lvl1 Minotaur Melee build. Longterm ideas?

[Ken_Rawr]

Hi Guys,
Got a couple days before the weekend to work out a character build. So here's the deal:
Party = lvl5wizard + lvl5priest + ME.

I can make a lvl5 character.. I wanna play a melee minotaur to fill the tanking role. Will be rolling dice for stats the day we play so stats will be random:(

The idea is to fill the tanking spot and either do alot of damage in the process or just be an unbreakable tank. DM is allowing me to play a minotaur but without any class levels, so just being a mino is costing me my 5 levels. I do like the idea of playing a mino alot and am looking to invest in this character and let it grow classwise in the longrun.

I was reading up on forums, as i am very rusty in dnd. I came across the Warblade class and that really seems like an awesome playstyle. Any advice for a Minotaur Warblade build? Anyone know a nice feat/manouvre/stance progression combo for being a nice tank or damager? As a Mino Warblade should i just forget about charging and focus on 2handed or TWF?

Also the idea of a paladin sounds fun.. Big good old mino in full plate mail.. Looks awesome and prolly can take a beating. Would give some interesting roleplay as a minotaur paladin too. Any ideas on Mino Paladin efficiency/build?



DM allows me to play minotaur lvl1 with stats=

STAT BONUS:
strength = +4
dexterity = /
stamina = +2
intelligence = -2
wisdom = /
charisma = -1

hit points : 8 + 4d8 + (stamina modifier x 5)
skill points : (5 x 2)+(5 x intelligence modifier)

Racial Skill Bonus:
intimidation +6
jump +5
listen +8
search +8
spot +8

Saves:
fort = 2 + stamina modifier
reflex = 5 + dexterity modifier
will = 5 + wisdom modifier

FEATS: Power Attack, +1 extra feat I choose

MINOTAUR SPECIALS:
Size: Large
reach 10ft
speed 30 ft
AC: -1 size, +5 natural armor, + dexterity modifier
darkvision 60ft
Scent
Natural Cunning
immune to maze spell, never get lost, able to track enemies , never gets caught flat footed
HORN CHARGE= 4D6 + 1.5x Str Mod
WEAPON PROFICIENCY: all simple weapons + axes(martial)

[OldTrees1]

You liked Paladin and liked Warblade. You should look into Crusader.

You are Large size. You should consider the feat Knockback. You also have access to the War Hulk prestige class(one benefit is your attacks hit 3 squares rather than 1 target).

So I would suggest Minotaur 5 / Crusader X.

[dysprosium]

I like minotaurs too but the RHD and LA can be brutal.

If you want to play a +0 LA minotaur, check out the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. There are the Krynn minotaurs. They have no racial Hit Dice either.

You would get to spend all of your levels allowed on class levels.

The only downside is that Krynn minotaurs are medium creatures. You could use a reach weapon to give you back that reach would have had as a "standard" minotaur.

Others will echo this sentiment but Crusaders are more "tank-ish" than other classes because of their maneuvers and stances. Two Handed Weapons would play into its strengths (and reach weapons are two handed weapons).

[Lerondiel]

You liked Paladin and liked Warblade. You should look into Crusader.

You are Large size. You should consider the feat Knockback. You also have access to the War Hulk prestige class(one benefit is your attacks hit 3 squares rather than 1 target).

So I would suggest Minotaur 5 / Crusader X.


Agreed Crusader would make the OP his perfect tank idea.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there's only 2 other PCs and one of them is very squishy. If the campaign is a lot of dungeon crawling and the large Minotaur can block doorways/passageways, choosing Crusader means they're just not getting through.

But if the campaign is likely to feature a lot of open areas and things like 6 raging orcs are bearing down on you, you have to control the battlefield and Knockback/tripping becomes vital rather than optional. In that case something like Fighter2/Warblade18 is higher on offense and would do that better.

[Ken_Rawr]

Agreed Crusader would make the OP his perfect tank idea.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there's only 2 other PCs and one of them is very squishy. If the campaign is a lot of dungeon crawling and the large Minotaur can block doorways/passageways, choosing Crusader means they're just not getting through.

But if the campaign is likely to feature a lot of open areas and things like 6 raging orcs are bearing down on you, you have to control the battlefield and Knockback/tripping becomes vital rather than optional. In that case something like Fighter2/Warblade18 is higher on offense and would do that better.


Thanx alot for the responses guys. Really appreciate it.

The idea of a crusader sounds very nice. Solid tank and i like the roleplay concept. Tanking in full plate, self-healing, self+group buffing, and crowd control.. sounds like a solid tank class indeed, just too bad im the only melee so i cant buff allies to full potential. I sent the DM an email linking Warblade class yesterday. Waiting on him to confirm if i can play it as a class. Ill send him Crusader now.

So i will go for Crusader because..
One of the kewl things about Crusader is you dont have to be a classic goody twoshoes paladin. Can be chaotic and just go for your goal instead of diety oriented behavior, which is something that really appeals to me. DM said i have to start in a town the party is going to pass through. Im planning on playing a Minotaur Bar owner or something allong those lines. My Tribe was invaded and enslaved by ?Orcs?. So i am looking for help to free my people, but have since kinda settled down there. This will be my basis for becoming a Crusader once i join the party and gain a level to select Crusader class. Motivation=free my enslaved tribe. Neutral Chaotic? This motivation gives me a reason to leave my Bar.

