What are good natural attack DPS builds ?

[djwood]

Only allowed pathfinder stuff

Up to level 8

Multiclassing is allowed

Thank you in advance! :)

[Draco_Lord]

This isn't exactly a build, more just a thing to consider, but Barbarians with the Beast Totem line and Animal Fury would be a solid place to go. It is three natural attacks in addition to pounce. You would need at least 12 levels in Barbarian to get bounce, though.

[Ssalarn]

Only allowed pathfinder stuff


Could you elaborate on what this means? Like, Paizo only, or CRB only, or...?

[Mithril Leaf]

Is Dreamscarred Press on the table? I could give you an extra nasty build if so.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

An alchemist vivisectionist/beastmorph is what springs to mind for me.

[CGNefarious]

This isn't exactly a build, more just a thing to consider, but Barbarians with the Beast Totem line and Animal Fury would be a solid place to go. It is three natural attacks in addition to pounce. You would need at least 12 levels in Barbarian to get bounce, though.

A Primalist Draconic Bloodrager can do the same thing, but with all the natural attacks of a dragon. As a dragon. Is it better? No idea. But it is definitely more fun in my book.

[TiaC]

Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist 8
Buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and a pair of Poisoner's Gloves.
Get as many natural attacks as you can, possibly with Feral Mutagen.
Take the Infusion and Tumor Familiar discoveries.
At the beginning of combat, have your familiar slap you with a Greater Invisibility and another buff of your choice.

[Molosse]

Only allowed pathfinder stuff

Up to level 8

Multiclassing is allowed

Thank you in advance! :)

As an alternative to the post above I'd suggest a 1-5 Draconic Bloodrager into 6-8 Draconic Disciple. Grants you a set of permanent pair of claw and gore attacks while throwing in some decent additions to Natural Armour, Breath Attacks and Str.

[stack]

Ragebred skin-walkers tend to be a good place to start, since they can get hooves and a gore attack from race, which are less common than bite or claws.

[Psyren]

Druid
Synthesist Summoner
Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist
Brown-Fur Transmuter Arcanist
Shapechange Transmuter Wizard
Dragon Disciple Sorcerer
Dragon Disciple Bloodrager
Dragon Disciple Eldritch Scion Magus
Nanite Bloodline Sorcerer

...

There's a lot of options for this

[upho]

Depends on what you mean by "good" and what you mean by "only Pathfinder stuff". If "good" = "as high DPR as possible" and "Pathfinder stuff" = "published content specifically written for PF (ie what you can find on d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home) and whatever other PF books your group has)" you can easily break the game with natural attacks. I mean like easily solo one-shot the tarrasque (CR 25) before level 15.

Without Dreamscarred Press options (especially from Path of War), and if excluding the rather broken Synthesist Summoner, natural attacks won't have quite as silly potential, but they can still be damn powerful. One route to get pounce going earlier than level 10 (when a Beast Totem barbarian gets pounce) is being able to use Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style) and Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) (=pounce) with natural attacks. Then pump the number of natural attacks of the same type (such as claws) you can make in a full attack, along with their damage and the build's charge ability. Excluding 3rd party material, here are the required and some of the better Paizo options for doing that:

Any race that starts with natural attacks (such as claws) and a bonus to Strength. Depending on your class, the best option is probably a Demon-spawn or Oni-spawn tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) with the "Maw" (bite) alternate racial trait.
Any melee class that gives you at least two natural attacks of the same type (such as claws) early and boosts your damage potential. The best option is probably a Bloodrager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager) with the Primalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) archetype and the Abyssal Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal), as this gives you very high damage claws, can boost your damage potential even higher than a Barbarian can, and gives you access to some good buff spells.
Improved Unarmed Strike feat (required)
Weapon Focus (required, I recommend claws as first option, in higher levels you may also retrain it or get it for an additional natural attack type by buying an Opalescent White Pyramid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) ioun stone and a Wayfinder (10,500 gp))
Feral Combat Training feat (required, I recommend claws as first option, perhaps getting it for additional natural attack types in higher levels)
The easiest way to get most of the above required feats is to dip 2 levels into Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk). This also has the advantage of further increasing your natural attack damage and gives you better saves and access to additional great options.
Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) feat (if dipping MoMS Monk)
Horn of the Criosphinx (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat) feat (if dipping Monk, gives you 2 x Str damage bonus on your Pummeling Charge attacks)
Haste spell
Strong Jaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw) spell
Enlarge Person spell (you get the effects for free if going abyssal bloodline bloodrager, but I recommend retraining this for more rage powers once you can afford a wand or other item with the spell instead)
Superstition rage power
Witch Hunter rage power
Come and Get Me rage power (your AC will most likely suck big time anyway, so this is nice to use against melee monsters in higher levels)
Fiend Totem (lesser) rage power (for a gore attack when you cannot charge, or give it Weapon Focus and Feral Combat training and use it on charges along with your claw attacks in higher levels)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (or Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes) magic item (basically required if you play past level 4 or so)
Furious magic weapon special ability if going bloodrager or barbarian (increases the enhancement bonus with +2 when raging)

If going this route, the build will most likely feel a bit overpowered in early levels, just like other natural attackers, but will soon be about on par with a Beast Totem barbarian rather than broken like the Synthesist Summoner. There are of course also several ways to access true pounce in later levels (Monstrous Physique, Beast Shape (druid), Beast Totem Barbarian etc.).

