Hiding in mid-combat for Sneak Attack bonuses?

[Cynthaer]

I've seen a lot of discussions about how Hide and Sneak Attack interact, but I haven't seen this specific scenario addressed:

In combat, a level 1 Rogue uses a Move Action to move half her normal speed to cover and make a Hide check, beating the opponent's Spot check. She then uses a Standard Action to attack the opponent, getting Sneak Attack damage but losing the "hidden" effect.

As far as I can tell, this maneuver works and is repeatable every round so long as there is cover and the Hide checks are successful. But since I've never seen it mentioned, I feel like I'm probably missing something, perhaps related to this line:


If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

The enemy is obviously observing me, but I'm running behind cover -- though the enemy would have seen me moving behind that cover. At the end of the day, what does this all mean for my ability to deny my opponent's Dex bonus to AC?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, the quote indicates the problem. If you're in plain sight everyone's observing you. Moving to ordinary cover or concealment satisfies one of the requirements to use the Hide skill, but not the "not being observed" one. Your Rogue would need to move through an area with total cover or total concealment to gain the "not being observed" condition. In such a place, with no possible observers, a Hide check is meaningless and not allowed. The Rogue would then need to move into a different place with ordinary cover/concealment to be allowed to Hide.

If the environment offers such opportunities to temporarily break line of sight (large trees, perhaps) and then gain cover/concealment (maybe nearby shrubs), the Rogue could Hide each time they make the maneuver.

[Jowgen]

Curmudgeon has the right of it ( #Shocker :smalltongue: ) . What does and does not qualify as "observered" is admittedly sketchy in terms of definition, but most people agree that breaking line of sight means you're no longer observed.

A few addendums:

- The bluff skill allows you to create a distraction for the purposes of hiding (probably by breaking obeserved-ness). It escapes me what kind of action this takes though.
- There are hide-skill rules for moving between cover and sneaking up from cover/concealment, which can allow you to count as hidden even when you step out from behind total cover. The specifics escape me, but it's pretty limited in that it give you hide-penalties and depends on how many ranks you have in hide. Not sure where the rules originally appeared, but they were reprinted in the rules compendium.
- Always important to note that Hide and MS are rolled as part of movement, rather than being actions themselves. The exception are the Sniping Rules, which allow you to hide without moving after attacking as a move action (hint: not an optimal strategy).
- Hide in Plain Sight -depending on version- can obviate the need for unobserved-ness and potentially cover/concealment. Dark creature template (ToM for Ex, C:TotW for Su) is generally considered a good source.

[Cynthaer]

That all makes sense, thanks.

As a followup, what happens if I attempt to use a 90-degree corner to both break line-of-sight/-effect and serve as cover? For instance:




Me



Wall
Wall



Wall




Wall

Badguy



I use a Move Action to shift left 5ft (mutual total cover) and then right 5ft, making a Hide check. Then I Standard Attack as usual for Sneak Attack damage. Rinse and repeat.

This again feels like something that maybe shouldn't work, but I couldn't tell you why?

[Doc_Maynot]

A feint (In-combat Bluff action) should work to grant you SA. If successful it denies your opponent their Dex against your next attack, thus procing SA.

[Curmudgeon]

That all makes sense, thanks.

As a followup, what happens if I attempt to use a 90-degree corner to both break line-of-sight/-effect and serve as cover? For instance:




Me



Wall
Wall



Wall




Wall

Badguy



I use a Move Action to shift left 5ft (mutual total cover) and then right 5ft, making a Hide check. Then I Standard Attack as usual for Sneak Attack damage. Rinse and repeat.

This again feels like something that maybe shouldn't work, but I couldn't tell you why?
No, it'll work OK — but probably only for one attack. You won't be hidden from Badguy at the end of your turn, and Badguy will probably move to attack you, changing the relative geography.