I found a really nice thread with Crusader Building advice:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181655-Spirit-of-Steel-The-Crusader-s-Handbook-WIP


Any ideas on a weapon i should use keeping in mind i am Large size?
2handers= best damage, large size for even more reach/damage.
TWF= not so good?
Shield= better tanking? Shield bash for bit extra damage and providing extra miss chance? Does a Large mino get nice damage bashing with his really big tower shield?
Crowd Control= Trip+Knockback (huge feat investment and large damage loss?)

Im guessing i should either go for 2handed or shield and combine that with trip and/or knockback.
Shield+trip+knockback could be too heavy feat investment tho?

[Red Fel]

Any ideas on a weapon i should use keeping in mind i am Large size?
2handers= best damage, large size for even more reach/damage.
TWF= not so good?
Shield= better tanking? Shield bash for bit extra damage and providing extra miss chance? Does a Large mino get nice damage bashing with his really big tower shield?
Crowd Control= Trip+Knockback (huge feat investment and large damage loss?)

Im guessing i should either go for 2handed or shield and combine that with trip and/or knockback.
Shield+trip+knockback could be too heavy feat investment tho?

Okay. Running through the options you've listed. Two-handed weapon: This is ideal. The numbers are there - you deal more damage with a single two-handed weapon than with other arrangements. Further, some of the better reach weapons - and you want a reach weapon if you can - are two-handed. If possible, go with this. Two-weapon fighting: Not so good. You really need to specialize in it to be able to do it with any degree of accuracy, it requires a more Dex-based than Str-based build, and you need damage increasers to make your multiple smaller hits count, such as Sneak Attack. You're not built for TWF. Sword and board: Shield bashing, like TWF, is something you have to spec for if you want to do it well. More importantly, the AC bonus you get isn't worth the drop in power. Further, Crusaders actually benefit from taking a certain amount of damage, thanks to the delayed damage pool and its effects; becoming too untouchable negates that advantage.
For crowd control, the typical suggestion is to use Thicket of Blades stance and a reach weapon to get AoOs on everything that moves in your (substantial) range, then Improved Trip and either Stand Still or Knock-Down. The idea is that, when you take an AoO, you can either knock enemies prone or stop their movement entirely. For more abuse, you can take feats like Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, which provoke AoOs when you're attacked, and couple them with maneuvers that penalize enemies when you aren't attacked, such as the Defensive Rebuke boost and the Iron Guard's Glare stance.

Another useful trick is to take a Barbarian dip, and grab the Whirling Frenzy ACF and the Spirit Lion Totem ACF. The former changes Rage into Whirling Frenzy, which adds an extra attack to your rotation. The latter changes Fast Movement into Pounce, allowing you to make a full attack on a charge. The combination of the two allows you to dive headfirst into a group of enemies, placing them all in your threatened range, and allowing you to use your lockdown combo if any of them move.

A solid Crusader is feat-intensive, it's true. But the result is someone very able when it comes to lockdowns and damage-dealing.

[Ken_Rawr]

Okay. Running through the options you've listed. Two-handed weapon: This is ideal. The numbers are there - you deal more damage with a single two-handed weapon than with other arrangements. Further, some of the better reach weapons - and you want a reach weapon if you can - are two-handed. If possible, go with this. Two-weapon fighting: Not so good. You really need to specialize in it to be able to do it with any degree of accuracy, it requires a more Dex-based than Str-based build, and you need damage increasers to make your multiple smaller hits count, such as Sneak Attack. You're not built for TWF. Sword and board: Shield bashing, like TWF, is something you have to spec for if you want to do it well. More importantly, the AC bonus you get isn't worth the drop in power. Further, Crusaders actually benefit from taking a certain amount of damage, thanks to the delayed damage pool and its effects; becoming too untouchable negates that advantage.
For crowd control, the typical suggestion is to use Thicket of Blades stance and a reach weapon to get AoOs on everything that moves in your (substantial) range, then Improved Trip and either Stand Still or Knock-Down. The idea is that, when you take an AoO, you can either knock enemies prone or stop their movement entirely. For more abuse, you can take feats like Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, which provoke AoOs when you're attacked, and couple them with maneuvers that penalize enemies when you aren't attacked, such as the Defensive Rebuke boost and the Iron Guard's Glare stance.

Another useful trick is to take a Barbarian dip, and grab the Whirling Frenzy ACF and the Spirit Lion Totem ACF. The former changes Rage into Whirling Frenzy, which adds an extra attack to your rotation. The latter changes Fast Movement into Pounce, allowing you to make a full attack on a charge. The combination of the two allows you to dive headfirst into a group of enemies, placing them all in your threatened range, and allowing you to use your lockdown combo if any of them move.

A solid Crusader is feat-intensive, it's true. But the result is someone very able when it comes to lockdowns and damage-dealing.


Awesome breakdown of my weapon options. Yeah i guess ill go for some 2hander and get knockdown. Knockdown sounds more useful then just making them stand still, but i havent looked at the feats yet. Prone/on ground seems like it would give +bonus/-penalty with possible disarm, compared to just stopping in their tracks.

As for a dip into Barbarian.. i dunno. Im already loosing 5lvls due to being a minotaur so multiclassing is gonna get me even more behind on party xp. Lets see if the DM agrees with Mino favored class Barbarian. I was thinking of maybe going Crusader/Warblade. That way Warblade increases my manouver/stance reportoir, D12hp, and nice perks like Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Ardor. My crusader manouvers will keep refreshing in encounters providing nonstop stuff to do, and my Warblade manouvers will give me a variaty of options from the getgo.