Especially an abyssal bloodline primalist bloodrager can also easily increase combat flexibility with debuffing super scary attacks, for example through some or all of the following options:

Power Attack feat (required for Cornugon Smash below, free abyssal bloodline bonus feat you definitely want early anyway)
Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) feat (free action demoralize (intimidate) attempt on each Power Attack hit)
Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) feat, plus one other Damnation feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats) like Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation) (An enemy you hit at least three times, which you can easily, is now near certain to get panicked (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Panicked) and unable to act, instead of just shaken. Note the alignment shift if you don't want to become evil or lose access to monk stuff)
Intimidating Prowess feat (free abyssal bloodline bonus feat, allows you to easily intimidate basically any creature you'll face without total immunity if you also put a few points in the skill)
Cruel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cruel) magic weapon special ability (if you hit an already shaken/frightened/panicked enemy, which will happen a lot, they also get sickened)


If Path of War is allowed, there's also an option which allows you to remove any enemies' immunity to fear or mind-affecting effects, something only the Antipaladin is able to do if using Paizo-only content.

I hope this gives you a few ideas. Let me know if you'd like to see an example build.

[djwood]

I'm Sorry friends, but I'm kinda new to pathfinder. So I do know the acronyms and what not, but if what I said wasn't clear. What I meant in "pathfinder only" was everything we can find in the books or the main website. Hope this clears some things up!


Could you elaborate on what this means? Like, Paizo only, or CRB only, or...?


Is Dreamscarred Press on the table? I could give you an extra nasty build if so.

Also I heard that feral hunter was a good dip for Natural attack is that true?

[Mithril Leaf]

Courageous magic weapon special ability if going bloodrager or barbarian (gives you even higher bonuses from raging, great synergy with Furious above and Pale Green Prism below)
Pale Green Prism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/pale-green-prism-ioun-stone) ioun stone, especially if going bloodrager or barbarian (great synergy with Courageous and Furious above)


No longer works, Courageous was nerfed to oblivion. Classic "FAQ" Errata. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9tf0)

[upho]

No longer works, Courageous was nerfed to oblivion. Classic "FAQ" Errata. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9tf0)I had completely missed this. Thanks. I'll edit my previous post.

(Though I agree the old benefit was too much for a +1 cost, it was far from a no-brainer choice for weapon wielders. But as expected, the Paizo devs decided to go with their trademark over-nerfing, in this case turning the overpowered into a no-brainer non-choice or noob trap instead of, for example, giving it a more reasonable +2 cost. :smallannoyed:)

[grarrrg]

Synthesist Summoner is the quick/easy/likely most powerful answer.


One route to get pounce going earlier than level 10 (when a Beast Totem barbarian gets pounce) is being able to use Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style) and Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) (=pounce) with natural attacks.

Errata-nerfed: Pummeling-[anything] ONLY works with Unarmed Attacks EVER.


Ragebred skin-walkers tend to be a good place to start, since they can get hooves and a gore attack from race, which are less common than bite or claws.

Well, going "simple", a Ragebred + Barbarian > Beast Totem line can get you Clawx2 + Gore + Bite + Hoofx2 (Gore/Hooves from Ragebred, rest from Rage Powers).

If Ragebred is not an option (being a tertiary race), then Tengu are next best, they have Clawsx2+Bite.
If "main 7" are the only allowed, then Half-Orc can get a Bite attack.
Also, if Ragebred is not an option, then a Helm of the Mammoth Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/helm-of-the-mammoth-lord) will get you a Gore attack.

If you want to get more crazy.
Stick with Ragebred, there are VERY few ways to get Gore/Hoof attacks.
1 level of White Haired Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) for a Hair attack. If you don't plan on doing anything else with your Swift Actions, then Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) will get you some bonus damage.
From here the Vivisectionist Alchemist>Master Chymist route looks solid. Can get Clawsx2+Bite by way of Feral Mutagen, and Sneak Dice are always good for damage. Only tricky part here is whether you rush to Alchemist 10 for Pounce, or take Master Chymist 1 early for the 2/day no-prep-Mutagen.