[Cynthaer]

No, it'll work OK — but probably only for one attack. You won't be hidden from Badguy at the end of your turn, and Badguy will probably move to attack you, changing the relative geography.

Oh, awesome. I suppose the balancing factors are the lack of scaling with multiple attacks, not being hidden during the opponent's turn, and the reliance on a fairly specific environment. But hey, as a level 1 core rogue, you take sneak attacks where you can get them. :smallsmile:

[Sagetim]

I've seen a lot of discussions about how Hide and Sneak Attack interact, but I haven't seen this specific scenario addressed:

In combat, a level 1 Rogue uses a Move Action to move half her normal speed to cover and make a Hide check, beating the opponent's Spot check. She then uses a Standard Action to attack the opponent, getting Sneak Attack damage but losing the "hidden" effect.

As far as I can tell, this maneuver works and is repeatable every round so long as there is cover and the Hide checks are successful. But since I've never seen it mentioned, I feel like I'm probably missing something, perhaps related to this line:



The enemy is obviously observing me, but I'm running behind cover -- though the enemy would have seen me moving behind that cover. At the end of the day, what does this all mean for my ability to deny my opponent's Dex bonus to AC?

One: That you probably want hide in plain sight as soon as possible.
Two: There are ways around this, such as with the bluff skill.
Three: In the vein of bluffing, there's a dagger based rogue prestige class that I don't recall the name of in 3.5. If you take that prestige class, you can pick up bluffing as a free action to feint in combat, letting you sneak attack the hell out of stuff.
Four: That's a very specific trick through, so lets look at moving and hiding and so on away from bluffing for feints and what have you-

When you run behind cover, yes the enemy saw you go back there, but if you succeed your hide check, they don't necessarily see you come back out. This is because you have broken line of sight with them. Once you are out of line of sight, you can make a hide check. In some situations you might have to break line of effect (I think blindsight would be one of those situations, but with blind sight they can detect you if you're within range anyway).

While it's probably not going to come up at low level (because you won't be able to afford a +1 ghost touch, ghost striking weapon to let you crit and sneak attack undead) there are some undead that can detect life in addition to their regular senses. This will ruin your day as a sneaker, because you don't have a means of hiding your life force (generally speaking). If your DM isn't making custom monsters, then this has a much lower chance of ever being a problem. But it's something to be aware of.

Back to low level capabilities: If there is a pile of darkness sitting around (such as what a tiefling might drop from it's spell like ability, or a low level wizard might use for...some reason) you can use that to break line of sight and hide. Magical darkness isn't very forgiving for seeing out of or through, however, so that's going to work in your favor for getting hidden, and against you if you try to fight anyone while staying in the darkness.

Also, in your specific example, bear in mind that you can't take a five foot step and then also move in the same round. And some DM's might say that moving back and forth like that constitutes two move actions (one to move one way, the other to move back and make your hide check). Just as a heads up.

[Ogh_the_Second]

... Back to low level capabilities: If there is a pile of darkness sitting around (such as what a tiefling might drop from it's spell like ability, or a low level wizard might use for...some reason) you can use that to break line of sight and hide. Magical darkness isn't very forgiving for seeing out of or through, however, so that's going to work in your favor for getting hidden, and against you if you try to fight anyone while staying in the darkness. ...

I don't think that's true, as Darkness does not generate true darkness, only shadowy illumination. Thus, it grants (non-total) concealment, and does not break line of sight. Obscuring mist would work, though.

[Cynthaer]

One: That you probably want hide in plain sight as soon as possible.

The actual campaign is a small level 1-5 core affair, so that's fairly unlikely. :smallsmile:


Three: In the vein of bluffing, there's a dagger based rogue prestige class that I don't recall the name of in 3.5. If you take that prestige class, you can pick up bluffing as a free action to feint in combat, letting you sneak attack the hell out of stuff.

Invisible Blade (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Invisible_Blade_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) from Complete Warrior?