Are there 2handed weapons you would recommend for my character? Best options concerning damage and/or knockdown/trip? Maybe theres some kewl minotaur specific 2handers?

[torrasque666]

Remember that your initiator levels for Warblade and Crusader will be different. Say you go Crusader 4/Warblade 2. You'd have an Crusader initiator level of 7 (Crusader levels+ToB PrCs+(All other classes/2)) and a Warblade initiator level of 6 (Warblade levels+ToB PrCs+(All other classes/2)). This limits the maneuvers you can take when you would gain a new one.

[Red Fel]

As for a dip into Barbarian.. i dunno. Im already loosing 5lvls due to being a minotaur so multiclassing is gonna get me even more behind on party xp. Lets see if the DM agrees with Mino favored class Barbarian. I was thinking of maybe going Crusader/Warblade. That way Warblade increases my manouver/stance reportoir, D12hp, and nice perks like Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Ardor. My crusader manouvers will keep refreshing in encounters providing nonstop stuff to do, and my Warblade manouvers will give me a variaty of options from the getgo.

Multiclassing doesn't get you "behind" unless your DM enforces a multiclassing penalty (which is a dumb rule); even if he does, "xp is a river" and you'll catch up. That said, others have mentioned that you can go with a Krynn Minotaur to avoid the ECL adjustment. Alternatively, you could take any race and add the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon Magazine; it's only +1 LA, no RHD, makes you bigger, adds ability scores and special features, including a gore attack. In short, it does everything you want from Mino without the waste.

Or you could ask about LA buyoff.

I'd advise against going with Warblade and Crusader, though. It's not that they don't mix, it's just that you do better picking one and sticking with it than going with both and spreading your class features thin. Also, there's the fact that your maneuver lists don't mix; Warblade maneuvers are Warblade maneuvers, recovered by Warblade mechanic, and Crusader maneuvers are Crusader maneuvers, recovered by Crusader mechanic. It creates more confusion and paperwork than you need.


Are there 2handed weapons you would recommend for my character? Best options concerning damage and/or knockdown/trip? Maybe theres some kewl minotaur specific 2handers?

The Spiked Chain is the default go-to. It's cheap, deals 2d4 damage, has reach but can still be used against adjacent foes, gives a disarm bonus, and can be dropped if a trip attempt goes wrong. Another option, if you don't want to take EWP, is the Guisarme, with reach and triple crit, and that handy trip-drop option. Note further that if you do go with Warblade, the Weapon Aptitude class feature means that if you decide to take EWP, you need only take it once, and can thereafter shift it between any exotic weapons you possess (albeit one at a time).

[torrasque666]

Or you could ask about LA buyoff.
He's already getting a kinda good deal from his DM. From what it appears, he's getting away with just 5 RHD and no LA. Sure, his HP might be a bit behind (darn d8 full bab dice. why?) but he has full bab which is half-decent. They give Good saves on his weak ones. His skill points get hit in the kneecaps but depending on his build that may not be horribad​.

[Ezekiul]

Are there 2handed weapons you would recommend for my character? Best options concerning damage and/or knockdown/trip? Maybe theres some kewl minotaur specific 2handers?

As mentioned by Red Fel, the spiked chain is one of the best reach weapons as you don't suffer from not being able to attack enemies that are too close. Being a minotaur you could also consider selling the GM on the Minotaur Greathammer in MMIV (1d12 19-20 X4) which is one of the strongest damage wise, but you would need to get reach through other methods if you wanted more battlefield control.

A build I once played that was a lot of fun was a half-minotaur Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Ordained Champion 5 using the feats Knockback and Smiting Power (add attack bonus from smite to bull rush check and deal smite damage on bull rush) combined with dungeoncrasher for some serious bull rush shenanigans. I just babysat my casters and readied charges for anyone who moved in close.

Edit: give credit were credit is due :tongue:

[ComaVision]

The Krynn Minotaur or the Half-Minotaur template (LA+1) would be way better choices, so you aren't losing 5 levels.

[torrasque666]

As mentioned by torrasque, the spiked chain is one of the best reach weapons as you don't suffer from not being able to attack enemies that are too close.

Nope. Red Fel.

[Ken_Rawr]

The Krynn Minotaur or the Half-Minotaur template (LA+1) would be way better choices, so you aren't losing 5 levels.

Ill look into the half-minotaur template.. would be great if i could actually start with class levels instead of just being a basic minotaur. +1LA means? Ill lose only 1 level for being a half-minotaur? I thought my DM told me it was only a monster manual stat to help him judge monster toughness and had no impact whatsoever if i played a special race.

As for initiator levels, i hadnt really thought about it. Yeah i guess maybe go only Crusader with an eventual dip elsewhere. Since i would be a Neutral Chaotic Crusader id meet the Chaotic requirement for Barbarian already.

Spiked Chain does sound perfect for my intentions.. Bummer it requires Martial Weapon feat. So it has a reach of 10ft.. My Large size gives me natural 10ft reach... so my total reach would be 20ft? That's really wicked.

[Ken_Rawr]

Was googling for the half-minotaur template.. got a bunch of finds but basically they are all different and i know my DM wont accept homebrew. We are basically using 3.0books i think, old books anyways. Do any of you know a link to the official template? Im mainly finding what seems like really overpowered homebrew stuff.

Most balanced and authentic one i find is from Forgotten Realms.. This isnt dnd is it?