Barbarian > Beast Totem is good as well, getting Clawsx2 and a Bite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/animal-fury-ex) (although the Bite is more-or-less a Secondary attack).


The only real drawback to Alchemist/Barbarian is that you only have the Claws/Bite while using [class feature].
If you want "always on Claws" then 2 levels of Ranger taking Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast) feat will give you that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

For that last one, a Slayer can also access it.

[upho]

I'm Sorry friends, but I'm kinda new to pathfinder. So I do know the acronyms and what not, but if what I said wasn't clear. What I meant in "pathfinder only" was everything we can find in the books or the main website. Hope this clears some things up!Ok. As I assume that "main website" means Paizo's SRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/), this means basically that all PF content published by Paizo but no 3rd party stuff such as Path of War.

(As a sidenote, once you've played a bit more, I really recommend that your group/DM allows for Dreamscarred Press content as well. Their additions are typically more well-written and balanced than Paizo's stuff, and simply makes the game better IMO.)


Also I heard that feral hunter was a good dip for Natural attack is that true?I don't have any real game experience with the feral hunter yet, but AFAICT it's most important gains are druid wild shape (minus plants and elementals) and especially a much stronger (but limited) Summon Nature's Ally. WS can be great for natural attack combat prowess if you plan to fight in the shape of an animal (great options ranging from cats with pounce all the way to huge "monsters" such as the allosaurus), and both WS and SNA can be awesome for utility and general versatility. But as the stronger SNA doesn't help your natural attacks in any way, I don't really see what makes this preferable to a druid with a focus on WS and SNA (the druid keeps animal companion and also has a more flexible WS and full spellcasting). Though it should be noted that this comparison isn't really fair, as the druid is considered as one of the most powerful PF classes (low Tier 1) in general, mostly because of the versatility of full spellcasting and the melee combat potential of WS and animal companion.

Regardless, I wouldn't recommend this as a dip since the only gains are the level-dependent bonuses from Feral Focus (nearly all of the 1st level bonuses are useless/redundant when you reach 10th level) and the ability to cast one of two known druid/ranger 1st level spells 1/day. So basically, I don't see anything in a feral hunter dip that specifically boosts Natural Attacks, and nothing that makes it a superior dip option. For all natural attack builds I can think of, a dip in for example the fighter, monk, brawler, alchemist, barbarian or bloodrager would be far more beneficial.

[upho]

Errata-nerfed: Pummeling-[anything] ONLY works with Unarmed Attacks EVER.Exactly what in the errata text leads you to conclude that Pummeling Style more limited than any other option with a similar "only unarmed strikes" text in the game? And why do you think this unique limitation was not further emphasized in the errata? Don't you find it more likely the errata says PS works just as the other US-only feats (and therefore cannot ever be used with manufactured weapons but works fine with FCT-ed natural attacks)?

More importantly, according to the FCT text, for the purpose of determining whether a benefit applies to a natural attack with FCT, the natural attack IS an unarmed strike. Even the monk's US damage bonus applies, not to mention that feat benefits otherwise limited to US are specifically mentioned as applicable in the FCT rules text. So RAW, I don't see anything in the errata-ed PS or FCT texts that makes the benefits of PS any less applicable to FCT-ed natural attacks than for example the benefits of Jabbing or Dragon Style (which are fully or partially explicitly limited to US and still applies to FCT-ed natural attacks). In other words, for the errata text to actually bar PS from applying to FCT-ed natural attacks, it would have to mention that explicitly as a specific exception.

EDIT: Never mind the above! And thank you Extra Anchovies for enlightening me! /EDIT


Well, going "simple", a Ragebred + Barbarian > Beast Totem line can get you Clawx2 + Gore + Bite + Hoofx2 (Gore/Hooves from Ragebred, rest from Rage Powers).If you're looking to maximize the DPR potential of this concept, you should probably also look at going primalist bloodrager instead of barbarian. This may give you the same rage powers while also allowing you to cherry-pick the best powers of your bloodline(s) (such as free buff spell effects while raging, melee reach and/or a rage with even higher Str and Con bonuses), plus a few good boost spells and bonus feats. The main drawbacks are a d10 hit die (instead of the barb's d12), rage-cycling and related rage powers having less net gain in higher levels, and fewer and slightly delayed rage powers in general.

[Extra Anchovies]

Exactly what in the errata text leads you to conclude that Pummeling Style more limited than any other option with a similar "only unarmed strikes" text in the game? And why do you think this unique limitation was not further emphasized in the errata? Don't you find it more likely the errata says PS works just as the other US-only feats (and therefore cannot ever be used with manufactured weapons but works fine with FCT-ed natural attacks)?