Also, in your specific example, bear in mind that you can't take a five foot step and then also move in the same round. And some DM's might say that moving back and forth like that constitutes two move actions (one to move one way, the other to move back and make your hide check). Just as a heads up.

If you were asking about my example where I'm shooting around the corner, I was treating that as a normal Move action covering 10 feet (5 feet left and then 5 feet right).

[Doc_Maynot]

If you were asking about my example where I'm shooting around the corner, I was treating that as a normal Move action covering 10 feet (5 feet left and then 5 feet right).

The issue with that is without a feat you can't attack in the middle of a move action. And while I know doing so melee has spring attack, I'm not sure if there is a ranged version.

[Ogh_the_Second]

The issue with that is without a feat you can't attack in the middle of a move action. And while I know doing so melee has spring attack, I'm not sure if there is a ranged version.

But Cynthaer does not attack in the middle of a move action. It's first a move (including Hide), and then a single attack with Sneak attack.

[Cynthaer]

The issue with that is without a feat you can't attack in the middle of a move action. And while I know doing so melee has spring attack, I'm not sure if there is a ranged version.

I think you're interpreting the movement backwards. I'm not starting outside of line of sight, moving to the corner to shoot, and then retreating back out of line of sight again to wait for my next turn in safety. Rather, I'm starting at the corner, taking one contiguous move to break line of sight and come back to the corner, and then shooting -- leaving me visible to my opponents until my next turn.

In other words, the diagram shows where I'm starting and ending the turn, not the middle of the turn.

[Necroticplague]

The issue with that is without a feat you can't attack in the middle of a move action. And while I know doing so melee has spring attack, I'm not sure if there is a ranged version.

They do, it's called Shot on the Run.

[Sagetim]

The actual campaign is a small level 1-5 core affair, so that's fairly unlikely. :smallsmile:



Invisible Blade (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Invisible_Blade_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) from Complete Warrior?



If you were asking about my example where I'm shooting around the corner, I was treating that as a normal Move action covering 10 feet (5 feet left and then 5 feet right).


Yes, the Complete Warrior Invisible Blade is the class I was thinking of. However, it's a 5 level prc, the dnd wiki is...wrong. Among other things, it's a 5 level prestige class, not 10 level, and it's not limited to once per round in doing it's feint. This is just another instance of 'why I don't like the dnd wiki'.

Anyway, at level 1 to 5 you don't need to worry about prestige classes and other such things. But if you can use distractions to get enemies to split up, you can potentially assassinate them with sneak attacks. Ideally, you'll get monsters to wander over towards the rest of your party one at a time so you can open up with a surprise round sneak attack, and if that doesn't kill outright follow that up with your party hopefully killing it before it can alert any other monsters.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, the Complete Warrior Invisible Blade is the class I was thinking of. However, it's a 5 level prc, the dnd wiki is...wrong. Among other things, it's a 5 level prestige class, not 10 level, and it's not limited to once per round in doing it's feint.
You might want to check out the Complete Warrior Errata:
Page 46: Invisible Blade’s Uncanny Feint (class feature)
The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability once per round.

[Sagetim]

You might want to check out the Complete Warrior Errata:

That errata depresses me. But it still doesn't turn the 5 level prc into a 10 level prc with an epic progression :P

[Andezzar]

- Always important to note that Hide and MS are rolled as part of movement, rather than being actions themselves. The exception are the Sniping Rules, which allow you to hide without moving after attacking as a move action (hint: not an optimal strategy).The sniping rules are pretty useless. For the same modifier (-20) you can just remain hidden during your attack(s).
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

[...]

Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.


- Hide in Plain Sight -depending on version- can obviate the need for unobserved-ness and potentially cover/concealment. Dark creature template (ToM for Ex, C:TotW for Su) is generally considered a good source.The Ex version of HiPS from the Dark Creature template does not obviate the need for concealment. Both versions fail in daylight.