because you Can calculate the xp reward for killing a CR 29 creature with a level 14 party, doesn't mean you Should. I think the lesson of the day is: Don't feed your Teratomorphs.

[FocusWolf413]

Really, what is level buyoff? Also, I have never played a Level Adjustment character before.

Are there LA races that give you bonus levels for being something weak?

Also, how would one stat Lelouch Vi Brittania?

He'd be a human, half elf, or aasimar, have average physical stats, a 16+ starting intelligence, and somewhere between 12 and 14 wis and cha. There's about 3 different kinds of builds that I think work for him.

He could be a bard going into mindbender and sublime chord (for mindrape), even though he has the wrong stats. Bard is a good fit because they are manipulative, observant, and natural leaders. The spells are also pretty spot on.

He could be a warlock for the at will charm person, going into mindbender. This works with the whole "it's an at will ability that was given to him by another being" theme.

He could be some kind of psion, going into thrallherd, and maybe with a dip into mindbender if that's allowed. This fits his ability to command armies.

None of those three ways fit him perfectly.

[Socratov]

He'd be a human, half elf, or aasimar, have average physical stats, a 16+ starting intelligence, and somewhere between 12 and 14 wis and cha. There's about 3 different kinds of builds that I think work for him.

He could be a bard going into mindbender and sublime chord (for mindrape), even though he has the wrong stats. Bard is a good fit because they are manipulative, observant, and natural leaders. The spells are also pretty spot on.

He could be a warlock for the at will charm person, going into mindbender. This works with the whole "it's an at will ability that was given to him by another being" theme.

He could be some kind of psion, going into thrallherd, and maybe with a dip into mindbender if that's allowed. This fits his ability to command armies.

None of those three ways fit him perfectly.

now actually all he needs is to get Geas as an SLA. Because whatever he does is so strong a compulsion that it's beyond charm person... So a straight wizard 12 going into archmage or something like that. bonus: it focuses on intelligence so you can dump charisma for his cold demeanor...

[FocusWolf413]

now actually all he needs is to get Geas as an SLA. Because whatever he does is so strong a compulsion that it's beyond charm person... So a straight wizard 12 going into archmage or something like that. bonus: it focuses on intelligence so you can dump charisma for his cold demeanor...

If you're going to use an intelligence based caster, a beguiler is thematically a much better option. Taking warlock for a few levels let's you get charm person as an at will SLA.

You also can't dump charisma. Yes, he's generally heartless, but you need to be in order to be a good military commander. His abilities to manipulate, negotiate, rally troops, and get the support of the commoners without geas shows that he probably has a 14+ charisma.

[MatrixStone93]

If you're going to use an intelligence based caster, a beguiler is thematically a much better option. Taking warlock for a few levels let's you get charm person as an at will SLA.

You also can't dump charisma. Yes, he's generally heartless, but you need to be in order to be a good military commander. His abilities to manipulate, negotiate, rally troops, and get the support of the commoners without geas shows that he probably has a 14+ charisma.

Correct. So, Intelligence-based caster with good charm and mindrape abilities?

[Socratov]

If you're going to use an intelligence based caster, a beguiler is thematically a much better option. Taking warlock for a few levels let's you get charm person as an at will SLA.

You also can't dump charisma. Yes, he's generally heartless, but you need to be in order to be a good military commander. His abilities to manipulate, negotiate, rally troops, and get the support of the commoners without geas shows that he probably has a 14+ charisma.


Correct. So, Intelligence-based caster with good charm and mindrape abilities?

basically, yeah...

[FocusWolf413]

Correct. So, Intelligence-based caster with good charm and mindrape abilities?

Making him a warlock/beguiler/Eldritch Theruge might be the best option because you get at will Charm and all of the beguiler spells, but you can't properly build Lelouch without getting Mindrape as an at will SLA.

[MatrixStone93]

Making him a warlock/beguiler/Eldritch Theruge might be the best option because you get at will Charm and all of the beguiler spells, but you can't properly build Lelouch without getting Mindrape as an at will SLA.

I'm okay with this.

Urge... to play Lelouch in a game... rising!

If we included the flaws necessary to accurately represent him, what would this build look like?

[FocusWolf413]

I'm okay with this.

Urge... to play Lelouch in a game... rising!

If we included the flaws necessary to accurately represent him, what would this build look like?

I think you would need to homebrew some. The first one that comes to mind is that he can't turn his geas off.

[MatrixStone93]

That's no biggie. I don't mind playing as a souped-up Lelouch.