More importantly, according to the FCT text, for the purpose of determining whether a benefit applies to a natural attack with FCT, the natural attack IS an unarmed strike. Even the monk's US damage bonus applies, not to mention that feat benefits otherwise limited to US are specifically mentioned as applicable in the FCT rules text. So RAW, I don't see anything in the errata-ed PS or FCT texts that makes the benefits of PS any less applicable to FCT-ed natural attacks than for example the benefits of Jabbing or Dragon Style (which are fully or partially explicitly limited to US and still applies to FCT-ed natural attacks). In other words, for the errata text to actually bar PS from applying to FCT-ed natural attacks, it would have to mention that explicitly as a specific exception.

First off, FCT doesn't add unarmed strike damage to natural attack damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat). You're thinking about Beast Strike, which is a 3.5 feat that functions differently.


Change the Pummeling Charge feat’s Benefit section to read “Benefit: You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action. You can use Pummeling Charge in this way only if all of your attacks qualify for using Pummeling Style against a single target.” and change the Normal section to read “Normal: You cannot make a full attack on a charge.”

Change the Pummeling Style feat’s introduction to “Your unarmed strikes weave together in an effortless combo, focusing on the spots you’ve weakened with the last hit.” Change its Benefit section to “Benefit: Whenever you use a full-attack action or f lurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess.”
"X does Y no matter what other abilities you might possess" is the specific rule to end all specific rules. There is literally no getting around it.

[grarrrg]

Exactly what in the errata text leads you to conclude that Pummeling Style more limited than any other option with a similar "only unarmed strikes" text in the game?

What Anchovies said.


If you're looking to maximize the DPR potential of this concept, you should probably also look at going primalist bloodrager instead of barbarian. This may give you the same rage powers while also allowing you to cherry-pick the best powers of your bloodline(s) (such as free buff spell effects while raging, melee reach and/or a rage with even higher Str and Con bonuses), plus a few good boost spells and bonus feats. The main drawbacks are a d10 hit die (instead of the barb's d12), rage-cycling and related rage powers having less net gain in higher levels, and fewer and slightly delayed rage powers in general.

OOOoooOOO Bloodrager yes!
A quick look shows 2 bloodlines with potential
Aberrant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/aberrant): 1st level lets you potentially Stagger the victims of your critical hits. Natural Weapons have pathetic crit range, but you'll have around 6 attacks, which makes this semi-reliable. 4th level gives you +5ft. Reach.
Abyssal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal): 4th level gives you Enlarge Person while raging, which means +Reach, +STR, +Size/damage. Main downside is that the 1st level power is "Claws", which if we go the Beast Totem route they'll make Beast-Claws redundant.

[Extra Anchovies]

OOOoooOOO Bloodrager yes!
A quick look shows 2 bloodlines with potential
Aberrant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/aberrant): 1st level lets you potentially Stagger the victims of your critical hits. Natural Weapons have pathetic crit range, but you'll have around 6 attacks, which makes this semi-reliable. 4th level gives you +5ft. Reach.
Abyssal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal): 4th level gives you Enlarge Person while raging, which means +Reach, +STR, +Size/damage. Main downside is that the 1st level power is "Claws", which if we go the Beast Totem route they'll make Beast-Claws redundant.

Draconic is also a pretty nice bloodline for a natural-attack rager. With Rageshaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/rageshaper), your claws deal 1d6 damage, increasing to 1d8 at 4th, 2d6 at 8th, and 2d6+1d6 energy at 12th. Improved Natural Attack brings you up to a base claw damage of 3d6+1d6 damage before any size increases. The main downside is that you have to give up flight to get pounce via Primalist, but it's flight only while raging so it isn't a huge loss.

ETA: Forgot that Abyssal also gets scaling claws. However, Abyssal also loses out on more by picking up Pounce at level 12; an extra +2/4/6 to strength while raging is really good.

[Necroticplague]

I always went for Natural Attack alchemist for my DPS builds. Not sure if its the best, but things can get pretty brutal. At level 8, you lack access to most of the mutagen-enhancing Discoveries, but you still have access to the most important one: Feral Mutagen. Ragebred have 3 natural attacks to start off with (hoof, hoof, gore). So a ragebred who slams down a Feral Mutagen will have a decent 6 attacks. Take the Vivisector archetype for SA to add damage (make sure you get a flanking buddy). Use the Ragebred's built-in SLA to qualify for Arcane Strike for some bonus damage. Once you pick up Multiattack and IUS, you can throw punches into the mix. If you've picked up Tentacle or Vestigial Arm, you can throw in TWF (weapon and unarmed strike)+multiattacking (natural weapons) for a veritable fountain of attacks. Your SA should do the rest. Pick up a Amulet of Mighty Fist of Speed ASAP.

