Crossbow Sniper - Seems okay but not sure

[TheNivMizzet]

I have a pathfinder game coming up soon and its supposed to be an amalgamation of Hellboy, Kingsman and X-Men which I've taken to assume we'll be hunting supernatural horrors such as vampires and werewolves, since magic is supposed to be rare enough its government sanctioned or nothing. I recently read a post about things not allowed in RPG games and read "Any weapon which can stake a vampire hiding behind an engine block is vetoed." and wanted to do that with a crossbow.
We're started at level 7, with access to all pathfinder sources and 3.5 material within reason and with GM approval. My current build is:
Fetchling
Fighter 7 (Crossbowman Archetype)
Str: 12
Dex: 22 (Dex boosting gloves)
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 7
Cha: 16

Feats:
Level 1: Point-blank Shot
Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Level 3: Rapid Reload
Bonus Feat: Crossbow Mastery
Level 5: Deadly Aim
Bonus Feat: Vital Strike
Level 7: Reckless Aim

Weapons:
+1 Large Heavy Crossbow
Hand Crossbow
Cold Iron Longsword
Silvered Dagger
Wand of Gravity Bow

Gear:
Bracer's of Falcon Aim
+2 Gloves of Dexterity

With the wand active on my bow I should be able to get a single shot at 6d8+9 (vital strike) or rapid shot for three attacks at +13/+13/+8, netting 3d8+9 with each attack.
Are there any more feasible ways of increasing my damage, either in a single shot or a volley?

[rockdeworld]

I think the bit about hitting a vampire behind an engine block wasn't made with the idea of a high magic setting in mind. D&D/PF can totally do that.

Have you considered getting the party wizard to cast Minor Creation to fill a bucket with Deathblade poison before entering a dungeon/dangerous area, then coating all your crossbow bolts in the poison?

If your party doesn't have a wizard, there's also Wands of Minor Creation.

[TheNivMizzet]

I'm not sure Minor Creation can be used in that fashion, and I would rather take them out in a single shot then leave them staggering around hoping someone has a vial of antitoxin on hand.

[Sayt]

With a combination of 3.5 and PF material, you can actually make a competent Crossbowman, it's quite refreshing. The key parts are getting Crossbow Mastery (Which I see you have) and Crossbow Sniper.

I also reccommend you pick up a Great Crossbow from Races of Stone (2d8 dmg, 18-20) (Would require Exotic proficiency) You can also dip 2 levels into Deepwood Sniper (3.5 PRC) to get a critical multiplier improvement and keen on your crossbow, but this would make your Falon's Aim bracers redundant.

Vital Strike is a trap: Doubly so if you already have crossbow master: You're statistically going to lose damage potential in a round in which you vital strike instead of rapid shot. It can be passable with Mythic Vital Strike, but even that falls behind Mythic Volley shooting.

The Crossbowman archetype also isn't terribly good: you'd probably be better off as a Regular Fighter, a Weapon Master Fighter, or maybe a Ranger or Slayer.

Going ranger means you don't need to UMD your wand, and can cast it au naturale a few times a day. it also opens you up to the Instant Enemy spell, for huge amounts of bonus accuray if you pick your favoured enemies consistently. You don't get as many bonus feats, but you get prerequisite free bonus feats, so you can get Crossbow Mastery at 6 without having to pick up Rapid Reload.

Looking ahead, good 3.5 stuff to grab for your crossbowman would be a Dragonbone crossbow (Larger range increment), a Gnome Crossbow Sight (Treat enemies as two range increments closer) and the Splitting weapon quality (Literally doubles your damage output)

[TheNivMizzet]

Thanks for the shout out on the Vital Strike, I thought it seemed dodgy, but put it down to trading accuracy for damage, but I guess three attacks would be better overall. I'll have a word to the GM over taking Crossbow Sniper since that added range for sneak attack will come in handy given my plan to take levels in rogue next. I'll have to look up the stats for the Great Crossbow, its increased damage die would really help when it comes to ratcheting up the damage with Gravity Bow.
I can see the benefits of going straight fighter over crossbowman, since all of the crossbowman bonuses key off taking readied actions over full attacks.
Is ranger really that much more powerful than fighter in terms of crossbow use? I was planning on taking it first but it seemed redundant in places since I need so many feats to make it work to its maximum capabilities.