[ComaVision]

Was googling for the half-minotaur template.. got a bunch of finds but basically they are all different and i know my DM wont accept homebrew. We are basically using 3.0books i think, old books anyways. Do any of you know a link to the official template? Im mainly finding what seems like really overpowered homebrew stuff.

Most balanced and authentic one i find is from Forgotten Realms.. This isnt dnd is it?


That link is correct, it's from Dragon Magazine. You might want to remove the link before the mods come about, though.

EDIT: Also, your DM is wrong about LA. It's literally to say how many class levels you need to give up to play that race. Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#levelAdjustment)

Also, you're probably playing 3.5 if you aren't sure but you may want to check because there are some differences.

[OldTrees1]

Most balanced and authentic one i find is from Forgotten Realms.. This isnt dnd is it?
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/half-minotaur.shtml

That is the one and that is D&D. It is from Dragon Magazine #313 and is overpowered since it gets a total of +12 Str, however if you ignore "See Creature Size Changer for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there." then it becomes strong but reasonable.


That said, I think you are getting a decent deal already from your DM. I would have been more generous but that does not detract from how good a deal your DM offered.

[ComaVision]

That is the one and that is D&D. It is from Dragon Magazine #313 and is overpowered since it gets a total of +12 Str, however if you ignore "See Creature Size Changer for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there." then it becomes strong but reasonable.


I believe that was the intention when they made it. Poor editing, probably :smallsigh:

[Ken_Rawr]

That link is correct, it's from Dragon Magazine. You might want to remove the link before the mods come about, though.

EDIT: Also, your DM is wrong about LA. It's literally to say how many class levels you need to give up to play that race. Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#levelAdjustment)

Also, you're probably playing 3.5 if you aren't sure but you may want to check because there are some differences.

Ok removed the link, didnt know that wasnt allowed. Sorry.
Yeah i dont think DM would allow all those additional stats just for size increase and then also get half-mino stat increase. He'll prolly says it sounds like uber op +++stats fishing.
I sent him a mail to look at the HalfMino template. He still has to approve of crusader too:/

[Red Fel]

Ill look into the half-minotaur template.. would be great if i could actually start with class levels instead of just being a basic minotaur. +1LA means? Ill lose only 1 level for being a half-minotaur? I thought my DM told me it was only a monster manual stat to help him judge monster toughness and had no impact whatsoever if i played a special race.

ComaVision explained LA, but here's the gist. There are, generally, three things which can contribute to effective character level (ECL):Class levels Level adjustment (LA) Racial hit dice (RHD)
LA is an arbitrary number that says "This monster is stronger than usual, so you lose out on class levels to play it." On the plus side, if your DM allows, LA can be bought off over time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), allowing you to catch up with the party.

RHD are core elements of the monster. They're almost like class levels, in that they contribute to HP, skill ranks, and feats. Unlike LA, RHD cannot be bought off.

For example, a Human Fighter 5 has 5 class level (of Fighter), no RHD, and no LA. He has an ECL of 5. Replace him with, say, a Goliath (which has LA +1) and you have an ECL of 6, from 5 class levels and 1 LA. Tack on hit dice, and you've got even more.

Your standard Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) has 6 RHD and a +2 LA. That means that a Minotaur Fighter 1 has an ECL of 9 (1 from class levels, 2 from LA, and 6 from RHD). That means he's supposed to be the equivalent of a 9th-level character. I don't need to tell you that's not the case.

That's why people are recommending the Krynn Minotaur race, or the Half-Minotaur template. You lose those pesky RHD, and reduce the LA to something extremely manageable. And if your DM thinks that it's some cheesy attempt at stats... Well, that's partially true. While many people go for templates for flavor, we in the forums tend to pursue an optimization standpoint. And the fact is, the Half-Minotaur template is really rather good from an optimization standpoint. Big stat boosts, a size increase, a natural attack, Darkvision, this is stuff that's great for melees. But it's also solid flavor-wise, and worth considering. Still, if he vetoes it, he vetoes it.


As for initiator levels, i hadnt really thought about it. Yeah i guess maybe go only Crusader with an eventual dip elsewhere. Since i would be a Neutral Chaotic Crusader id meet the Chaotic requirement for Barbarian already.

Barbarians don't have to be Chaotic. They just have to be non-Lawful. You can have a Neutral Good Barbarian, for instance. Go with whatever you'd like.

[Ken_Rawr]

Thanx again for all the advice guys. Being really rusty in dnd its helping tons.
I only have like 36 hours left before we play and was just on the phone with the DM when a big storm hit. Now the storm's interfering and we cant call. He was about to say if he approved of Crusader when the line went dead:(
Well, hopefully i can talk to him tomorrow so i dont go roleplay blind without knowing what class/race are approved. I'd hate to make a quick last minute character with rest of party waiting.

Ideally.. if he approves everything, im thinking ill go for a Half-Minotaur Template with 4Crusader levels wielding a Spiked Chain. Guess then ill just have to pick some manouvers/stance and use a feat to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the Spiked Chain. If he allows me to keep human base characteristics in half-mino template ill have the human extra feat to compensate for having to take Exotic Weapon Prof.

Warblade's weapon proficiency flexibility is sounding fun if i take exotic weapon prof, but i love the roleplay concept of a Neutral Chaotic Full-Plate Half-Mino 'Paladin'.

Stone Power feat seems pretty nice for a tanking crusader.. Especially since i'm the one and only Melee character. Extra hp and basically negates downsides of Crusader's delayed damage pool and Furious counterstrike bonus. Might be a "must" to take this?