[Extra Anchovies]

I always went for Natural Attack alchemist for my DPS builds. Not sure if its the best, but things can get pretty brutal. At level 8, you lack access to most of the mutagen-enhancing Discoveries, but you still have access to the most important one: Feral Mutagen. Ragebred have 3 natural attacks to start off with (hoof, hoof, gore). So a ragebred who slams down a Feral Mutagen will have a decent 6 attacks. Take the Vivisector archetype for SA to add damage (make sure you get a flanking buddy). Use the Ragebred's built-in SLA to qualify for Arcane Strike for some bonus damage. Once you pick up Multiattack and IUS, you can throw punches into the mix. If you've picked up Tentacle or Vestigial Arm, you can throw in TWF (weapon and unarmed strike)+multiattacking (natural weapons) for a veritable fountain of attacks. Your SA should do the rest. Pick up a Amulet of Mighty Fist of Speed ASAP.

Regarding UAS + natural attacks: aren't you unable to make natural attacks with whatever limb(s) you used for your unarmed strikes that round? I think you'd have to give up a claw or hoof attack for what you're doing. Still a net gain, since most of your damage is from sneak attack and you get more attacks, but it's worth noting (if I am correct, that is).

[upho]

First off, FCT doesn't add unarmed strike damage to natural attack damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat). You're thinking about Beast Strike, which is a 3.5 feat that functions differently.Actually, I didn't think of Beast Strike (didn't even remember the feat existed until you mentioned it). But please note that I don't believe FCT allows me to "add US damage", only that it allows me to add damage bonuses (or any other beneficial effect) otherwise limited to US. I'm simply reading the FCT text here, specifically (my emphasis):

"While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."

Does the monk's US damage bonus augment an US? Since my answer to this is "yes", by RAW this damage bonus also applies to my FCT-ed natural attack. Meaning I treat my initial NA damage die (such as 1d6) as my non-monk US damage die and increase it according to the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature if I take levels in monk. As the above quoted text does not limit what kind of effects (or their source) that apply in any way beyond "augment an unarmed strike", I don't think there's anything in the game (other than the errata-ed Pummeling feats) that augments an US and does not apply to an FCT-ed natural attack. I believe any such option would require text similar to the one used by the errata-ed Pummeling feats.

If I'm doing it wrong, please tell me where and why!


"X does Y no matter what other abilities you might possess" is the specific rule to end all specific rules. There is literally no getting around it.Oh my, now I get it, thanks. And I totally agree with you and grarrrg, this definitely means only US, EVER. Never seen this before, the only thing mentioned on Paizo's FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9sfs) is the old "You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes" addendum and the d20pfsrd text has not been updated.

(Out of curiosity, did they also errata the actual problem with PS, the absolutely horrible "if any of your attacks crits, all of the attacks crit"-part? Since you can make several more US attack rolls in a full attack than you can make FCT-ed NA attack rolls, especially when limited to Paizo material, using NA with PS is a complete non-issue in comparison to the silly high crit probability/damage potential of using US with PS. If they didn't change this, the errata does nothing to rein in broken US charger builds and only servers to widen the gap to any other Paizo melee damage builds. If so, I find it sad they have proven their poor knowledge of their own system yet again.)

[Necroticplague]

Regarding UAS + natural attacks: aren't you unable to make natural attacks with whatever limb(s) you used for your unarmed strikes that round? I think you'd have to give up a claw or hoof attack for what you're doing. Still a net gain, since most of your damage is from sneak attack and you get more attacks, but it's worth noting (if I am correct, that is).

A UAS can be made with any part of your body, as far as I know, so that's not much of a problem. The rules seems to support this, as the relevent text says
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. And an unarmed strike is not clutched in any limb, thus no natural attacks are needing to have foregone.

[Necroticplague]

(Out of curiosity, did they also errata the actual problem with PS, the absolutely horrible "if any of your attacks crits, all of the attacks crit"-part? Since you can make several more US attack rolls in a full attack than you can make FCT-ed NA attack rolls, especially when limited to Paizo material, using NA with PS is a complete non-issue in comparison to the silly high crit probability/damage potential of using US with PS. If they didn't change this, the errata does nothing to rein in broken US charger builds and only servers to widen the gap to any other Paizo melee damage builds. If so, I find it sad they have proven their poor knowledge of their own system yet again.)

Yes, they did, by making it so that Pummeling Style is just Unarmed Cluster Shot, instead of Unarmed Dead Shot.

[Talieth]

Maybe not optimized, but there are a few other options for natural attacks :

- Aasimar have their special feat (Angelic Blood -> Angelic Flesh (steel) -> Angel Wings -> Metallic Wings) that give you +1 natural armor, permanent (if slow) flight, 2 secondary wings attack.

- human and half-human (half-elf/orc, aasimar with scion of humanity) can get the racial heritage (kobold) feat and the tail terror feat that give a secondary tail attack.

