[PF] Necromancer question.

[Mindtour]

Hey Giant people, I'm back to ask yet another question. I will be playing in a Rise of the Runelords campaign soon starting from level 1. I've decided to cover the arcane caster aspect of the group and have chosen Wizard to do so. I went with Necromancy because I like the idea of having my own personal meatshield, and I adore spells like Magic Jar, Enervation, and debuffs in general.

My main question is; is it feasible for me to create/control 1 lone, stronger undead creature to serve as my minion? I'm not into the hordes of weak creatures.

For reference, we have a Summoner, Ranger, Druid, and Barbarian. We also get a free feat at 1st level and my character is an elf. Thanks for your time reading and hopefully answering this.

[Brova]

I don't know exactly what PF changed about necromancy, but the choice of a single undead (or at least, a relatively small number of undead) was basically the way to go in 3.5. The issue is that there aren't any guidelines for how you can get corpses to animate, so you may be stuck with whatever low level chaff the adventure throws at you.

[Mindtour]

I don't know exactly what PF changed about necromancy, but the choice of a single undead (or at least, a relatively small number of undead) was basically the way to go in 3.5. The issue is that there aren't any guidelines for how you can get corpses to animate, so you may be stuck with whatever low level chaff the adventure throws at you.

I'd be willing to go with 2, perhaps 3 minions, but as I said I'd rather steer clear of hordes. If there are no other options, I suppose the Gravewalker archetype for Witch would do. I'll just miss the wide range of Wizard spells.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd be willing to go with 2, perhaps 3 minions, but as I said I'd rather steer clear of hordes. If there are no other options, I suppose the Gravewalker archetype for Witch would do. I'll just miss the wide range of Wizard spells.

At level 6 the witch takes Spirit Talker and gets Cha mod in wizard spells a day that they get free choice in. I believe it is the Lore Spirit.

[Psyren]

Of course it's viable - you're a wizard, buying a dachshund would be viable :smalltongue:

Employing their Command ability does make you MAD though, because you'll need a decent Charisma, especially if you make something with channel resistance that you then have to control.

[Mindtour]

Of course it's viable - you're a wizard, buying a dachshund would be viable :smalltongue:

Employing their Command ability does make you MAD though, because you'll need a decent Charisma, especially if you make something with channel resistance that you then have to control.

My Cha score is sitting at 15 at first level, and I've taken Improved Channel as my bonus feat at 1st. I'll more than likely take Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd, which will set my up to start making headbands. I think I can cover Charisma for the moment.

[Segev]

If you can afford it, a wand of Animate Dead would go a long way at low level.

In 3.5, I would recommend giving up your familiar for a skeletal minion, but that's not available in UAPF. Sorry; typo. UA is where the alternate class feature for the skeletal minion comes from.

[Mithril Leaf]

Make sure to purchase a Voidstick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/voidstick) and Bone Razor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bone-razor) for bonus Hit Dice of controlled undead and increased Hit Points overall.

[Psyren]

My Cha score is sitting at 15 at first level, and I've taken Improved Channel as my bonus feat at 1st. I'll more than likely take Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd, which will set my up to start making headbands. I think I can cover Charisma for the moment.

If you're starting with a 15 that should be fine for the most part, there's no need to put Cha in your headband and delay your access to a +6 Int one. Though, since you plan to have a strong meatshield, you don't need to pump Int to the nines either and you can also get away with fewer Con.

[Mindtour]

I guess I need to clarify. What will be my best bet for creating mindless undead? Just the zombie variants made of the biggest, baddest critter I can find? I'll want to make sure my DC is way high before I start making anything powerfully intelligent. Intelligently powerful. Power-... You know what I mean.

[Aldrakan]

I guess I need to clarify. What will be my best bet for creating mindless undead? Just the zombie variants made of the biggest, baddest critter I can find? I'll want to make sure my DC is way high before I start making anything powerfully intelligent. Intelligently powerful. Power-... You know what I mean.

If you're looking for a one-few powerful minions I might prefer the bloody skeleton over a zombie variant. Sure a skeleton maxes out at 20 HD, but until you have the ability to find and raise 20+ HD corpses that's not a concern.
Admittedly a weird rules issue is that a skeleton variant counts as twice the HD for the maximum you can raise with one animate dead casting, while a zombie variant stupidly does not (although d20pfsrd does contain a note pointing out this difference and advising the GM to decide if it's "fair" to apply this to them too, so ask your GM how they're ruling). Still all else equal, if your minions aren't disposable, I'd go for ones that self heal and come back to life after an hour rather than ones that make you go searching for another giant corpse.

