Build Help-Swashbuckler

[Stuvius]

My gaming group is starting a new campaign soon at level 2. We have played core only until this point but have decided to open up to the "Complete" books as well as the MIC. I am considering a swashbuckler from the Complete Warrior. I really like the concept from a thematic and RP perspective. I have played fighters and rangers up until now and I am unsure of how to most effectively build a PC with this class. Any suggestions on feats, weapons etc., would be really helpful.

[Hiro Quester]

A party member is playing a rogue3/swashbuckler X/daring outlaw Y build.

I think that's a standard way to get swashbuckler and rogue levels to stack for sneak attack. Relies on flanking.

I don't know any details, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a feat in Complete Scoundrel called Daring Outlaw, which allows your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels to stack when determining your sneak attack damage, plus a few more minor benefits.

Starting at 2nd level, begin play as a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) (core Monster Manual) Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 1 with Two-Weapon Fighting. Take your next level in Rogue, then the next in Swashbuckler, then Rogue, etc. until you're at Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 3, then keep taking more Swashbuckler levels for the rest of your career. Get Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW) at 3rd and use an Elven Lightblade and an Elven Thinblade (CW p154), and get Daring Outlaw at 6th, Improved TWF at 9th, Greater TWF at 12th, and whatever else you think you'll need after that. At 20th level you'll be a Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16 with a +19 BAB and 10d6 sneak attack.

[Stuvius]

Thank you for the suggestions! I think I will try that build. Sounds fun.

[marphod]

Be very careful with the Swashbuckler.

While the class has a lot of flavor, it also has a lot of issues. It has Multiple Attribute Dependence (MAD), as you need Dex to hit things and not get hit, Int and Strength to do do damage, Con to stay alive, and Charisma to actually have the class flavor that is appropriate for the archetype.

Power-wise, you're better off going Fighter than Swashbuckler. There are very few things the Swashbuckler gets that are better than a feat every other level.

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That said, if Complete Scoundrel is in, you can take Daring Outlaw and mitigate a lot of the problems with Swashbuckler. It reduces your Strength dependence as you now have Sneak Attack dice. It means your saves won't suck as badly. The Dodge bonus, however, remains worthless. It gets you rogue class features.

See if your DM will allow you to take the Shield of Blades Alternate Class Feature (ACF) from Players Handbook2 (PHB2) (Not relevant until 5th level, but good to know). This replaces the (single enemy, nigh-useless) Dodge class feature with a Shield bonus against all opponents (becomes mostly useless). The requirement is to attack with 2 light weapons in a round, which means Two-Weapon Fighting until you have iterative attacks, but at that point, you can make your full BAB attack with one weapon and your iterative attack with the other, and get the bonus.

Two Weapon Fighting is often a trap. There are numerous threads as to why TWF is weaker than other options (archery or 2 handed weapons), but in short, be careful if you decide to go that route. You can go down that rabbit hole spending only 1 feat (TWF) iff you get yourself Gloves of the Balanced Hand by +6 BAB or so. You never get your third iterative attack with your off hand, but this cuts the feat requirement from 3 to 1, which makes it more viable. You also need to find a way to get a full attack in every round, so look around for things that give you the ability to 'Pounce' (make a full attack after a charge). The most common way is a single level dip into Barbarian for the Lion Spirit ability from Complete Champion. The other alternative is to take the Travel Devotion feat (also Complete Champion) that lets you make a move as a swift action for 10 rounds (once a day). The less advised method is to pick up levels in Dervish, which has some advantages (Scimitars will work with Shield of Blades, Dervish Dance adds to damage and gives you intra-attack mobility) and some disadvantages (Dodge and Mobility are AWFUL feats; you need a _lot_ of ranks in a Perform Skill, aren't a bard, and the skill couldn't be used for Bardic music even if you were).

So my advice, using the 16,15,14,12,10,8 array:

Human (or the Halfling subrace that gets a feat at 1st) Rogue 1/Swash 1
(Going to Rogue 1, Swash +2, Rogue +2, Swash +1 and getting Daring Outlaw at 6th level. I don't know of any way to get Daring Outlaw before then; you can get Grace and 2d6 SA by level 4, but I don't think DO is on any relevant bonus feat list.)
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 15
Wis 8
Cha 12
(Mechanically, Wis 12, Cha 8 is stronger, but misses the charming knave archetype for swashbuckler completely. If you are going to do the Cloistered Cleric Dip, which is another thread entirely, you probably want to swap Wis and Str, and put a +1 attribute modifier into Wisdom so you can USE the spells from the dip.).

1) Two Weapon Fighting
H) Travel Devotion
Rogue 1) +1d6 SA, Trapfinding (see if you can trade this for a better ACF)
Swash1) Weapon Finesse
Swash2) Grace +1
3 feat) ?
Swash3) Insightful
Rogue2) Evasion
Rogue3) +2d6 SA Trapsense +1 (again/still, see about swapping for another ACF)
6) Daring Outlaw

Dual-wield Shortswords. At least, until you get a level of Dervish (when you can dual-wield scimitars; and don't take more than 3 levels of Dervish)

At level 2, you're attacking Standard Action (assuming Masterwork weapons, but without Flanking): at +5/1d6+1d6SA Full Attack: +3/+3 // 1d6+1d6 SA.

Your saves are Fort +4, Refl +5, Will -1. Your AC is probably +7 (Chain Shirt, Dex)

At level 6, you should be at BAB +5, put your 4th level stat point into Int, and your attacks are (Assuming +1 weapons with 1d6 elemental enchantment, before any buffing from allies or flanking): Standard: +9/1d6+4+1d6 elemental + 3d6 Sneak Attack, Full Attack +7/+7 (same damage).

Your Saves are before buffs/magic Fort +6, Refl +8, Will +1. Your AC is probably around +10 (Chain Shirt +1, Dex, Shield of Blades +2)

Next Level is probably Rogue 4, to get Sneak Attack up to 4d6 and get you Uncanny Dodge. This will also get your BAB to +6, so with your Gloves of the Balanced Hand, you're making up to 4 attacks a round.

After that? You've got plenty of options. Same with what to do with your 3rd level Feat.

[HughJ]

Is ToB on the table?