- Lunar Oracle have the Gift of Claw and Horn revelation that give a claw/bite/Gore attack. These get a +1 enchantment bonus every 5 levels. Choose one at low level each time you use it, and choose 2 from lvl11 on.
Prophetic Armor revelation let you use your charisma for AC and reflex saves.
Primal Companion give you a druid animal companion (druid lvel = oracle level) limited to bear, wolf, tiger, boar, crocodile, shark.
With your full divine spellcasting you can choose to buff your accuracy, but you may have to use still metamagic in order to be sure to cast your spells when you really want them.


Using all the above, you can have an aasimar lunar oracle with kobold ancestry and a tiger animal companion. By level 13 you would have 7 natural attack (1 bite, 2 claws, 1 gore, 1 tail, 2 wings)
You could dump dexterity (and pump charisma) and still cast level 6 spells ...

Maybe not the most optimized, but still potent. And and important thing is that a build like this is playable from the beginning ...

[upho]

What Anchovies said.Sorry for my ignorance!

OOOoooOOO Bloodrager yes!
A quick look shows 2 bloodlines with potential
Aberrant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/aberrant): 1st level lets you potentially Stagger the victims of your critical hits. Natural Weapons have pathetic crit range, but you'll have around 6 attacks, which makes this semi-reliable. 4th level gives you +5ft. Reach.
Abyssal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/3rd-party---bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal): 4th level gives you Enlarge Person while raging, which means +Reach, +STR, +Size/damage. Main downside is that the 1st level power is "Claws", which if we go the Beast Totem route they'll make Beast-Claws redundant.Well, there's also the option to retrain your abyssal claws into rage powers once you hit 4th level. Re the Demonic Bulk "enlarge person" power, it's nice that it happens automatically and doesn't require a full-round action like the spell does, but it's otherwise an effect offered by several other options, including the bloodrager's own spell list. As such, I'd replace it with rage powers as soon as I can afford and use the spell in a wand instead. Actually, if going the Beast Totem route, I think the only abyssal bloodline powers really worth keeping are the rage boosters. But they are indeed damn good for an extreme DPR build. Not to mention the childish but undeniably strong lure of pulling up trees and throwing rocks like Obelix, having biceps with a mass greater than the party's wizard, and generally being "the strongest, most anabolic muscle powerhouse bad-ass monstah PC EVAR!!!"*
*Synths excluded, but they're cheating cheesy casters anyways...
:smallbiggrin:

I'd also take a long look at the awesome Arcane Bloodline, which has great bonus feats, spells and powers, and no redundancies when combined with the beast totem rage powers. Though it doesn't offer quite as silly high DPR potential as abyssal, it gives a lot more flexibility and a stronger build overall IMO. I think my main problem would be choosing which bloodline powers to sacrifice, since they're all really good... And though Aberrant isn't bad, having better bonus feats and spells than Abyssal, I believe it's ultimately more suitable for an AoO/melee BFC specialist using a reach weapon. Draconic could be interesting, especially if topped off with Dragon Disciple, though it's not a particularly strong bloodline otherwise, and also includes quite a few redundancies with Beast Totem rage powers.

And though probably not worth the trade-offs, there's of course also the option of going Crossblooded on top of the Primalist archetype...

[upho]

Yes, they did, by making it so that Pummeling Style is just Unarmed Cluster Shot, instead of Unarmed Dead Shot.Wow, exactly what I was asking for! They actually did a (mostly) good and well-deserved errata that didn't nerf the option into uselessness. I'm impressed. Though I still think the unique exclusion of anything but US was uncalled for.

[grarrrg]

Well, there's also the option to retrain your abyssal claws into rage powers once you hit 4th level...
And though probably not worth the trade-offs, there's of course also the option of going Crossblooded on top of the Primalist archetype...

I'm not entirely sure it'd be legal to retrain your 1st level bloodline power.
"Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement."
"At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can "

I can see a reasonable argument in favor of allowing it, but by the book I'm inclined to say you're stuck with your 1st level power.
Crossblooded could definitely help with the problem though.


What about VMC's? Anything worthwhile there?
Barbarian VMC is out, as Bloodrager stuff only works during Bloodrage, and Rage stuff only works during Rage-Rage.
Rogue VMC could add some Sneak dice, which can get pretty crazy with Natural Attacks.
Given that Bloodragers need CHA anyway, I think Eldritch Heritage would be superior to Sorcerer VMC (Orc for +STR mayhaps?)
Oracle VMC could grant a (scaling) Bite attack by way of Curse. Given that we'd likely already have Claw/Gore/Hoof, are there are truly worthwhile Revelations?