[ComaVision]

Stone Power feat seems pretty nice for a tanking crusader.. Especially since i'm the one and only Melee character. Extra hp and basically negates downsides of Crusader's delayed damage pool and Furious counterstrike bonus. Might be a "must" to take this?

It doesn't scale very well. Up to 10 temporary HP/round at ECL 5 is OK but at 10 it's not very helpful and it's all downhill from there. Power Attack is better. Other feats I'd grab in your place would be: Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and Stand Still. Make sure you grab the Thicket of Blades stance when you can.

[Ken_Rawr]

Yay, just talked to the DM. He had only read my first email linking Warblade and said it was approved. Crusader/Half-Minotaur template he hadnt looked at yet. Crusader I can play if i make a printout of the abilities/skills/feats so i can show what my abilities do. He said he would look at the Half-Minotaur template and will probably approve it, including the extra +size stats. Ill get a definite responce by tomorrow from him after he looks at the links.

Im so happy, looks like i can make a whooping tank to fill in that role for the squishy caster party. This is gonna be awesome to roleplay too.


Race: Half-Minotaur(human)
Weapon: Spiked Chain (Large)
Armor: Full Plate (Large)
Align: Neutral Chaotic
Motivation: Free my enslaved tribe

Ok i just realized freeing my enslaved tribe.. Im now playing half-minotaur, not full minotaur. Guess the minotaurs kept me in their tribe and i am loyal to them. Or i want to free a village of humans.. Ill figure something out for this. Is there any other race you guys can think of likely to adopt me as a half-minotaur? Maybe some woodelves. Nice, our party priest is a woodelf i just realized.

Class description Crusader:
Devoted knight, divine agent, instrument of vengeance, peerless fighting machine — the crusader is a warrior dedicated to good, evil, law, chaos, or some other cause.

--"Or some other cause": As i interpret it.. i can be unrelated to a diety, and just be a crusader focused on liberating my enslaved tribe?
--Is this the only description available of the crusader class?

[Ken_Rawr]

It doesn't scale very well. Up to 10 temporary HP/round at ECL 5 is OK but at 10 it's not very helpful and it's all downhill from there. Power Attack is better. Other feats I'd grab in your place would be: Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and Stand Still. Make sure you grab the Thicket of Blades stance when you can.

Yeah at first i was thinking why take Stand-Still if i already take Combat Expertise+Imp.Trip+Knock-Down.. But stand still triggers whenever someone moves in/out of my threat range.
My threat range as Large with a Spiked chain will be what.. 2squares? This means i can even stop enemies from coming into melee range to hit me? Heh, kewl!

DM told me when i was talking about playing a minotaur that.. minotaur Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.

A regular human takes up 1Square(5ft).. so my reach is 2x Square.. does the Spiked Chain add extra reach ontop of this? That would be pretty sick.

[Red Fel]

Yay, just talked to the DM. He had only read my first email linking Warblade and said it was approved. Crusader/Half-Minotaur template he hadnt looked at yet. Crusader I can play if i make a printout of the abilities/skills/feats so i can show what my abilities do. He said he would look at the Half-Minotaur template and will probably approve it, including the extra +size stats. Ill get a definite responce by tomorrow from him after he looks at the links.

If you need an additional resource for him (and for you), grab this link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). It contains printable maneuver cards. Printing cards and shuffling them into a deck makes it easy for you to manage their use and refresh mechanic, and sharing the link with the DM allows him to understand what they can do.


Class description Crusader:
Devoted knight, divine agent, instrument of vengeance, peerless fighting machine — the crusader is a warrior dedicated to good, evil, law, chaos, or some other cause.

--"Or some other cause": As i interpret it.. i can be unrelated to a diety, and just be a crusader focused on liberating my enslaved tribe?
--Is this the only description available of the crusader class?

This is mostly fluff. There is more to the class in the book, but that's pretty much fluff too. The concept (again, fluff) is simply a zealous, dedicated knight. What you do with that is up to you.

I think a CN warrior dedicated to freedom is a great concept. "Breaker of Chains" is an awesome title.

As for your question regarding reach weapons, per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons):
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Note, however, that a Spiked Chain lets you also attack adjacent creatures. Thus, a Large creature wielding a Large Spiked Chain threatens everything within 20 feet.

[Ken_Rawr]

Thanx for those awesome links Red Fel. Im gonna use those cards for sure.

Care to clarify manouver application for me a bit? Im not clear on how it applies to attacks.


Most manouvers say, Casting Time: 1 standard action.
Making an attack is a standard action.
Multiple attacks takes a full action.

My Manouver question is:
---Does a manouver with casting time 1 standard action only apply if you only do 1 attack in your round?
A lvl16 Crusader has BaB +16/+11/+6/+1 to do 4attacks/round. So would I have to choose between doing my 4xattack or one manouver attack at +16?

Currently thinking of feats line to go for.

1)Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain)
2)Combat Reflexes
3)Combat Expertise ->Improved Trip->Knock-Down
4/Stand Still
=6feats

Im gonna be heavily armored, does this affect combat reflexes and make it semi-useless?
Combat Reflexes: "a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus"
Is that my naked dexterity bonus or the max dex bonus stat on my worn armor?

[torrasque666]

My Manouver question is:
---Does a manouver with casting time 1 standard action only apply if you only do 1 attack in your round?
A lvl16 Crusader has BaB +16/+11/+6/+1 to do 4attacks/round. So would I have to choose between doing my 4xattack or one manouver attack at +16?

Pretty much, yeah.