[Jowgen]

Other 3.5 materials to consider:

Hit'n'Run ACF from DotU can get Dex to damage within... 30 ft?... if target flat footed.

More impressively, the Deadeye feat from Dragon compendium can add Dex to Damage once more.

The best thing though, if you can swing it, is the Targeteer fighter from Dragon 310. Can do a whole bunch of mean stuff, including adding Dex to Damage-again (might need some wiggle to work with crossbow specifically), so it might be worth looking into getting it adapted.

Combining all this with Crossbow Sniper can -in ideal situations- net you 3.5 dex to damage. :smallbiggrin:

Lastly, if you check my sig'd list of denying X to AC, there is a special crossbow bolt from Dragon-mag somewhere that lets you ignore some hard-to-ignore stuff. I vaguely recall it being quite good. EDIT: I checked. 650 gp so you can ignore, deflection, cover, shield and armor bonus with the bolt. For when you absolutely positively have to hit that flat-footed guy. Or that vampire behind the engine.

[Sayt]

Thanks for the shout out on the Vital Strike, I thought it seemed dodgy, but put it down to trading accuracy for damage, but I guess three attacks would be better overall. I'll have a word to the GM over taking Crossbow Sniper since that added range for sneak attack will come in handy given my plan to take levels in rogue next. I'll have to look up the stats for the Great Crossbow, its increased damage die would really help when it comes to ratcheting up the damage with Gravity Bow.
I can see the benefits of going straight fighter over crossbowman, since all of the crossbowman bonuses key off taking readied actions over full attacks.
Is ranger really that much more powerful than fighter in terms of crossbow use? I was planning on taking it first but it seemed redundant in places since I need so many feats to make it work to its maximum capabilities.

Well, here's a feat progression for a Ranger or Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer) crossbowman with the Crossbow Favoured Combat Style.
1: PBS
H: Precise Shot
R2: Rapid Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Crossbow Sniper
R6: Crossbow mastery
7: Reckless Aim

It can do everything the fighter can, it has 1 less hit and damage all the time from weapon training, but +4 to hit and damage against favoured enemies(A slayer only gets +2 and skill bonuses, but they also get to designate a foe as a Favoured enemy as a swift action), and the Ranger/Slayer has 28 more skill ranks, high dex means the comparative armour proficiencies are irrelevant.

If stealthy Shootist is your theme, the Slayer(Sniper) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo---slayer-archetypes/sniper) Archetype may serve you well: Your opening shot against an unaware target deals your level in damage as well as sneak attack, and your SA against unaware enemies ignores the normal 30ft restriction.

I actually really like Slayers, unless you really need tonnes and tonnes of feats, they're basically fighter+.


Other 3.5 materials to consider:

Hit'n'Run ACF from DotU can get Dex to damage within... 30 ft?... if target flat footed.

More impressively, the Deadeye feat from Dragon compendium can add Dex to Damage once more.

The best thing though, if you can swing it, is the Targeteer fighter from Dragon 310. Can do a whole bunch of mean stuff, including adding Dex to Damage-again (might need some wiggle to work with crossbow specifically), so it might be worth looking into getting it adapted.

Combining all this with Crossbow Sniper can -in ideal situations- net you 3.5 dex to damage. :smallbiggrin:

Lastly, if you check my sig'd list of denying X to AC, there is a special crossbow bolt from Dragon-mag somewhere that lets you ignore some hard-to-ignore stuff. I vaguely recall it being quite good. EDIT: I checked. 650 gp so you can ignore, deflection, cover, shield and armor bonus with the bolt. For when you absolutely positively have to hit that flat-footed guy. Or that vampire behind the engine.

Unfortunately, Paizo FAQ has decreed that untyped ability bonuses to things are actually considered 'typed', so Dex to damage+dex to damage doesn't stack (Although Dex to damage+(Insight=dex mod to damage) does stack.)