But basically yes, as far as I know as a wizard your best bet is going to be animate dead for a good long time.

[Psyren]

Also go with the "Undead" necromancy subschool. This trades your "grave touch" power (weak) for a much more powerful "Bolster" ability you can use on your minion to power it up while saving spell slots.

[Mindtour]

I also just reread the specialization bonus feat Command Undead on the SRD. The feat duration says it's 1 min/level, as per the effects of control undead. That has to be wrong, right?

[Aldrakan]

I also just reread the specialization bonus feat Command Undead on the SRD. The feat duration says it's 1 min/level, as per the effects of control undead. That has to be wrong, right?

No that is correct and it is completely stupid. Command Undead (the feat) replicates Control Undead (the spell). Command Undead (the spell) has a much longer duration but can only target one at a time.

Edit: Sorry, I misread your question. The text of the feat strongly implies that it's permanent for nonintelligent, it just works like control undead nwhile it's active.

[Mindtour]

Alright. Thank you all for your input.

[Psyren]

No that is correct and it is completely stupid. Command Undead (the feat) replicates Control Undead (the spell). Command Undead (the spell) has a much longer duration but can only target one at a time.

It's an artifact from 3.5, which has the same issue. Basically Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) (the spell) would actually be more accurately described as "Charm Undead", except they couldn't call it that (undead are immune to charms) but the effect is a little stronger against mindless undead. But for intelligent undead, the effect is the same as a charm - you don't control the undead, rather it treats you as friendly and perceives your words and actions favorably.

By contrast, when an evil cleric "commands undead" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#evilClericsandUndead) he is actually controlling that undead like a mental puppet, even if it is intelligent. Thus this actually fits better with the Control Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm) spell.

So PF caused the evil cleric ability to align more with the control undead spell. The problem though is backwards compatibility - all the 3.5 stuff that affects Rebuke and Command refers to that by name, even though the Command Undead spell is completely different. So they couldn't change the name, even though it would be better named as Control Undead (and better yet it now even just invokes that spell) - so here we are.

[Segev]

Wait, PF clerics don't have permanent control over undead they successfully use Rebuke/Command to command? o_O

Wow, that's a huge nerf.



I did always tend to view the Command Undead cleric power (not the command undead spell) to be not really a mental domination so much as an iron control that enslaves their very will. Like it or not, their thoughts and deeds are bent to the service of the cleric's unholy commands; they might hate serving him, but they have to do what he says to the best of their ability to interpret it. This includes, for particularly gifted undead, highly complex and even creative tasks. They're not puppets; they're slaves who lack free will (but not ability to have emotional reactions to what they're forced to do and towards their master).

[Psyren]

Wait, PF clerics don't have permanent control over undead they successfully use Rebuke/Command to command? o_O

Wow, that's a huge nerf.

It is permanent over the non-intelligent ones (e.g. skeletons and zombies.) For intelligent ones, yes they get a daily save to throw it off, but quite honestly, controlling something intelligent should be risky.

[Segev]

It is permanent over the non-intelligent ones (e.g. skeletons and zombies.) For intelligent ones, yes they get a daily save to throw it off, but quite honestly, controlling something intelligent should be risky.

Oh. I thought I read in this thread that it explicitly gave it the 1 min/level duration.

[Psyren]

Oh. I thought I read in this thread that it explicitly gave it the 1 min/level duration.

No - it only has the effects of control undead, not the other characteristics (it is not subject to SR either for example.)

[Mindtour]

Oh. I thought I read in this thread that it explicitly gave it the 1 min/level duration.

No, that was me rereading the Wizard's Necromancy school specialization. My lower levels are reeeeally going to suck. :P

[JerichoPenumbra]

Depending on how you go and if you're able to, I'd also recommend Experimental Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power) at 5th level to pick up Undeath (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power/effect-words/undeath). Same level as Lesser Animate Dead and functions similarly, but can cast at range, has no material component, is not restricted to small or medium corpses, and can animate multiple creatures in one go if cast as a higher level spell using the Boost meta-word. On the note of no material components, False Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/false-focus) can be used with Animate Dead to make Bloody Skeletons of humanoids at basically no cost.

I understand that this may not be useful since you where hoping on having a few or just one strong undead minion instead of a horde, unfortuately that is usually better reserved for Clerics. Hope it helps.