Im gonna be heavily armored, does this affect combat reflexes and make it semi-useless?

Nope. the Max Dex bonus on armor applies only​ to AC. Nothing else.

[TheifofZ]

Nope. the Max Dex bonus on armor applies only​ to AC. Nothing else.

See, I only learned this recently, even though I've been playing for years. I still have a faint handprint on my face from how hard I facepalmed.
But yes, Crusader Minotaur is cool.
I actually am doing a similar build with a similar style; half ogre marshal 2/ crusader something or other, with a theme on protecting the innocent.
I've been debating on whether I want to dip warblade and go for master of the nine or just whole hog it into crusader.
Either way, a couple feats spent into tripping and AoOs can turn the giant off-breeds into formidable, unmoving walls of meat.
(I wanted to do full ogre, which would have been weaker in the long run. But the DM still remembers and has nightmares about my full ogre fighter/warhulk with dungeoncrasher, improved bullrush, and knock back. I miss Crunch and his warhammer Thaco.)

[Ken_Rawr]

How do i get an army to follow my Crusader? (Stats will be rolled upon start of gamesession. So Charisma is unknown.)

Just talked to DM about background. My tribe was enslaved by some unknown group of strange people i had never seen before. He said compare it to belgium being attacked not by germans or french, but by a group of aboriginals. They offered mirrors and trinkets in exchange for ownership of our lands, but when this took too long they just attacked (think of Indians in Amerika 1600).
I am in a town the party is going to pass through. I asked the town leader for help since he is a mage with a fort and militia. He wont help, but gave permission to get any adventurers to help me if they want. Adventurers seem to want money, so i am working and by the time party passes by ill have enough money to hire some adventurers.
So im now thinking of becoming a freedom fighter crusader who is rounding up an army to retake his homeland and free its people. Our party would be me+2casters so previously i was discounting all melee party buffing Crusader manouvers. But with the option of making an army of melee guys, i can actually put these manouvers to good use.

Any advice on how i can accomplish getting an army?
I already need +/- 6feats to be a crowd control tank, so i'd prefer not to use too many feats for this, although a good 1feat might be really worth taking.

[OldTrees1]

The Leadership feat(Dungeon Masters Guide) is intended to handle things like tribes/armies/guilds. However it is a strong enough feat that some DMs ban it. I would suggest putting ranks in Diplomacy and asking your DM about how you could lead your tribe.

[Ken_Rawr]

Yeah i was reading up on leadership. Seems like a nice skill indead.

Size: Medium->Large:
+8Str, -2Dex, +4Con, +3NatArm, -1AC/Att
Half-Minotaur Template:
+4Str, +2Con, -2Int, +2NatArm
TOTAL INCREASE(Size+Template):
+12Str, -2Dex, +6Con, -2Int, +5NatArm, -1AC/Att

DM said he will let me get both bonuses from size increase and half-mino template. Hope my math checks out.
I dont see any loss to charisma.. So even if i put one of my lower stats in charisma, it'll still be an ok score if no -s. And if only 1 feat grants me a band of followers to accomplish my goals and put my manouvers to full potential it seems like a good way to go. And if a party member changes to a melee character ill be able to put my skills to use on a real character then.

[TheifofZ]

If you're looking into Leadership, remember that the DM has final say in if it flies or not in the first place, that it requires 6th level to obtain, and that you get to decide on all the guys that show up when you take it, meaning you can fill in the party's weak spots fairly well.
There's also a feat somewhere out there, the name of which escapes me at the moment, that lets you add Strength to your leadership score as well as charisma.

Someone help me out here on the name of that?
Failing the actual leadership feat, if you're a leader of the tribe then just smack some ranks into diplomacy and just act like you're the boss. If the DM is cool with you being the leader, then he'll make the tribe NPCs and will have them treat you as chieftain.

[Ken_Rawr]

I think you mean Epic Leadership. Requires Leadership and 25Cha.
Yeah if i roll stats and get some decent rolls so i have a decent stat to put into Cha i will be going for leadership for sure.
This will make my melee party boosting maneuvers useful if i get followers. Else im just stuck with 2casters PCs.

I need some help understanding Initiator levels though. Cant find the formula for it. What is ToB/PrCs?

I might take a 2lvl dip in barbarian wolf totem. How does this impact my initiator level?
I figure 2lvl Barb dip will eliviate my feat heavy lockdown build by letting me skip Combat Expertise and get straight to Improved Trip. Plus the perks of Fast Movement are worthwhile. Human base 30ft speed, +10ft(half-minotaur), +10ft(barb)= base speed 50ft.
I just cant wear heavy armor for movement benefits. Medium armor is still decent tho. If after some play i notice i need more AC i'll just swap to heavy armor.

[torrasque666]

I need some help understanding Initiator levels though. Cant find the formula for it. What is ToB/PrCs?

I might take a 2lvl dip in barbarian wolf totem. How does this impact my initiator level?
I figure 2lvl Barb dip will eliviate my feat heavy lockdown build by letting me skip Combat Expertise and get straight to Improved Trip. Plus the perks of Fast Movement are worthwhile. Human base 30ft speed, +10ft(half-minotaur), +10ft(barb)= base speed 50ft.
I just cant wear heavy armor for movement benefits. Medium armor is still decent tho. If after some play i notice i need more AC i'll just swap to heavy armor.
ToB is Tome of Battle, the book where Initiators come from. PrC is Prestige Class.