[rockdeworld]

I'm not sure Minor Creation can be used in that fashion, and I would rather take them out in a single shot then leave them staggering around hoping someone has a vial of antitoxin on hand.
I can provide RAW for why it works, but in any case the reason for poison on volley shots is that each 2 Con damage you can do effectively deals their HD in damage. That was also the reason for getting a 3.5 Wounding weapon, though PF nerfed that ability to the point of uselessness.

[VexingFool]

I'd go Gunslinger(Bolt Ace)-5/Ranger-2.

With the new errata on Bolt Ace you get proficiency with ALL crossbows, so you could then use the Great Crossbow like Sayt suggested without having to spend a feat for it. Bolt Ace - 5 gets you Dex to damage on every shot and increased crit multiplier. If you go this route I'd ditch the Bracers of Falcon's Aim and get a Keen Great Crossbow so you would have 15-20/x3 crit range. Several of the deeds could come in handy like being able to hit touch AC or ignore cover and concealment as well as not provoking AoO.

Ranger will get you some needed feats and the ability to use your wand of gravity bow without UMD as well as a favored enemy that would work well in the campaign.

I'd switch your CHA and WIS, this will get you a little more grit, allow you to cast spells if you continue in ranger and also get your will save out of the negatives. If you go with the Keen Great Crossbow you should have no problem recharging your Grit pool but may want to consider Extra Grit feat if you find yourself using your deeds alot.

[Jowgen]

Unfortunately, Paizo FAQ has decreed that untyped ability bonuses to things are actually considered 'typed', so Dex to damage+dex to damage doesn't stack (Although Dex to damage+(Insight=dex mod to damage) does stack.)

Dastards. Well, the Targeteer bonus is meant to replace strenght (hence the need for wiggle to get it on a crossbow), and doesn't work on crit-immunes (RAI probably precision, but no range limit).

Dead-eye has the same range and precision-limit, but doesn't replace anything.

Hit 'n Run ACF bonus is compentence, but only works within 30 ft an against flat-footed.

Crossbow-sniper is untyped, but doesn't have a crit-immune limit.

I'd say, you should be able to stack at least 3/4 here. Hit'n' run is a given, Crossbow Sniper is untyped, and while Deadeye is untyped it is clearly meant to be precision damage, unlike crossbow sniper. So 2.5 Dex to damage at least I thinks.

[Sian]

Ain't Great Crossbow a great trap? ... without Rapid Reload it costs a fullround action to reload, with Rapid Reload it costs a Move action ...

Light Crossbow is generally acknowledged to be the best crossbow

[Sayt]

Ain't Great Crossbow a great trap? ... without Rapid Reload it costs a fullround action to reload, with Rapid Reload it costs a Move action ...

Light Crossbow is generally acknowledged to be the best crossbow

Pathfinder feat Crossbow Mastery reduces all crossbow reload times to a free action.

[Sian]

Pathfinder feat Crossbow Mastery reduces all crossbow reload times to a free action.

Ah okay ... fair enough ... don't mind my babbling

[Unbodied]

Have you considered a Marksman with Sniper Style?

[marphod]

Ain't Great Crossbow a great trap? ... without Rapid Reload it costs a fullround action to reload, with Rapid Reload it costs a Move action ...

Light Crossbow is generally acknowledged to be the best crossbow

If you have Rapid Reload, Crossbow Mastery also removes the AoO from reloading. Given the Great Crossbow build doesn't have it, though, don't use it when threatened.

(I'm also certain there are 3rd party weapon enchantments to make reloading free/near free.)

[TheNivMizzet]

I think I'll follow the slayer idea coupled with the Great Crossbow. I'm sure I'll already be the top of the DPS chart with that, without stacking dex to damage 2.5 times over.
At the moment it looks like 4d6+9*3 a turn (Great Crossbow + Gravity Bow).
Any suggestions on ways to stealth after a shot sooner than level 10, when you get the Advanced Rogue Talent.

[Sayt]

Not really. Furthermore, the Slayer/Sniper Archetype specifically lists guys you've just shot as "Aware enough to not work twice", so your best defense after initiating combat is to unreachable, rather than unfindable.

Having melee guys in the way, being on a magic carpet or flying broomstick is a good way to achieve this against some foes, but expensive.