[VexingFool]

I'm not entirely sure it'd be legal to retrain your 1st level bloodline power.
"Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement."
"At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can "

I can see a reasonable argument in favor of allowing it, but by the book I'm inclined to say you're stuck with your 1st level power.
Crossblooded could definitely help with the problem though.
Bloodline Familiar.

[Psyren]

Bloodline Familiar.

I always forget that :smallsmile: Yes, that would let you get rid of a weak/useless 1st-level power.

Note that even if you have an unlisted bloodline, and the GM isn't willing to devise an ability for yours, by RAW you can still make this trade - it'll just be a regular familiar without a bloodline ability.

[upho]

I'm not entirely sure it'd be legal to retrain your 1st level bloodline power.
"Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement."
"At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can "

I can see a reasonable argument in favor of allowing it, but by the book I'm inclined to say you're stuck with your 1st level power.
Crossblooded could definitely help with the problem though.Damn, you're right, it wouldn't fly RAW. And yeah, crossblooded could solve that issue, but the trade-off is nasty: -2 Will when not raging and -4 Will when raging compared to non-crossblooded. But on the other hand, it sure would make being in the same party as the demonic food-processor-style killer a lot more exciting - will s/he simply refuse to fight, one-shot you, or one-shot the charming/dominating enemy? :smalltongue:

You can eventually gain back all of the lost Will by simply combining Abyssal with the Destined Bloodline and grab the scaling defense-boosting 4th level power, which IIRC also happens to help with the Abyssal's abysmal (pun intended) AC.

*checking up Destined*

No, scratch that. Destined's 4th level defensive power is pretty perfect to help mitigate the Crossblooded Abyssal's weak AC and Will, but the 1st level power (which would replace the Abyssal's claws) is a big attack boost a few times/day, bound to be largely wasted on an Abyssal natural attacker.

Hmmm... Is there another efficient way of boosting Will, besides the usual basic traits and feats (you can grab Iron Will as a bonus feat at 6th)? Does the piggy-guy have any racial stuff that could help out?
If so, going crossblooded to become an "Angry Zombie Demon" (abyssal/undead) would net the fitting scary charge 1st level power (target shaken, no save) and a few good high level defensive powers. Or perhaps a "Mad Paradox" (abyssal/angelic) for good-aligned attacks and an always-on damage boost vs. evil at 1st level, and a high level power which counters the AC and Will penalties when fighting evil.


What about VMC's? Anything worthwhile there?
Barbarian VMC is out, as Bloodrager stuff only works during Bloodrage, and Rage stuff only works during Rage-Rage.
Rogue VMC could add some Sneak dice, which can get pretty crazy with Natural Attacks.Rogue VMC appears to be a poor option to me - trapfinding (1st level) is only interesting if you're the party scout and can pretty much be replaced by a trait anyways, Uncanny Dodge (15th) and Impr. Uncanny Dodge (19th) are wasted as the bloodrager has both, and Evasion (11th) is likely forgettable for the typical low Ref bloodrager. Seems you'd basically trade half your regular feat slots for a rather pathetic average SA damage of 3.5 - 14.


Given that Bloodragers need CHA anyway, I think Eldritch Heritage would be superior to Sorcerer VMC (Orc for +STR mayhaps?)Orc Eldritch Heritage would be pretty damn insane! If investing fully in all four related feats, a raging enlarged orc (race) abyssal could end up with Str 64! :smalleek: (18 base, +4 race, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 belt, +8 mighty bloodrage, +6 abyssal bloodrage, +6 inherent orc bloodline, +6 size orc bloodline.)

EDIT: No, that should be Str 59 and no tome as the inherent bonuses don't stack. Still pretty insane though. Thanks Mithril Leaf! /EDIT

But even if you save up on Str-boosting items, level increases etc (rather than going total Str overkill) with the orc bloodline bonuses, I'm not sure it's worth the four feat slots. Would be better for weapon wielders as they actually gain a lot from the increased attack bonus as well as the extra damage.

During the ACG playtest I made (and DM:ed for) a similar natural attack "double-demon" bloodrager combining an abyssal with EH (abyssal) (found here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfbm?Bloodrager-Level-11-Abyssal-Abby-the-Curse#1)), and I seem to recall something was added/changed in the final released bloodrager version that made EH problematic for bloodragers. But now I can't find anything beyond the paragraph in the bloodline feature saying you must choose the same bloodline if you MC, which doesn't affect EH in any way as it doesn't give you sorcerer levels. Are there any issues with EH for a bloodrager, or am I simply being my usual confused senile self?


Oracle VMC could grant a (scaling) Bite attack by way of Curse. Given that we'd likely already have Claw/Gore/Hoof, are there are truly worthwhile Revelations?Nothing worth the 5 feat cost AFAICT, especially with the gimped bonuses granted by the VMC versions. But I really shouldn't comment in the first place, the oracle is still a bit of a blind spot in my rules-fu...