The 2 level dip will raise your IL by 1 for all Initiator classes. Tome of Battle..... I believe only the Warblade was released online so if you can't find a copy, you're out of luck and I can't suggest other means. The formula is on page 39 of the Tome of Battle though, under both Initiator Level and Multiclass Martial Adepts.

[Ken_Rawr]

Ok here's what I have worked out to start with. 5lvls to spend on making character.
--1lvl lost to playing Half Mino/Human race.
--1lvl Barbarian to start with
--3lvl Crusader
---->next lvl after playing xp I I'll prolly do 2nd lvl dip in Barbarian for Imp.Trip feat.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=THE FINAL STARTING BUILD=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

=================Half-Mino/Human Bonuses=================
TOTAL INCREASE(Size+Template):
+12Str, -2Dex, +6Con, -2Int, +5NatArm, -1AC/Attack
Speed: 40ft [30ft(Human)+10ft(Half-Mino)]
Free Feats Half-Mino: Track, Scent
Free Feats Human: 1 free feat
Skill Bonus Half-Mino: +2 Search, Spot, Listen.
Skill Bonus Human: +4sk points lvl1, +1sk point each add.lvl
Darkvision 60ft
Gore Damage: 1d8
Minotaur Cunning: +4 Int check on maze spells, Always knows North.
================================================== =======
FEATS:
Free human=Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain)
lvl1=Leadership or Combat Reflexes
lvl3=Combat Reflexes or Extra Granted Maneuver
=================CLASS STATS=============================
Barbarian 1: Wolf Totem
1d12HP
Special: Rage 1/day (+4Str,+4Con,+WillsaveMorale,-2AC, +2hp/lvl. Dur=3+ConMod)
Special: Fast Movement +10ft=40+10=50ft

Crusader 3:
3d10HP
Special: Furious counterstrike (+1 for DamPool1-9)
Special: Steely resolve 5(Delayed Dam Pool)
Special: Indomitable Soul (Will Saves= +Cha Bonus)
Special: Zealous surge (1/day, reroll save throw)
Stances Known: 2
1)Iron Guard's Glare [Stance][SWIFT][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) threatened = -4 atk vs allies.
2)Thicket of Blades [Stance][SWIFT][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Foes threatened provoke AoO if they move.
Maneuvers Readied: 5(2)
Maneuvers known: 6
1)Douse the Flames [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Target cant make AoO 1round
2)Leading the Attack [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Ally vs target=+4Morale to atk roles. 1rnd.
3)Charging Minotaur [Strike][FRA](Stone Dragon) dmg=2d6+StrMod, no AoO from move/bullrush. Pushback 5ft+ w/o need to follow.
4)White Raven Tactics [Boost][Swift][Cru3,1WRman](White Raven) Initiative changer
5)Defensive Rebuke [Boost][SWIFT][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Each trg struck=AoO if melees ally. 1rnd.
6)Revitalizing Strike [Strike][SA][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Heal 3d6+1/initlvl Max+10
================================================== =======

Feats I will be taking:
-)Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain)
-)Leadership
-)Combat Reflexes
-)Combat Expertise ->Improved Trip->Knock-Down
-)Extra Granted Maneuver
-)Stand Still

[Ken_Rawr]

Meh, just noticed i have to rework my known maneuvers. Was reading requirements wrong. Guess i cant take 3rd lvl maneuvers if im 3rd lvl crusader:(

[Ken_Rawr]

Ok here's the revised Known Maneuvre list for Crusader3/Barb1.. Im guessing this gives me Initiator lvl3.5.

1)Mountain Hammer [Strike][SA][Cru2](Stone Dragon) +2d6dmg, overcomes Hardness/DamReduction
2)Crusader's Strike [Strike][SA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) Heal 1d6+1/initlvl Max+5
3)Douse the Flames [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Target cant make AoO 1round
4)Leading the Attack [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Ally vs target=+4Morale to atk roles. 1rnd.
5)Charging Minotaur [Strike][FRA](Stone Dragon) dmg=2d6+StrMod, no AoO from move/bullrush. Pushback 5ft+ w/o need to follow.
6)Battle Leader's Charge [Strike][FRA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) Charge w/o AoO, +10dmg.

[torrasque666]

2 things: Edit button exists.

And its probably easier to just write it as Initiator Level 3, as it rounds down. Unless you were making a joke...

[OldTrees1]

lvl1=Leadership or Combat Reflexes
Leadership requires 6th level.

[Ken_Rawr]

Thanx for pointing that out. I woulda noticed that this evening when i created it after rolling stats, but nice to be prepared:)
As for saying i have Initiator lvl3.5.. I know it rounds down but its to let me know next barb lvl ill get another initiator lvl.

What you guys think of my known manouvers at Barb1/Crusader3 ?
I felt like there were only like 4 i wanted.

1)Crusader's Strike [Strike][SA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) Heal 1d6+1/initlvl Max+5
2)Douse the Flames [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Target cant make AoO 1round
3)Leading the Attack [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Ally vs target=+4Morale to atk roles. 1rnd.
4)Charging Minotaur [Strike][FRA](Stone Dragon) dmg=2d6+StrMod, no AoO from move/bullrush. Pushback 5ft+ w/o need to follow.
5)Battle Leader's Charge [Strike][FRA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) Charge w/o AoO, +10dmg.
6)Mountain Hammer [Strike][SA][Cru2](Stone Dragon) +2d6dmg, overcomes Hardness/DamReduction


Ok so current maneuvers known i have both Charging Minotaur and Battle Leader's Charge.. Seems like a waste to know 2 basically the same maneuvers, but i really dont see anything else worth getting other then maybe replace one with Vanguard Strike(worse then Leading the Attack). Reason im taking both charges is I'm basically unsure which is better. Battle leader seems to have better dam with the straight up +10dmg. Is Charging Minotaur's +2d6dmg affected by aura of chaos stance later? It lets all your damage dice get rerolled if max rolled or just those of your melee weapon? Like stone dragon hammer manouvers do +Xd6, those count in aura of chaos too?

[Ken_Rawr]

Well guys, im heading to roleplay in about 30 minutes. I've been out of roleplay for a couple months and looking forward to rejoining my roleplay friends with a well worked out character concept.
Before i go, i just wanted to give you guys a big thumbs up and lots of thanks for all your advice.

Thanx for all the help! You guys are great!
This forum+community rocks!

*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*THE FINAL STARTING BUILD=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Concept: (short version)
Im a barb living in a tribe consisting of 70%Minotaur, 10%Humans married with minotaurs and some dwarven merchants who have settled, 20%Half-Minotaurs. Some badguys come and enslave us. I manage to escape. I become a Crusader, Neutral Chaotic "freedom fighter".
Motivation1=Free my people.
Motivation2=Free any people supressed by outsiders.

=========================Half-Mino/Human Bonuses========================
TOTAL INCREASE(Size+Template):
+12Str, -2Dex, +6Con, -2Int, +5NatArm, -1AC/Att
Speed: 40ft [30ft(Human)+10ft(Half-Mino)]
Free Feats Half-Mino: Track, Scent
Free Feats Human: 1 free feat
Skill Bonus Half-Mino: +2 Search, Spot, Listen.
Skill Bonus Human: +4sk points lvl1, +1sk point each add.lvl
Darkvision 60ft
Gore Damage: 1d8
Minotaur Cunning: +4 Int check on maze spells, Always knows North.

*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
============================Barb2/Cru2==================================
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

=========================FEATS=Barb2/Cru2===============================
FEATS:
Free human=Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain) [Req:BAB+1]
lvl1=Combat Reflexes [Req:none]
Barb2=Imp.Trip
lvl3=Power Attack [Req:13Str]

FUTURE FEATS:
-lvl6-)Leadership [Req:lvl6]
-)Knock-Down [Req:15Str,BAB+2,Imp.Trip]
-)Extra Granted Maneuver [Req:Cru1]
-)Stand Still
=========================CLASS=Barb2/Cru2===============================
Barbarian 2: Wolf Totem
2d12HP+con
Saves: +3Fort
BAB: +2
Special: Rage 1/day (+4Str,+4Con,+WillsaveMorale,-2AC, +2hp/lvl. Dur=3+ConMod)
Special: Fast Movement +10ft=40+10=50ft
Special: Improved Trip

Crusader 2:
2d10HP+con
Special: Furious counterstrike (+1 for DamPool1-9)
Special: Steely resolve 5(Delayed Dam Pool)
Special: Indomitable Soul (Will Saves= +Cha Bonus)
Stances Known: 2
1)Iron Guard's Glare [Stance][SWIFT][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) threatened = -4 atk vs allies.
Maneuvers Readied: 5(2)
Maneuvers known: 5
1)Vanguard Strike [Strike][SA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) +4Atk
2)Crusader's Strike [Strike][SA][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) Heal 1d6+1/initlvl Max+5
3)Douse the Flames [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Target cant make AoO 1round
4)Leading the Attack [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) +4Atk
5)Charging Minotaur [Strike][FRA](Stone Dragon) dmg=2d6+StrMod, no AoO from move/bullrush. Pushback 5ft+ w/o need to follow.

==========================FUTURE STUFF===============================
FEATS:
-)Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) [Req:BAB+1]
-)Combat Reflexes [Req:none]
-)Power Attack [Req:13Str]
-)Extra Granted Maneuver [Req:Cru1]
-)Stand Still [Req:13Str, reserve power points 1+]
-lvl6-)Leadership [Req:lvl6]
-brb2-)Combat Expertise ->Improved Trip->Knock-Down[Req:15Str,BAB+2,Imp.Trip] (-C.Exp/I.Trip for Barb2)
=9feats die ik uiteindelijk voor wil gaan.(7 met barb2)
Barb=2
Human=1
=9-3=6
lvl1/3/6/9/12/15=6-6=0

=*=*=Higher Crusader (Ini5)=*=*=
Barb2/Cru4
Stances Known: 2
1)Iron Guard's Glare [Stance][SWIFT][Cru1](Devoted Spirit) threatened = -4 atk vs allies.
2)Thicket of Blades [Stance][SWIFT][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Foes threatened provoke AoO if they move.
Maneuvers Readied: 5(2)
Maneuvers known: 6
1)Douse the Flames [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Target cant make AoO 1round
2)Leading the Attack [Strike][SA][Cru1](White Raven) Ally vs target=+4Morale to atk roles. 1rnd.
3)Charging Minotaur [Strike][FRA](Stone Dragon) dmg=2d6+StrMod, no AoO from move/bullrush. Pushback 5ft+ w/o need to follow.
4)White Raven Tactics [Boost][Swift][Cru3,1WRman](White Raven) Initiative changer
5)Defensive Rebuke [Boost][SWIFT][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Each trg struck=AoO if melees ally. 1rnd.
6)Revitalizing Strike [Strike][SA][Cru3,1DSma](Devoted Spirit) Heal 3d6+1/initlvl Max+10