And before I forget about it again: every natural attacker should of course get a Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fleshwarped-scorpion-s-tail) attached to their rear ASAP! Grants rare primary sting attack, with built-in poison a few times/day.

[Mithril Leaf]

Orc Eldritch Heritage would be pretty damn insane! If investing fully in all four related feats, a raging enlarged orc (race) abyssal could end up with Str 64! :smalleek: (18 base, +4 race, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 belt, +8 mighty bloodrage, +6 abyssal bloodrage, +6 inherent orc bloodline, +6 size orc bloodline.)


Remind me what type of bonus the Tome gives you again friend?

[upho]

Remind me what type of bonus the Tome gives you again friend?Oh, seems my brain's poor background processes decided to treat the inherent bonus as if it was a racial bonus for some reason. :smallredface: Thanks. So that should be Str 59, not 64. I'll edit.

[CGNefarious]

59 Str is still pretty impressive. And it looks to be pretty doable as well. Might have to try it sometime.

[grarrrg]

Rogue VMC appears to be a poor option to me - trapfinding (1st level) is only interesting if you're the party scout and can pretty much be replaced by a trait anyways, Uncanny Dodge (15th) and Impr. Uncanny Dodge (19th) are wasted as the bloodrager has both, and Evasion (11th) is likely forgettable for the typical low Ref bloodrager. Seems you'd basically trade half your regular feat slots for a rather pathetic average SA damage of 3.5 - 14.

That's why we take more than 1 archetype!
Trade away Uncanny Dodge for something else useful (and then get Uncanny Dodge back anyway!)

Blood Conduit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/blood-conduit) has the right trades, but...doesn't seem at all useful for this.
Bloodrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/bloodrider) looks fun. Nothing to really synergize with natural attacks, but getting a Mount and being able to semi-buff the mount is solid.
Spelleater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/spelleater) drops Uncanny and Damage Reduction but grants Fast Healing while Raging, and the ability to spend Swift Actions+Slots for healing. Decent.
Steelblood (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/steelblood) has a variety of trades. None really jump out at me.

Yeah, VMC-Rogue looks kinda "meh" overall.

[upho]

59 Str is still pretty impressive. And it looks to be pretty doable as well. Might have to try it sometime.Well, doable for sure, but I think it's mostly impressive as a high number on your character sheet. In actual play, an all-out Str orc abyssal bloodrager would of course be capable of dealing massive amounts of damage, especially with a big two-handed weapon, and could easily be scary as hell (Intimidating Prowess), but that would most likely also be pretty much all the character can do. And a wereboar-kin natural attacker probably ends up capable of dealing even more damage with its many (5 primary + 2 secondary) accurate attacks, despite having less Str.


That's why we take more than 1 archetype!
Trade away Uncanny Dodge for something else useful (and then get Uncanny Dodge back anyway!)

Blood Conduit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/blood-conduit) has the right trades, but...doesn't seem at all useful for this.
Bloodrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/bloodrider) looks fun. Nothing to really synergize with natural attacks, but getting a Mount and being able to semi-buff the mount is solid.
Spelleater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/spelleater) drops Uncanny and Damage Reduction but grants Fast Healing while Raging, and the ability to spend Swift Actions+Slots for healing. Decent.
Steelblood (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/steelblood) has a variety of trades. None really jump out at me.

Yeah, VMC-Rogue looks kinda "meh" overall.Hmm... With some investments in mounted combat (most notably the two Monstrous Mount feats, Boon Companion and Ferocious Mount rage power), a bloodrider could ride a flying griffon with three primary natural attacks and pounce, the mount also receiving the bloodrage bonuses.

Does the Blood Bond feature work with bloodline (Sp) powers? And what about the "free" spell effect of greater/mighty bloodrage?

Seems to me they all apply, as they cause the bloodrager to be "affected by a spell or spell-like ability" and at least their "actual" range is always personal, even though not all of the options use that exact term. But I think the RAW is open for other interpretations. If it does work, the mount could also receive for example Arcane's awesome buffs like haste, blur or displacement at no additional cost, which could mitigate the typically poor durability of mounts in higher levels.

Though I agree none of the bloodrider abilities, beyond say using a wand of strong jaw, have any immediate synergies with the bloodrager's natural attacks, the added damage output potential alone makes it a very promising option for a DPR build IMO. At least if the components needed to make the concept fly (literally) can be squeezed into a build without sacrificing anything vital. But I also think bloodrider would actually make rogue (or any other) VMC even less attractive, since the additional feats required to make mounted combat worthwhile would make the VMC cost too great.

I think we need at least a build outline at this point. Anyone feeling like whipping up a wereboar-kin primalist (beast totem) abyssal? natural attack DPR bloodrager?